Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Senko on <12-20-15/0758:00>
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I'm thinking either a shotgun or submachine gun/assault rifle to allow you to spray an area as a distraction without needing high accuracy but I'm curious with the current books (no need for missions legal) what do people in a skill/weapon/mods both in character creation and later when you can spend a bit more? At the moment I'm leaning towards either a shotgun (Remington 990), a machine pistol (Ares crusader II) or an assault rifle (FN HAR).
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Longarms.
Mages have the ability to increase accuracy - making shotguns amazing weapons in their hands.
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Honestly? I normally go with a light or heavy pistol and then a melee weapon for my mages. Sometimes archery, if it fits the character better. While a mage with an assault rifle works fine, I typically don't see the need for it. If you're looking for a way to keep people's heads down while you cast, there are better ways than big weapons that most corpsec will notice (concealing an assault rifle isn't exactly easy). Two keys: spell selection and smoke grenades. With the proper spells, you ARE the weapon. With smoke grenades and astral perception, you can see the targets, but they can't see you. Let me put it this way. When corpsec looks for targets, they start with the mage and the people with the heaviest weapons. You're starting to look like both. And pistols are easier to get through security, more likely to be legal in a jurisdiction, and don't draw nearly the attention larger weapons do. Also, they're much more common, since there are a few million Predator Vs out there, and they're cheap, meaning you can wipe 'em and toss 'em if you need to.
IMO, spray and pray is crap, and a waste of ammo. Suppressive fire, on the other hand, is a great tactic, that works best for a Face, Drone, or secondary gunman, not someone who has other options to bring to the table, like a mage. The Mass Agony spell alone is enough to ruin a whole crew's day. Fireball is the quintessential mage's "Go Away" card. Improved Invisibility means you can slip around enemies, and put two to the side of their head. Even without magic, there's a reason why soldiers use controlled bursts rather than spray and pray. You won't hit a damn thing.
So my recommendations for skill/gun for a mage would be: Pistols (Specialization in either Tasers or Semi-automatics) with either a taser of choice or Predator V (clips of APDS and SnS to switch as needed), Unarmed combat (Knucks or shock hand), or Blades (Katana). Again, this follows the line of reasoning that when you are a walking restricted weapon (being a mage) and can summon fire support (spirits) it is best to consider what personal weapons are easy to get through checkpoints with minimal police interest. And automatic weapons and shotguns draw far more interest than a sprawl dweller with one of the most ubiquitous handguns on the market. Same as when you're driving with a load of novacoke in your car. The fewer reasons you give the cops to take interest in your vehicle, the better.
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I did orignally (first making a mage) go with a pistol nicely common, concealable and the like but I had a lot of people tell me it was no good for a mage as you were never going to do any damage with it and you'd be better off going with an AOE attacking weapon to reduce the defense dice prior to the samurai attacking. Might need to reconsider that again. Increasing accuracy on shotguns should work just as well on a pistol and as Mirikon said instead of shooting I can be boosting attributes, casting chaotic world and the like. Of course in pistols I'm more tempted to the Colt Government 2066
Haven't seen mass agony before might need to post in character creation about what spells are currently recommended.
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Magic fingers and rating 10 bow. 12p -3 ap makes me happy.
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How do you think you can sneak a bow? :o
I think machine pstols or smg are the best choice out there. If you really want to toast someone, well, there's lightning bolt or other combat spells. If you do not want to risk the drain, spray suppressive fire for the next attack of the sam or the gunbunny adept.
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Take Pistols and get a taser. You don't even need a whole hell of a lot in the skill since you're a mage rather than a shooter.
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Take Pistols and get a taser.
Did not see that one coming, what with the user name and all =)
I've basically heard it a couple ways. Either the Mage should get a decent Pistol, like a Predator with APDS, and then skill it up enough to be useful. That way they have a Drain free means of applying damage on the battlefield, and aren't forced to rely on casting spells til their ears bleed.
Or they go for something with side effects, which don't rely as heavily on skill to use. Like a taser which will hit a lot more often and the Electric side effects are nice. Or get a Machine Pistol / SMG and just do Suppressing Fire every time.
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Automatics, take a Machine Pistol. Small, concealable, generally only Restricted, and that Steyr TMP with a few modifications lets you bullet-hose some suppressive fire when needed. It has just enough firepower to take care of normal business when drek hits the fan, and despite some folks going 'just use lots of magic,' that's not always a good idea. Carrying a gun and not dressing up like a spellslinger means you won't hear 'geek the mage first!' At least, not until you bust the magic out. It is also a good way to avoid Drain when unnecessary, is just as legal as most normal pistols (the Sixth World is a tough place, Machine Pistols are legal to own) and can make people checking you for weapons think they found everything... Until you Fireball them.
All you'd 'need' in the skill is 3-6 points, along with an acceptable Agility and perhaps a Specialization. Throw in some gear bonuses and you'll have around 10 dice, which is plenty to deal with street scum and lay down suppressive fire against anything more threatening when magic isn't the answer. If you're magically enhancing yourself for your backup weapon you may want to reconsider, though.
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As a mage, you presumably don't want to throw too much karma into combat-oriented skills, so go for automatics. You can handle weapons of all shapes and sizes - MPs for concealed carry, SMGs for when you wanta bit more firepower that you can still squeeze under the coat and ARs for when you need MOAR DAKKA and don't give a frag who sees you with it. Also, you can suppress hostiles (which as far as I know, you can't do with magic).
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I'll stay by my recommendation for longarms:
Shotguns are the king of delivering dodge penalties - invaluable for people with limited dice pool. They are also the only weapon able to hit two adjacent people without splitting your dicepool.
Mages have a lot of possibilities to smuggle guns - illusions, spirits with concealment powers, shape material and increase gear limit to make the sawed off shotgun accurate again.
And if necessary they can use the skill with a sniper rifle and clairvoyance of any kind to shoot people through massive walls.
Best of all: Only very few people will expect the man with the riot shotgun or the long rifle to be the mage of the team.
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If they are some kind of Gun-Mage I agree with you all day on Longarms, Jack. Spells to hide your bigger weapons, get bonuses to shooting, etc. are all very useful if you build for it. That said, I'd call it a dedicated build (that I might make just to see what comes of it).
If the gun is their side piece though, you shouldn't be wasting your spells on the firearm; it is there to take out minor threats, support your allies and make you look like a slightly less important target. At that point the gun is just icing on the magic-cake, so coating it in more batter probably won't go well. A shotgun can do the same kinds of things, but with less flexibility than Automatics. It works quite well if you want! But not so much if you want to keep a firearm on hand in more areas, or for suppressive fire (if it is a side-piece, you probably aren't going to go for the Forbidden automatic shotgun).
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I'll second the recommendation for LongArms.
You don't need a concealable pistol, your a MAGE, no one can "spot" the magic spell brewing in your head.
But, the ability to put out serious damage w/ Shotgun or Sniper Rifle & avoid burning yourself out into unconsciousness with overcasting can be quite handy.
Also, spells rarely have range limitations so if you can see it at range then you can still cast at it. So another bonus for using long arms.
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Let's assume we're talking about someone with Agility 5 + Weapon 4 = 9 dice which will average 3 hits.
* Shotgun (Enfield AS-7 for example, 13P DV and 5 Accuracy)
- Narrow spread
All ranges (0-60 meters), full damage (13P). Imposes -1 defense penalty to single target.
- Medium spread
Short range (0-15), -1 DV (12P), -3 defense penalty to 2 targets within 2 meter spread.
Medium range (15-30), -3 DV (10P), -3 defense penalty to 3 targets within 4 meter spread.
Long range (30-45), -5 DV (8P) and -1 Accuracy (4), -3 defense penalty to 4 targets within 6 meter spread.
Extreme range (45-60), -7 DV (6P) and -1 Accuracy (4), -3 defense penalty to 6 targets within 8 meter spread.
- Wide spread
Short range (0-15), -3 DV (10P), -5 defense penalty to 2 targets within 3 meter spread.
Medium range (15-30), -5 DV (8P), -5 defense penalty to 3 targets within 6 meter spread.
Long range (30-45), -7 DV (6P) and -1 Accuracy (4), -5 defense penalty to 5 targets within 9 meter spread.
Extreme range (45-60), -9 DV (4P) and -1 Accuracy (4), -5 defense penalty to 6 targets within 12 meter spread.
So the scariest application of a shotgun vs group of gangers would be rolling 3 hits with an Accuracy of 4, hoping that the -5 penalty keeps them from dodging, so you can deal a whopping 4P DV.
* SMG (FN P93 Praetor for example, 8P DV and 6 Accuracy)
- Suppressing Fire
Any range (0-150 meters), Full damage, -(hits) defense penalty to any number of targets within 10 meter spread. Targets attempting anything other than hiding behind cover / down prone must roll Reaction + Edge, Threshold (hits) to avoid taking full damage.
The SMG can cover more area than any shotgun blast, save the wide spread - extreme range. And it always applies full damage regardless of range, which means it's just as effective / more effective than 5/9s of the shotgun damage. And most importantly, it forces all targets in the area to get down and stay down or else they automatically risk damage. You don't need to overcome their entire dodge pool, just their Reaction + Edge.
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Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
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Also, for suppressive fire you have to spend your whole combat turn. Mages tend to have other uses for their ini-phases.
Also you are forgetting that you can purchase FA shotguns and get the best of both worlds.
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I say you take the skill and weapon that works best for your conception of the character, or for the nature of your game. If your group is mostly doing military style assaults on hard targets, then range and firepower are important, if you are mostly threading high security or operating in very civilian manner than that concealability and legality are bigger deals. If you view your character as a detective, an assault rifle might not be in character, etc
In other words, they can all be useful, but it depends on what you enjoy and what you are optimizing for.
Personally I'd say pistol .... and edge. On the theory that you seldom expect to use the firearm at all, so something you can take almost anywhere is good. And you use it seldom enough, and in particular situations, such that you can hope to edge the roll more often than not.
Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
Which is really not the question this thread was addressing.
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Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
In today US, i can buy a FA assault rifle and learn to use it without taking once in hand a handgun.
In the Sixth World, where gun control is even more lassez faire, I do not see any problem with this kind of skills.
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Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
Terrible skill generalization game mechanics.
It's the same reason why someone with "Pilot Ground Craft" can ride a motorcycle, or drive a car, or handle a big rig with equal levels of skill. And yet a non-paraplegic Rigger still needs "Pilot Walker" to operate an Ares Duelist.
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Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
Terrible skill generalization game mechanics.
It's the same reason why someone with "Pilot Ground Craft" can ride a motorcycle, or drive a car, or handle a big rig with equal levels of skill. And yet a non-paraplegic Rigger still needs "Pilot Walker" to operate an Ares Duelist.
Handling but ya, pistols or automatics no one is going anywhere toting a sniper rifle or shotgun pistols for tasers and pistols automatics for machine pistols smgs or if you dont care about concealability assault rifles for those long ranges then switch it up with either stick and shock apds or flechette for the screw you I dont care if you duck suppression tactic
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To the OP: Automatics + MP (for normal carry) and SMG (for when you really need to shoot stuff)> I don't recommend AR because you won't be able to deal with the recoil like a sam will.
Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
Terrible skill generalization game mechanics.
Yup.
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it's one of those questions with no real 'Right' answer. The closest being "Whatever suits the character concept."
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Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
The people you're playing with are strict on skill substitution.
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What about at chracter creation where a mage will maybe have 4-6 dice (3 agility + 1 skill rank + specialization)?
Probably more black trenchcoat than pink mohawk style steal, negotiation and limited fighting.
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According to the Training Time chart on Core pg 107, it takes (New Rating x 1 day) to learn ratings 1-4. So Rating 1 takes 1 day. Rating 2 takes 2 more days... So going from total noob to Rating 4 only takes 10 days of training.
If you only have Rating 1, you are someone who was shown a picture of a gun in a magazine and told "You point this end at the bad guys" and that's about it. At which point, it's probably not worth having a gun anyway. Just point the picture of the gun at them and yell "Bang!", it will be about as useful as you would be with Rating 1.
But I still stand by what I've been saying thus far. Suppressing Fire is the way to go if you want to contribute without much skill investment. Shotgun blasts sound scary and impressive, but you're still expected to hit the targets you're aiming at. Which you are NOT going to do with 4 dice. Suppressing Fire automatically hits unless the targets dive for cover. Or unless they are willing to chance avoiding fire by beating your Threshold. Only they have no idea what the Threshold is until they stand up and try it.
So you could either level a shotgun in their direction, only to have them laugh and say "How did you miss me? I'm like 3 feet away!?"
Or you could spray bullets in their direction and force everyone to drop. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eczm7_Hi1_4)
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Or flechette suppress while someone else throws a grenade
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According to the Training Time chart on Core pg 107, it takes (New Rating x 1 day) to learn ratings 1-4. So Rating 1 takes 1 day. Rating 2 takes 2 more days... So going from total noob to Rating 4 only takes 10 days of training.
If you only have Rating 1, you are someone who was shown a picture of a gun in a magazine and told "You point this end at the bad guys" and that's about it. At which point, it's probably not worth having a gun anyway. Just point the picture of the gun at them and yell "Bang!", it will be about as useful as you would be with Rating 1.
But I still stand by what I've been saying thus far. Suppressing Fire is the way to go if you want to contribute without much skill investment. Shotgun blasts sound scary and impressive, but you're still expected to hit the targets you're aiming at. Which you are NOT going to do with 4 dice. Suppressing Fire automatically hits unless the targets dive for cover. Or unless they are willing to chance avoiding fire by beating your Threshold. Only they have no idea what the Threshold is until they stand up and try it.
So you could either level a shotgun in their direction, only to have them laugh and say "How did you miss me? I'm like 3 feet away!?"
Or you could spray bullets in their direction and force everyone to drop. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eczm7_Hi1_4)
Its why my initial 3 possibilities in guns had 2 of them relying on the automatics skill. The 1 isn't likely to hit is th reason for the specialization as it gives me the equivilent of 3 ranks in the firearm I choose e.g. automatics specialized submachine gun = 3 ranks when using submachine guns then as I get some karma I can easily buy it up another rank or two giving me 3 agiility + 4-5 ranks worth of dice with submachine guns for a total pool of 8. Still not great but it should be enough for a secondary or tertiary skill I thought.
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Mathematically, the chances of any single die coming up a success are 1:3. Which means the easiest way to run the math is to divide the dice pool by 3 and that's the average hits you'll score. If you only have 6 dice to roll, you're looking at 2 hits on average.
You can either use those 2 hits as the Threshold for everyone downrange to avoid your hail of gunfire. Or you can use those 2 hits on a shotgun blast and hope you actually hit the targets despite their defense pools.
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a goid comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a good comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
1) There's a difference between being a Rigger, and being a drone owner. Anyone can go downtown and buy a drone, and order it to shoot stuff. You don't even need a Commlink at all, except they're the cheapest way to get a high rated Firewall.
2) Any device can protect (Device Rating x 3) other devices. So even a Rating 1 Commlink could be Master to 3 different Slaved devices, such as drones. Not that it would be worth the effort, since drones would have a better Firewall than a Rating 1 Commlink could provide.
3) Back to the "not needing a Commlink" aspect, if you're relying on the Pilot program and the Autosofts to do the work for you, then all you need is to tell the drone what to do. "Shoot those guys over there" and off it goes rolling its own dice.
But yes... as often as you may see a teammate carrying a machine pistol or SMG just so they can lay down covering fire, you'll see some teams that go get a cheap Roto-drone with a mounted machine gun, for the exact same reason. The basic Pilot program, with a cheap Autosoft, is more than enough dice to make it worthwhile.
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a good comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
2) Any device can protect (Device Rating x 3) other devices.
It's Device rating x 2, RCC is Device Rating x 3. Anyway, you are looking at an expense in the ballpark of 20-25000 nuyen for a rotodrone, autosofts, the gun and a DR 6 commlink.
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Assault cannon
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I just got the rigger book, the mack truck appeals to me with its low lifestyle and heavy drone armaemnt for protection. Sadly it only seats 2 and both of them are meant to be riggers to fully use its defenses. Wonder if I could modify one . . .of course its only amenities not a full lifestyle still i need to look more into what these thigns do as I've been looking for a RV for permanent traveller living.
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a good comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
2) Any device can protect (Device Rating x 3) other devices.
It's Device rating x 2, RCC is Device Rating x 3. Anyway, you are looking at an expense in the ballpark of 20-25000 nuyen for a rotodrone, autosofts, the gun and a DR 6 commlink.
Core pg 233, PANs and WANs
Your commlink (or deck) can handle up to (Device Rating x 3) slaved devices, becoming the master device in that particular relationship.
For some reason, everybody thinks RCCs can support more devices. All they do differently is Autosoft sharing and quick transition between drones.
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a good comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
1) There's a difference between being a Rigger, and being a drone owner. Anyone can go downtown and buy a drone, and order it to shoot stuff. You don't even need a Commlink at all, except they're the cheapest way to get a high rated Firewall.
3) Back to the "not needing a Commlink" aspect, if you're relying on the Pilot program and the Autosofts to do the work for you, then all you need is to tell the drone what to do. "Shoot those guys over there" and off it goes rolling its own dice.
Good luck getting it to hit anything on its own unless you're just going on a killing spree on average Joes in a shopping mall.
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a good comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
1) There's a difference between being a Rigger, and being a drone owner. Anyone can go downtown and buy a drone, and order it to shoot stuff. You don't even need a Commlink at all, except they're the cheapest way to get a high rated Firewall.
3) Back to the "not needing a Commlink" aspect, if you're relying on the Pilot program and the Autosofts to do the work for you, then all you need is to tell the drone what to do. "Shoot those guys over there" and off it goes rolling its own dice.
Good luck getting it to hit anything on its own unless you're just going on a killing spree on average Joes in a shopping mall.
Compared to an agility 2 mage with 2 points in pistols?
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Probably more black trenchcoat than pink mohawk style steal, negotiation and limited fighting.
"Limited fighting" is a nice conceit, but doesn't bear out in play, because frankly, do it too often and it's actually pretty boring. And penalizes the people who build to fight things out.
It's a much better conceit for a video game.
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I mostly went for a taser, a heavy pistol and a shotgun. 2 ranks in pistol, 2 ranks in longarms with specialisation in shotgun and some equipment bonusses. That way you can carry the taser if you are in a vicinity where you can't carry anything else (high end parties for instance), take the shotgun (mostly an enfield AS-7 with drum magazine because it looks like a tommygun and I like that look) for the take-down part (I also had a car with smuggling compartment to keep it in), and the heavy pistol for anything else. And you don't drain your resources all that much even with all three.
I must admit that my last mages were mostly ex-military or ex-cop mages, so having these skills was fitting the concept. I managed to get around 10 dice, which was enough to keep the mooks occupied while the heavy fighters dropped the bosses. And in one of our runs, I was very lucky to have these skills, as we were operating in a background count that made it all but impossible for me to actually do magic (-4 to -6).
But as said, take what fits your mage's concept. ex-cop or ex-military you can take just about any weapon. If you come from an academic background, I as GM would request a very good explanation before I would allow heavy weaponry.
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For some reason, everybody thinks RCCs can support more devices. All they do differently is Autosoft sharing and quick transition between drones.
You make it sound like autosoft sharing and improvements to your action economy aren't totally worth the cost.
But as said, take what fits your mage's concept. ex-cop or ex-military you can take just about any weapon. If you come from an academic background, I as GM would request a very good explanation before I would allow heavy weaponry.
You make it sound like the average former civilian runner in the 2070s can't buy an MP and go to a gun range to justify having the Automatics skill. Why do you think people IRL today go for semiautomatic pistols or more, ranging from gang members to civilians wanting a home defense or carried sidearm? The answer is: more shots are typically better in life-or-death situations.
Now, obviously there's a difference since I don't think MPs are generally civilian legal today (correct me if I'm wrong; I mean, a certain particular group of people openly carry ARs into Target these days just because they can, so maybe carrying an MP isn't out of the question), but the point still bears out in a more consumerist world with generally fewer restrictions like the 2070s.
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For some reason, everybody thinks RCCs can support more devices. All they do differently is Autosoft sharing and quick transition between drones.
You make it sound like autosoft sharing and improvements to your action economy aren't totally worth the cost.
No no, I agree there are excellent benefits for a Rigger to use an RCC. Autosoft sharing is great, so long as you make sure all your drones are compatible. Since you can't share out and also let the drones run their own, you basically have to use a fleet of identical drones to make it worthwhile. Quick transitions are nice, otherwise you waste 2 actions to get between drones. And I forgot to mention reducing Noise in several ways, another handy perk.
My point was just that I keep seeing people who say that RCCs can Slave more devices than a Commlink or a Deck could. That may have been the case in older editions, but SR5 lets all devices protect the same amount. In which case, Commlinks are the most cost effective means of providing Firewall protection. Especially if you add a Sleaze dongle, so your Slaved devices are better at Running Silent too.
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Ahh, gotcha.
[insert yet another eternal scream about how dongles are bullshit here]
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The laws in the United States aren't so much about what the gun looks like (excepting the 'assault weapon' fears, don't get me started) so much as the actual capability for automatic fire; an automatic weapon (or suppressor) is illegal unless you go through the process to get a stamp (it is cheap (the stamp is $200, the price was decided back when a Thompson SMG and some cars cost less than that), but quite time consuming and takes a bit more thorough background checks). Those AR-15s you see slung on peoples' backs? Most are semi-automatic.
The concept of a machine pistol is gray nowadays. Sure, it could look like a Mac-10 or an Uzi or something (Skorpion, perhaps), but if it is semi-automatic, it is legal. In Shadowrun, things are not so gray. Most machine pistols (most automatic weapons short of a machine gun, actually) are R, not F, regardless of fire rate. Therefore, they can be acquired pretty easily. In the dystopic future, they don't care how many bullets your gun can spray, apparently (given automatic fire outside of suppressive fire and certain weapons is basically a waste of ammo anyways, it makes sense).
I still suggest machine pistols for those folks who don't want to pack full-sized heat, but need to put out the lead when things get hairy. Automatics is generally a more flexible skill and you're more likely to be able to pick up a gun from an enemy and use it if you run out of ammo. Shotguns are another option, but getting an automatic shotgun goes straight into the Forbidden zone, where you could get busted worse for having the gun than whatever you did with it.
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Don't the rules say that anyone with a comlink can control one drone? Maybe the answer is a good comlink + microdrone and let the drone's pilot program do the shooting?
2) Any device can protect (Device Rating x 3) other devices.
It's Device rating x 2, RCC is Device Rating x 3. Anyway, you are looking at an expense in the ballpark of 20-25000 nuyen for a rotodrone, autosofts, the gun and a DR 6 commlink.
Core pg 233, PANs and WANs
Your commlink (or deck) can handle up to (Device Rating x 3) slaved devices, becoming the master device in that particular relationship.
For some reason, everybody thinks RCCs can support more devices. All they do differently is Autosoft sharing and quick transition between drones.
Oh, for me it's because in rigger section specifies DRx3, so I assumed it was better than other devices. My fault for not having re-read that part :D
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I mostly went for a taser, a heavy pistol and a shotgun. 2 ranks in pistol, 2 ranks in longarms with specialisation in shotgun and some equipment bonusses. That way you can carry the taser if you are in a vicinity where you can't carry anything else (high end parties for instance), take the shotgun (mostly an enfield AS-7 with drum magazine because it looks like a tommygun and I like that look) for the take-down part (I also had a car with smuggling compartment to keep it in), and the heavy pistol for anything else. And you don't drain your resources all that much even with all three.
I must admit that my last mages were mostly ex-military or ex-cop mages, so having these skills was fitting the concept. I managed to get around 10 dice, which was enough to keep the mooks occupied while the heavy fighters dropped the bosses. And in one of our runs, I was very lucky to have these skills, as we were operating in a background count that made it all but impossible for me to actually do magic (-4 to -6).
But as said, take what fits your mage's concept. ex-cop or ex-military you can take just about any weapon. If you come from an academic background, I as GM would request a very good explanation before I would allow heavy weaponry.
How''d you get ten dice if you don't mind me asking since i doubt your mages agility was 6.
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I don't know about his mage, but the Aspected Conjurer I played for a while had a pool of 11 for his TMP:
+4 Agility
+3 Automatics
+2 Specialization
+2 Smartgun/link Wireless
It let him lay down Suppressing Fire for his team while his spirits did their jobs.
That said, if he had an Agility of 4 he'd have a pool of 10.
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How''d you get ten dice if you don't mind me asking since i doubt your mages agility was 6.
This was 4th edition, so Smartlink. I had 8 dice for the pistol, 10 for the shotgun, 4 agility (str, edge and the mental one I didn't need for drain were my weak stats I think, it's been a long time).
You make it sound like the average former civilian runner in the 2070s can't buy an MP and go to a gun range to justify having the Automatics skill. Why do you think people IRL today go for semiautomatic pistols or more, ranging from gang members to civilians wanting a home defense or carried sidearm? The answer is: more shots are typically better in life-or-death situations.
Now, obviously there's a difference since I don't think MPs are generally civilian legal today (correct me if I'm wrong; I mean, a certain particular group of people openly carry ARs into Target these days just because they can, so maybe carrying an MP isn't out of the question), but the point still bears out in a more consumerist world with generally fewer restrictions like the 2070s.
They can have it, but they will have to explain where they got it from. Also, me and my group live in Europe, where the weapon's laws are much more stringent and most people never handle a gun in their entire life. This gets reflected in the way we do shadowrun.
Like I said, what gun you want to give him depends on concept and I would like to add, setting. If your runners are for instance in Brittain, they probably have at maximum heavy pistols, if you are in Lagos, you don't want to be seen without automatic weapons.
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Ah keep forgetting the smartlink when tallying these things that'd add another 2 dice I suppose so 3 + 3 + 2 = 8 dice pool.
Personally I'd like to run in Japan but I doubt that's going to happen.
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How do you think you can sneak a bow?
Well, considering that bows are Legal, not even Restricted, there are actually quite a few places you can take them openly. Unlike, say, most automatics. When you really need to sneak a bow into a place that you couldn't just walk in with it, well, you'd be doing that with the rifle anyways, and the ability to walk with your weapon openly past the Knights to and from the job isn't something to take lightly.
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There's a nice weapon modification in Hard Targets to sneak a bow around; a manual break-down would basically be unstringing it than taking the arms off. Only works on certain modern designs, but that's probably what you're going for at that point.
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How do you think you can sneak a bow?
Well, considering that bows are Legal, not even Restricted, there are actually quite a few places you can take them openly. Unlike, say, most automatics. When you really need to sneak a bow into a place that you couldn't just walk in with it, well, you'd be doing that with the rifle anyways, and the ability to walk with your weapon openly past the Knights to and from the job isn't something to take lightly.
Most automatics are R, meaning, have a license, and are eminently more concealable than bows.
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all guns save tasers are R
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My current face/mage has automatics with machine pistols specialization. Previously I thought that the only suitable weapon skill for a face is pistols, because even heavy pistols and thus machine pistols are difficult to hide. But with adequate palming skill hiding is possible. My character has 9 dices in palming pool which means on average 3 successes. To notice the weapon, the enemy has to get more net hits and it is easily possible to reduce his pool by 2 or 3 dices. Even 5 dices is possible depending how your gm allows stacking hiding bonuses. And in extreme cases you can use spirits' concealment powers.
Do not underestimate palming skill, it is very useful.
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There's also the fact that being openly armed isn't really that big a deal in most cases, long as you're not packing a rifle.
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Do not underestimate palming skill, it is very useful.
And always take it, as you can't default !
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Don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but a guy over on Reddit wrote a nice piece compairing all the various guns in the game though could help you get a nice solid firearm for your mage that fits your style. It can be found at http://www.carpeomnis.com/2015/06/10/shadowrun-armory/
My own opinion, I go with either pistol or shotgun for my mages. Both offer a good backup when I don't want to risk drain (or want some special ammo) with skills that also offer other options. Which one I take varies on the character.
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I am also a big arguer for either automatics with specialization in Machine Pistols or Pistols with specialization in one of the various pistol categories. Really, it depends on how you see your mage as weapon backup. Hell, I will even argue for using either the Room Sweaper or La Mat (Spelling?) which are both heavy pistols with shotgun style options over carrying an actual shotgun.
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food for thought most mass shootings are with machine pistols most gun used in crimes as advertised is the tec-9 irl which the ares crusader would be the equalivant of
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Uh, no. At least, not in most countries.
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Well after the advice here and in the linked thread I'm going to go back to using pistols and the Ares V. If I'm calculating correctly this gets me Agility (3) + Skill (3) + semi-auto specialization (2) + smartlink (2) + personalized grip (1) = 11 dice which isn't bad for a secondary skill and if I add in improve abilty agility I can bump that up to a potential 15 dice.
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Almost. You only get +1 from smartlink if you haven't an implant.
Also, may I suggest you get the Savalette Guardian - with a double sized magazine and a custom grip.
A Defiance-Ex with laser sight and custom grip won't hurt either, since this completely legal combo can be carried around with impunity.
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Well after the advice here and in the linked thread I'm going to go back to using pistols and the Ares V. If I'm calculating correctly this gets me Agility (3) + Skill (3) + semi-auto specialization (2) + smartlink (2) + personalized grip (1) = 11 dice which isn't bad for a secondary skill and if I add in improve abilty agility I can bump that up to a potential 15 dice.
Just a quick note: Personalized Grip only gives +1 Accuracy (Limit), not +1 Die (To Hit).
Pistols are a solid choice. I think they're an underrated weapon, myself.
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Bah all these different effects for the same term fine 9 dice then or 13 with improved agility, weird smartlink give more bonus if you sacrifice part of your soul to it..
I'm getting the yamaha puser can just squeeze the cash for it or some extra ammo only have 24 regular bullets, suppose I could downgrade from traveller to low liefstyle. . . I'll put the defiance down as a future purchase though. How do you double size the magazine don't recall that modification from anywhere?
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Double sized magazines are in Hard Target, cost 35 NY and aren't a modification - just a larger magazine.
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Ah don't have that one.
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course larger magazine means harder to conceal
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Only if you have them loaded in from the start.
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if I add in improve abilty agility
This isn't a Thing, so I'm not sure if you mean an Attribute Boost: Agility, Increase Agility the spell, or Improved Ability: Pistols the adept power.
At any rate, 11 dice isn't bad, but you might miss having the option of denying defense dice with auto-fire.
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How do you think you can sneak a bow?
Well, considering that bows are Legal, not even Restricted, there are actually quite a few places you can take them openly. Unlike, say, most automatics. When you really need to sneak a bow into a place that you couldn't just walk in with it, well, you'd be doing that with the rifle anyways, and the ability to walk with your weapon openly past the Knights to and from the job isn't something to take lightly.
Most automatics are R, meaning, have a license, and are eminently more concealable than bows.
I would think that if you want to focus on some backup weapon, that you need something your magic cannot do innately. Since its extremely easy to sneak in with no weapon and stunbolt someone... I would think you want a high damage weapon that can be used in long battle scenarios. A pistol doesn't do it well. An assault rifle or a bow or a sword with magic fingers would all satisfy that niche.
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I would think that if you want to focus on some backup weapon, that you need something your magic cannot do innately. Since its extremely easy to sneak in with no weapon and stunbolt someone... I would think you want a high damage weapon that can be used in long battle scenarios. A pistol doesn't do it well. An assault rifle or a bow or a sword with magic fingers would all satisfy that niche.
One advantage of pistol is its 'go (almost) anywhere' status. Because you don't always know when you are going to be walking into a nasty background count or be facing crazy levels of counterspelling.
Anecdote time: The shaman in my game probably hasn't gone through two full clip of ammo for his light pistol in over 200 karma worth of play. But not long ago he got pulled into a quick run to disrupt a ritual casting -- one side in a ritual dual between hermetic mages had her lodge disrupted and wanted quick payback before the other guy dropped the ritual on her. Shaman had to move fast before the ritual is completed, finally sneaks into the basement where the target lodge is -- and find out that it is not some scruffy thing put together with mas from Mages-R-Us but a very high rating lodge carved into the concrete walls, put together with metal -- and occupied by a ritual team of six. The background count for shamanic magic would be high and he was outnumbered badly by a team of magicians. Clearly 'not as advertised.'
So he pretty quickly decided he had three choices: start a fire that would force an evacuation of the building (but risk the inhabitants in the slum apartments above), give up, or take out the leader of the ritual. He deactivates his foci, drops sustained spells, readies his pistol and steps into the lodge. Simple action to take aim, simple action to shoot a single shot. He uses edge to push the limit, and turns his 4 agility+4 pistols skill into fifteen dice (5 edge, laser sight, take aim), and rides exploding sixes to drop the magician into overflow (caught him by surprise, so no defense dice). Backlash as the ritual goes down takes out two of the other five and leaves the other three heavily hurt, letting the shaman make his getaway (directly into the strongest mana barrier he could pay his way into, just to be on the safe side).
Granted that he had some amends to make to Cat after such a direct solution, but the real point is that sometimes you will need a mundane solution, but you don't know when someday will come. So I'd choose whatever you feel most comfortable having with you most of the time.
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As a Mage, just take a rank or two in Pistols--just enough to have an excuse to carry one. You're a Mage, not a shooter, so it doesn't actually matter if you can hit the broadside of a barn.
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Good anecdote, Beta. I've been in that kind of situation myself. There's a reason why, whenever I play a character with any kind of combat focus (whether Awakened or not), I always have a melee and a ranged weapon skill (and Astral Combat, if a mage). Sure, I may have Blades (Swords) at 6(+2), and Pistols (Semi-Automatics) at 1(+2), but that still means when I need to hit someone at range, and I'm not willing to risk drain, I still have a decent (8 dice or so) shot at hitting them. Other times, I'll have Archery (Bows) at 5(+2) and Unarmed combat at 2. It all depends on the character, but I always have melee and ranged options available.
Now, as far as weapon choices go, I tend to look at it like this: I want a weapon that is going to be threatening enough that it will keep the random crazies from approaching me, but not threatening enough that it calls down all the Knights or other such people's attention on me, on top of the 'Geek the Mage First' syndrome. A heavy pistol or bow fits into this category nicely. That'll do fine for like 84% of the situations you'll be in. 15%, you're going to be in no-weapons zones, so you want something you can conceal (unarmed combat or a concealed blade are the winners here). The last 1%, well, you're going in hot and heavy, and maybe in those cases having points in automatics would be helpful so you can carry an assault rifle and know what you're doing because the lightly armed guy in a group of people loaded for war screams 'mage'. But that's an outlier. Usually, if you're the mage, you want everyone else to seem more threatening than you, because that may buy you the first pass or two of people shooting at someone else, instead of you. Once you start lighting off spells, though, it turns to geeking you first, then they'll turn back to the people with the assault rifles or heavy weapons.
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As a Mage, just take a rank or two in Pistols--just enough to have an excuse to carry one. You're a Mage, not a shooter, so it doesn't actually matter if you can hit the broadside of a barn.
I don't agree with this, because I don't always want to suck Drain every pass to do stuff in combat, or immediately out myself for geeking.
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Using magic is always a tactical decision. Most times it's going to be better to risk a bit of stun (or even physical) drain to end the encounter quickly than it is to act like the Street Sam and pull out a gun. In the case of stun, I'd rather risk a few points of that--which stands a good chance of being gone in an hour--than risk dying in a protracted fire fight.
There are a couple of tropes in SR that need to be downplayed much more. The 'geek the mage' and 'never deal with a dragon' are the biggest, as enforcing these too much can move into the realm of punishing the player(s) for playing what they want to play (in the former case) or for playing the GM's adventure (in the latter case).
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No, 'Geek the Mage First' is there for a very important reason. A mage can royally screw up a team's day if they don't have magic of their own to compensate. Sure, not all are combat mages or force-multipliers like illusionists or summoners, but you can't tell which is which until it is too late, so you geek them first. And if you can't spot a mage, your next priority target is the troll with the assault cannon. Sure, the stealthy assassin type or the street samurai may be the more dangerous threat overall, but you take out the mages and heavy weapons first because there's just too much at risk there.
Likewise, the 'Never deal with a dragon' trope is there for a good reason. When you deal with a dragon, you become part of their games, and their games are always about what is best for them. That's no different than being a corporate runner or on the payroll of the local Mafia family, but dragons have millenia of baggage that follows them around, usually with other dragons. Which means that, in addition to the stuff involving corporate politics, stealing magic artifacts, and influencing the locals, you got a good chance of going up against immortal elves and other dragons. Moreover, it is possible to outplay a corporate raider or Yakuza oyabun. Dragons are, literally, several times smarter than you, and have been playing these games for longer than most civilizations have been around.
Now, as far as drain versus shooting someone, you're right, Guns, if you're only considering one fight a day. But a smart runner doesn't plan on a single combat the whole run. They consider what happens if they have to shoot their way out of a situation, and still have more to do. Risking a few points of drain is fine. But when you've already got a few points on your condition monitor, those few points become more and more problematic, and you have to choose your spells carefully. Having a nonmagical attack option increases your versatility and stamina dramatically. That's why I always have at least two extra clips of ammo on me, even if my gun rarely clears its holster.
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Mages also need an option for use in situations that involve a high background count/different aspect.
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.... and for when they won't be able to clean up their spell signatures (and can afford to not play to their strengths -- sometimes you just take your chances and hope that whatever mana barrier you get behind is good enough that they can't trace you)
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Sorry thought I edited that I meant the spell increase attribute agility to turn it from a 3 to a 7 potentially.
A boy with magic fingers is tempting since I just realized if you can hit 10 str and agility with the spell and have a rating 10 weapon you can do 12pv-3 at 10, 100, 300, 600 ranges. Its not very concealable though and without smartlink there's no way to boost your accuracy besides skill/agility.
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Sorry thought I edited that I meant the spell increase attribute agility to turn it from a 3 to a 7 potentially.
A boy with magic fingers is tempting since I just realized if you can hit 10 str and agility with the spell and have a rating 10 weapon you can do 12pv-3 at 10, 100, 300, 600 ranges. Its not very concealable though and without smartlink there's no way to boost your accuracy besides skill/agility.
Sr 4 had a collapsible bow that made it easy to lug around at a -1 dv penality.
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Injection darts are my go-to weapon to use with Magic Fingers.
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Sorry thought I edited that I meant the spell increase attribute agility to turn it from a 3 to a 7 potentially.
A boy with magic fingers is tempting since I just realized if you can hit 10 str and agility with the spell and have a rating 10 weapon you can do 12pv-3 at 10, 100, 300, 600 ranges. Its not very concealable though and without smartlink there's no way to boost your accuracy besides skill/agility.
Sr 4 had a collapsible bow that made it easy to lug around at a -1 dv penality.
plus smart links are usable on bows
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I go back and forth on this one
Method one: Executioner
Ruger Super Warhawk, Smartlink, Ammo Skip, 'trodes. Couple Stick and Shock, couple Explosive, one tracker round. 2 speed loaders with Explosive and Stick and Shock.
As a mage you've got access to Increase Agility and Analyze Device, both have high utility outside of buffing your gun skill. You've also got access to Invisibility, Spirit Concealment powers, assorted mind control, and other horrible things, all of which have uses outside of gun battles.
If you weren't able to set up the ambush or buffs my own preference is Control Thoughts, "Don't Move" and a coup de grace on your next pass.
Method two: Mr. Tactical
Automatics skill, any weapon with FA, Open with AoE Debuff, pop (thermal) smoke, lay down suppression fire with Astral sight from good cover from inside your smoke. Let the team flank and mop up.
Method Three: Repeat Offenders style.
Mage with large defense tests (example Int tradition Mysad, maxed combat sense and a deflection prep running, you're around 20 dice without dodging. ) Open with AoE debuff, walk up to point blank and shoot them in their ugly face.
Note, Method Three requires a fairly specialized build to pull off. Method one and two can be done with Automatics or Longarms if your mage is able to cart around a big gun.
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No, 'Geek the Mage First' is there for a very important reason. A mage can royally screw up a team's day if they don't have magic of their own to compensate. Sure, not all are combat mages or force-multipliers like illusionists or summoners, but you can't tell which is which until it is too late, so you geek them first. And if you can't spot a mage, your next priority target is the troll with the assault cannon. Sure, the stealthy assassin type or the street samurai may be the more dangerous threat overall, but you take out the mages and heavy weapons first because there's just too much at risk there.
Agreed.
In our last campaign I learned quickly to not fire off a Stunball/Lightning bolt as soon as the bag guys appeared.
My GM awarded me loads of agro when I did that. Even more than the Troll Tank with a Shotgun would get.
But if I fired off a few bursts w/ my SMG or MP instead I would have less NPCs shooting at me.
This worked to my advantage even more so since it gave me some time to figure out where most the badies were & then target spells more accurately when it was time to unleash.
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Mostly if I play a mage my first action is: if I already know who the enemy mage is, try to take him/her out. If not, look in the astral to see who lights up like a christmas tree. Next pass and/or round, attack that person. 'Geek the mage' goes both ways. :)
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Looking into the astral lights you up like a Christmas tree also.
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Not limiting myself to the "What should a Mage should chose":
When you have a single Weapon Skill to put your Karma Focus in, stick with Automatics.
You'll always face different situations requiring different approaches, Automatics gives you the means to cover a lot of situations in a convenient way, while making yourself not a one-trick pony and also not requiring to many Skillpoints of investment.
You also don't put yourself in a trap of chosing an option that is a waste of points later one.
Start out small, 1-2 Points with specialization? A Automatic Pistol is a viable tool to defend yourself and assist your teammates, while still being not-that-hard to conceal.
Later in the game or if the need arrises, you can always switch to bigger guns without your initial Investment becomming nill.
Pistols are not as good in my opinion, because they require you to actually HIT somebody to get some sort of effect, which might be diametral to the "low dice pool" premise you might be working with from the start.
Full-Auto on the other hand is easily done and if nothing else, at least allows you to flee after making them drop the deck.
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The thing about machine pistols is that if you do manage to hit they only do 6/7 P damage.
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The thing about machine pistols is that if you do manage to hit they only do 6/7 P damage.
True, but with pistols you don't get essentially more.
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With one MP that has base AP of -1. Besides one light pistol, and of the heavy pistols, 6-7 is the pistol dv range. Kinda like ARs are 10-12 dv with most being 11 dv.
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True there's that too.
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Ruger Super Warhawk with Explosive Ammo gets you to 10P with -3 AP. Ex-Explosive and Hand Loads can up that a little more even when available. Heavy Pistols are not bad for damage output. ARs and Longarms are of course more damage, but they're also non-concealable and heavier. Heavier often matters to a Mage : )
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The thing about machine pistols is that if you do manage to hit they only do 6/7 P damage.
True, but with pistols you don't get essentially more.
Are you intentionally ignoring better range and defense penalties from full auto?
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Honestly, while the defense penalties from full auto are nice, they tear through ammo like mad, and draw all kinds of attention. For a mage, I'd rather have a solid melee option like a sword, staff, or hand weapon, and a heavy pistol as backup. In practice with my combat builds, anything that is quick enough that I need the defense penalties to hit it is probably something I'm better off using area spells and grenades on. A flashbang or two in enclosed spaces makes for very unhappy (and easy to hit) enemies. Or I summon a spirit and let them play.
A mage's first weapon should be spells and spirits. After that, melee or ranged weaponry, as you feel appropriate.
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I don't think mages benefit enough from the stats needed to go into melee, unless you're a Mystic (blade) Adept, and even then, you're probably better off with a mono whip weapon focus and dumping STR.
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For me, I like pistols as a skill for a non-weapons specialist.
Side-arms are common enough in-setting that everyone in the biz and shitter end of town carries one anyway, and tasers are legal enough to carry in the smarter end of town.
They're concealable enough that they can be sneaked in no problem and several of them hit pretty hard (the Ruger super-warhawk for example). My personal fave is the fichetti security 600 for the high accuracy, decent enough damage, free laser sight and 30 round clip. Doesn't take much modding at all to be a great little sidearm!
Machine pistols are also nice, but most of the FA ones have low damage and penetration so aren't great at actually hurting anything if you don't want to suppress and chew through a clip a turn. Some of the BF ones are pretty decent though, especially when loaded with non-regular ammo like APDS or handloaded EX-EX etc.
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The thing about machine pistols is that if you do manage to hit they only do 6/7 P damage.
True, but with pistols you don't get essentially more.
Are you intentionally ignoring better range and defense penalties from full auto?
No just looked at the base ranges for a weapon type, didn't even realize full auto gave range increase. I knew you could penalize their defenses but that's why I was looking originally looking at 2 automatic weapons (machine pistol and assault rifle) but the thread brought me back to looking at heavy pistols which appeal to me more thematically especially since the savalette has burst fire.
Of course part of this may be that one of the people I've played with regularly is a minmaxing combat monkey. Doesn't matter the system he'll come up with some combination of class, skills, weaponary to do ridiculous amounts of damage while I'm more of a generalist at heart so I've sort of drifted away from bothering with combat and just left it to him while I work on other things e.g. magic, computers, trading since he's not that interested in them.
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I don't think mages benefit enough from the stats needed to go into melee, unless you're a Mystic (blade) Adept, and even then, you're probably better off with a mono whip weapon focus and dumping STR.
The primary attributes needed for melee are Agility, Reaction, and Intuition. Rea and Int are both your initiative, and play a role in defense tests. Agility is used to hit with any weapon skill. So any mage benefits from having a 3-4 in each of those stats. You don't need a massive STR score to be effective in melee, either. STR 2-4 is plenty, especially if you choose your weapons well. A Katana or Monosword, for instance, does good damage (and doesn't have the risk of getting stuck or slashing yourself to ribbons). Bonus: blades are pretty much all Restricted or less, while a Monowhip is Forbidden. The reason why I go with a physical weapon instead of unarmed combat (other than an adept using Killing Hands) is a psychological thing. A visible weapon is a deterrent everyone understands. Sure, you might KNOW that one guy is a trained hand to hand fighter, and the other guy knows just a bit more than where to put the pointy end of the sword, but that lizard part of your brain which starts going in overdrive when it comes to fight or flight situations sees the visible weapon as a bigger threat, right until the killing hands adept punches a hole in your street sammy's chest with his bare hands.
If you look solely at damage codes, you have a point. But once you start looking at the forest instead of the trees, blades or clubs become a safer option than monowhips, and the fact that they never run out of ammo is no small consideration. But a lot of this comes down to playstyles, perhaps. Some people look for the maximum impact in a single combat, while some people take a slightly lesser impact in one combat for an improved benefit over the long term. Neither is wrong, just different.
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Actually, besides Monowhip builds, Strength needs to be almost as high as Agility on humans. Before net hits, higher the strength higher the damage. Better to take your Str 3-4 and put those skill points you have in a melee skill and max/specialize you gun, spellcasting, summoning, or counter spelling skills. Unless your are also using increase attribute spells to raise either/both agility and strength.
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*shrugs* For my human or elf characters, I usually end up with a STR of 2-3 when doing melee weapons, and AGI of 4 or so. A solid Blades skill with specialization means I usually roll at least 10 to 12 dice, more with a weapon focus. That's enough to be a serious threat. Especially since I cheat horribly, eating a -2 sustaining penalty to throw up area debuffs like Opium Den, throwing smoke grenades and using ultrasound on my goggles, and so on. Fair fights are for guys like Superman. If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
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So that's worked for you, at STR 2-3? I just would never consider doing that.
AGI is clearly a more valuable attribute (hits to actually land the attack, net hits add to damage), where STR just modifies the DV. But even with that said, I personally wouldn't think to do a melee-heavy build at low STR, because while STR is less valuable than AGI, it still has some value.
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unarmed shock glove/clubs stun baton/telescoping stun baton/stun staff str not needed
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He never said any of the shock gear, he said blades and a whopping pool of 10-12. Not hyper focused (only second real character) had blade(sword) pool of 14 pre-foci or improved ability ranks. With Str 5(6) due to Qi foci, agility 6, and critical strike. He has a dv of 9 with a combat knife, 10 with his weapon foci katana, or 12 with his nodachi/claymore. And still has automatics for range attacks/AoE debuffs. While, not a caster, screw this only a pool of 10-12 as dedicated melee and only str of 4. Only way I would do low str is either a monowhip build or caster that then used improved attribute spells to raise either/both agility and strength.
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or one of those blade spells from hard targets that ignore armor completely or the other one that has an ap and dv of the force of the spell+net hits?
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Yup, those are fine as well, once they are clarified how they should work completely.
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So that's worked for you, at STR 2-3? I just would never consider doing that.
AGI is clearly a more valuable attribute (hits to actually land the attack, net hits add to damage), where STR just modifies the DV. But even with that said, I personally wouldn't think to do a melee-heavy build at low STR, because while STR is less valuable than AGI, it still has some value.
Yeah, worked fine for me. Just remember that you're a MAGE. If you're a combat mage, then there are easy ways to modify that damage, and throw much needed points to more critical things. Element Aura spells, weapon foci, spirit possession, and more. Plenty of tricks there. STR 3 (as a human or elf) is really the highest I'd go for that kind of build. Gives you decent base damage, but doesn't pull too many points from other things. I've done this with mages, mystic adepts, and adepts. AGI 4, Blades (Swords) 6(+2), Weapon Focus, Reach, and so on, you can get 15+ dice easy. Also using Increase Reflexes on a Sustaining Focus. Swords and sorcery is a kick-ass combo, if you play it right. But then, I also am a big fan of the concept that "if you're not cheating, you're not trying". Anything you can find that adds elemental damage to your attacks (for that nice extra AP and secondary effects) is awesome. Debuffs like Euphoria or Agony that hinder your foes make melee easier. Simply combining ultrasound sensors and thermal smoke grenades (yes, you can't cast on things you 'see' with sensors, but you can still hit them) makes things even nastier. Improved Invisibility? Silence? Awesome! The key to being a magic swordsman is not in being the best mage or the best swordsman, but in being able to flexibly use both interchangeably and together to the best effect.
It is the same as when playing football. There are teams known for their passing game, and teams known for running it straight into your teeth every play to wear you down. Both are great strategies, but the most dangerous teams are the ones that can run or pass equally well, so that you never know what's coming next.
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Now explain how someone knows how to use military grade weapons (fully automatic equals military grade) but doesn't know how to use civilian weapons like handguns, tasers, sport rifles and shotguns.
When I went to basic training, I had never used a firearm in my life. I trained only with the M16A3 and M203; I had KP the day they taught the M60, so I had to have someone run over the basics real quick, so that I had basic knowledge of it. I'd still struggle to get it to load now, and might not be able to do it, as I still never have used one. I went to AIT the next summer, and learned how to work mortars; the 61mm, 81mm (which my unit used), and 4.2" (what idiot thought it would be a good idea to use a mortar round that had charges that required fractional math in a combat zone!?). Even when I was still in, I only used the 81mm mortar and would have struggled using the other two as I never really used them past AIT.
A couple years in, I was moved to the assistant gunner slot, and as a result my issued weapon was switched from the M16A2 to the M1911A1. I had never fired a handgun in my life, and thus had a SSG take me to the range and spend a few hours showing me how to work it properly and firing rounds so that I could get used to it. Sure when I picked it up I could figure out the basic parts: This thing that slides is the slide, that's the trigger, here's the hammer, etc. However until I actually had a chance to use it, and more importantly get used to it, there was no way I was going to be automatically skilled in its use. The same goes for when I got into WWII (Soviet) reenacting many years back: I had to learn how to use a bolt action rifle. Sure it was easier to pick up, but there were enough differences that I wasn't going to be automatically skilled in it just because I had fired other things that fired bullets; I had to use it, and get some experience with it before I was accurately firing it.
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People obviously forget that handy little side rule that your GM may allow you to substitute similar skills at a penalty if you want to use a skill you don't have.
That definitely applies for the firearms group, at least in my group.
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People obviously forget that handy little side rule that your GM may allow you to substitute similar skills at a penalty if you want to use a skill you don't have.
That definitely applies for the firearms group, at least in my group.
which is another reason I prefer automatics...
Knowing machine pistols can easily substitute for pistols
Knowing assault rifles can easily substitute longarms.
But knowing just pistols...hard time selling me you can substitute it for longarms....
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People obviously forget that handy little side rule that your GM may allow you to substitute similar skills at a penalty if you want to use a skill you don't have.
That definitely applies for the firearms group, at least in my group.
which is another reason I prefer automatics...
Knowing machine pistols can easily substitute for pistols
Knowing assault rifles can easily substitute longarms.
But knowing just pistols...hard time selling me you can substitute it for longarms....
Why? Bows and crossbows are in the same group and they share almost nothing in common when it comes to how you shoot one. At least with guns it's the same principles usually, just a different shaped object.
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That is why firearm should be divided in skills by range rather than type, but this is a different topic.
Any Character that I do not want a specific weapon for and that has only karma for one skill I'd take automatics not even close to a debate. especially if you are allowed to substitute for that one occasion you need the taser.
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Knowing assault rifles can easily substitute longarms.
At least with guns it's the same principles usually, just a different shaped object.
I don't even...
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Are you condescending on purpose or is it subconscious?
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Knowing assault rifles can easily substitute longarms.
At least with guns it's the same principles usually, just a different shaped object.
I don't even...
You don't even what? Understand? Clearly you don't. As an archer who shoots regularly and someone who shoots all kinds of guns recreationally I can tell you that a crossbow operates much like a gun (they even make crossbow uppers for ar-15s). Bows do not.
A gun is a single, solid, machine. Point and click. That is an oversimplification, but not by a mile. A bow on the other hand is not solid. The power input is dependent upon the user, and thus the goal is reproducibility. It takes a lot of strength built up over time (with muscles nearly no one uses unless they are an archer) to be able to even pull a bow of sufficient poundage, let alone do it consistently.
A crossbow removes the need to physically draw and hold. You have some kind of assist (crank, pulleys, etc) and a trigger mechanism. Once it is loaded, a crossbow is effectively very similar to a gun. Point and click.