Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Mollari on <06-08-18/0111:41>
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Hi guys
Another question for the community. Backing on some of my other astral signature questions; an astral signature occurs at the location you cast and on the location you cast.
What do high force spells/spirits look like on astral? We've always had a soft sort of GM intervention where if you use magic at a significantly high force it draws attention. Kinda like jedi going "I sense a disturbance in the force"
Now that it's been explained that the signature is locational so what does that mean for detecting?
eg. let's say mr mage blows someone up with a force 12 direct spell (or if you think it's low sub a higher number).
1) would mages immediately be aware as if the magic equivalent of a cannon went off?
2) would people be able to see it as if a bomb went off on the astral or would they need to be in range to assense the person/location?
3) let's say the mage cast this in a building. Astral vision doesn't go through inanimate objects. Does casting things inside a building, regardless of force, remain invisible to people outside?
Thanks guys!
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Hi guys
Another question for the community. Backing on some of my other astral signature questions; an astral signature occurs at the location you cast and on the location you cast.
What do high force spells/spirits look like on astral? We've always had a soft sort of GM intervention where if you use magic at a significantly high force it draws attention. Kinda like jedi going "I sense a disturbance in the force"
Now that it's been explained that the signature is locational so what does that mean for detecting?
eg. let's say mr mage blows someone up with a force 12 direct spell (or if you think it's low sub a higher number).
1) would mages immediately be aware as if the magic equivalent of a cannon went off?
2) would people be able to see it as if a bomb went off on the astral or would they need to be in range to assense the person/location?
3) let's say the mage cast this in a building. Astral vision doesn't go through inanimate objects. Does casting things inside a building, regardless of force, remain invisible to people outside?
Thanks guys!
Given the amount of arguing I've done recently on this very topic, I have the rules governing your question memorized down to the page number (SR5 280).
Short version: If it's a spell being cast that isn't impossible to miss (like a fireball), yeah it's ALMOST as obvious a bomb going off at F12. If the spell is subtle enough to require a perception check keep in mind there's a minimum threshold of 1. So it's technically possible for someone to still fail to notice an infinite force spell if they have enough environmental/situational penalties to their perception check.
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Hey there Devil Rat
Thanks for reply. So I'm aware that there's a threshold for noticing spells. Skill - Force, and something more convoluted for adept powers (especially with the mentor's mask).
What I kinda mean is, under what circumstances would someone get that perception check.
Let's stick to direct spells for now because indirect ones have impact on meat space. Suppose there were a mage on the opposite side of the harbour from our mr mage. Mr mage casts a significant distance away from our observer and he is within a building.
Does our observer:
1) not get a chance to notice because mr mage is within a building and astral vision doesn't pass through solid inanimate objects?
2) not get a change to notice because he is facing the wrong way or a significant distance away?
3) get a change to notice because a ripple on the astral emanates from our mr mage?
I guess the issue here is that whilst there are rules for noticing the magic, there aren't rules that govern a radius from the caster depending on the force of the spell. In a similar circumstance, there isn't necessarily a distance dictated for noticing gunfire, and it doesn't have a table increasing the threshold as distance increases. In that instance however it is up to the GM to dictate environmental elements and the fact that sound travels.
Now for magic and the astral, it doesn't say that a signature has a size or resounds across the astral. Only that it is on the caster and the location cast (arguable if it's an AOE then the location is also of that size).
How do you treat it in your games? If someone nukes their target with a force 12 stunbolt do all the magic sensitive people in the city for a 1km radius suddenly perk up their ears? Do you let the affect of the spell travel and do you allow objects to obstruct it?
Ta
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Well I'm thinking the subject of perceiving magic is something that there's a bit of forum fatigue on right now. If you want to hear lots of very divergent ideas about how perception is supposed to work, check out this thread (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=27292.0) and get comfy. It goes for a while.
I gave you a short answer in my first reply. The longer answer is "there's some very different opinions about that."
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LOL this is true. I kinda lost steam following that thread. Thanks mate. I'll just chalk it up to GM fiat and discuss with my group what is a reasonable outcome.
Mages get boned on plenty of things. Still though, outside of rules, what do you do on your table?
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At my table: If it's not that nasty a spell (e.g. blowing up a dozen people in one go) that it causes a Background Count, a simple attack spell wouldn't be noticed from a distance, especially not with walls in the way. But inside, until the signature is cleaned up it'd look nasty yes. Still nothing that triggers 'brr something happened here' but something easily assensed.
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RAW says, if you are watching the caster, when he casts the spell you get the perception check, this includes directs. You may, or may not know exactly what was cast, but assuming your were successful on the check you know the magic user cast a spell.
Indirect don't need to be discussed, they are all going to be obvious.
If you do not have LOS on the caster you don't get the perception check. That said, something are obvious, and you don't need a roll to see the obvious. so if the caster cut loose with huge indirect AoE blows out the side building and kills a bunch people he's stand there over the smoking hole and bodies I'm comfortable calling that very obvious.
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Guys, is he not asking about the astral ramifications?
1. No, not automagically.
2. If they have line of sight to the astral signature, they could potentially see it. I'm not sure if there is a rule for how the Force of a spell mechanically affects how well you see the signature.
3. See 2. No line of sight, no ability to sense the signature.
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Unless you do something nasty enough to cause a background count to spring up there is no I sense a disturbance in the force just from casting spells. After that I generally equate Assensing to the Perception skill just for Astral space and unless the rules give specific guidelines I basically handel what you can see and not see the same. That being said there is a moderately large body of specific guidelines around Assensing and how astral space works. The Skill - Force equation is for Perception tests to notice spells being cast, this is for non astrally active people to notice magic going on. If you are astrally active and have line of sight(important to note this is Astral line of sight as what blocks line of sight in astral space is a little different then meat space, i.e. You can see through normal windows in meat space but they block astral line of sight.) to some one when they cast a spell, its pretty automatic that you know they cast a spell and a nice flashy spell aura appears in astral space followed by a residual spell signature that will linger for some amount of time based on the force of the spell, generally 1 hour per Force of the spell involved but there are a number of things that can modify how long a spell signature lasts. Now while knowing they cast a spell might be automatic, what the spell was is not. That requires an Assensing test followed up with an Arcana test to ID the spell. The Assesning test depending on how well you do can tell you alot but mainly your looking for the school of magic. The Arcana roll lets you use that to info and some other things to figure out what spell was cast, note I give people bonuses for spells they know. This is also assuming that the effects of the spell are not blatantly obvious such as the results of most of the combat spells. If you see a spell aura followed by a big ass lighting bolt frying some one its a safe bet some one just cast lighting bolt, and I dont think dice need to be involved. If however you are not directly observing the spell being cast and instead are just reading the spell signature some time in the future I go back to the Assensing and Arcana test to figure out what went down.
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In my home game I've gone with the 'sense a disturbance in the force' type option, but that is a conscious deviation from RAW as I understand them. RAW I think there is just 'perceiving magic' and asensing the spell happening (or the signature that it left, after the fact)
I put that in place in my game because of counterspelling. Counterspelling does not require asensing the spell, and in fact nowhere that I found in the book does it even require you to be able to see, hear, or otherwise sense the spell. So how do you know there is a spell to do anything about? My rule is that part of the counterspelling skill is being able to feel mana being gathered/channeled/whatever for a spell. There needed to be a range so I said caster or target within magicx10 metres. And if you are asensing and have los on caster or target and can buy sufficient successes you know the type of spell, force, etc before deciding to counterspell or not.
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Hi Mollari
Astral Signatures only show up in astral space. It is sort of the unique fingerprint of active spells and active foci and projecting magicians and summoned spirits etc (really anything magic that have a tangible form in astral space and not just an aura).
Astral Signatures does not show up on the physical plane at all.
What do high force spells/spirits look like on astral?
You don't really look at all when using astral perception. It is a psychic sense, separate from your physical senses. Some magicians describe the astral as seeing while others describe auras and astral forms as tasting differently or that they experience the astral as sound. The book simply use "seeing" as an analog because it work most of the time.
SR5 p. 312 Astral Perception
Many Awakened characters can perceive the astral plane from the physical world. This ability is called astral perception. It is a primary sense used in the astral plane that allows you to “see” auras and other things in the astral world overlaid on the material plane. Astral perception is available only to some; for metahumans you can only use astral perception if you’re a magician, or an adept with the Astral Perception power. Technically, astral perception isn’t vision—you don’t need working eyes to see in the astral plane—but vision is the easiest metaphor to use.
SG p. 28 Astral Topography
When discussing the nature of magic, it’s also important to consider the nature of the astral plane. The astral is a confusing place to the untrained. Life illuminates and emotions color a grey and shadowy mirror of the physical world. When astral projecting, you do not hear the din of the physical world, nor can you read written words. Technological displays and holographic images don’t exist even as shadows on the astral plane. All the lifeless objects in the physical world appear as dull and intangible shadows to astral forms, allowing them to easily pass through. Details on these objects (color, texture, smell) are almost impossible to understand; a book’s words are impossible to read, as is the context of the writing unless it’s tied to some emotion that the character can perceive. All life has intangible auras that illuminate the astral world, while emotions can color them. Emotions can also color non-living objects if they have some significance to metahumanity (individually or as a whole). Within the silence, the magician can hear the crackle and hiss of mana being drawn into a spell or the subtle harmonies or cacophony of aspected mana as it flows through the astral plane.
At least, that is how it seems to me. Astral perception is a psychic sense, so where I see and hear light and sound, others may interact more through taste or texture. Your experience in the astral very much depends on who you are.
Having said that; all active spells and active foci and projecting magicians and summoned spirits etc (really anything magic that have a tangible form in astral space and not just an aura) are obvious. You don't require a test to sense them. You basically only need to pick up some dice if you want to analyze a specific aura or if you want to sense an astral form that is trying to hide.
SR5 p. 313 Astral Perception
Like physical perception, you don’t need to make a test to see things that are immediately obvious (and since astral forms are bright and vibrant, this means that most astral forms are easy to spot). You only need to roll the dice when your target is trying to hide or when you’re trying to observe in detail—then you make an Assensing Test to see what you can see.
We've always had a soft sort of GM intervention where if you use magic at a significantly high force it draws attention. Kinda like jedi going "I sense a disturbance in the force"
Any active magic will be obvious. It doesn't require a test to sense an active spell while you are using astral perception. However, game mechanic wise it is actually pretty hard to tell just how powerful the magic source is.
First of all you need to actually focus a split second assensing the subject (so you don't automatically sense if the source of magic is powerful or not).
Second you need at 3 hits just to tell if the force or magic rating of the subject his lower, equal or higher than your magic rating. This is also as many hits you need to sense any astral signatures on the subject (which you can use for astral tracking back to its owner). You need 4 hits if you want to know the exact force or magic rating of the source.
It is actually not entirely clear if this also applies to active spells or if high force active spells are "more" obvious to sense than spells with lower force as you describe it, but I have not seen anything to indicate that active spells (that have actual astral forms) would behave differently than say an active focus (that also have actual astral forms) in this regard.
Unless anyone find anything different I will continue to assume that to find out the force of a spell you need to use the Assensing table on p. 313.
let's say mr mage blows someone up with a force 12 direct spell (or if you think it's low sub a higher number).
1) would mages immediately be aware as if the magic equivalent of a cannon went off?
Spirits can always only use astral perception. They can never use physical perception, not even if they materialize.
Magicians (and Adepts with astral perception power) cannot (ever) use astral perception and physical perception at the same time. They have to pick one. EITHER they use their astral perception (which is a psychic sense) OR they use their normal physical senses (seeing, hearing, touching, smelling and feeling).
The only exception to this is critters with the Dual Natured Critter Power (they get to use both physical perception and astral perception at the same time).
SR5 p. 395 Dual Natured
They can perceive and interact with the astral plane like characters using astral perception (see Astral Perception, p. 312). Being dual natured, though, is different from astral perception in that a dual-natured critter always senses both the physical and astral worlds; they don’t have to shift back and forth (and, in fact, cannot do so). Their minds are accustomed to processing both astral and physical sensations, so dual-natured critters don’t suffer the –2 dice pool modifier for interacting with the physical world while astrally perceiving.
While using your normal physical perception (magician or not) you have a chance to "see" that the magician is casting a spell (twitchy finger or whatnot). To do this you need line of sight. You take a regular physical perception test (visual specialization apply) with a threshold equal to (the magicians magic rating - force of the spell) with a minimum threshold of 1. You don't know what type of spell is being cast, just that the the guy over there might or might not be casting a spell. If you are the subject of a subtle manipulation spell you may also take a regular perception test (numinous specialization apply, this is a specialization to perception that mundanes can take) to verify if you "sense" the feeling of chills, dread, or other unnatural sensations you can’t quite put your finger on.
SR5 p. 292 Manipulation Spells
A victim of mental manipulation spell may roll to notice the magical effect according to the usual rules for Perceiving Magic (p. 280). Some of the less subtle mental spells (Control Actions) are pretty obvious, but more subtle spells (like Control Thoughts) can be pretty insidious.
SR5 p. 314 Astral Detection
This specialization of Perception is called Numinous Perception, which includes both the chilly tingle of astral forms and the “bad vibes” of noticing magic (p. 280).
While using astral perception active spells are obvious and you don't even need to take a test to notice them.
2) would people be able to see it as if a bomb went off on the astral or would they need to be in range to assense the person/location?
In the astral the active spell will be obvious and does not even require a test to sense, but I can't find anything indicating that it would be "more" obvious than a lower force spell
3) let's say the mage cast this in a building. Astral vision doesn't go through inanimate objects. Does casting things inside a building, regardless of force, remain invisible to people outside?
Yes.
Suppose there were a mage on the opposite side of the harbour from our mr mage. Mr mage casts a significant distance away from our observer and he is within a building.
The observer need to either use astral perception OR physical perception. He cannot use both at the same time unless he is a natural Dual Natured Critter.
1) not get a chance to notice because mr mage is within a building and astral vision doesn't pass through solid inanimate objects?
2) not get a change to notice because he is facing the wrong way or a significant distance away?
3) get a change to notice because a ripple on the astral emanates from our mr mage?
He doesn't get a chance to notice because there is a mundane wall between the active spell and the observer using astral perception. The observer would automatically notice the spell if he used astral projection and "poked" his head through the mundane wall.
Note that astral perception is a physic sense. It is not limited to the field of view of your physical eyes. In fact you don't even need working eyes at all to use astral perception. There is actually nothing indicating that you only may assensing auras that are in front of your physical body (except maybe that they often use the metaphor of "seeing" when talking about astral perception).
I guess the issue here is that whilst there are rules for noticing the magic...
Noticing Magic only apply for physical perception. You cannot take this test while using astral perception. However, while using astral perception most magic is obvious and you normally don't require a test at all to sense it.
In a similar circumstance, there isn't necessarily a distance dictated for noticing gunfire, and it doesn't have a table increasing the threshold as distance increases.
Actually, distance for hearing gunfire act as a negative dice pool modifier (table can be found at SR5 p. 135)
As for visual based perception tests (such as noticing a magician casting a spell) you use environmental factors (table found at SR5 p. 175).
How do you treat it in your games? If someone nukes their target with a force 12 stunbolt do all the magic sensitive people in the city for a 1km radius suddenly perk up their ears? Do you let the affect of the spell travel and do you allow objects to obstruct it?
To sense all astral signatures on the subject or on the location from where it was cast an astral investigator need 3 hits or more on his astral perception test (this can be used to track the original magician with astral tracking, see SR5 p. 315). With 4 hits he would sense that the signature came from a combat spell.
People in the vicinity would probably notice that the magician was putting a lot of effort into casting a power spell. It would basically be as obvious as noticing a neon sign. They might also see the victim as he is cooked from the inside out and falls screaming to the floor. People 1km away would notice nothing.
Astral perceiving or astral projecting magicians in the vicinity would automatically sense the spell as it was cast. They might also sense the victim as his aura become super colorful of emotions right before the light fade away. Astral magicians 1km away would notice nothing.
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Epic response Xenon. Two thumbs up! ;D
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Beta in the past they have described counter spelling as mana chaff. Basically you dont need to be aware of the spell, you just need to have spent the free action on your turn counter spelling. This represents the time and effort your spending sending out random mana ripples and disturbances in your local mana sphere. When a spell hits the disturbances in the mana sphere it degrades the spell by knocking it off course and or disrupting the flow of mana in the spell. How well you do this is your counter spelling skill and how much of an effect it has on any given spell is determined by how many dice you allocate and how well you roll.
Think of it like a mana smoke grenade, if i pop smoke I dont need to know your there. You will have a harder time seeing me and therefore have a harder time shooting me with a gun, regardless of what I am doing and whether I am aware of you or not.
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Sunrunner: however, in the example in fifth (which I grant you has problems in other ways) it is pretty clearly using counter spelling in response to a spell being cast, and the rules do seem to read (IIRC, not with my books right now) that the dice apply to resisting a specific spell, not adding to next spell resistance or spell resistance for the rest of the turn. So mechanically, not like a smoke grenade. (I'll try to remember to crack out my old 2nd edition book to see how it worked there, for compare and contrast, but pretty sure I've not read that section in 2nd in 20+ years)
So that loops back to 'how do you know that a spell is being cast? Do you have to see the caster? Be asensing? See a physical effect starting (but then what about non-visible spells)?
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Xenon's answers pretty much sum it all up! Indeed an epic post!
For me, when it comes to counter spelling, I always make the player make an assensing check (or more specifically, the player has to tell me they're making one- if they don't then they obviously aren't paying attention to the astral). They need to be aware that something is at least happening before counter spelling.
At basic success, they're aware that energy is purposefully moving around, so they can make the attempt to alter/weaken that movement. They don't know what it is or who/what may be doing it. However, if it isn't a teammate, then odds are good it's not beneficial for the group. This makes background ratings important- particularly if it is in relation to being on a mage/shaman's home turf. Such energy movement would be more difficult to notice if it seemed like it was a natural part of the environment (which for the 'home turf' mage, it would be).
Higher successes yield more information about it, from who/what is casting to what they're trying to do.
I have also allowed the 'smokescreen' counter spelling, It doesn't require assensing since it's just intended to be disruptive in general, but it takes two hits to equal one counter spell die in that case, affects everyone in range, and they have to maintain it. Since it's more broad and general (like the ripple effect SunRunner mentioned) it's a little more haphazard in its approach.
As for how I explain the Astral, I read way too many comics in the 70's and 80's, and ran too many White Wolf Mage games to not get trippy with the descriptions of the Astral. I'm also big on "flavor". Something cast by an owl shaman will appear very different from a hermetic mage, for example, and may affect different senses in the perception. While the same spells from each would have similar astral characteristics that any magician can identify (with an appropriate assensing check) each carry their own flair that denotes their training and even the caster themselves (depending on hits for that information). If you describe it well enough, the player will start figuring it out for themselves what traits may be involved with whom, and maybe even the type of spell.
For summoned spirits, I often associate the 'raw' energy of their plane of origin first, then follow up with more details depending on hits. I also kind of tailor the Astral plane to the perceptions of the one assensing. A sense of warmth may indicate a fire spirit of some kind, where a nauseating wave of heat may indicate a toxic spirit, for example. Again, doesn't have to be visual.
Most 'Astral Signatures' in my descriptions are like blurry after-images of what happened, slowly fading like that spot in your vision if you look at too bright a light. Again, doesn't have to be visual, but that's what I have in mind regardless of I'm describing it.
I use similar techniques when describing the Matrix. I enjoy making each layer (meat, matrix, and magic) have their own feel (and language descriptors) that helps players get in the right headspace, and make it interesting and entertaining for the characters that aren't there or can't assense so they get something out of it as well. I remember reading about an AR advertisement that had a mild simsense emotion attached to it, and thought that was pretty neat. The viewer obviously could tell the emotion wasn't theirs, but did recognize that it existed. The Matrix is more visible to be sure, but I occasionally have someone program in things like that (IC transmitting the sense of threat, for example) It's mostly flavor without necessarily any mechanical repercussions, but it's fun, and my players seem to enjoy it. :)
Crunch~
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When talking about Counterspelling you are probably talking about Spell Defense (you also use Counterspelling for Dispelling).
In this edition Spell Defense is actually declared at the time you (or anyone in your line of sight) are being targeted by a hostile spell (during the Declare Action phase of the hostile magician) or as soon as you (or anyone in your line of sight) are called upon to oppose a spell (if for example your movement put you in the area of effect of a sustained spell). You may declare Spell Defense as a Free Action (which you are allowed to take out of order, but normally only once per action phase) or as an Interrupt action costing 5 initiative score (which you are also allowed to take out of order).
Game Mechanic wise there does not seem to be a requirement that you need to be using Astral Perception or Notice Magic with a regular perception test or even have the offending magician within line of sight to use spell defense. In fact you are even allowed to spend a Free Action or Interrupt Action to declare Spell Defense as soon as you walk into the area of effect of a Detect Enemies spell (even if you are unaware of the spell and you don't even see the subject that is sustaining the spell).
SR5 p. 294-295 Spell Defense
Spell Defense Spell defense is used against hostile spells cast at you or at targets that are within your line of sight (using the same rules as for targeting spells) that you decide to protect with spell defense. Declaring this protection is either a Free Action or, if you don’t have one left, an Interrupt Action that reduces your Initiative Score by 5. Each Combat Turn, you have a pool of dice for spell defense equal to your Counterspelling skill. When a spell is cast, you may choose to use some or all of your Counterspelling dice to defend against an incoming spell. Against each spell attack, you have to choose how many dice from this pool to allocate for defense, and you can select how many people (including yourself if you desire) are covered by these defensive dice. You can protect a number of people at one time equal to your Magic Rating. These dice are then added to the defense tests of everyone you’re covering. The pool refreshes at the beginning of each Combat Turn.
SR5 p. 285 Detection Spells
Counterspelling may be used to defend against active detection spells, even if the target is unaware of them being cast (for example, if they walk within range of an active Detect Enemies spell).
Counterspelling cannot be used to defend against a passive sense, but once an opposing spellcaster realizes there is an active sustained spell, she can try dispelling it (see Dispelling, p. 295).
SR5 p. 295 Example
Chordae’s team is fighting a wiz gang. She has a Counterspelling skill of 7, which means she has 7 bonus spell defense dice to use each Combat Turn. Early in the Combat Turn she is targeted by a Manabolt spell, so she decides to use 3 Counterspelling dice to help fend it off. As a result, she adds 3 dice to her Defense Test against the spell.
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Sigh. ....another example of 5th edition hosing up and not fixing it.
This essentially allows a mage and by extention the whole group to more or less bypass the rules for noticing magic since the GM is basically required to inform the mage that there's a spell incoming and do you want to use spell defense? Same thing if they walk into the range of an active detection spell. And presumably this works the other way around when the PC mage uses magic against any adversaries with a mage in their group.
And also what actually constitutes a hostile spell? Because this has some ramifications.
So all mages DO apparently sense disturbances in the force or have a tingling magic spidey sense. This worked so much better in 4th edition. .......
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We've always had a soft sort of GM intervention where if you use magic at a significantly high force it draws attention. Kinda like jedi going "I sense a disturbance in the force"
I'm not going to touch the rest of this, because X already gave it to ya. (See what I did there? ;D )
On this particular note, however, I feel like I should mention spell "Detect Magic" (SR5 Core p. 287) and the "Magic Sense" (which does the same thing, SG p. 172) adept power. They seem to, mechanically, be meant to give the character exactly this ability because the character should not already have it. Basically, it sounds to me like the group is being given one or both of these for free. As a player, score! As a GM, be careful what you give away, but it's your table.
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Sigh. ....another example of 5th edition hosing up and not fixing it.
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So all mages DO apparently sense disturbances in the force or have a tingling magic spidey sense. This worked so much better in 4th edition. .......
Out of curiousity, how did it work in 4th? (I'm not in love with how it is working in my game, even with house rules -- open to other options for house ruling it)
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This essentially allows a mage and by extention the whole group to more or less bypass the rules for noticing magic since the GM is basically required to inform the mage that there's a spell incoming and do you want to use spell defense?
Note that you are generally not allowed to spend the Free Action (or Interrupt Action) necessarily to use Spell Defense while you are Surprised
SR5 p. 163 Free Actions
A character may only take a Free Action prior to his first Action Phase in the Initiative Pass if they are not surprised (see Surprise, p. 192).
SR5 p. 167 Interrupt Actions
A character may only take an Interrupt Action prior to their first Action Phase if they are not surprised (see Surprise, p. 192).
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1st to get counterspelling dice to help resist a detection spell or illusion they must have spent the action on spell defense before they encountered the spell.
2nd when your using spell defense against anything your not aware off, I.E. resisting a detection spell or an illusion spell for instance its a 4th wall problem, and ALL role playing games are littered with 4th wall meta gaming problems. its the same boat of it the GM starts asking everyone to make perception tests, the party immediately knows something is up. D&D is no different when the DM starts having eveone make will saves etc., when as far as the party knows they are just walking in the forest or some other supposedly harmless environment. The only thing spell defense changes is that the party knows what ever is up is magical in nature specifically and can generally apply meta game knowledge on the nature of the unknown based on the resistance test its self, but then they kinda got that as soon as the GM starts making everyone roll dice. There is not a alot of call in the game to roll Logic + Willpower except to resist spells, same with Logic + Intuition, which between those to rolls you have covered resisting all Illusion spells, all Mental Manipulation spells, all active detection spells, as well as most of the Critter powers that have similar effects.
And remember there are two specific and different uses of the counter spelling skill, 1st is spell defense which is mana chaff and the 2nd is actually honest to goodness counter spelling which is directly targeting a spell you are aware of and trying to disrupt it.
Its why as a GM it can be a good idea to know your players stats and roll the resist checks for them. Combine this will compulsively rolling dice all the time and they dont know when its for real or when your just rolling dice. The flip side is to call on your players to roll different dice pools (Perception, Logic+Will, Logic +Intuition) frequently even when nothing is up. I tend to go with the 1st option as the 2nd tends to reduce the players to paranoid schizos convinced they are being stalked by an army of invisible ninja assassins and can drag the game down.