Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: David Chart on <09-13-10/0119:44>
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I'm a bit puzzled by the BP costs for Metavariants. Take the Oni. It costs 5BP more than a baseline Ork, but the only difference between it and the baseline Ork is that the Oni has the +5BP Negative Metagenetic Quality Striking Skin Pigmentation. On the other hand, the Satyr, with the same BP cost, gets the 10BP Positive Metagenetic Quality Satyr Legs as its difference from the baseline.
Now, it's possible that these have been errata'd in the latest printing, as I see that the Karma Build System has, but if not, I'm a little confused.
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Metavariants costs are not really calculated by boni and mali (although it does seem to factor in rougly), but more like "How often do they appear in the world?". And yes, most people think that this is rather stupid.
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So Changelings are as common as muck, then? (As their costs are calculated straight off the boni and mali.) ;)
I'd wondered whether the costs were supposed to reflect frequency, but the existence of Changelings made me think it couldn't be. Looks like something for house rules, then. Thanks.
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And yes, most people think that this is rather stupid.
Signed.
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Assumin it's a combination of the race advantages and frequency, I find it pretty clever, it's very effective ; in the 3rd Ed, finding an Ork character in the conventions I went was an exploit, on the other hand a table without at least one troll was somethin rare too. Now the races proportions among players fit more with wath the background says, and enforces its credibility. I appreciate it, though I don't say it's perfect : basic humans for example ain't interesting enough compared to orks (well, maybe orks are a little bit unbalanced : too much advantages, too few flaws), though there should be more humans among players than any other meta.
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So Changelings are as common as muck, then? (As their costs are calculated straight off the boni and mali.) ;)
I'd wondered whether the costs were supposed to reflect frequency, but the existence of Changelings made me think it couldn't be. Looks like something for house rules, then. Thanks.
Well, Changelings are a special case...and ARE more common then Metavariants....(I mean...I read more mentions of
Changelings in the newer SR stuff then I do Metavariants...) It is also probably a thematic issue. Look, for instance, at
the reputation of the different Meta Variants, and figure that is going to show up in game. In fact, I can see the 5
point cost for Oni over standard Ork in Japan because: they are at least a Japanese Metatype, not one of those barbarian
ones(still scum...but they are, at least, culturally correct scum), and in other countries, it might be possible for an Oni
to play up the knowledge of Yomi to garner some sympathy, and, of course, Japanese Johnsons might be more inclined
to "like" the Oni then a regular Ork....
Changelings, though...what unstated boni do they have through fluff?
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Assumin it's a combination of the race advantages and frequency, I find it pretty clever, it's very effective ; in the 3rd Ed, finding an Ork character in the conventions I went was an exploit, on the other hand a table without at least one troll was somethin rare too. Now the races proportions among players fit more with wath the background says, and enforces its credibility. I appreciate it, though I don't say it's perfect : basic humans for example ain't interesting enough compared to orks (well, maybe orks are a little bit unbalanced : too much advantages, too few flaws), though there should be more humans among players than any other meta.
Among players, certainly. ;) Personally, I don't think PCs should reflect the background proportions of the game-world population. Most of the world are not shadowrunners, but finding a non-shadowrunner PC is really, really hard. Obviously. In any case, no group of 4 to 6 characters can be representative of a population with several dozen racial variants, so ideally the costs of various character types should balance, so that you choose based on your concept. That's obviously difficult to pull off; picking a baseline human should not be a poor decision.
As for numbers, it looks like orks are about 13% of the population (about 40% are non-human metahumans, and orks are more common), so about 10% of the population of Japan are oni, compared to 1% of people being Changelings. In any case, Satyrs are cheaper than they "should" be based on what they get; are they supposed to be more common than baseline orks?
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Assumin it's a combination of the race advantages and frequency, I find it pretty clever, it's very effective ; in the 3rd Ed, finding an Ork character in the conventions I went was an exploit, on the other hand a table without at least one troll was somethin rare too. Now the races proportions among players fit more with wath the background says, and enforces its credibility.
Unfortunately, you are wrong, as credibility has NOTHING to do with it: A group of runners is never a representative cross section of the population, so your argument doesn't fit. The rules shouldn't be meant to enforce a certain "spreading" of species, as the rules are meant to create ONE GROUP of runners - and this group can be statistically totally inprobable. As all the other player groups out there DO NOT exists in the same universe there is no statistical problem. So the rules should not care about it.
The rules should base costs on the advantages and disadvantages of a template, to make them comparable. That's the point of BP. Including random values to enforce a certain amount of humans is not a good idea. A group consisting of four oni isn't llogicl - just unlikely. And as everyone who has every played in to lottery will tell you: Unlikely things can happen. Imagine EVER player group playing shadowrun consinsting ONLY of oni. Would that make the world illogical? Nope, because the groups don't exist in the same universe. In the universe of each of these groups, THEIR oni-only group is special, of course, because for each group their group is the ONLY one consisting of oni. The oni-only groups of all the other players exist in their own, similar universes (where they all are really special).
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Unfortunately, you are wrong, as credibility has NOTHING to do with it: A group of runners is never a representative cross section of the population, so your argument doesn't fit. The rules shouldn't be meant to enforce a certain "spreading" of species, as the rules are meant to create ONE GROUP of runners - and this group can be statistically totally inprobable. As all the other player groups out there DO NOT exists in the same universe there is no statistical problem. So the rules should not care about it.
True if you always play with the same group. Not if you play with a lot of different groups, with a lot of characters meeting each others from time to time, which I do. If you play in conventions, a too obviously oriented racial composition among runners breaks the background credibility, I felt it in 3rd edition, and I really appreciate the difference between 3rd and 4th edition
The rules should base costs on the advantages and disadvantages of a template, to make them comparable. That's the point of BP. Including random values to enforce a certain amount of humans is not a good idea. A group consisting of four oni isn't llogicl - just unlikely. And as everyone who has every played in to lottery will tell you: Unlikely things can happen. Imagine EVER player group playing shadowrun consinsting ONLY of oni. Would that make the world illogical? Nope, because the groups don't exist in the same universe. In the universe of each of these groups, THEIR oni-only group is special, of course, because for each group their group is the ONLY one consisting of oni. The oni-only groups of all the other players exist in their own, similar universes (where they all are really special).
But nothin in rules impeach the creation of such a group.
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It's hilarious when people complain about the costs of metavariants aren't based on the bonus and negatives that variant gets, when the costs of the parent races arent based on anythink like that either.
BP costs of races in SR are completdly arbitrary and always has been. and really even at 25BP Oni is still a bargain as its an ork variant.
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And yes, most people think that this is rather stupid.
Signed.
+1
and because these Rules are stupid I decided if I want to play a Metavariant , I'll make it via the Surge Rules (allready done it with a male Dryad.It saved me 5 points compared to the variant and I got Astral Perception for free )
Hough !
Medicineman
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I think as (a Newb) the points are to offset the perks of a race. I don't have the rules in front of me but can humans have a statrting strength of 10 (IIRC) without taking a quality, like a Troll can?
I remember in GammaWorld a Pure Strain Human was refered to a Poop Stain Herman. For the simple fact that... WE ARE HUMANS? Playing human is like going to Ben & Jerry's and ordering vanilla everytime you go! We as players choose the meta's because we are bored being human and want some variety. In D&D I kinda wanted to play a human character because for so long I have been anything BUT a human character & was bored with that. One of my favorite characters I have palyed was a human Thief. From Jamaca!
I kinda wish the points weren't required to have a metatype. Shouldn't the Ability score mods be enough to sway a player from being one meta over another. I mean my party has 2 Elves one Human & My Minotaur.
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I think as (a Newb) the points are to offset the perks of a race. ....
but they aren't and thats the whole point.
The Metavariants have been given the Points baseless (right word for "for no reason" ? )
Yes I know that the other Metas are also imbalanced Pointwise, but they should've calculated the Cost to the base metavariant
And what good are the Rules if you can achieve the same Goal(creating a Metavariant) and 1 way is cheaper than the other ?
this enforces Min/Maxing (and in a bad case enforces Powergaming !)
HokaHey
Medicineman
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The BP cost of the races has always been to reflect the rarity of those races within the world (hence why in earlier editions you have the More Metahumans rules).
Changelings, Drakes and Infected characters should be EXTREMELY rare. Changelings make up about 1% of the entire population of the Earth. Drakes and the Infected make up even less than that. People keep on with this idea that because it's listed in the game, everyone should be able to play it, no questions asked. Yes, you could build the Metahumans with the positive/negative qualities, at a much cheaper price. But, the way I see it, 1) you have to get the GM's permission to play Metavariants and other races and 2) there will be a lot of pointing and staring by 'ordinary folk' since you're NOT the norm. Which means that run you just pulled against Ares? Instead of "It was some wizzer with a halfer and two trogs." turns into "Dude! There was this really wierd looking THING with orange skin and intricate horns! Sure, I can give you a complete description, I'll never forget that face!"
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The BP cost of the races has always been to reflect the rarity of those races within the world (hence why in earlier editions you have the More Metahumans rules).
Which basically noone cares about. We are the players. The heroes. We want to play the cool stuff!
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Changelings make up about 1% of the entire population of the Earth
just for the facts its 2 % (and ca 10 % in Seattle )
thats twice as much as awakened and how many of these are in your Grooups ? ;
Which basically noone cares about. We are the players. The heroes. We want to play the cool stuff!
Doc Chaos is totally right. As long as it does not interfere with the GMs Adventure
(Troll streetpunk in an Tir Taingire Elvencourt High Society Spy Adventure) we should play whatever we want !
2) there will be a lot of pointing and staring by 'ordinary folk' since you're NOT the norm.
thats why they all get distinctive Style "for free" ;)
even those that are quite ordinary, those that have no external Feature at all
Hough !
Medicineman
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One problem could be, that Shadowrun simply HAS no possibility to compare orcs to elves, for example. Nobody can say what point value "+1 max Charisma", for example, has, because it's not the same as the quality given in the sourcebook. This is why I prefer GURPS, there you can exactly tell how much points a certain race should cost... *sighs*
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Doc Chaos is totally right. As long as it does not interfere with the GMs Adventure
(Troll streetpunk in an Tir Taingire Elvencourt High Society Spy Adventure) we should play whatever we want !
No problem, who stands in your way ? talk about it with your GM.
Now, Catalyst gives a ruleset supposed to fit with the basic-classic background and style of gaming, including frequency of metavariants in their BP cost, I think that's a good job, but they never said you had to respect it.
You want free metavariants, or characters build with 1000 BP ? okay, why not ? that's just not the basic-classic game.
Which basically noone cares about. We are the players. The heroes. We want to play the cool stuff!
Oh, yeah, but you know, old rule, if everybody's cool, then nobody's cool.
I find it better if metavariants stay rare, or the game quickly turns into a ridiculous freakshow. But "if that's what you're into…"
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Changelings make up about 1% of the entire population of the Earth
just for the facts its 2 % (and ca 10 % in Seattle )
thats twice as much as awakened and how many of these are in your Grooups ? ;
From Seattle 2072:
Population: 3,000,000+
Human: 66%
Elf: 13%
Dwarf: 2%
Ork: 16%
Troll: 2%
Other: 1%
So, in Seattle, they'd be at less than 1% since that 1% contains Changelings, Infected, Awakened Sentients, etc.
My point in the whole thing is that if you want to play with more Metahumans, then change the BP values for the Metahumans. Instead of trying to rebuild them using positive/negative qualities, sit down with the GM and explain that you want to play where Metahumans aren't as rare, so can we a) lower the costs or b) get rid of the costs entirely?
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Which basically noone cares about. We are the players. The heroes. We want to play the cool stuff!
Oh, yeah, but you know, old rule, if everybody's cool, then nobody's cool.
[/quote]Or... You are unique and special. Just like everybody fraking else!
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Or... You are unique and special.
Never needed an exotic metavariant for this, just a little bit of work on your character and interpretation.
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Also. Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw in the fact that if you use the alternate character creation system using karma listed on pg 41 of the Runner's Companion... then metavariants are free, and so you can therefore be the cool guys and the heroes and all that jazz, in addition to not having to worry about the creation system trying to 'force' PCs to fit into the correct demographic spreads. Personally, I find that making characters using that system makes them a bit too buff, but i suppose that could easily be fixed by making a few tweaks to the math, such as having attributes cost 'new rating x4 or x5' or some such.
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Also. Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll just throw in the fact that if you use the alternate character creation system using karma listed on pg 41 of the Runner's Companion... then metavariants are free, and so you can therefore be the cool guys and the heroes and all that jazz, in addition to not having to worry about the creation system trying to 'force' PCs to fit into the correct demographic spreads. Personally, I find that making characters using that system makes them a bit too buff, but i suppose that could easily be fixed by making a few tweaks to the math, such as having attributes cost 'new rating x4 or x5' or some such.
Or by charging them to increase from 1 instead of the racial minimum.
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@Fast Jack
I just consulted my German sourcebooks
Runners Compendium (pg 60 )says 2% of the Populace in Industrialized Countries have to be classified as Surged , but( confusingly ) 1 Page later that only 1 % has to be classified as Changeling
and....(Schattenstädte ?) has listed 10% of Seattles Inhabitants (300.000) as Changelings on Page 64. But that was Shadowtalk
so we were both right :D
I just wanted to clarify that
HokaHey
Medicineman
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Maybe an explanation : SURGE and changeling ain't really the same, since SURGE also occured some classic goblinizations. May explain the gap between the 2% Surged and the 1% Changelin, what you think ?
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From Seattle 2072:
Population: 3,000,000+
Human: 66%
Elf: 13%
Dwarf: 2%
Ork: 16%
Troll: 2%
Other: 1%
So, in Seattle, they'd be at less than 1% since that 1% contains Changelings, Infected, Awakened Sentients, etc.
Nope. Changelings are not an own metatype or species. An orc with wings who looks like a fairy is still just an orc. A human with horns is still just a human. So the 66%+13%+2%+16%+2%+1% = 100% contain the Changelings. The Shadowtalk estimates 10% - any why not? Most effects will be pretty small, probably not even noticeable without a closer inspection. And the 1% is just a guess anyway - who knows REALLY how many ghouls, shapeshifters, etc. live in Seattle?
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after reading it a 2nd (and 3rd) Time I think 2 % are all Metavariants (maybe including Sentient Critters ?) but I'm not quite shure
the shadowtalker assumes a lot of Surge Refugess from Cas and Ucas because of Seattles Reputation as a "save heaven for Freaks and other Strangeties"...until Brackhaven became Mayor
JahtaHey
Medicineman
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I think that players will always play the type they want to and be damned the statistics. I mean for all anyone knows Usda is the only Minotaur in Seattle. Players will probably never care what the HMFICs say is the right mix, because they aren't running the table being played at.
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and because these Rules are stupid I decided if I want to play a Metavariant , I'll make it via the Surge Rules (allready done it with a male Dryad.It saved me 5 points compared to the variant and I got Astral Perception for free )
Well the think is, my normal female Dryad(calling a male that just doesn't make any sense, even if you surge one and give him same qualities) still has the full 35 point limit availeble for positive and negative qualities.l
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Your'e totally right with the qualities argument
But for me it was more Important to have a "fair" Char than full amount of quality Points
(calling a male that just doesn't make any sense,...
but You have to give Him a Name
I think mother Nature did plan for male Dryads, right ;)
with a natural Dance
Medicineman
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The BP cost of the races has always been to reflect the rarity of those races within the world (hence why in earlier editions you have the More Metahumans rules).
Changelings, Drakes and Infected characters should be EXTREMELY rare. Changelings make up about 1% of the entire population of the Earth. Drakes and the Infected make up even less than that. People keep on with this idea that because it's listed in the game, everyone should be able to play it, no questions asked. Yes, you could build the Metahumans with the positive/negative qualities, at a much cheaper price. But, the way I see it, 1) you have to get the GM's permission to play Metavariants and other races and 2) there will be a lot of pointing and staring by 'ordinary folk' since you're NOT the norm. Which means that run you just pulled against Ares? Instead of "It was some wizzer with a halfer and two trogs." turns into "Dude! There was this really wierd looking THING with orange skin and intricate horns! Sure, I can give you a complete description, I'll never forget that face!"
Well, no, actually. Ogres and satyrs are cheaper as metavariants than as point cost, and ogres are 30% of orks in Europe while satyrs are dominant in Greece, so if you're playing there it's "it was a wizzer and a satyr". Changelings, of course, cost exactly what the points say.
I'm not complaining that the metavariants are too expensive, I'm puzzled that the relative costs seem to be all over the shop.
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The "rarity" argument doesn't quite hold up for me, because there are metavariants that should be equally rare that are bargains compared to the baseline metatype. Wakyambi and satyrs are both bargains, getting 10 points' worth of positive qualities for a 5 point increase in metatype cost. Oni cost 25 points more when the only difference between them and standard orks is a disadvantage. Ogres cost the same as standard orks and get an extra advantage. You can't even factor in "they stand out in a crowd" for all of the metavariants, since ogres and fomori are actually less brutish in appearance than standard orks and trolls.
In short, if you look through the metavariants, some of them are very cost-effective to play, some come out about even, and others are overpriced for what you get.
I guess it doesn't bother me as much because I am not really that interested in the ones which happen to be gimped. If I were GMing and a player complained, though, I would probably drop the costs for some of the worst cases, such as oni or xapiri thepe.
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um if you look in the list at the end of the runner's companion you will find a list of Meta variants that also have the Oni points at 20.... i saw something at dumpshock that it was the intended cost! Just food for thought though :)
Ork------------------- 20------------------ p. 72, SR4
Hobgoblin---------- 20------------------ p. 72
Ogre----------------- 20------------------ p. 72
Oni------------------- 20------------------ p. 72
Page 181
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Most effects will be pretty small, probably not even noticeable without a closer inspection. And the 1% is just a guess anyway - who knows REALLY how many ghouls, shapeshifters, etc. live in Seattle?
I'm a fan of the Surge I combination of biocompatability (cyberware) and Slow Healing. It makes good internal sense, and it's certainly not something that an observer could pick out of a crowd. Hardly the freaky-deeky changeling that is so hot on the club scene.
Anyway, statistics really shouldn't matter too much. It's up to a GM to decide how many _____s there are in that particular 6th world. Adjust accordingly.