NEWS

Probably a good idea to tune in. If you like neat stuff.

  • 239 Replies
  • 46135 Views

Tecumseh

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3940
« Reply #15 on: <05-01-19/0211:08> »
Bobby / Complex Action has a good (and humorous) preview of some of the changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtcHfpf5SQU

The summary is, "The overall theme is to streamline and simplify." That said, they still quantified the level of crunch (on a scale of 1-10) as a 7.0 or 7.5

Highlights in addition to what Stainless Steel Devil Rat outlined:

Combat
- Initiative is rolled once at the beginning of combat
- Free Actions are gone
- Simple/Complex Actions are now Minor/Major actions
- You earn additional Minor actions per turn based on your Initiative dice, which can be converted into Major actions at a 4:1 ratio
- No more situational modifiers, as these have been rolled into the Edge system (which sounds similar to combat/astral/etc. pools from 1E-3E)
- Recoil and Accuracy are gone
- Firing modes (SS, SA, BF, etc.) are more of a trade-off between doing extra damage while making it harder to hit (rather than easier to hit with more rounds fired)
- Weapon ranges are now more like Anarchy (e.g. five broad ranges/buckets) rather than specific ranges in meters for each weapon type
- Driving & Vehicle Chasing is much easier, vehicle attributes redone, crash damage is completely overhauled
- Healing is easier now, and order no longer matters

Hacking
- MARKs are gone
- Hacking is now a direct action, rather than needing special access first
- There are separate Matrix skills for legal and illegal actions
- Commlinks are for legal actions, cyberdecks are for illegal actions,
- Cyberdecks are much cheaper now

Magic
- For combat spells, you can choose your damage and AoE before you cast, which impacts your drain
- There's no more separate soak roll for drain; it's now a result of the spellcasting test (example given: Drain 6 - Spellcasting Hits 4 = 2 boxes of drain)
- No more sustained spells, there's a duration instead
- No longer need to declare Counterspelling, which is no longer a skill of its own (now based off Spellcasting)

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #16 on: <05-01-19/0322:44> »
To be honest, I'm going to miss Limits because they were a nice balancing measure, especially Accuracy which added a nice extra difference between weapons and Physical, which punished me for munchkining by making my Stealth harder. But Social was bluh, Mental not a problem with gear, and with simplifying things it makes sense to ditch it.

I kinda dislike the sound of the weapon range thing, but we'll see how it turns out exactly. As long as my intended mini(ature)-games will still work, I'm good.

Driving and Vehicle chase, thank god. Matrix, thank god. Situational, I'm guessing that's going to be 'hey this is a risky situation' instead of a detailed calculation. More Minors sounds nice. Duration spells sweet. Firing modes makes me wonder if it's a SQR-thing or will be like that in the final rules (I know QSR rules tend to simplify some rules.)

I should listen to the interview but no time, got today reserved for my wife.

And last, my brother looked into the future and wrote down some criticism of SR6 (read: he made shit up without even seeing the announcement):

- spellcasters are OP
- Edge is useless
- hacking is too powerful
- there's too many gear choices
- summoners are OP
- Edge is too powerful and too hard to get for non-Humans
- hacking takes too long
- all the good gear is prohibited at chargen
- magic is useless unless you can do all of it
- Magical Girl still isn't a Tradition
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #17 on: <05-01-19/0523:43> »
Listening to the podcast with JM Hardy, currently 37 minutes in, let me recap what I've heard so far (I might be slightly off):

- Rulebook 300 pages excluding index/etc (in contrast to 465 of SR5)

- No more chargen gear-limits
- Skillgroups are now skills (e.g. Agility+Firearms)
- Instead of tons of modifiers, you now get Edge instead
- Edge can be spent on moves that cost 1~5 points
- You start a session with your Edge rating in edge
- Can gain max 2 Edge per turn
- Can never exceed 7
- After encounter (e.g. combat) is done, you are decreased to your Edge rating if over it
- Combat: Attack Rating of weapon (depends on the range category) vs Defense Rating (Bod+Armor), difference of 4+ means extra Edge point
    (So example: Ares Predator at 10 Attack-Rating for the first two range categories will score Edge against Body 3 plus Armor Vest which is 3)
- Things like gear/qualities/visual circumstances (dark and only 1 side has Low-Light Vision) will also provide Edge
- 1 Edge-use option named: Make enemies count 2s for glitches
- Another edge-use called (not 100% sure if it's an example or an actual use) is use # points to reroll # dice
- 1 Edge-use per action still (but some Edge-uses allow using extra points for higher benefit)
- Lower damage ratings, but armor doesn't feature in the soak roll (so Armor is only in Defense Rating, not in the soak roll)
- Example: Ares Predator = 3P + Net-Hits, roll Body against it
- Soak-autohits augmentations/qualities exist

...

- Expensive Edge-use named: Healing 1 point of damage
« Last Edit: <05-01-19/0527:19> by Michael Chandra »
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
« Reply #18 on: <05-01-19/0856:12> »
I see a lot here that I don't like.

>Free Actions are gone
I shouldn't have to explain why I don't like this.

>Recoil and Accuracy are gone
All my favorite gun mods are now useless, and I'll bet they were everyone else's favorite gun mods too.

>Firing modes (SS, SA, BF, etc.) are more of a trade-off between doing extra damage while making it harder to hit (rather than easier to hit with more rounds fired)
So now going FA is a dicepool penalty that I have no way of reducing? Great. Fantastic. Guess I'll just stick to single-shot weapons from now on.

>Weapon ranges are now more like Anarchy (e.g. five broad ranges/buckets) rather than specific ranges in meters for each weapon type
So I may as well snipe with a pistol instead of a sniper rifle? Boooooo.

>Lower damage ratings, but armor doesn't feature in the soak roll (so Armor is only in Defense Rating, not in the soak roll)
This makes armor almost pointless.

>Edge edge edge edge edge edge
Real streamlined. I'm sure looking forward to keeping track of my edge minute to minute and memorizing all those new actions I'm going to have to spend edge on.

Is this an out of season April Fools joke? Catalyst will be lucky if anyone even bothers to pirate books for 6th edition, let alone buy them.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #19 on: <05-01-19/0944:27> »
To be honest, I'm going to miss Limits because they were a nice balancing measure, especially Accuracy which added a nice extra difference between weapons and Physical, which punished me for munchkining by making my Stealth harder. But Social was bluh, Mental not a problem with gear, and with simplifying things it makes sense to ditch it.

I kinda dislike the sound of the weapon range thing, but we'll see how it turns out exactly. As long as my intended mini(ature)-games will still work, I'm good.

Driving and Vehicle chase, thank god. Matrix, thank god. Situational, I'm guessing that's going to be 'hey this is a risky situation' instead of a detailed calculation. More Minors sounds nice. Duration spells sweet. Firing modes makes me wonder if it's a SQR-thing or will be like that in the final rules (I know QSR rules tend to simplify some rules.)

I should listen to the interview but no time, got today reserved for my wife.

And last, my brother looked into the future and wrote down some criticism of SR6 (read: he made shit up without even seeing the announcement):

- spellcasters are OP
- Edge is useless
- hacking is too powerful
- there's too many gear choices
- summoners are OP
- Edge is too powerful and too hard to get for non-Humans
- hacking takes too long
- all the good gear is prohibited at chargen
- magic is useless unless you can do all of it
- Magical Girl still isn't a Tradition

Most of that sounds like no change. Except for 3 points. 1 hacking is OP? 2 Edge is useless? and most confusing 3 edge is OP? So is it useless or OP?
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #20 on: <05-01-19/1002:51> »
this sounds horrific.

it's like catalyst through in the towel and said "lets make anarchy-lite"

the "constantly tracking a changing edge stat" seems particularly nutso to me.

no surprise though i guess...

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #21 on: <05-01-19/1008:40> »
this sounds horrific.

it's like catalyst through in the towel and said "lets make anarchy-lite"

the "constantly tracking a changing edge stat" seems particularly nutso to me.

no surprise though i guess...

I admit i'm very concerned about the 1 and 2 glitch thing. The moment you make glitching as likely as success you have manage to remake the disaster that was storyteller. The better your character is at something the more likely they are to glitch. That is a totally terrible thing, and makes a game unplayable.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Linkdeath

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 254
« Reply #22 on: <05-01-19/1029:04> »
this sounds horrific.

it's like catalyst through in the towel and said "lets make anarchy-lite"

the "constantly tracking a changing edge stat" seems particularly nutso to me.

no surprise though i guess...

I admit i'm very concerned about the 1 and 2 glitch thing. The moment you make glitching as likely as success you have manage to remake the disaster that was storyteller. The better your character is at something the more likely they are to glitch. That is a totally terrible thing, and makes a game unplayable.

Actually, I believe what was meant is that you can spend a certain amount of your Edge points to MAKE your enemy have to count 2's as glitches FOR THAT ONE ACTION. Maybe more, but I think that would be plenty powerful enough right there without going full-on nutso.

That said, I'm not sure constantly tracking Edge points and having to remember the whole list of things I can do with that is *much* better than having to track all those situational modifiers. I'll have to see it in practice.
Dance to the tension of a world on edge.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #23 on: <05-01-19/1032:41> »

Actually, I believe what was meant is that you can spend a certain amount of your Edge points to MAKE your enemy have to count 2's as glitches FOR THAT ONE ACTION. Maybe more, but I think that would be plenty powerful enough right there without going full-on nutso.

That said, I'm not sure constantly tracking Edge points and having to remember the whole list of things I can do with that is *much* better than having to track all those situational modifiers. I'll have to see it in practice.

I said what I meant to say. GMs have no resource limit. So if this in the cards then every attack action or comparison test could easily be subject to this.

Unless you're trying to say GM don't get to use edge on NPCs?
« Last Edit: <05-01-19/1055:19> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1948
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #24 on: <05-01-19/1117:25> »
I’m not making any judgements until I’ve played with the new edition, and by nature I try to look on the bright side.

After listening to the Shadowcaster network podcast, where they talk with Mr. Hardy, I heard a few things that I like. 

They set themselves some constraints early in this edition, apparently:
-   Rule book no more than 300 pages
-   Keep the d6 dice pool mechanism
-   Still allow highly varied character creation
I do really like that.  Sprawl of the rules, and the words-to-content ratio, of fifth edition were personal peeves of mine.  And I think a focus on keeping things shorter and more concise generally forces you to look at the value of pretty much everything you are putting into the rules.  That should create a bias toward broad systems and minimize fiddly little extra rules.

Edge (the ‘luck’ system) is gone.  Oooookaaaay, .  Edge is a super-power in 5th, and its use becomes a meta-game.  One that we’ve all gotten used to and mastered and dumped karma into.  It sounds like the ‘luck-lord’ build will be gone, which will make converting some characters or character concepts difficult.  But any rule version changes creates some issues of this sort.

Edge, a new meta-game currency for situational advantage, is pervasive throughout the new rules.  Down side, a new metagame currency.  Upside, it seems to roll in everything from light levels to armor to social effects.  Apparently all uses of edge are listed on one page, hopefully they are flexible enough to make them useful in a broad range of situations.  Well, I did say that I wanted less fiddly little rules and more broad systems.  I’ll have to play with it to see how I like it.  I have particular concerns about how it works in non-confrontation situations, where the old edge (luck) system helped smooth out a lot of issues.  You know, the decker with 3 agility and 2 sneaking was part of the group that had to get past an observer and, the player would either pre-edge the roll or re-roll fails if the roll wasn't great -- yes failure can be interesting, but sometimes you just want to get to the main thrust of the story.

Armor isn’t going to be as effective and getting hit is going to hurt more on average, by the sound of it.  This will make Body more valuable, I think (will have to play to make sure), which could make the tougher metatypes a bit more interesting.  Will have to see how this plays, but it sounds reasonable.  One of those things that will take a bit to get used to, and I may come near to killing characters by accident early on until we get a better feel for threat levels, but overall I don’t see it as a good or bad thing, just a thing.

It sounds like the initiative system is changing quite a bit, probably downgrading the criticality of boosting initiative  That may create a big change in character creation/upgrade priorities.  Some people love being blazing fast and I think they may hate this – one of their favorite things may no longer be one of the absolutely most impactful options both in games and in terms of getting to do more things as a player.  Personally I like the change, as I’d like boosted initiative to be impactful, but as one of several impactful options, not one that you are a fool not to follow.

Actions go from free, simple, complex to minor and major.  They haven’t discussed much of what each can do, but I have heard that attacks are major actions, movement takes minor actions, four minor actions can be converted to a major action, and boosted initiative gives extra minor actions. Depending on how flexible and interesting minor actions are, it will help color how I feel about initiative I think.

There is a new rule to support grouping grunts into a single attack roll.  That sounds nice!

There are modular spell components, so that when the Magic splat book comes out they will include a spell design section.  All spells in the CRB will be built in accordance the spell building rules.  That sounds like a win to me.

Combat spells start with a given damage and drain, and you can amp up the damage while casting, by increasing the drain appropriately.  Likewise the area of effect can be increased.  Elemental effects apparently have much clearer effects, and the modular system could let you add more than one elemental effect (a thunder and ice storm?).  These effects cause a status condition, and these status conditions are defined more globally.  Healing spells can have the ability to clear various status effects.  But no real information about other types of spells, or spirits, or alchemy.  So, this is wait and see for me, with still a lot of concern as illusion and manipulation spells tend to be my favorites.

Matrix info has been listed already, pretty much.  I’m a bit concerned about the new ‘cyber-jacks’ as they will apparently provide a lot of your matrix defense, with decks being more the ‘offense’ side of things.  I’m worried that this will make them de facto necessary for hacking.  There had been an ability to make unaugmented hackers in fifth (wasn’t optimal, but was playable), that I rather liked.  I’m worried that these new rules are going to kill that off.

Character creation apparently opens up meta-humans more.  Still a priority system, but meta-humans can be played at any priority level.  Hardy said meta-types may have less differences at character creation, but show their differences more as characters advance.  Which may be less good for one shorts and short campaign arcs, but is very interesting for longer campaigns.

On the flip side, opening up gear availability right at character creation should help short arc games more.  And the gear section is apparently fifty of the three hundred pages, so no, they haven’t abandoned the gear porn aspect of the game that we know and love.

Overall, some things that I like the sound of but won’t really know until I can play with them, plenty of changes that I really don’t have an opinion on until I touch them, and a few that have me concerned but that I’m willing to wait and see the details on.  For sure it all adds to the game changing, but I’m still trying to be optimistic that the changes will be net for the better.
« Last Edit: <05-01-19/1129:38> by Beta »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #25 on: <05-01-19/1120:49> »
I've lately been badmouthing Limits as being poorly realized as a game mechanic, and I suppose the 6E designers/playtesters came to the same conclusion.

In all honesty I'm excited to hear about the direction they're aiming for in 6E.  I've played Shadowrun long enough that 5E wasn't "Shadowrun" in my view, but just the current iteration of it. And I've been playing RPGs of all stripes to understand that some edition churn is inevitable, since the publishers do need to turn a profit afterall.  5E had a good run, and longer than most of its predecessor editions at that.

I was of the opinion that something after 5E was always inevitable, but I'll be honest and admit that I bought into the misconception that Anarchy was "6E" and that a more "conventional" Shadowrun would continue to live on in 5E.  I'll admit that my stomach was in knots when I first heard about 6E, but I didn't get the details until most of us did last night. And I'm saying as someone who was worried about the notion, I'm not just relieved but excited about what they're saying they want to do in 6E.  Sure sure, we'll have to wait to see if it lives up to SUCCEEDING on those goals, but I like the stated goals.  Because c'mon, let's not overlook that 5E had bloated into something rather unattractive.  Anecdotally, I participated in a Gaming Convention this past weekend where SRM was all longtime Shadowrun veterans. I haven't had opportunity to teach Shadowrun to a newcomer for quite a long time, but this weekend I got to look at 5E from the eyes of a novice.  And since the newbie played a pregen, we didn't even have to go down the rabbit hole of character generation. 

Like most of us, I like the options and crunch. But I do feel like there comes a point where too much of a good thing is a bad thing.  I like the notion of cutting out some (or even a lot) of deadwood. FFS streamline the game so it doesn't take an hour or more per combat round. I'm excited to see 6E.
« Last Edit: <05-01-19/1124:20> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Fedifensor

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 329
« Reply #26 on: <05-01-19/1124:00> »
So, um...will the Neo-Tokyo Shadowrun Missions stay 5E until the campaign finishes, or will the campaign convert to 6E (a process likely to be painful and confusing for everyone involved)?


If we don't convert, Missions isn't promoting the new products (one of the big reasons for its existence).  If we do convert, how many players does Missions lose in the process?  This is why I wasn't expecting a new version until 2021...


Having just paid for all the relevant modules for HeroLab, I suspect I'll be rather annoyed if everything I bought is useless by the end of the year.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #27 on: <05-01-19/1124:44> »
Why do people keep saying edge is gone, but then in the next sentence say edge is everywhere?

Peeps it cannot be both gone and everywhere, that doesn't make any sense. As Edge is obviously not gone, so explain it's mechanics.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
« Reply #28 on: <05-01-19/1126:10> »
My impression of some of the changes that have been made public this far (including listening to the active play of the 6th ed quick start rules):

Soak roll Body only: Concerned

Overall, I am in favor of smaller dice pools. Even with reduced damage though, soaking with only a single attribute + ware/qualities seems as though it will make combat significantly more lethal. If there are more miscellaneous options in said ware/qualities than I am anticipating, then perhaps this might turn out ok. That said, armor rating only mattering for if the attacker gains a bonus edge or not really seems to negate the value of armor. If hit, most everything will simple be one or two shot.

Spellcasting and drain roll the same roll: Dislike

The main thing I don't like about this is that a single bad roll will result in devastation. As it currently stands in 5th, you can potentially cast your spell very well but suffer big drain damage, or maybe your spell doesn't cast so well but also doesn't hurt you. With this new system, you can end up with a situation where not only did your spell not do anything, but you also roasted yourself because of a single bad roll. At least in 5th it takes two bad rolls for that to occur.

Spell duration instead of sustain: Like

It will depend on the specific calculation for those durations, but overall, I like this idea much better.

New edge system: Mixed

I think the idea is cool.

The implementation seems to slow combat down, though. On every single action, on every single character, you will have to compare attack value vs. defense rating to see if extra edge are applied. Then you have to look at the situation and see if either side has advantage. Then you have to decide if you want to spend any of that edge for maneuvers. Every single action.

Decker actions changes: Love

No more marks, no more multiple turns that will result in the combat being over before you are done. Just pick your action, make your roll, and implement the result? Yes please.

No more skill groups / skills folded together: Like

So many of those skills were already so close to the same thing that I am very pleased to see the list just folded in and narrowed.

"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #29 on: <05-01-19/1128:49> »
My impression of some of the changes that have been made public this far (including listening to the active play of the 6th ed quick start rules):

New edge system: Mixed

I think the idea is cool.

The implementation seems to slow combat down, though. On every single action, on every single character, you will have to compare attack value vs. defense rating to see if extra edge are applied. Then you have to look at the situation and see if either side has advantage. Then you have to decide if you want to spend any of that edge for maneuvers. Every single action.


The 1 and 2 Glitch thing is on maneuvers list I take it?
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking