Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: FastJack on <07-16-19/1553:53>

Title: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <07-16-19/1553:53>
Is that what we want though?

Oooh! Poll question!

Ghost Rigger had asked if we want/like the changes that are coming from 6E or not. So, I'm starting a Poll.

What are you feeling about the new changes?
Title: Re: 6th Edition Poll
Post by: Singularity on <07-16-19/1609:50>
I'm looking forward to them, as is my group.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Banshee on <07-16-19/1617:23>
I am a very bias yes (mostly anyway) 8)
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Lost on <07-16-19/1625:34>
My group and I are really looking forward to the new edition. I'm sure there may be house rules as we have one or two for every game system that we play.
Concerning edge, we are currently playing Torg which has a similar mechanic called possibilities.  If Edge mimics this mechanic it will add an outstanding new dynamic to the game. I, for one, am extremely excited.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Moonshine Fox on <07-16-19/1644:42>
I am cautiously excited. The more streamlined rules do look like they'll be good for getting some of my group back to the table, as they said they love the setting of Shadowrun, but not the heavy crunch. I do still have some worries that keeping me from diving all in on support, and am waiting for the CRB (and core expansion books beyond) to see if my worries are unfounded or not. Overall I've liked what I've seen in the QSR and what I've heard from folks who can't break NDA and tell me things I want to know.

That said if I do drag my group back I'll totally have some house-rules because I've never been satisfied with any system out of the box and have a base need to tweak it in some way ;D
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <07-16-19/1651:27>
What I like:
Faster combat resolution.  Something I absolutely HATED about 5e was how players whose characters only get 1 or 2 passes literally check out of the game during combat.  "Ok I got my one action in.  I'll go and pick up some pizza.. seeya!"  And what's worse.. sometimes they make it BACK even before that one combat round is over.

More interactive combat resolution.  It's no longer about who gets the first hit in.  IMO a back and forth makes for more exciting combat than rocket tag.

Some minor nerfs to magicians.  Imo it's supposed to be a cyberpunk game but with magic.  Not Magicrun where only chumps play mundanes.

Streamlining the matrix. I think 5e was the best edition for integrating hacking stuff with everyone else's stuff (but see how 5e dropped the ball on integration in combat...).  And 6w has the potential to be even better still.

What I don't like:
Spirits still Uber Alles. If you have a summoner on your team, you still don't need a team. His spirits can still do everything the rest of the team was going to do.  (I'm toying around with the feasibility of a SR home game where there's just no oversummoning.  Or maybe even no summoning whatsoever...)

Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: adzling on <07-16-19/1652:06>
I've been quite vocal about my disappointment with 6e.

The game takes place in a future version of this world and as such the outcomes you can expect from your actions should reflect those expectations.

6e does not get anywhere close to that, but rather guts all connection to reality in favor of the rule of cool.

When I want that I will watch Men in Black.

It's a horrorshow of inanity that our table will not engage with.

Sad.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-16-19/1656:35>
WARNING: Tangent ahead.

(I'm toying around with the feasibility of a SR home game where there's just no oversummoning.  Or maybe even no summoning whatsoever...)

If you are dropping summoning, you might consider swapping Starfinder for the rules instead and just ignoring the spaceships part.  Assuming you are not deathly allergic to D20 based systems, it might give you a better fit.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <07-16-19/1935:08>
Very generally speaking:

I've seen the live plays and they haven't excited me.  Rather, they've concerned me.  I stopped trying to watch after the first two or so.  I fully acknowledge they were learning as they went, but that just makes the rollout that much more problematic in my mind.  I would rather have seen a system expert, designer, or demo person run them through it.  No dis intended on the streamers, they did their best, they weren't my issue.

I'm all in favor of streamlining, and I have no problem with the reduced action economy (was thinking of the same thing for a homebrew), and magical admixture effects, simplified hacking, conditions, better structure to the Qualities, all that seems like wins.  However, the game doesn't play the same.  One of the things in the live play was the judgement errors made by the GM and players (not a criticism, they self-admitted to this) as veterans, and it was very punishing.  I could see where Mr J was operating from.  Those were all encounters I could see myself throwing at players. However, in this case, it was nearly a TPK, instead of acting as some spice to the run. With such a newly deadly system, and such fast combats, one bad round of rolls in an imbalanced encounter is going to scrub run after run until word gets around to GMs on how to tone things down.  That means less spice in runs, and less fun at the table.  Fights are too fast and too furious.  Combined fire is extremely deadly, and I would never use it on my players (especially since they don't seem to have a way to return the favor -- may be wrong).  The vehicle rules going backwards to m/ct also annoys the heck out of me.  It's definitely hard for any ground combat game to do car chases well, but what we saw on the live plays didn't feel good.  I want car chases that are nerve-wracking and fun.  This was, well, not that.  It also felt inconsistent, since ground combat eschews dice pool mods, but vehicle combat still has them (and they are crazy high).   

The rule issues pointed out so far seem to me (so far) to be easily resolved with some house rules, as far as I can tell.  However, the Edge system doesn't jazz me at all.  It's also pretty clearly baked into all the parts of the system, as heavily as Limits were in 5E, leaving those who don't like it no choice but to abandon edition (again).  It's progress towards a more streamlined game play, but it doesn't really appeal to me.  It feels like it went too abstract, and to no good effect.  It doesn't help that there's been so much confusion around how Edge is earned and spent, without really any official clarification from CGL.

So at the moment, I am still on the fence about ever getting the CRB.  I feel like I probably won't want to play what's been written.  I like when rules make good sense or are at least close to the mark. At this point, I am only considering buying it to seethe full menu of changes and what I might want to port to a different system.  It still has a lot of 5E feel to what I've seen, and that edition left me so cold I just shake my head to see it still there.  "Everything has a price" and that font just sets my teeth on edge all over again.

Overall, I had to rate this 'Hell No' on the poll.  I do plan to wait and see what some of the reaction is online.  The digital QSR is batting 2 stars on DTRPG presently (that's one 5 star and 5 x 1 stars as of today).  I'm pretty disappointed with what I am hearing so far in general.  Insiders aren't exactly giving off the "ooh yer gonna love it" vibe either.  More the opposite.

So right now, it's a Yikes from me, dog. 

I would love to be wrong. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <07-16-19/2000:08>
I’ve seen multiple times people mention slower characters leaving the table. I’m baffled. Yeah I get that when one person scouts ahead or something. Because it’s a solo gig for x time. But waiting 2 passes is like 5 minutes tops. Where was the mystical problem they were solving happening?

I’m all for making it faster and I actually like the idea of one pass only. But, I’m not buying the story for why it’s a big deal. You can always improve it, but I doubt anyone was walking away bored over a pass or two missed out. Do the street sams head out for drive through when the face is negotiating. Cause face scenes take a whole lot longer than missing a pass or two.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-17-19/0036:03>
I played the Beginner Box with a few things copied from Core (such as the working of the bugged spell cards), and I really like it so far. It feels much more fluent. Unfortunately since I got the Digital Box through agent channels, I can't review it on the site. The system still feels like Shadowrun, but it's less 'I know the math so you don't have to' now, which lessens the burden on me as a GM.

There's a few tweaks I might end up making for a home game, but then again I had... *checks document* a total of 17 houserules and judgement calls when I started my SR5 campaign. I'll need less here. And SR6 pretty much encourages you to run your table the way you like it.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <07-17-19/0114:24>
Update: I downloaded Emu.  I feel like I could play 6E, whereas I don't feel that way about 5E.  In fact, I feel a genuine sense of relief.  However, I noticed that the Qualities all revolve around Edge mechanics.  I'm not particularly down with those points of customization being reduced to just tinkering with how you earn or burn Edge.  However, with no CRB to see, maybe I am worried about nothing?

Is anyone at liberty to comment on whether this is representative of the majority of Qualities?
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <07-17-19/0125:03>
Quite a lot of the qualities do involve Edge either directly or indirectly.  But certainly not all of them.  Very roughly... about half and half.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <07-17-19/0139:32>
Not all dicepool-modifying Qualities are now Edge-tied by the way. There's still a bunch of dice/threshold/etc impacting qualities, and plenty of other-effect qualities.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: kyoto kid on <07-17-19/0221:05>
...somewhere between #3 and #5 on the list above.

Willing to take a look at the CRB when it comes out,  though a lot will depend on how Missions will deal with the changes.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: knppel on <07-17-19/0613:03>
I'll never get away explaining my gm I now can soak damage like an armored troll as my lightly dressed bikini mage. "Hm let's stick to 5th for now" was his first remark. Can't blame him honestly.

I've picked the "Look more core rules" option regardless- I am strongly convinced quickstarter sets and a few online streams/podcasts did not fully reveal the design intent and the so far defined rules, qualities etc. in a spectrum broad enough to seriously judge how it will work out in games long term.

One particular point of critic goes towards the narrators of the metaplot, however. To clarify what I mean, while there's nothing wrong with presenting such over podcasts or rp streams or at conventions, it feels a bit ridiculous to observe already as a spoiled 2019 customer, not to speak of immersing the point of view of a 2080 spectator.
It's like, the matrix in some US cities is down, and the rest of the world stands still- ironically a major narrative flaw for a setting that allegedly will favour a narrative style over the simulation.
Needless to point out, as passionate simulationist I was highly baffled when all info I was able to dig up on how this Blackout-thing would be received in Aztlan, all I got told on discord was basically "We can't tell you anything due to being told to not to talk about stuff".
I get it's like this for UCAS settings suffering from the blackout, and the failure of publicly available information is part of the plot, but still- I can't even roll my eyes as far back as this warrants. Narrow minded narrative perspective much?

Granted, storytelling technically is not related to the rules, but given the general opinion seems to be that SR6 favours a "narrative", action-heavy playstyle over the simulation-aspect, I have to highlight that neglecting the simulative aspects is what causes lore contradictions first hand, as stuff happens "because", and not because someone did it there, then and to achieve this. Blackout, not man-made, some greater evil, sure thing, nice plot. But why does the rest of the world lay the hands in the lap and gawk?
I've now read the other day that it's rumoured now the CAS made moves into Florida to reoccupy lost territory. Ghostwalker? Big Bad A? Anyone? Hello?
This even goes as far as that despite a freaking continent-wide blackout, massive riots were spared out to only take place where it fits a core plot for all I observed. As if everyone owned the best Trid machine by now and looting was a 60's thing. Just no.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Finstersang on <07-17-19/0649:07>
The Good

The Bad

The Ugly
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <07-17-19/0912:03>
I think I can houserule it into working. The question will be will it be easier to just steal a couple of the positives into 5e than houserule this.

Streamlining is good. Other than the one pass thing and maybe the matrix I’m not really seeing it yet. Futzing with edge seems to be slower than modifiers imo. But maybe in play it Streamlined.

If this makes the matrix more useable great. I have players who love the idea of deckers but hate the mechanics.

The spell casting side maybe is a bit more balanced. But spirits seem more broken to me.

Even if it’s streamlined edge does a piss poor job of replacing modifiers for a variety of reasons. Especially if capped at 2 a round. That being said it’s not that hard to slap an effective bonus auto hit on a defense test due to range or wind.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <07-17-19/0941:51>
Anyone else here old enough to remember the D&D 4th rollout on the WotC forums?

Just me?

Whats my point?

Well, I remember a poll like this being put up on their forums.  I have less than zero insider knowledge on both of these polls.  My gut instinct told me that both polls were put up with the same basic intention, and that perhaps they had the same impact.

The shift to D&D 4 was so devicive and so heated that I got the feeling that the forum person who put up the poll was trying to say "Many people like it!  Really!  See?"

This poll is still young, and subject to change.  So far it has see-sawed around the same result.  About as many like it, as hate it.
What the WotC poll had that this one doesn't (at least yet) was a statistically significant larger portion of people giving D&D 4 the "wait and see."  I'm going off of memory, but I am pretty sure that the "wait and see's" outnumbered the likes and hates combined.

Now, I won't go and say the D&D 4 was a failure.  By any objective measure it wasn't (as far as I know).  But by a business standpoint, D&D 4 was so under performing that fans of it practically got whiplash by how fast 5th was pushed out the door.  Okay, I'll own it.  That is more than a little hyperbole.

I'm not saying that Shadowrun Sixth World will have a similar fate to D&D 4.  That being said, there are enough similarities that I am seeing that make me think:  "Hmmmm...  Just maybe."  I don't think Shadowrun has the customer base to make a split like D&D 4th financially viable.

For Catalyst's sake, I hope I am wrong.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: PiXeL01 on <07-17-19/1111:53>
I’d need to actually read them to make judgment. So far I’m not pleased with everything seemingly being about Edge (again though this time different).

But I’ll read and then make my call
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: mortonstromgal on <07-17-19/1456:05>
Please leave the matrix rules per the quick start alone. Yes they need some tweaks but I suspect all that will happen is complication. This is the best martix ive seen per RAW since MR J Blackbook. Leave it be!
Also take the flat edge cap off, make it +3 or +6 or x2 if you must have a cap. Edge should flow like water and reset to base between scenes (like the old combat pool)
Make armor better.
Make rigging better its terrible still, forget hard distances go with short med long etc.
I can live with the rest.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: BeCareful on <07-18-19/0013:50>
So, "Make it easier to get into this," "Improve the state of Rigging," "More user-friendly Matrix," "Make fighting smoother," and "Cast one Force: Huge spell and then take a nap while my allies/spirits scramble over the bodies," are all admirable goals. If SR6 does all of these, great!

"Make combat more back-and-forth," "You/They/Nobody gets an Edge," and "Gain & Spend Edge" are what make me hesitant. I'm okay with combat being resolved quickly, since part of the draw to me was the idea that you can quickly overtake a superior opposition with planning and surprise. It is less exciting, though. I'm guessing that's still possible in SR 6. Also, while gaining and spending Edge will undoubtedly be easy to do and narrate, I still wonder if unrelated gainings and uses will feel disjointed, or if GMs having to say things like, "Doing that won't get you any Edge because we're not in Initiative/that random civilian isn't an Encounter" will be a necessary 4th wall break.

On the whole, I'm still going to suspend my judgment until Core becomes available, and maybe a sourcebook or two after that. Especially if my presumptions about those potential problems turn out to be wrong, they might not be huge, glaring deal-breakers or anything.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: dalien on <07-18-19/2136:31>
Avoiding this edition completely. After I read the Core rules and the Starter box and ran it with a seasoned group no one had any fun at all. The rules are to watered down, making everything an Edge mechanic is terrible, and I am absolutely not cool with the fact that gear is worthless. Part of the game was the struggle to get out of the gutter and get some good gear....now who cares if you have a Panther cannon....it can't kill anyone. Averages are that unless your target is like prone dead on the ground and unmoving they can still make a few net success so a weapon that should be able to blow up a tank  can be shrugged off without any problems.

 Sticking with 5th with a few house rules.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Orcish Librarian on <07-19-19/0011:21>
Yeah, I'm out! I was thinking about going 6e because it seems simpler and less a pain in the butt then 5e (especially concerning character creation), but after making the mistake of buying the digital beginner box I've decided to skip 6e and drop 5e even if that means looking for a new group. The beginner box is so shoddily put together that it infuriates me and I've decided to wait until a 6e crb shows up in the garbage... uh... bargain bin somewhere before even thinking about touching it. I'll go either the hybrid-grognard-way and retool a previous edition for play in the 2080s or do (or use) a full-on conversion to another system.

Anyways, I'm effin outta here after playing Shadowrun from 2e till the end of 5e straight, always upgrading to the newest edition when it came along. I loved 4e so much I even bought the pdf AND the book (sometimes twice, since I'm German). No I'm leaving as a customer. Good job, Catalyst!
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Mirikon on <07-19-19/0119:03>
I'm waiting to see. There are some things I've heard that I like, but others, especially revolving around combat, have me deeply concerned. Armor not helping to keep the bullets from shredding your flesh and a sledgehammer doing the same damage in the hands of a cybered-up troll and a weak-ass teenager with no ware or magic powers, to say nothing of the massive clusterfrag that Edge looks to be has me very concerned. I want the core book in my (virtual) hands, so I can see what is what, but I am skeptical.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Kesendeja on <07-19-19/1653:49>
I'm probably going to move my game to another system rather than update. 5ths a mess and 6th sounds even worse.

Heard you can pull off a pretty good shadowrun in GURPS.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <07-22-19/1945:21>
Changing my "vote" to "Waiting to Hear More".  This edition does a lot of things I wanted it to.  Like, almost everything, plus a couple bonus things I hadn't thought of.  Unfortunately it's doing some things I think old school players are going to struggle with.  Production quality may be an issue again too.  Snippets revealed on Reddit give me knucklemouth.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: topcat on <07-29-19/2202:36>
I started in the third category, but the more I think about it, I'm shifting towards the first.  I have had issues with all editions of SR, but I've loved the franchise since SR1.  I liked SR5 most from a balance and gameplay perspective - every edition really felt like an improvement over the one before it.

After a while to think on it, I feel like SR6 might be a better overall edition - certainly better for attracting new players.  A few issues are weighing it down just like every other edition had its issues.  My hope is that SR6 will be the best available choice, even if it's not perfect, and I'll give it the chance it deserves.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: mcv on <07-31-19/0919:47>
I'm doubting between options 1 and 5. Shadowrun could absolutely use a lot of streamlining, and if SR6 does that right, then that could be great. But I also worry that doing it wrong could hurt the spirit and feeling of the game. I have strong doubts about the changes to the initiative system and how armor will apparently work.

At the same time, it doesn't really matter to me, because I'm not going to be touching the new edition anyway. I just invested heavily in SR5, bought a ridiculous amount of books, and the game I'm running even takes place in the SR4 era. So I can afford to wait until getting into SR6, and I'm not eager to jump into a new system when I'm just on my way to getting a good grip on the old system.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Ange Gardien on <08-06-19/0313:12>
I'm not pleased with the nerfing of the magicians since the fifth edition. I run games with characters having all some kind of magic. The essence of Shadowrun is magic for me. The essence of playing something true for a long campaign is magic (because, you have so many Karma points to spend and so many questions to ask about yourself or the meaning of things).
I liked my mana bolt the hard way, it stunned once a dragon after an epic battle when the koala shaman arrived last minute and was lucky and the dragon unlucky.
This will be my main house rule, keeping the magic the way it was. (I never had the chance to play de Fifth edition, though, hard to find players in my small town, here in France)
The second one will be checking that armors aren't nerfed too and the races.. Because the Troll from the Quickstart is not a troll for me (strengh and constitution are not right, I'm use to first to third edition, a Troll is a troll, with way more strengh and constitution).
The other stuffs doesn't bother or please me.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <08-06-19/0316:52>
I'm officially and permanently at Hell No having seen the book now.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Hephaestus on <08-08-19/1405:16>
I'm in the process of reading through CRB6, and it's pretty meh. Here's a few things I have so far:

- Status effects look really fun on paper, when they stack up on other people (e.g. Dazed and Confused, Wet and Zapped).
- They stripped down a lot of options that were already well developed (e.g. races, qualities, archetypes) and didn't need to be stripped down.
- The combat system is "streamlined", but not any faster. You're just trading initiative passes for more combat rounds, which amounts to no net savings on time.
- Attack Rating and Defense Rating are abstracted qualities that don't feel like they contribute to the game (gaining one edge in a system where augs and qualities already consistently get you more for the same actions).
- Edge reaching across the table. This is hot garbage. My luck should have no ability to actively mess with my opponent's dice pools.
- Gear availability. At chargen, you are limited to availability 7(I). This is almost everything in the gear section. A Decker can start with a rating 6 CyberJack and the second-best Cyberdeck in the game. A Street Sam can have Wired Reflexes 3 (maybe 4) out of chargen. This really makes playing for advancement less relevant. One the plus side, it makes one-shot runs more fun.
- Riggers. Instead of listening to players about the insane costs of being a rigger, they made control rigs MORE expensive and LESS useful. So hopefully other players will buy the Rigger their vehicles, because they won't be able to afford them.

I'll have more as I read more, but unless there is a lot of good stuff I missed, I'll probably be selling off the CRB6 I got from GenCon.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-08-19/1411:33>
I'm in the process of reading through CRB6, and it's pretty meh. Here's a few things I have so far:

- Status effects look really fun on paper, when they stack up on other people (e.g. Dazed and Confused, Wet and Zapped).
- They stripped down a lot of options that were already well developed (e.g. races, qualities, archetypes) and didn't need to be stripped down.
- The combat system is "streamlined", but not any faster. You're just trading initiative passes for more combat rounds, which amounts to no net savings on time.
- Attack Rating and Defense Rating are abstracted qualities that don't feel like they contribute to the game (gaining one edge in a system where augs and qualities already consistently get you more for the same actions).
- Edge reaching across the table. This is hot garbage. My luck should have no ability to actively mess with my opponent's dice pools.
- Gear availability. At chargen, you are limited to availability 7(I). This is almost everything in the gear section. A Decker can start with a rating 6 CyberJack and the second-best Cyberdeck in the game. A Street Sam can have Wired Reflexes 3 (maybe 4) out of chargen. This really makes playing for advancement less relevant. One the plus side, it makes one-shot runs more fun.
- Riggers. Instead of listening to players about the insane costs of being a rigger, they made control rigs MORE expensive and LESS useful. So hopefully other players will buy the Rigger their vehicles, because they won't be able to afford them.

I'll have more as I read more, but unless there is a lot of good stuff I missed, I'll probably be selling off the CRB6 I got from GenCon.
PM me if you're serious about selling.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-08-19/1413:23>
I'm in the process of reading through CRB6, and it's pretty meh. Here's a few things I have so far:
The streamlining is not in that you have less passes but in less paperwork. Easier to handle bonuses, no constant -10 and -5 you have to process. As someone who's actually played it, I can confirm that it DOES save time. Utter newbies took two entire rounds of learning time and then they knew exactly what they were doing.

Edge isn't luck anymore. They were very clear about that. No idea why you'd claim otherwise.

They were very clear why they did that chargen restriction on gear. Opening the toolbox they called it in the very first SR6 interview. Again, no idea why you're acting surprised after they have been publicly open about it from the very start.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: [evo] on <08-09-19/1428:04>
I will stay on Anarchy.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Nightmare on <08-09-19/1543:24>
I'll stay with the plot but stay far away from 6E's rules after reading the corebook....that thing is a mess.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-09-19/1546:45>
I'm in the process of reading through CRB6, and it's pretty meh. Here's a few things I have so far:
The streamlining is not in that you have less passes but in less paperwork. Easier to handle bonuses, no constant -10 and -5 you have to process. As someone who's actually played it, I can confirm that it DOES save time. Utter newbies took two entire rounds of learning time and then they knew exactly what they were doing.

Edge isn't luck anymore. They were very clear about that. No idea why you'd claim otherwise.

They were very clear why they did that chargen restriction on gear. Opening the toolbox they called it in the very first SR6 interview. Again, no idea why you're acting surprised after they have been publicly open about it from the very start.

Its simple
Saying what your doing is "awkward and stupid" Doesn't make it any less "awkward and stupid"
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-09-19/1613:51>
I'll stay with the plot but stay far away from 6E's rules after reading the corebook....that thing is a mess.
Sweet! Do you have a book you want to sell?
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-09-19/1621:15>
Please remember to try and keep criticisms constructive and not just "this sucks."
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Lormyr on <08-09-19/1647:55>
Please remember to try and keep criticisms constructive and not just "this sucks."

Lol really dude, seconds after your snark directly above this post?
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-09-19/1706:52>
Please remember to try and keep criticisms constructive and not just "this sucks."

Lol really dude, seconds after your snark directly above this post?
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Lormyr on <08-09-19/1715:03>
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.

Hey, if that perspective works for you, then you go with that. I just call them like I see them, and you saying what you said to him immediately followed by reminding us to keep it constructive was definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

That aside, I don't think it is unreasonable to objectively call some elements of the book a mess. Needing 10 pages of errata released as the printed copies were already being sold at the con is certainly fair to view as sloppy.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-09-19/1729:30>
I'll stay with the plot but stay far away from 6E's rules after reading the corebook....that thing is a mess.
Sweet! Do you have a book you want to sell?
FastJack when he finds out there's a Sixth World Core book he might be able to buy:
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/af14fbd215e652190ea3c0ce95e4f7e9/tenor.gif)

Not the first time he's asked someone, hope someone will put him out of his misery soon.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-09-19/1756:12>
Please remember to try and keep criticisms constructive and not just "this sucks."

It amazing that you got that from my comment.

The MC was claiming that the poster could not complain about the issues he posted because CGL had stated that this was going to be the case.
My comment was a quote from the nostalgia critic about how this is an invalided point because saying you did something someone else doesn't like on purpose doesn't invalidate his opinion.
So now CGL is going to use rule #7 to silence opposition to the new rule, that's fine.
As I was not directly talking about the game you are wrong, but I expect that this makes no diffrence to CGL.
I expect the ban-hammer to be pulled out at this point to end all opposition to the new rule under shaky rulings.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-09-19/1809:04>
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.

Hey, if that perspective works for you, then you go with that. I just call them like I see them, and you saying what you said to him immediately followed by reminding us to keep it constructive was definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

That aside, I don't think it is unreasonable to objectively call some elements of the book a mess. Needing 10 pages of errata released as the printed copies were already being sold at the con is certainly fair to view as sloppy.

Is there an implicit contrast being drawn to 5e?  Because 5e didn't NOT need a lot of errata... it just didn't get it in a timely manner.

6we isn't any more of a mess than 5e was.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-09-19/1820:02>
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.

Hey, if that perspective works for you, then you go with that. I just call them like I see them, and you saying what you said to him immediately followed by reminding us to keep it constructive was definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

That aside, I don't think it is unreasonable to objectively call some elements of the book a mess. Needing 10 pages of errata released as the printed copies were already being sold at the con is certainly fair to view as sloppy.
Thanks for calling it. tenchi2a made a comment regarding the game that wasn’t constructive, after I had posted more than once to keep criticism constructive, which is a term of service that sveryone agreed to when they created an account on the forums. Even after numerous posters have been warned (officially and unofficially) so that the boards don’t devolve into “the new rules sux! If you like them ur stoopid!” arguments that are not conducive to new players and a welcoming atmosphere for all fans of Shadowrun.

My comment, even with snark was not criticizing the game. It may have criticized the player a little, but I’m chalking it up to the fact that, even with all the complaining and product delays and reported errors, the book sold out at GenCon. I’m still looking forward to it, even if you may not.

I will never censor any opinion of the game (unless using extreme language that’s not family-friendly), because I respect all opinions. But that works both ways.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-09-19/1836:54>
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.

Hey, if that perspective works for you, then you go with that. I just call them like I see them, and you saying what you said to him immediately followed by reminding us to keep it constructive was definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

That aside, I don't think it is unreasonable to objectively call some elements of the book a mess. Needing 10 pages of errata released as the printed copies were already being sold at the con is certainly fair to view as sloppy.
Thanks for calling it. tenchi2a made a comment regarding the game that wasn’t constructive, after I had posted more than once to keep criticism constructive, which is a term of service that sveryone agreed to when they created an account on the forums. Even after numerous posters have been warned (officially and unofficially) so that the boards don’t devolve into “the new rules sux! If you like them ur stoopid!” arguments that are not conducive to new players and a welcoming atmosphere for all fans of Shadowrun.

My comment, even with snark was not criticizing the game. It may have criticized the player a little, but I’m chalking it up to the fact that, even with all the complaining and product delays and reported errors, the book sold out at GenCon. I’m still looking forward to it, even if you may not.

I will never censor any opinion of the game (unless using extreme language that’s not family-friendly), because I respect all opinions. But that works both ways.

And again my comment was not directed at the game, but at the attempted censorship by a forum poster of another opinion.
But if it help you sleep at night to believe I was attacking the game have at it.

As to the sales at GenCon, D&D 4th editions sold out also and we have all seen how that went.

I'll just sit back and watch as the "Hell no" counter keeps raising.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-09-19/1850:41>
Please remember to try and keep criticisms constructive and not just "this sucks."

It amazing that you got that from my comment.

The MC was claiming that the poster could not complain about the issues he posted because CGL had stated that this was going to be the case.
My comment was a quote from the nostalgia critic about how this is an invalided point because saying you did something someone else doesn't like on purpose doesn't invalidate his opinion.
So now CGL is going to use rule #7 to silence opposition to the new rule, that's fine.
As I was not directly talking about the game you are wrong, but I expect that this makes no diffrence to CGL.
I expect the ban-hammer to be pulled out at this point to end all opposition to the new rule under shaky rulings.
Normally, I don't need/have to explain why a warning goes out.

Re-read MC's post. It's detailed and constructive, even if it's not something you agree with.

I know the quote, I'm a fan of NC. But simply posting a quote of a reviewer that goes into great detail as to why he said that, and then not going into ANY detail as to why you feel that way, means that you're not being constructive in your opinion.

We, the Shadowrun Team, are not CGL and we are NOT going to "silence opposition". If we wanted to silence you, all your posts would be deleted, your IP and emails would be permanently banned, and your account would no longer exist. Do you honestly believe that if we were trying to silence you, we would allow all the other posts where forum users have gone into great detail where they hate the new edge system and gave detailed reasons why?

Your post was quoting another poster, implying that you were directing it to the conversation at hand, in a thread discussing the game, in a forum about the game. If you were posting in Off-topic, I wouldn't have even have warned you. But since you were joining the conversation, there are consequences to throwing out comments that could be (and therefore had been) construed as a criticism of the game.

You've got one warning. As far as I remember, it's your first and only warning. To get permanently banned, you either have to consistently break the terms of service seven time within a reasonable time period to get permanently banned. The only exception to this was a user that argued with me about his infractions, then tried to illegally get around those infractions by creating false accounts that appeared to be other forum posters. He got permanently banned and then bitched about me on Dumpshock. You are not like him at all, and I like hearing from you and others that are not fans of the new rules. All of your posts help new players come in and make a balanced call on whether or not they want to purchase them, and I'm also seeing a lot of house rules being written up that will probably even make it into my games.

The only person that gets you banned is you. If we swung the hammer as much as you implied, this would quickly turn into a very empty forum.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-09-19/1854:06>
Ah I just had a giggle about StainIess Steel Devil Rat.

Tragedy + Time = Comedy.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-09-19/1857:00>
Ah I just had a giggle about StainIess Steel Devil Rat.

Tragedy + Time = Comedy.
You remembered what letter he cheated with?! :o
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-09-19/1859:54>
Ah I just had a giggle about StainIess Steel Devil Rat.

Tragedy + Time = Comedy.
You remembered what letter he cheated with?! :o

He actually had me going for a good 2 or 3 minutes that my account was hacked.  You don't forget the relief you feel when you realize the oh so subtle difference in this font between I and l.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Lormyr on <08-09-19/1900:48>
Even after numerous posters have been warned (officially and unofficially) so that the boards don’t devolve into “the new rules sux! If you like them ur stoopid!” arguments that are not conducive

Yeah, passions have ignited and tempers flared around here lately. No argument there. I fully agree that calling someone a name and just saying "this sucks" without offering feedback why are not helpful, but some folks have also been really sensitive of late of any criticism. The fact of the matter is that you can certainly offer criticism without being a jerk, but the very nature of criticizing something is to call into question someone's idea, design, or decision.

For example, numerous times I have stated critique along the lines of "This design decision is nonsensical because x", and "Catalyst does not appear to have learned from past mistakes because x", and so. Me saying that a decision does not make sense or is foolish does not mean I think the designer is stupid - it means I question the specific decision being discussed. On the other hand, I know receiving criticism on something you've worked on isn't fun either.

I’m still looking forward to it, even if you may not.

And there is nothing wrong with that. I hope it proves to be a lot of fun for you. I don't hate 6e, but I do strongly disagree with a number of the game design decisions. My bigger issue is my growing belief that Catalyst is unwilling/unable to learn from past mistakes, or they are ceasing to care about the quality of this title. In particular, seeing Loren Coleman around on video at the GenCon Q&A is intensely disgusting to me, and I truly have no idea how that guy is still with the company or permitted to be involved with game publishing whatsoever. Those are my concerns though - it's not on anyone else to wrestle with those.

I will never censor any opinion of the game (unless using extreme language that’s not family-friendly), because I respect all opinions. But that works both ways.

Also totally fair.


Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <08-09-19/1916:13>
Quote
6we isn't any more of a mess than 5e was

I almost disagreed with you based on the character generation section.  Then I remembered I failed to build a decker the first time out in 5E because of how badly things were laid out and explained. 

I'm not sure the two being equal in problem level is a point of distinction to quibble over for any of us.  Take a step back and think about what we're really talking about.  Two books from the same publisher with so many problems that it takes hard work by fans just to make them usable.   :P 

Yikes.

To be fair to the authors who may be on the board, CGL really let you all down.  I'm sure this in no way is anyone's best work ever, but I don't lay that at your feet.  Process and oversight create messes or prevent them.  Chaotic product indicates chaotic process with iffy oversight.  Sorry this happened to you.  Now you folks will be feeling heat that belongs somewhere else, but those people don't appear to show up here.

On the flip side, I'm actually interested to hear from people how to make this thing work, because I may end up at a table playing it someday, and I don't want to be that guy who whinges about the system while I play.  Any bright spot I can find, maybe I can embrace in the moment.

Edit: My post needed Errata.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-09-19/1934:41>
If one wants to constructively help ensure 6we gets the errata it needs, this early phase is a great opportunity to ask questions and offer suggestions. The thousand or so people who got a gen con copy of the CRB have way more eyes than the writing and errata team.

And I empathise with FJ... I'd totally be asking "well, can I have it then?" when people complain about how they regret having a CRB if I didn't have opportunity to already have a copy myself.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <08-09-19/1941:49>
It doesn't needs errata, it needs a rewrite.  I can't seem to go more than a few pages without a problem cropping up.  That would be my suggestion.  And that genuinely is meant as constructive.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-09-19/2101:56>
It doesn't needs errata, it needs a rewrite.  I can't seem to go more than a few pages without a problem cropping up.  That would be my suggestion.  And that genuinely is meant as constructive.
+1
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: topcat on <08-10-19/1051:51>
6we isn't any more of a mess than 5e was.

The layout and editing is roughly on par, but that's not necessarily a good thing.  Archetypes shouldn't have been in either book until the rules were fnialized, but that's a CGL trademark now.

It feels like SR6 has a lot more errors in core chargen and gameplay when compared to SR5: missing tables, bad numbers, conflicting rules, examples not matching tables, etc.  It desperately needed a review by non-interested parties prior to printing.  Better delayed than... yeah.

If Fallout '76 was a rulebook, it'd be SR6.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: topcat on <08-10-19/1054:52>
It doesn't needs errata, it needs a rewrite.  I can't seem to go more than a few pages without a problem cropping up.  That would be my suggestion.  And that genuinely is meant as constructive.
+1
+1

The good news is that CGL made their self-imposed deadline.  The bad news is how CGL made their self-imposed deadline.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-10-19/1059:14>

It feels like SR6 has a lot more errors in core chargen and gameplay when compared to SR5: missing tables, bad numbers, conflicting rules, examples not matching tables, etc.
Uhm. So did SR5. TONS. Of which most were never resolved. And what did get fixed eventually wasn't as fine grained as the hotfix is doing now.

At least we don't need a word of god twitter account. Plus the errata team is doing a great job.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: topcat on <08-10-19/1112:36>
Uhm. So did SR5. TONS. Of which most were never resolved. And what did get fixed eventually wasn't as fine grained as the hotfix is doing now.

At least we don't need a word of god twitter account. Plus the errata team is doing a great job.

Looking even at my old Origins-edition SR5, it's nowher near as bad as this release.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-10-19/1121:27>
We literally still have raw debates on sr5 rules that sr6 solved with a single paragraph. :-\ People have rightfully complained about the poor editing in SR5 Core. I've been through the entire book and making notes and some sections may be marred with change blindness but I do not at all consider it worse than the hot mess of SR5. Everything you claim SR6 has, SR5 had equal or worse.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: topcat on <08-10-19/1126:25>
Where can we put up items for errata in SR6?
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-10-19/1138:58>
Where can we put up items for errata in SR6?

Here (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?board=12.0).

The errata team is, in what is hopefully an understandable way, rather busy right now so you may not get immediate feedback. Especially if something you mention is already under review as specifics of what's going on with pending errata is still under NDA.

However whatever you put there WILL be seen.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <08-10-19/1752:03>
As amusing as it is watching a fight for last place happen, if a person could deal with what was in 5E, you could at least play it the way it was intended from the gate.  6E cannot make that claim.  The character generation is incomplete, imbalanced, and unclear.  Numerous places it does not have obvious counterbalance rules and clarification statements, and it's outright missing how many tables?  You are literally selling a book of rules that is not correctly nor completely instructing the players on how to play the game, confusing language aside.

The difference is not subjective here, it's quantifiable.  That justifies bolder action than just granular errata.  As I go through this, the only fix in some places is literally to rewrite certain whole sections of the rules entirely to make a rule or concept understandable, and/or to add numerous additional rules and a paragraph or two of explanations to solidify.  That's not a whoopsie-doodle level fix encompassed by the notion of errata.  This is an intervention-level occurrence that warrants its own "stop the presses" type action plan.  Don't let the decision makers evade this reality with excuses and pushback to you.

If you don't see that, I think Stockholm Syndrome is setting in.  That's hyperbolic maybe, but its a true thing that when people work for an abusive boss for a long time, nonsense becomes normalized.  From the outside looking in, This Is Not Normal.  This Is Nonsense.

Get up above this for a minute if you still can. 

You are going to put in hours of uncompensated time and stress for what?  For a game company that is going to turn around and do this to you all over again with the very next release.  You are enabling their disinterest in changing their ways, and paying a price on their behalf.  There's an opportunity here to for them to regain the gaming community's trust and support with a genuine mea culpa, and plea to help them fix the issue, followed by a commitment not to repeat it.  Trying to ride the errata wagon is asking to buy a seat on the bus on the way off the cliff. 

I'm out here screaming because when I was in shoes like these, people tried to tell me to see things like this, and I chose not to, telling myself it could all work out.  Every time.  It never once did.  People still tried, and if I'd listened, it could have been different.  So I'm trying. 

Sometimes is not just okay to say to the boss that they messed up.  Sometimes it is necessary for the good of the business.  5E was not one of those times.  6E quantifiably is.

I wish you all the luck and good words you can find.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Hephaestus on <08-11-19/1156:05>
I'm in the process of reading through CRB6, and it's pretty meh. Here's a few things I have so far:
The streamlining is not in that you have less passes but in less paperwork. Easier to handle bonuses, no constant -10 and -5 you have to process. As someone who's actually played it, I can confirm that it DOES save time. Utter newbies took two entire rounds of learning time and then they knew exactly what they were doing.

Edge isn't luck anymore. They were very clear about that. No idea why you'd claim otherwise.

They were very clear why they did that chargen restriction on gear. Opening the toolbox they called it in the very first SR6 interview. Again, no idea why you're acting surprised after they have been publicly open about it from the very start.

MC, I'm not surprised by these things. I did try to keep up with the pre-release info, and I still tried to keep an open mind. As for your comments:

- There are still many ways to manipulate your initiative in combat, from active status effects to just dropping a couple edge once to somehow become faster for the rest of the combat.

- Edge isn't luck anymore, its advantage. I get that. But when you say my advantage is to reach across the table and mess with my opponents dice pool (even after rolling), then its not my advantage anymore. Its my ability to put my opponent at a disadvantage, and triggers the kind of "gotcha" moments that most people hate. And if we can do it to NPCs, they can do it to us, which just encourages GMs to frag over their players.

- There is a huge difference between "opening up the toolbox" and dumping the thing on floor. In the weapons section alone, there are 84 melee and ranged weapon entries (not counting grenades or rockets), and only 10 are illegal. And not one of them is above availability 6. as a Decker, I can come out of chargen with a rating 6 Cyberjack and the second best Cyberdeck in the game, with money to spare, without converting karma to nuyen. The flip side of this is that Riggers got kicked in the nethers even harder than in 5th. Control rigs are more expensive, and RCCs are the only thing on your network with data Processing and Firewall that cannot contribute to a persona.

The issue with gear really bothers me. While its cool for one-shot adventures and missions play, it kills the drive for gear advancement. If there is nothing to aspire to have, what good is getting paid beyond supporting your lifestyle? Runners are supposed to struggle, to aspire to have more, to want a better life. This system doesn't support that.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: incrdbil on <08-11-19/1304:15>
After looking at the core book at GenCon, the errata..well, I'm going to have to pass on this edition, along with the rest off my playing group. In the end, the bones of 6e, the changes it forces , the basic edge system something I extremely dislike and does not bring enough merit to encourage me to adopt the system.  There are concepts I might fish out of it to apply to my 5e game. Certain source books for adventures and plot,  maybe I'll still purchase, but I might wait for the used market because I don't want my purchases to send a muddled message of support, as thats the only language that matters or is listened to. I've never sat out an edition of Shadowrun before, but I have other games, and its not the end of the world. Not every swing of the bat be a home run, or even a base hit.  Maybe 7e will get the game back on track, and I look forward to that release.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: mortonstromgal on <08-15-19/1140:35>
As amusing as it is watching a fight for last place happen, if a person could deal with what was in 5E, you could at least play it the way it was intended from the gate. 
No you couldn't, dwarves didn't even have thermographic vision for MONTHS after the 5e launch. This is standard CGL, 4e had two different costs for attributes in the core book which they fixed in 4eA. 5e took about 6 months for the pdf to get sorted out and much longer for print runs to happen. 6e is just standard operating procedure for CGL. Frankly each edition with them needs to bake for two years and then come out with a .5 or A or whatever you want to call it.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-19/1202:10>
Wasn't 4e from another company and CGL released 4eA?_?

5e took years before any errata made it into the pdf. =/
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/1425:30>
Wasn't 4e from another company and CGL released 4eA?_?

5e took years before any errata made it into the pdf. =/
1989 - 1st Edition was Fasa
1992 - 2nd Edition was Fasa's 1st Edition with errata
1998 - 3rd Edition was Fasa, then reprinted (2004) by WZGames/FanPro
2005 - 4th Edition was WZGames/FanPro's rewrite
2009 - 4th Anniversary was Catalyst doing an errata on W/F 4th Edition
2013 - 5th Edition was Catalyst rewrite
2016 - 5th Edition Master Index was Catalyst with errata(?)
2019 - 6th Edition from Catalyst
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <08-15-19/1541:09>
Quote
No you couldn't,

I stand corrected.  I fully admit to not being able to complete the process of character generation from frustration with the rules.  Plus it was six years ago. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Hephaestus on <08-15-19/2115:10>
1989 - 1st Edition was Fasa
1992 - 2nd Edition was Fasa's 1st Edition with errata
1998 - 3rd Edition was Fasa, then reprinted (2004) by WZGames/FanPro
2005 - 4th Edition was WZGames/FanPro's rewrite
2009 - 4th Anniversary was Catalyst doing an errata on W/F 4th Edition
2013 - 5th Edition was Catalyst rewrite
2016 - 5th Edition Master Index was Catalyst with errata(?)
2019 - 6th Edition from Catalyst

So, this game has a long tradition of the game creators fragging over their players? I was previously unaware that the bar was set so low for so long. This edition was a chance to prove that CGL could set the bar higher for themselves and come out with a polished product that could engage veteran and new players. But they didn't.

So did SR5. TONS. Of which most were never resolved. And what did get fixed eventually wasn't as fine grained as the hotfix is doing now. 

Fine grained responses are great if there aren't glaringly large issues that need to be addressed first. This edition needs a lot of work. It should not have been released in the condition its in. The hotfix proves this because the things in the hotfix should have been caught in the editing and review phase before the printed version ever went to production.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/2333:40>
Yeah, pretty much from day one, this game was hard to play and had a lot of rules rewrites as time went on, especially with Magic & Matrix issues. But, in all honesty, I play for the setting and stories. I'm liking what I'm reading for 6E and think that it's one of the cleanest versions around yet.

But, it is true they've had a lot of rewrites and versions through the years. In case you haven't noticed there's a lot of companies that have the same long history of "fragging over their players":

Dungeons & Dragons Versions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
1974 - Original Dungeons & Dragons
1977 - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
1977 - BECMI Dungeons & Dragons
1989 - Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition
1991 - Dungeons & Dragons (Rules Cyclopedia)
1994 - Classic Dungeons & Dragons
2000 - Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition
2003 - Dungeons & Dragons 3.5
2008 - Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition
2010 - Dungeons & Dragons Essentials
2014 - Dungeson & Dragons 5th Edition

Call of Cthulhu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Cthulhu_(role-playing_game)#Editions)
1981 - 1st Edition
1983 - 2nd Edition
1986 - 3rd Edition
1989 - 4th Edition
1992 - 5th Edition
1998 - Edition 5.5
1999 - Edition 5.6
2001 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2004 - 6th Edition
2014 - 7th Edition

Vampire: The Masquerade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade#Versions) (Not counting Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, Hunter: The Beckoning, Mummy: The Resurrection, Kindred of the East, and Demon; The Fallen)
1991 - 1st Edition
1992 - 2nd Edition
1998 - Revised Edition
2011 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2018 - 5th Edition

Star Wars RPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Roleplaying_Game#List_of_core_rulebooks)
1987 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (West End Games)
1992 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1996 - 2nd Edition - Revised and Expanded (WEG)
Star Wars (WotC) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_(Wizards_of_the_Coast)#Original_and_revised_editions)
2000 - Star Wars: Roleplaying Game (Wizards of the Coast)
2002 - Revised Core Rulebook (WotC)
2007 - Saga Edition (WotC)
Star Wars (FFG) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_(Fantasy_Flight_Games)#Books_and_supplements_for_the_Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game)
2012 - Star Wars Roleplaying Game (Fantasy Flight Games)
2013 - Edge of the Empire (FFG)
2014 - Age of Rebellion (FFG)
2015 - Force and Destiny (FFG)

GURPS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS#GURPS_history) (Steve Jackson Games)
1986 - GURPS (1st AND 2nd Edition)
1988 - 3rd Edition
2004 - 4th Edition

Paranoia RPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)#Publication_history)
1984 - 1st Edition (WEG)
1987 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1995 - "5th" (3rd) Edition (WEG)
1997 - Unrelease 3rd Edition (WEG)
2004 - Paranoia XP (Mongoose Publishing)
2009 - 25th Anniversary Edition
2014 - Kickstarter Edition

Cyberpunk 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020#Cyberpunk_(1st_edition))
1989 - Cyberpunk (R. Talsorian Games)
1990 - Cyberpunk 2020 (R. Talsorian Games)
1993 - Cybergeneration (R. Talsorian Games)
2005 - Cyberpunk 203X (R. Talsorian Games)
2019 - Cyberpunk Red (R. Talsorian Games)

Traveller (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Versions_of_Traveller#Major_Traveller_Version_Overview) (Game Designs Workshop)
1977 - Classic Traveller (1E Games Design Workshop)
1986 - MegaTraveller (2E GDW)
1992 - Traveller: The New Era (3E GDW)
1996 - Marc Miller's Traveller (4E Imperium Games)
1998 - GURPS Traveller (5E Steve Jackson Games)
2002 - Traveller D20 (6E QuikLink Interactive)
2006 - Traveler Hero (7E ComStar Games)
2008 - Mongoose Traveller (8E Mongoose Publishing)
2013 - Traveller 5 (9E Far Future Enterprises)

BattleTech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BattleTech_games#Board_games)
1984 - BattleDroids (FASA)
1985 - BattleTech, 2nd Edition (FASA)
1992 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
1996 - 4th Edition (FASA)
2007 - Classic BattleTech (Catalyst Game Labs)
2011 - 25th Anniversary Box Set (CGL)
2013 - Introductory Box Set (CGL)

1986 - MechWarrior (FASA)
1991 - 2nd Edition (FASA)
1999 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
2006 - Classic Battletech RPG (FanPro)
2009 - BattleTech: A Time of War (CGL)
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-17-19/1311:08>
Yeah, pretty much from day one, this game was hard to play and had a lot of rules rewrites as time went on, especially with Magic & Matrix issues. But, in all honesty, I play for the setting and stories. I'm liking what I'm reading for 6E and think that it's one of the cleanest versions around yet.

But, it is true they've had a lot of rewrites and versions through the years. In case you haven't noticed there's a lot of companies that have the same long history of "fragging over their players":

Dungeons & Dragons Versions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Editions_of_Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
1991 - Dungeons & Dragons (Rules Cyclopedia): This was not a rewrite it was a consolidation of multiple level of play boxes.
1994 - Classic Dungeons & Dragons : name says it all.
2000 - Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition: first major change in years
2003 - Dungeons & Dragons 3.5: will give you one.
2008 - Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition: was a complete rewrite of the system to get gamers from MMOs (sound familiar)
2010 - Dungeons & Dragons Essentials: Was a consolidation of rules and a manga style pitch.
2014 - Dungeson & Dragons 5th Edition: was WoTCs attempt fix there image after 4th.

Call of Cthulhu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Cthulhu_(role-playing_game)#Editions)
1981 - 1st Edition
1983 - 2nd Edition
1986 - 3rd Edition
1989 - 4th Edition
1992 - 5th Edition
1998 - Edition 5.5
1999 - Edition 5.6
2001 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2004 - 6th Edition
2014 - 7th Edition
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

Vampire: The Masquerade (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade#Versions) (Not counting Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Mage: The Ascension, Wraith: The Oblivion, Changeling: The Dreaming, Hunter: The Beckoning, Mummy: The Resurrection, Kindred of the East, and Demon; The Fallen)
1991 - 1st Edition
1992 - 2nd Edition
1998 - Revised Edition
2011 - 20th Anniversary Edition
2018 - 5th Edition
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

Star Wars RPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_The_Roleplaying_Game#List_of_core_rulebooks)
1987 - Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (West End Games)
1992 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1996 - 2nd Edition - Revised and Expanded (WEG)
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

Star Wars (WotC) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_(Wizards_of_the_Coast)#Original_and_revised_editions)
2000 - Star Wars: Roleplaying Game (Wizards of the Coast)
2002 - Revised Core Rulebook (WotC)
2007 - Saga Edition (WotC)
Star Wars (FFG) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game_(Fantasy_Flight_Games)#Books_and_supplements_for_the_Star_Wars_Roleplaying_Game)
2012 - Star Wars Roleplaying Game (Fantasy Flight Games): Not sure if you are talk about the intro box or the beta book.
2013 - Edge of the Empire (FFG)
2014 - Age of Rebellion (FFG)
2015 - Force and Destiny (FFG)
The last three are different aspects of star wars (fringers, rebels, jedi) and while I don't like it they were up front with the layout from the beginning

GURPS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GURPS#GURPS_history) (Steve Jackson Games)
1986 - GURPS (1st AND 2nd Edition)
1988 - 3rd Edition
2004 - 4th Edition
really, 16 years between 3rd and 4th and you put it on the list.

Paranoia RPG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoia_(role-playing_game)#Publication_history)
1984 - 1st Edition (WEG)
1987 - 2nd Edition (WEG)
1995 - "5th" (3rd) Edition (WEG)
1997 - Unrelease 3rd Edition (WEG)
2004 - Paranoia XP (Mongoose Publishing)
2009 - 25th Anniversary Edition
2014 - Kickstarter Edition

Cyberpunk 2020 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk_2020#Cyberpunk_(1st_edition))
1989 - Cyberpunk (R. Talsorian Games)
1990 - Cyberpunk 2020 (R. Talsorian Games)
1993 - Cybergeneration (R. Talsorian Games)
2005 - Cyberpunk 203X (R. Talsorian Games)
2019 - Cyberpunk Red (R. Talsorian Games)

Traveller (http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Versions_of_Traveller#Major_Traveller_Version_Overview) (Game Designs Workshop)
1977 - Classic Traveller (1E Games Design Workshop)
1986 - MegaTraveller (2E GDW)
1992 - Traveller: The New Era (3E GDW)
1996 - Marc Miller's Traveller (4E Imperium Games)
1998 - GURPS Traveller (5E Steve Jackson Games)
2002 - Traveller D20 (6E QuikLink Interactive)
2006 - Traveler Hero (7E ComStar Games)
2008 - Mongoose Traveller (8E Mongoose Publishing)
2013 - Traveller 5 (9E Far Future Enterprises)

BattleTech (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BattleTech_games#Board_games)
1984 - BattleDroids (FASA)
1985 - BattleTech, 2nd Edition (FASA): where forced to change the name to avoid lawsuit.
1992 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
1996 - 4th Edition (FASA)
2007 - Classic BattleTech (Catalyst Game Labs)
2011 - 25th Anniversary Box Set (CGL)
2013 - Introductory Box Set (CGL)
then standard  spread.

1986 - MechWarrior (FASA)
1991 - 2nd Edition (FASA)
1999 - 3rd Edition (FASA)
2006 - Classic Battletech RPG (FanPro)
2009 - BattleTech: A Time of War (CGL)
About the standard for time between games during the times listed.

not sure what any of this proved.
most was misrepresented, and what wasn't was the standard spread between games at that time.
The issues is CGL releasing a game(s) that are know to need errata and having mechanics issues even before they are printed and sold as complete ready to go books.

So the "fragging over their players" is in response them knowing the issues and going ahead with printing and sale, not the number of editions they have put out over the years which in truth was low for RPG games.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-17-19/1352:51>
You say potato...

My point is you can look at the times between editions, the different publishing companies, any of the factors in the list. When I posted the the Shadowrun list, the first response was that the game owners were “fragging  over the players”, which was not my opinion.

My point is if you like the current edition, you’ll say the list is proof that they worked to improve to get to the current, while if you don’t like the current, you’ll say it’s proof that the developers don’t know what they are doing. In truth, it’s neither, since the gaming landscape is constantly changing and to be successful you have to make a game that people will buy. Even if that means losing long-time fans.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-17-19/1431:55>
I liked playing D&D 4e, but after Essentials, aka 'we dun goofed with MM1 and player progression, and we refuse to admit it, so instead we will release basically 4.25 and force you to rebuy your books', I haven't bought a single D&D book again. So I'd say plenty of companies mess up big time.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-17-19/1549:14>
I liked playing D&D 4e, but after Essentials, aka 'we dun goofed with MM1 and player progression, and we refuse to admit it, so instead we will release basically 4.25 and force you to rebuy your books', I haven't bought a single D&D book again. So I'd say plenty of companies mess up big time.

Don't get me wrong, I hate D&D and WotC.
But I have to give WotC credit.
They realized that 4th was a cluster an tried to fix it with 5th and the open playtest.
I will give you that they milked it for all it was worth first.
And if it was not for it being D&D/WotC they probably would not have survived 4th.

I just don't want to see CGL do this because I don't think they have the ability to weather the same with 6th and survive.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Hephaestus on <08-17-19/1842:18>
So the "fragging over their players" is in response them knowing the issues and going ahead with printing and sale, not the number of editions they have put out over the years which in truth was low for RPG games.

This is an accurate assessment.

You say potato...

My point is you can look at the times between editions, the different publishing companies, any of the factors in the list. When I posted the the Shadowrun list, the first response was that the game owners were “fragging  over the players”, which was not my opinion.

My point is if you like the current edition, you’ll say the list is proof that they worked to improve to get to the current, while if you don’t like the current, you’ll say it’s proof that the developers don’t know what they are doing. In truth, it’s neither, since the gaming landscape is constantly changing and to be successful you have to make a game that people will buy. Even if that means losing long-time fans.

To be fair, I like some of things that this edition has. What I do not like, as tenchi2a said, are the major omissions/poor editing/shoddy game mechanics along with the generally flippant attitude from CGL surrounding the launch of 6th ed (and Sprawl Ops, if you watched their GenCon stream).

I got one of the hard copies from GenCon for $50, and once the SECOND errata drops, I'll have to keep a (most likely) 20- to 30-page document (40+ if they actually include usable examples of things they glossed over) with said book to make it usable. That is unacceptable.

When a company knows that their book is so bad they have to drop a hot-fix at the pre-release stage, they shouldn't be pre-releasing the book. If CGL had any integrity, they would be rushing to reprint the books and getting ready to eat the cost of 850 exchanges. Barring that, the PDF should be scrubbed from the contents to character sheet before it goes live so no errata is needed.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-17-19/2144:54>
I just don't want to see CGL do this because I don't think they have the ability to weather the same with 6th and survive.
In this doomed outlook, Catalyst Game Labs will be fine. The Shadowrun license on the other hand...
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Marcus on <08-17-19/2213:12>
If the License go the way eclipse phase, we can fan release the needed errata for 5th, and run with that until, whomever picks up the licences go through development process again. A couple years is no big deal. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-17-19/2255:50>
If the License go the way eclipse phase, we can fan release the needed errata for 5th, and run with that until, whomever picks up the licences go through development process again. A couple years is no big deal. 
Who's going to pick up the license? Catalyst got it because they were fans that rallied together to make sure it didn't die out the last time. Topps owns the license, and they aren't going to sell it out to someone like Hasbro, so it would have to be another small company or a group of fans that incorporated to produce the material. The only small company I can think of that would buy the license is FASA, so you'd have Modern Earthdawn as the next release. Unless a group of fans like those here can get together money to create a company, purchase the license, then all agree on what the next edition will be like (and I'm sure we can all agree on how the game should be made, right?).
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-18-19/0032:29>
@ FastJack
I was referring to CGL shadowrun line, I should have been clearer.
A 3rd edition revised with lessons learned from 4th and 5th would be great. (Inline matrix turns, etc.)
And the doom saying about FASA is getting old.
I highly doubt FASA would try to push the Earthdawn system on shadowrun players and expected it to sell.
And seeing it connection to the original FASA, I would assume if they wanted the licence they would probably move to 3rd edition as that was the one that FASA produced, and still has a following.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Marcus on <08-18-19/0239:32>
I'm not super worried, SR is a strong IP. If it gets pulled which isn't any sort of a certainty, there is more up and comers in gaming books right now there we have seen in a good while.  SR is certainly more popular then L5R and that's plugged along in the face of several poorly performing editions.  Maybe Pegasus wants a crack at the US market. I'd certainly give their version a look.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-20-19/1710:17>
I'm not super worried, SR is a strong IP. If it gets pulled which isn't any sort of a certainty, there is more up and comers in gaming books right now there we have seen in a good while.  SR is certainly more popular then L5R and that's plugged along in the face of several poorly performing editions.  Maybe Pegasus wants a crack at the US market. I'd certainly give their version a look.

After the Clan invasion KS ($2.5+ million/11+ thousand backers) vs. the Sprawl Ops. KS ($293 thousand/2.6+ thousand backers)I am starting to wonder if CGL is looking at Shadowrun as that other game we have with a little support.
I know from comments by the CGL creative team that CGL is not that big of a company and for the Clan invasion KS they needed to bring in some new temporary full time help to handle the designs and modeling.
So with the overwhelming success of the Clan invasion KS and the mediocre response to the Sprawl Ops. KS, it make me think that if Shadowrun 6th ed. doesn't do well CGL may choose to either drop support for the licence or just throw it some support every once in a while when they're not busy with Battletech.

The point is a major fail here could either kill the line or put it into "redheaded stepchild" mode.
And from what I am hearing and seeing we are well on are way to that.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-20-19/1724:22>
Why would Pegasus want to publish in the US? They are happy taking games produced here and getting the license to translate them to German for the German market. They are not game developers, they are a production company and translators.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Typhus on <08-20-19/1751:03>
Quote
And from what I am hearing and seeing we are well on are way to that.

+1.  This is why I am an advocate for this book being rewritten. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: topcat on <08-20-19/2307:26>
I'm still amazed they haven't given up on print books for print-on-demand options.  Reduce your costs, embrace the future of 2006.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-21-19/0755:39>
I'm still amazed they haven't given up on print books for print-on-demand options.  Reduce your costs, embrace the future of 2006.
They may be heading that way. BattleTech just released their Chaos Campaign: Succession Wars on DriveThruRPG as PoD.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-21-19/1647:50>
Why would Pegasus want to publish in the US? They are happy taking games produced here and getting the license to translate them to German for the German market. They are not game developers, they are a production company and translators.

Not sure if you remember, but so was FanPro before they became the main company for Shadowrun/Battletech.
So I don't see the point of this argument as it has already been done ones in the lifetime of Shadowrun?
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FastJack on <08-21-19/1653:10>
Why would Pegasus want to publish in the US? They are happy taking games produced here and getting the license to translate them to German for the German market. They are not game developers, they are a production company and translators.

Not sure if you remember, but so was FanPro before they became the main company for Shadowrun/Battletech.
So I don't see the point of this argument as it has already been done ones in the lifetime of Shadowrun?
That worked out so well for FanPro, too.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-21-19/1707:49>
Why would Pegasus want to publish in the US? They are happy taking games produced here and getting the license to translate them to German for the German market. They are not game developers, they are a production company and translators.

Not sure if you remember, but so was FanPro before they became the main company for Shadowrun/Battletech.
So I don't see the point of this argument as it has already been done ones in the lifetime of Shadowrun?
That worked out so well for FanPro, too.

Since their issues had to do with not owning their own warehousing and shipping, and Fast Forward Entertainment (the fulfillment company) going under don't see your point.
The point is/was that you made a statement that "Why would Pegasus want to publish in the US" as if this was something that no Germany company would do, and it has already been done.
And with proper planing (something that FanPro missed) who wouldn't want to increase their market from a business point of view.

Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: tenchi2a on <08-21-19/1728:54>
The whole thing comes down to what Topps feels the value of the IP is.
They can support,sell,licence, or shelf the IP at any time based on what would be of the highest value to them.
They have already shelved a IP do to it not being worth selling and not making as a licence before. (renegade legions)
So if Shadowrun is not profitable to Topps it could face the same fate, if no one wants it or if their management team feels that they can't make a profit from support,sales,or licencing.
In that case it would not matter who wants it.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: FrowningMirror on <08-28-19/0753:29>
I like the changes so far but unarmed combat is a little strong right now compared to melee builds.
Title: Re: [SR6] Edition Poll
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-28-19/0800:44>
Solution: If your unarmed attack is Wrested, they manage to steal your actual hands. :P (But yeah, it might need some houseruling.)