[Sir Ludwig]

Alright, need help.

Did a forum search and couldn't find anything. 

We haven’t had anyone create preparation in a game yet, but thought of this while reading SW cover to cover. 
Preparation Question:  (CRB p150+)

I understand the process of creation and previously had assumed that something requiring sustaining (like increase attribute) lasted the potency time.  (Finished Preparation p150) 

As I read Street Wyrd, I realized my assumption was flowed due to the potency time on (SW p 89) and how that would affect Boost Pill (SW p 91)

Therefore, I went back to CRB and couldn’t find anything about sustained spells and how long they last (or I missed it). 

My question: How long does the increased attribute (or any sustain spell) last with a preparation?

Thanks,
SL

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think they errataed it and its potency minutes.


As an aside, if you want to buy them I guess go for it if you think it is worth it.  If a player is considering putting points into this advise strongly against it. The game math behind them is absolutely terrible, like no excuse this got past the first version of play test terrible, so bad I do not believe they actually had a single person test it, or even read it and think about it for 5 seconds after it was put in.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Yes, minutes = remaining potency at the time of casting.


As a tangent: SK, I don't get the hate on preparations.  Yes, they're niche... quite a lot of the time it's more suitable to just cast a spell "on the fly" rather than spending hours beforehand setting up that same spell, sure.  But there's certainly very relevant applications for setting up some drain-free, fire and forget spells that can be thrown at some point in the future.  Especially as booby-traps that you don't have to physically risk your own skin to employ.

You say the game math is terrible... I don't see that?  Yes, a spell cast "in person" is usually going to be more effective than a preparation because preparations add in the extra resistance step, but:
1) drain isn't going to get that many net hits, if any (I'd 10/10 spend edge to remove hits from the opposed roll on this)
2) the net hits becomes the "skill" of the preparation.  And this is not capped at your own skill level.

example:

Team mage decides to do something productive while the face and decker are doing legwork to research their shadowrun.  She decides to make a "ring of invisibility" for the team's samurai to use during the upcoming infiltration.  She decides on the touch trigger because 1) it's the least amount of extra drain, and 2) she doesn't have to remain on the physical plane to give the samurai invisibility this way.  Base DV is 3, +1 for trigger, -2 because of course she'll spend the reagents, for a final DV of 2.  Enchanting + Magic will of course generate a number of hits based on how optimized the character is, but let's assume 3 skill and 6 magic for a round average of 3 hits, opposed by a probable 0 hits. After spending 2 hours futzing with the preparation, there's the "magic ring" that she carefully puts into a baggie and hands to the sammie. (of course, if your GM isn't hyper literal and permits the rule of cool, a "touch" trigger built into a ring might work when you put it on rather than when you simply touch it, making the plastic baggie a pointless detail.  With potency 3, the ring will be at full strength for 3x2=6 Hours. That ought to be enough time to execute their run.   During that time, when the sammie triggers the preparation, the invisibility spell casts with 3 potency + 6 creator's magic=9 dice. That might be less than the mage's sorcery + magic, but then again it might be more.  Especially if there were a lot of net hits to pump up that potency.  The spell lasts for 3 minutes, but 1) doesn't cost the mage drain 2) doesn't cost the mage -2 dice to sustain during those 3 minutes, and 3) doesn't require the mage to be physically present with the sammie.

TL;DR: yes casting spells in person/directly usually results in a better effect, but 1) not necessarily, and 2) the flexibility it offers is worth a minor loss in efficiency, if you even have one.

[autXautY]

The issues I have with preparations have more to do with timing than successes - preparations last for short enough that you need to make them right before they're used, but take quite a while to make. You can't bring many preparations on a run, since the time to make multiple will often be enough for the first few to run out. You can't deal with unexpected delays, like learning that the ideal time for a run is the next day after you already made your preparation.
Any investment in Enchanting for the sake of preparations has to deal with the fact that you make an average of something like 1 enchanting roll per session. And that roll will then have to be rolled again before it actually takes effect.
I could probably be convinced that low-investment enchanting is a good idea - someone with magic 6, Enchanting 1, and a power focus 4 can actually be a surprisingly good enchanter even though they're primarily a summoner/spellcasting - 11 dice to enchant average potency 3.67, average successes on the roll 3.22

I also am annoyed that the economics of buying preparations make very little sense. Consider 3 aspected magicians trying to make it as wage mages - Alice (Enchanter, working on preparations), Bob (Sorcerer), Carol (Enchanter, working on focuses). All have magic 4, and achieve 4 successes on a magic+skill roll
Alice spends 8 hours a day, 20 days a month making preparations. The relation of the prices, drain values, and number of reagents needed written in Street Wyrd is inconsistent, but generally around 50 Nuyen/hour, so she makes 400 nuyen/day, 8,000 Nuyen/month. Given her preparations need to be completed and purchased around the same time, she probably needs someone managing commissions - assume they're living a low lifestyle. Adding in taxes from both of these people being SINners, she can make medium lifestyle with 300 Nuyen/month leftover for sundry expenses. Pretty good for someone living in Shadowrun, but not great for someone with a rare and valuable talent, working unpredictable hours.
Bob spends 4 hours a day, 20 days a month driving to different peoples houses and casting spells for them. Casting spells is instantaneous for him, but travel still takes time, so he casts 8 spells over the course of his day. He charges an average of 200 nuyen/spell - lower than most preparations since they can't be stored at all, though he does have slightly better results (4 successes, compared to the 2.67 average of a potency 4 preparation). He makes 1,600 nuyen/day, or 32,000/month. With the same low lifestyle secretary, he has enough for a high lifestyle, with 18,800 leftover per month. Enough to support a second person on a high lifestyle (perhaps a spouse, or hiring a bodyguard for all that driving around). A much, much nicer lifestyle than Alice, working half the hours.
Carol spends 8 hours a day crafting focuses, 5 days a month. She can craft 1 Force 1 focus each day. This costs her 2-6 reagent (100-300 Nuyen), and 1 karma (I'm counting this as 2,000 Nuyen, based on character creation). She makes 3.000-18.0000 per day, reduced to 900-15700 by operating costs. Assuming she makes exclusively weapon focuses, she makes 4850 nuyen/day, or 24250 Nuyen/month. Given that focuses last for a while she has much less need of commissions, but if she isn't working on commission she needs either a secure facility to keep these in, or to immediately sell them to a corporation with such a facility, either of which will take their cut. As long as it's not above 50%, she can make a high lifestyle, with SINner taxes, working 5 days a month. Probably with thousands of Nuyen to spare. If she works exclusively with power focuses, and works 10 days/month, she makes 157,000/month, enough for a luxury lifestyle, and 47,000 Nuyen to spare, maybe to hire 4 elite mercenaries as bodyguards at high lifestyle. (She needs a 4,500 Nuyen focus formula, and a 500 Nuyen lodge, but these can be paid off by working a day or two extra whenever she expands her workshop or adds a new product to her line). In any case, her work is maximally convenient - she picks when her shift is, and works then. The focus isn't going to go away just because she made it a few hours (or days, or months) before the customer wanted it.
        Mostly unrelated - isn't it weird that the price of making a Focus is so unrelated to how valuable the kind of Focus is? I know, it's Shadowrun, not talismonger-simulator, but it bugs me.

On the other side of the sale, preparations are really expensive:
Why buy a 450 Nuyen arcane taser that will break in a day and can only be used once when you could buy a 340 Nuyen actual taser, a 100 Nuyen stun grenade, or hire someone for 5000 Nuyen a month (167 nuyen/day, though you probably need to hire 2 people to give them some time off) to follow you around shooting your 340 Nuyen taser at people, in case you're a bad shot?
Why buy a 550 Nuyen instant garden when you can hire a sorcerer to come over to your house and cast it for almost certainly less than 550 Nuyen for a few seconds work+travel time? Or hire a mundane gardener, or buy an already-grown plant?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yes, minutes = remaining potency at the time of casting.


As a tangent: SK, I don't get the hate on preparations.  Yes, they're niche... quite a lot of the time it's more suitable to just cast a spell "on the fly" rather than spending hours beforehand setting up that same spell, sure.  But there's certainly very relevant applications for setting up some drain-free, fire and forget spells that can be thrown at some point in the future.  Especially as booby-traps that you don't have to physically risk your own skin to employ.

You say the game math is terrible... I don't see that?  Yes, a spell cast "in person" is usually going to be more effective than a preparation because preparations add in the extra resistance step, but:
1) drain isn't going to get that many net hits, if any (I'd 10/10 spend edge to remove hits from the opposed roll on this)
2) the net hits becomes the "skill" of the preparation.  And this is not capped at your own skill level.

example:

Team mage decides to do something productive while the face and decker are doing legwork to research their shadowrun.  She decides to make a "ring of invisibility" for the team's samurai to use during the upcoming infiltration.  She decides on the touch trigger because 1) it's the least amount of extra drain, and 2) she doesn't have to remain on the physical plane to give the samurai invisibility this way.  Base DV is 3, +1 for trigger, -2 because of course she'll spend the reagents, for a final DV of 2.  Enchanting + Magic will of course generate a number of hits based on how optimized the character is, but let's assume 3 skill and 6 magic for a round average of 3 hits, opposed by a probable 0 hits. After spending 2 hours futzing with the preparation, there's the "magic ring" that she carefully puts into a baggie and hands to the sammie. (of course, if your GM isn't hyper literal and permits the rule of cool, a "touch" trigger built into a ring might work when you put it on rather than when you simply touch it, making the plastic baggie a pointless detail.  With potency 3, the ring will be at full strength for 3x2=6 Hours. That ought to be enough time to execute their run.   During that time, when the sammie triggers the preparation, the invisibility spell casts with 3 potency + 6 creator's magic=9 dice. That might be less than the mage's sorcery + magic, but then again it might be more.  Especially if there were a lot of net hits to pump up that potency.  The spell lasts for 3 minutes, but 1) doesn't cost the mage drain 2) doesn't cost the mage -2 dice to sustain during those 3 minutes, and 3) doesn't require the mage to be physically present with the sammie.

TL;DR: yes casting spells in person/directly usually results in a better effect, but 1) not necessarily, and 2) the flexibility it offers is worth a minor loss in efficiency, if you even have one.

Yeah what you described sucks massively. It is not just making a prep its investing skill points,(spells if you are just an alchemist but if you are a mage with spell casting I guess those get shared, it wasn't really clear to me, but maybe those as well either way) lots of cash due to frequency when using reagents for removing drain, hours of time(it would be 4 in your example, reagents reduce the drain but not the time, the example makes it clear even if the rules are vague), and maybe edge which wont be back for your first encounter for A singular maybe 2 gimmick items that may or may not last long enough to use and  will almost assuredly be tanked at the first ward.

 Investing that much for a niche use isn't a good choice.  And the game math will always remain bad as long as they do it as a test, since you lose more dice the better you are. Lets use your example of a 2 die resistance for no hits, but its a better alchemist with 18 dice, 8 magic, 6 skill, 4 from whatever. they get 6 hits+8 magic is 14 dice down form there 18.  They lost 4 dice 4 more than in your example for the crime of getting better, and it gets worse if you got your dice more heavily from bonuses like specialization/totems etc and not the magic skill, same die pool but 6 magic and 6 dice are gone, it only worked out in your example because the magic was 2/3rds of the pool, which I am going to say is exceedingly rare. That is the bad math(the hours for hours is also pretty bad idea since it limits you to 1 maybe 2 preparations, but maybe that is what they wanted which isn't bad math, but a bad decision). It is the same bad math in resist disease spells in 5e.  All of this for a item that may or may not come into play because not only is there a duration and weakness to wards etc, when you prep a spell just like in D&D lots of times a situation just never manifests where you need it.

My fixes would be.

This part is a nerf, but change activation to major actions, I don't think they thought that through since in theory a NPC could make them or you could buy them, or eventually they may add a freezer etc like in SR5, and minor actions play different than simple actions with only 1 attack per pass. 4 control mobs in one turn would just be silly, or again if they do the freezer 4 base damage 12 fireballs, heck you just have to survive it push it as far as you can.

Return it to minutes to make, this allows a alchemists to actually have preps plural, it also allows them, to be made on site if they get removed via security or wards. Remove the test to make just have it with a default penalty die based on trigger, this way you don't lose more dice the higher your pool thanks to a TN of 5. Have a cap on how many a alchemist can have prepped at a time so they can't cheese no drain triggers into a massive arsenal.  Have a cap on amps so people don't cheese out of combat drain into a super bomb. Maybe have them inherently be capable of slipping past wards like the charisma test for a astral mage, so one ward does not disproportionately effect alchemists compared to other casters, if the test fails they obviously still break.  Maybe add a metamagic to remove the cap on preparations, thats for long duration triggers like for base traps, have some guide on it needed to be big, maybe immobile and costly so its not just near permanent rings or whatever.

This would be quicker, easier, and isn't absolutely terrible.

[Aria]

I thought that the Street Wyrd preparations you 'buy' have been 'blood magiked' so that they don't run out??  What you've said is true for your local talismonger I guess...

[Xenon]

...if you are a mage with spell casting I guess those get shared, it wasn't really clear to me, but maybe those as well either way...

Not sure if this changed in SR6, but they at least used to not be shared.

SR5 p. 304 Step 1: Choose a spell
Spells used in preparations are different versions of the Sorcery spells listed on p. 283, but have the same effect, Drain Value, keywords, and so on as those spells. You learn the alchemical versions of these spells separately from Sorcery spells, but the Karma cost is the same.

[Shinobi Killfist]

...if you are a mage with spell casting I guess those get shared, it wasn't really clear to me, but maybe those as well either way...

Not sure if this changed in SR6, but they at least used to not be shared.

SR5 p. 304 Step 1: Choose a spell
Spells used in preparations are different versions of the Sorcery spells listed on p. 283, but have the same effect, Drain Value, keywords, and so on as those spells. You learn the alchemical versions of these spells separately from Sorcery spells, but the Karma cost is the same.

Yeah, I had assumed that as well, but they never spell it out directly in SR6 as far as I can see, when learning a spell they mention using the skill the formula is for, but they just refer to it as spells in all other locations. Under choose a spell step the only limit mention is it has to be a spell you know.  I just can't tell if this is one of those well if you played 5e things, or a deliberate change.

So when you get a heal alchemical formula and learn it is that just the method you learned the spell but it can be used in both spell casting and preparations or is it only for preparations. And then if you have ritual magic, can you use a spell form alchemy if its a different spell.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I thought that the Street Wyrd preparations you 'buy' have been 'blood magiked' so that they don't run out??  What you've said is true for your local talismonger I guess...

Yeah I do not think those run out, the main discussion for me is the value of the skill if someone wanted to play an alchemist. In 5e it was a less effective choice and even more workable after the last magic supplement, though the freezer thing set up a setting issue but blood magiced preps do the same. In 6e it is not a viable choice imo. Well full mages will have spirits so they'd always be viable, since those are broken on their own.

[Aria]

I'm loath to houserule spirits but I agree that they are a powerful option, probably too powerful (and always have been)... I just have to trust my players to know that if they start using spirits to take the lime light then they can expect the opposition to return the favour... but that is probably a thread derail 

[MercilessMing]

For what it's worth, the Genesis character creator for 6e treats learned spells uniquely between sorcery and enchanting.

And yes, spirits are too strong, there's a reason the Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit meme applies to Shadowrun.  If your PC group has a summoner character, the opposing force *HAS* to include magic users capable of challenging their spirits, if the oppo is supposed to be a threat for the purpose of the story.  Otherwise the rest of the players get bored to tears. 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Letting mundanes employ command triggers, coupled with extended potency, allows for the opposition to resist spirits w/o the Blight toxin which is arguably an overcorrection, or doing rationale gymnastics to explain why every group of opposition has allegedly rare magical back up.  This is my favorite thing about Street Wyrd.

[autXautY]

I thought that the Street Wyrd preparations you 'buy' have been 'blood magiked' so that they don't run out??  What you've said is true for your local talismonger I guess...

I think they do run out, just in weeks/months instead of hours, at the cost of doubling/quadrupling the price.
This does make them significantly more practical - you can carry an arcane taser around for 450/month instead of 450/day, which is still a lot for something that lets you get one moderate strength/accuracy attack off, but at least less than hiring a bodyguard with a taser.
If you assume the alchemist doesn't spend any more time on these, they can double or quadruple their revenue. On the other hand, you now have to assume the alchemist has a rare, one of a kind skill on top of the rare, valuable skill that is magic, which probably deserves more than 100 or 200 Nuyen an hour.
Also, it involves blood magic. While I don't expect the corporations in Shadowrun would refuse to kill people for the sake of their profit margin, I feel like they would have practical reasons not to kill people for such slim profit margins (and whatever ethical concerns still move them probably are harder to drown in money).

[Finstersang]

I really liked the new triggers added in Street Wyrd, but IMO, Preparations are still somewhat lacking behind due to the nested dice rolls. There was a bit of discussion on reddit back when Street Wyrd came out, where I buried one of my usual houserule/rant posts deep down in the thread. In case you are interested, here´s the main part of it, minus the initial references to previous arguments in that thread. Most of these ideas come from my half-finished effort to houserule 5th Edition alchemy.

-------

The core process works pretty much exactly like in the CRB (including the nested Dice Roll in Step 3!), but with a lot of additions/tweaks:

• Formulas and Spells don´t have to be learnt seperately. If you know the spell, you can use it for Alchemy as well as for regular Spellcasting.
• Standard prep time also stays the same (Drain * 1 hour), but if time´s pressing, an alchemist can concoct a "volatile preparation". In that case, the prep time is only (Drain * 1 minute), but you also replace hours with minutes when tracking the shelf live of the preparation.
• Know what? Fragg it! Standard prep time is (Drain * 1 Minute), and if time´s pressing, an alchemist can concoct a "volatile preparation". In that case, the prep time is only (Drain * Combat rounds), but you also replace hours with minutes when tracking the shelf live of the preparation.

Now comes the interesting part: Reagents. While making the preparation, the Alchemist can spend up to [Skill Rating] (including Specialisations, but no bonus dice from foci etc.) + [Initation Grade] Dram of Reagents for a number of different effects. These include the following:

• Reduce the Prep time by 1 hour minute (or 1 minute combat round for volatile preparations). If you are already down to one, cut the remaining time in half for every additional Dram of Reagents.
• Reduce Drain Value by 1. This doesn´t affect the prep time, but everything else. Like in the CRB, you can use a max. of 2 Reagents for this.
• Increase the Potency of the Preparation by 1. This is usually the most appealing part: By putting in enough Reagents in, you can reliably come out with a better dice pool than with normal spellcasting. I will cost you, though.
• Add a Wild Die for 2 Reaegents by going more experimental ´n shit. The Wild Die is added both when creating the Preparation and when it goes off.
• For sustained spells: Pay 2 or more Drams of Reagents to multiply the sustaining time by that amount (Note: the usual sustaining time of a triggered preparation is Potency*Minutes).
• If you possess the Fixation metamagic: Pay 2 or more Drams of Reagents to multiply the shelf life by that number and also add an equal amount of bonus dice to resist dispelling (What about the RAW option with the Karma expenditure? Well, if you really think that´s worthwhile, keep it in )
• Note: Some of the additional triggers in Street Wyrd also require Reagents. I chose to keep them, however, they don´t count towards the reagent limit.

Next up: A few additional rules about Edge in Alchemy:

• Alchemists may use Edge in special way: By spending Edge at the start of the process, they can increase the Reagent limit by an equal amount, allowing for more reagents and subsequently, more powerfull creations.
• The GM my award up to one point of Edge (to be used when making the preparation) if the player chooses a particulary "fitting" lynchpin that hints at the trigger, tradition and/or spell used. Examples would be an hourglass or a pocket watch for a time trigger, a magical Matchbox for a Fireball Spell, or fitting nordic Runes for a Norse Shaman (Note: In 5th Edition, I added this as a method to reduce drain, but for 6th, Edge is more fitting. The idea is to reward creative thinking, especially if the lynchpin involves the risk of better hinting towards the actual effect and/or magician. Without that little reward, it´s a bit too tempting to only use "deceiving" lynchpins!)
• Using additional Edge: If awakened Characters voluntarily trigger a Preparation and have some means of controling it, they may spend their own Edge on the spellcasting test of the triggered preparation. This is obviously the case for Control Triggers, but might extend to other triggers at the GM´s discretion, f.i. attacks with a contact-triggered "Rune-Hammer".
• Combat Spells: The Attack Rating of a Combat Spell Preparation is equal to Preparation+Force. If the spell is controlled in some way (see above), a high enough Attack rating may grant Edge to the "weilder" of the preparation. If that´s not the case, the Edge "earned" by the preparation simply adds one die to the spellasting tests.

Finally, some words on Triggers: Most of my musings revolve around reagents, but I find these equally as important. A vast array of triggers really adds to the creativity and complexity of alchemy. And seriously, Street Wyrd does a great job here! A whole lot of my own houserule pipedreams are actually incorporated here, and there are some things that I didn´t even think about. For example, I added a separate Ingestion, Injektion (i.e. contact with blood) and 2-component-trigger, all of which are now possible with the neatly designed Material Trigger. There´s even a "spoken word" trigger, never thought that they would go that far! Imagine the shenanigans you can with that However: Here are a few additional ideas you migh want to consider:

• Ghostly Touch: The Preparation is triggered when a (sizeable) Astral Entitiy passes through it. However, the spell has to be a mana spell and only affects the astral plane. Commonly used to build "Dreamcatchers" and other repellents against spirits and astral intruders.
• Prolonged Touch: Same as the Touch Trigger, but with a little twist: It´s to be used for a single-target sustained spell, which, after activation, only remains active as long as the subject keeps touching the lynchpin. In return, the standard sustain time (before further adjustments) is doubled. Commonly used for magical Talismans, Amuletts and other wearable charms.
• Chain Reaction: The preparation is simply tethered to another preparation. If one goes off, so does the other. Further links in the chain increase the Drain.
• Kinship: The Preparation is triggered by a specific person or by their relatives (precisely: relatives in blood. Note that there´s a very interesting mission in Shadowrun: Dragonfall toying with this idea as well. Spoiler alert: It involces a certain megacon that really likes to mix blood and magic )
• Anima: The Preparation is triggered when touched by a nonsentient animal. Additionally, it can also be triggered by sentient beings if they enter some kind of "animalistic" frenzy. This includes effects like the rage of Bear or Shark shamans, the Berserk Adept power, Adrenaline Pumps, drugs and BTLs, mortal panic and even (wonder if players will find a use for that ) Orgasms.
• Perception: To be used with LOS Illusion and Mental Manipulation spells. The Spell is triggered if the preparation is conscously percieved by a sentient being. Usually, this only extends to one target (first come, first serve), but in exchange for additional drain, it may extend to multiple targets after the first one. At the GM´s discretion, some degree of deliberate and prolonged exposure is needed to count as "conscious perception". F.i., a quick glance at a magical rune won´t suffice, but if the target has a closer look or even tries to decipher it, the spell goes of. The trigger is always limited to one sense. Most rely on visual perception, but with a fitting lynchpin, there might even be triggers using smell (f.i. magical perfume) or sound (f.i. hypnotic Instruments).

Final Note in Triggers: Since I´m also not a fan of the current excessive UMT streamlining, I was originally toying with the idea of tying certain triggers specific certain Traditions to better differentiate them. Each Tradition would have had access to a number of certain triggers, with the option to learn additional Triggers for Karma. F.i., the Spoken Word trigger would have been one typically used by Islamic Mages; which doesn´t only fit the old "open Sesame" trope, but also the fact that Islam is often considered a highly logocentric religion, where the written and spoken word has a lot of power attached to it. My idea for the Anima trigger was even born out of the need for a trigger unique to shamanism. It´s great that standard spellcasting works all the same for every tradition, but that doesn´t have to extend to every branch of magic, especially if it´s a more "advanced" one like Alchemy. But alas, here we are with the UMT steamroller rolling on and on. Bet that in 7th Edition, even the Drain Attributes will be same
 

[Shinobi Killfist]

Those house rules help, but the hour long prep really makes it non functional on its own.  If the intent is for alchemy only to be a back up to spell casting I guess it works. But minute duration preps for volatile or hours for normal so you only have like 2 for your run just doesn't work. 2ish spells you prep in advance which you are not sure you will need?  You can't even say this rewards planning, because its weaker than spell casting.  And that is a lot of karma and money for a side skill that doesn't come into play often. Hours was just a bad decision, it would be okay if hours was the optional increase to make more stable preparations that lasted days or weeks, maybe they have to be mobile or something but hours to make for hours duration is almost impossible to swing.

The entire magic section needs an overall, at least spell casting functions even if there were some bad decisions in it.