[funkytim]

I have a question about the "Combat Sense" spell.  Was it intended to just increase DR (and surprise tests) when compared to the adept power it adds dice pool to the defense test?  I ask because the armor spell actually only increases DR and actually has a higher DV than combat sense.  I can see where stacking all this DR could be good I thought the difference between the adept power and spell was curious.

I was also wondering if there were any limitations on skill boost ingredient for creating spells.  Can you boost your sorcery or conjuring with this spell?  I think if I'm reading it correctly you also have to pick the skill in the creation of the spell, not while casting it.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Armor spell is part of 2 game balance details that make me go WTF.  Why is Combat Sense a better version of Armor for lower drain, and why is Vehicle Armor a worse version of Armor for more drain.

Street Wyrd didn't go back and address those, but going by the guidelines in designing custom spells you can probably re-jigger the spell balance between the three for your own game.

As for limitations on the ingredients that give bonus dice... the rules are deliberately open ended for interpretation.  Personally: I don't see any reason why one skill or another should be excluded.  However, for game balance reasons, you should never be allowed to get more than +4 dice.  But, as designed, YMMV.

[funkytim]

Always appreciate your reply's SSDR.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Odds are the spells worked differently at some points in development, and the DV never updated to the current changes. Like Armor may have added to soak at one point.(as an aside, increase attribute for body hits that role and adds to your DR though your drain will likely be 6 vs 4 for armor which actually looks balanced against combat sense)

[Finstersang]

Odds are the spells worked differently at some points in development, and the DV never updated to the current changes. Like Armor may have added to soak at one point.(as an aside, increase attribute for body hits that role and adds to your DR though your drain will likely be 6 vs 4 for armor which actually looks balanced against combat sense)

Comprehensive Houserule:

• Armor spell grants Immunity to Normal Weapons, i.e. [Net Hits] Hardened Armor agains non-magic damage
• Hardened Armor grants full value as bonus dice instead of Autohits, along with the DR bonus.

In a nutshell, what you suggested; but combined with a balancing fix to ItNW/HA. Of course, you could also add the Hardened Armor effect to the spell directly, without the "detour" via ItNW. I think it´s more interesting and "fluffy" if the effect excludes magical attacks (beware the mage-killer adepts  ) and it would somewhat justify to keep the drain slightly lower than you estimated. And as an additional boon to the Elemental Armor spells, one might also extend the HA effect to magic attacks using the "opposite" Element. 

[autXautY]

Odds are the spells worked differently at some points in development, and the DV never updated to the current changes. Like Armor may have added to soak at one point.(as an aside, increase attribute for body hits that role and adds to your DR though your drain will likely be 6 vs 4 for armor which actually looks balanced against combat sense)

Comprehensive Houserule:

• Armor spell grants Immunity to Normal Weapons, i.e. [Net Hits] Hardened Armor agains non-magic damage
• Hardened Armor grants full value as bonus dice instead of Autohits, along with the DR bonus.

In a nutshell, what you suggested; but combined with a balancing fix to ItNW/HA. Of course, you could also add the Hardened Armor effect to the spell directly, without the "detour" via ItNW. I think it´s more interesting and "fluffy" if the effect excludes magical attacks (beware the mage-killer adepts  ) and it would somewhat justify to keep the drain slightly lower than you estimated. And as an additional boon to the Elemental Armor spells, one might also extend the HA effect to magic attacks using the "opposite" Element.

I think this would end up much stronger than Increase Body - while both add successes as dice to soak, increase body is capped at 4, and shares that cap with anything else that might augment body.
They also have different thresholds - Increase body will potentially gain a free success or lose up to 5.

[Shinobi Killfist]

If I were to balance this I'd either reduce its drain value to 2, or add soak dice to its function. While yes it can roll better than increase body, once it can also roll low enough it does not matter and two body has some functions beyond DR and soak, like I don't think armor would help with toxins etc.  And its 5 DV is based around a fairly normal roll of increase body.  The low risk choice is reduce the DV to 2. The game is balanced around lower soaks so a spell that can boost soaks may change the low of the game. Probably wont much when cast on the mage, bumping their 4 soak to 8 isn't a huge issue, but the monster street sam who already has 11 soak going to 15 may skew things to where DMs may start throwing ludicrous damage at the party so the Troll can be threatened, which works up until they shoot the decker.

I'm not sure I want a fix for ITNW, I do not mind spirits being sort of indestructible, I think its sort of a red herring in spirit balance. I do mind their output. If their damage/utility was more PR2 level threats/help on the high end being really hard to kill would not be so much of an issue, and they would not be out street saming the sam.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

If I were to try to fix these spells:

I'd remove DR entirely from Combat Sense.  Bonus to surprise rolls, no bonus DR. Maybe give the bonus to init score (numerical value NOT dice) to make it more attractive, if necessary.

Armor: just leave it. Any issues one might have with DR as a rules mechanic are external to this spell.

Vehicle Armor: give Hardened armor per net hit instead of DR.

[Shinobi Killfist]

That is a lot of drain just for DR for armor, combat sense may be a bit low for what it gives, but I'm not sure about that its 2 very minor effects. I mean either way a well built mage will soak it all but thematically compared to other 4 DV spells armor is a massive dud imo, combat sense at 3 may be very slightly low in DV though I'd say 4 DV is slightly high for what it gives depending on how much you expect surprise to come into play. Compared to improved invisibility, stun ball, analyze truth, detect enemies, control thought/actions, trid phantasm, Armor looks pathetic at the same or higher DV.

[Finstersang]

Keep in mind that it´s not "Increase Body", but "increase Attribute" in 6th. The new versatility of the spell would still be a huge boon compared to a modified Armor spell. The latter would also only add dice to specific soak tests, while a buff to the body attribut has an impact on various other resistance tests, as well lifting and carrying or feats of endurance. I don´t  think that a cap of +4 or a large drain increase is really that necessary. If you really feel that [Net hits] in soak dice might turn out too strong, maybe consider a DR Bonus of [Net Hits] and a Soak Bonus of [Net Hits]/2 (round up)?

Side note: In 6th Edition, the spell description fails to mention how visible an active armor spell is. This is another important thing to consider when it comes to the balancing of the spell. An obvious glowing magic bubble will alert the opposition to the presence of a magician and we all know who gets geeked first when spotted. I personally like the spell to be both flashy and impactfull and chose my preferred houserule accordingly. I.e. it´s obvious af, but adds loads of sweet soak dice. AFAIK, there has been a separate less obvious version (I believe it was called "Body Glove"?) in previous editions. The current, slightly underwhelming effect of only adding to DR could still be fitting for the covert version. Oh wait, we already have that covert version: It´s Combat Sense 

[Xenon]

Keep in mind that it´s not "Increase Body", but "increase Attribute" in 6th. The new versatility of the spell ...

Unless of course you read this change as if you must now choose which attribute you want to increase for each subject you cast the spell on. That you can't stack the same spell twice to increase two different attributes on the same subject ;-)

the spell description fails to mention how visible an active armor spell is

Perhaps it no longer make the subjects glow....

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah this version just says it reinforces the targets body, for all I know that means it looks like you turned into colossus from the x-men. More drain, less effect and may be visible depending on GM. And compared to totally different spells of a similar drain +DR seems weak sauce.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Keep in mind that it´s not "Increase Body", but "increase Attribute" in 6th. The new versatility of the spell ...

Unless of course you read this change as if you must now choose which attribute you want to increase for each subject you cast the spell on. That you can't stack the same spell twice to increase two different attributes on the same subject ;-)

I don't know how someone would get that reading unless they are trying to weaken it and just adding something in. I can cast any spell out there on you twice, I see no reason why this one would be different. If the effect is the same like a invisibility spell there might not be a point to it, but if the effect is different like a different attribute there would be. And even if you added this limitation in, its still a far more versatile spell than armor.

[Xenon]

Being SR6 there is of course no RAW on this and RAI why they changed the spell is not clear either (as you said, even if you were not intended to stack it on yourself it is still a perfectly good spell - and if you are also allowed to stack it then it suddenly became one of the best spells in the game and should probably be mandatory to pick).

I think we also had this discussion many months ago and it ended up me placing it in the House Rule section until we both can get some clarification ;-)

Stacking of spells
The same spell being cast more than once on the same target will not stack. Instead only the instance with most net hits will count. This include spells such as Increase Attribute, Decrease Attribute and Elemental Armor, even if they affect different attributes or different elements.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'd personally also like to see any Increase (Attribute) overwrite any other Increase (Attribute)... but it is deliberate that you can stack the spell with itself when the instances are all modifying different attributes.