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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #15 on: <10-28-11/0219:27> »
Note that this is a personal opinion based on their output for the game, much of which I didn't care for. I've never met either of them, never exchanged so much as a single word with either one of them, and I wouldn't know them if I passed them on the street. You, having worked with them, might have different thoughts on the matter. :)

You know, I've read stuff they've each individually done for other game systems, and generally, it's not bad.  As well, I'm sure they're fine people -- or at least okay, right?  But what they wrote for Shadowrun -- England, that disgusting obscenity that is Imago, 99.95% of the Prime Runners book -- it's just bad.  Arrogant, contemptuous -- Patrick, I cannot agree with you enough on this one.  Apart, they're okay; together, they're an ecological disaster.

What particularly gets my goat is the fact that 'no matter what the runners do, they cannot understand XYZ'.  'Person Q has stuff / knowledge that will always be better than the PCs.'  I mean, really??  I could understand this in a piece of fan fiction -- you know what I mean.  "Teachdaire is k001!!!  He has a Thing that lets him Hipnotiz every1 in teh r00m when he walkz in!!!1!'  Every GM in the world -- okay, all the ones I've ever met -- would laugh the character out of the room.  England is Bigger and Better and Bestest at magic than everyone else in the world, and they're so neat, and and and ...

... but let me tell you how I really feel .... :P :)

Like I said -- all their writing would have been fine -- or rather, tolerable -- if it had been fanfic.  That it was written, approved, and made canonical makes me wish I could tear out the portion of my brain where the knowledge of their writing survives...
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TheWanderingJewels

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« Reply #16 on: <10-28-11/1110:27> »
Imago? Must have missed tha one
Tech dreams of organic toys
And I'm runnin' out on the edge
Soft screams of the rockerboys
Echoing through my head

--Miracle Of Sound, City Of Night

FastJack

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« Reply #17 on: <10-28-11/1143:21> »
Well, you're in luck! The PDF is available at Drive Thru RPG for just $4.

Enjoy!

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #18 on: <10-28-11/1153:51> »
Glad you didn't specify which kind of luck there, FJ....
Former Shadowrun Errata Coordinator

LouP

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« Reply #19 on: <10-28-11/1156:52> »
Hey, Lou, welcome to the party!

Hi Patrick!

Out of curiosity, who is the other half of the SR Toxic Twins?
That would be Marc Gascoigne, Carl's frequent partner in crime.

Note that this is a personal opinion based on their output for the game, much of which I didn't care for. I've never met either of them, never exchanged so much as a single word with either one of them, and I wouldn't know them if I passed them on the street. You, having worked with them, might have different thoughts on the matter. :)

I can understand that. IMO, Carl went a little too far with mome of his IE stuff, and that's coming from someone who loves the whole IE / Great Dragon thing in ED/SR.

Take Care,

Lou

LouP

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« Reply #20 on: <10-28-11/1213:40> »
Note that this is a personal opinion based on their output for the game, much of which I didn't care for. I've never met either of them, never exchanged so much as a single word with either one of them, and I wouldn't know them if I passed them on the street. You, having worked with them, might have different thoughts on the matter. :)

You know, I've read stuff they've each individually done for other game systems, and generally, it's not bad.  As well, I'm sure they're fine people -- or at least okay, right?  But what they wrote for Shadowrun -- England, that disgusting obscenity that is Imago, 99.95% of the Prime Runners book -- it's just bad.  Arrogant, contemptuous -- Patrick, I cannot agree with you enough on this one.  Apart, they're okay; together, they're an ecological disaster.

What particularly gets my goat is the fact that 'no matter what the runners do, they cannot understand XYZ'.  'Person Q has stuff / knowledge that will always be better than the PCs.'  I mean, really??  I could understand this in a piece of fan fiction -- you know what I mean.  "Teachdaire is k001!!!  He has a Thing that lets him Hipnotiz every1 in teh r00m when he walkz in!!!1!'  Every GM in the world -- okay, all the ones I've ever met -- would laugh the character out of the room.  England is Bigger and Better and Bestest at magic than everyone else in the world, and they're so neat, and and and ...

... but let me tell you how I really feel .... :P :)

Like I said -- all their writing would have been fine -- or rather, tolerable -- if it had been fanfic.  That it was written, approved, and made canonical makes me wish I could tear out the portion of my brain where the knowledge of their writing survives...

Please, don't hold back.  ;)

I can definitely understand your point here. I think some (note, *some*) of the "this guy is better than any PC" thing comes from the idea that "If you give it stats, they will kill it." This was something Tom Dowd used to talk about in relation to important NPCs, and was one of the reasons you never (or only *very* rarely) saw official stats for any of the important characters in the SR world. The idea is if you provide fixed statistics, then the character can be killed/defeated. If you don't provide stats, the GM is free to let that character be as powerful (or skilled, etc.) as necessary for that character to serve their purpose in the story the GM and players are telling.

The important distinction here is that this is intended to help support the story, not just to make the characters "Mary Sues" (at least that's the intended idea... I can't say that some writers haven't done this to make their own pet characters extra cool).

As for the "England is better" thing, that's probably just patriotism.

Lastly, as for how this sort of stuff got to be "approved", as I remember, Tom (and I don't really know so much about MIke M. and later Developers) preferred to give authors a fair amount fo slack in developing things, so as to not limit them too much when contributing to the universe.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Nath

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« Reply #21 on: <10-29-11/0421:39> »
England is Bigger and Better and Bestest at magic than everyone else in the world, and they're so neat, and and and ...
Yet, French peasants with forks can stop a SAS commando and a Foreign Office face ;)

ARC

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« Reply #22 on: <10-29-11/0559:09> »
England is Bigger and Better and Bestest at magic than everyone else in the world, and they're so neat, and and and ...
Yet, French peasants with forks can stop a SAS commando and a Foreign Office face ;)

Yes, but the greatest French leader was frightened off by a herd of Fluffy Bunny Rabbits.  Not to mention the US had to bail them out when Germany overran their borders... Twice.
Living the Electronic Dream

CanRay

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« Reply #23 on: <10-29-11/1246:51> »
They held their own the first time (With British help, of course), and the second time, their government screwed the military over and they didn't have a chance (They certainly showed their courage at Dunkirk, however.).

And the US showed up late to both events.  Try to be on time next time.  ;)
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #24 on: <10-29-11/1252:40> »
Sorry. Damn snooze button....
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Deliverator

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« Reply #25 on: <10-29-11/1514:02> »
We didn't show up late. We showed up exactly when we meant to. Just because we got an invitation to come at a specific time doesn't mean we accepted :-p. Also, in both wars, if the USA didn't get involved we would all be speaking German.

Nath

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« Reply #26 on: <10-29-11/1559:36> »
And if the French didn't get involved in the American war of independence in the first place, the American colonies would have had to send troops in when London ordered it.

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #27 on: <10-29-11/1633:35> »
Let's calm this one down before the mods have to get involved. K?
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FastJack

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« Reply #28 on: <10-29-11/1949:06> »
Let's calm this one down before the mods have to get involved. K?
No, no, no... Let this go. I'd LOVE to say I locked a thread because of Franco-American relations during the War of Independence from almost 250 years ago.

CanRay

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« Reply #29 on: <10-29-11/1953:07> »
As a descendant of UE Loyalists that got to Canada a few steps ahead of being tarred and feathered, I only have this to say:  "Bloody Seps."  :P
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