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Permits

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Redwulfe

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« on: <03-20-11/1215:54> »
Looking to get a permit for a character, not a fake license. Where can I find this in the 4th ed books also does anyone know where the UCAS legal stuff is located now?

thanks all,
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CanRay

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« Reply #1 on: <03-20-11/1219:54> »
...

Getting it through illegal means is faster, cheaper, better, and won't get you denied at the end because you didn't check the right box in the middle of the process, wasting months of your life and hours of paperwork.   :P
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Ryo

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« Reply #2 on: <03-20-11/1629:35> »
I'm actually disappointed that there are no guidelines for making legal purchases anywhere in the source books. I mean, come on, some of us actually do take the SINner quality! What does a legal gun license cost? It should certainly be a lot less than the 600 big ones a decent fake will run you.

Charybdis

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« Reply #3 on: <03-20-11/1853:50> »
I'm actually disappointed that there are no guidelines for making legal purchases anywhere in the source books. I mean, come on, some of us actually do take the SINner quality! What does a legal gun license cost? It should certainly be a lot less than the 600 big ones a decent fake will run you.
Depends actually. Here's an Australian run-down
A) A normal gun license only entitles you to own it, and utilise it on private property or in registered firing-ranges. When stored or transported, gun and ammo must be kept in seperate containers.
B) Handguns are much more stringently monitored, and seperated into Target pistols vs Security (/Law-Enforcement, your standard Pistols)
C) A license to carry a VISIBLE handgun is limited to rent-acops and armed guards (who have to undergo a Psych test on application)
D) A License to carry a CONCEALED weapon (ie a Handgun under your coat) is restricted to security personnel only, normally undercover cops or high-level bodyguards
E) There are no civilian licenses available to carry a loaded rifle/shotgun in a public place. This is restricted to S.O.G. (Special Operations group aka 'Sons of God', basically the Aussie SWAT) and/or Military personnel. Both situations are closely monitored by authorities when deployed
F) there are no civilian licenses for Burst fire weapons (SMG,s Assault Rifles etc)

So, there's what we're stuck with down under. I know firearm laws are currently more liberal in the USA, but there's no standard reason why Seattle 2070 couldn't have similar laws. As it is, Knight Errant would have a specific contract for it's officers to carry firearms, The corps have extra-territoriality on their grounds, so can do whatever the hell they want, and Joe Average might not carry a gun (It's Seattle, NOT Texas :P )

As for why there aren't specific Legality rules for SINners, well, let's face it. Criminal SINner means you're not going to get a lot of legal firearms purchases anyway.
Joe Average SINner is a fractionof all shadowrunners, so I can forgive Catalyst for not including a whole ruleset that specifically caters to this very small minority :P
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CanRay

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« Reply #4 on: <03-20-11/1857:28> »
John Q. Wageslave is willing to go through a lot of paperwork and hassle to get the legal permit for his Colt L36 American so he can feel safe on the Monorail...  And has even more information about him included in his SIN registry due to the ownership.

John Q. Shadowrunner is willing to go through a lot of paperwork and hassle to get denied for his attempt at getting a legal permit for a Colt M23 so he can feel safe on a Shadowrun...  And has even more information about him included in his SIN registry due to the attempt at ownership.
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #5 on: <03-20-11/1937:43> »
The reason it came up was not even for legal gun licenses but for check point passes in New York. Some of the players wanted to flesh out there real world SIN so that they can try to avoid it and give it good background for when it does come up. Also sometimes they don't mind having there real SIN displayed when walking around. Keeps there fakes for when they need them, so they don't have them fail a check when they go through a check point in a situation that they legally should be able to do without drawing attention. I.E. If I live in one section of town and have a business in another when I go to a meet in that same section, why would I risk my fake SIN at the checkpoint when I can just use my legal one and get past with no problems. For now I just gave it to them for free as part of the SINner negative quality.

Red
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Charybdis

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« Reply #6 on: <03-20-11/1958:28> »
I.E. If I live in one section of town and have a business in another when I go to a meet in that same section, why would I risk my fake SIN at the checkpoint when I can just use my legal one and get past with no problems. For now I just gave it to them for free as part of the SINner negative quality.

Red
And that situation sounds perfectly legit :)

However

A) is this a Criminal SIN? If so, the guards are still going to give the PC grief whenever they go through the checkpoint, and will scan them for contraband much more regularly and thoroughly than Joe Average
B) is this a Civilian SIN? At which point when something Illegal pops up on a regular scan (which will happen eventually, due to Shadowrunners constantly having explosives residue, weird chemicals, firearms,  or cyberware around them) then their Civilian SIN now becomes a Criominal SIN.... Yay!  :'(

Unless the runner is BEHAVING like Joe Average on a regular basis, and carrying the equipment opf Joe Average (including permits for all cyberware as well as firearms), they're going to get some grief, and at the very least, asked for some 'Please Explains' regularly by the authorities...

It's a vicious Negative quality for a shadowrunner.... so while I applaud the PC's for wanting to flesh out the details, this quality should be more of a hindrance than a help (especially if Blood/Saliva/Sweat is left on a run... a SIN includes a full DNA markup, and if matched, will now advise that Joe Average regularly goes through Checkpoints A and B on their way to work.... )
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'Names are irrelevant. Which fake ID do you want me to quote from?'

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Redwulfe

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« Reply #7 on: <03-20-11/2318:38> »
I.E. If I live in one section of town and have a business in another when I go to a meet in that same section, why would I risk my fake SIN at the checkpoint when I can just use my legal one and get past with no problems. For now I just gave it to them for free as part of the SINner negative quality.

Red
And that situation sounds perfectly legit :)

You must have misunderstood, my players are note trying to fool me or use there hindrances as advantages. We are a very story driven group. Backgrounds are an everyday part of that. We all go to great lengths to bring the story to life and knowing how you SIN ties you to the world is a part of that.

However

A) is this a Criminal SIN? If so, the guards are still going to give the PC grief whenever they go through the checkpoint, and will scan them for contraband much more regularly and thoroughly than Joe Average
B) is this a Civilian SIN? At which point when something Illegal pops up on a regular scan (which will happen eventually, due to Shadowrunners constantly having explosives residue, weird chemicals, firearms,  or cyberware around them) then their Civilian SIN now becomes a Criominal SIN.... Yay!  :'(

Explosive residue? Weird chemicals? Regular scan? if this is a regular scan then even a perk like a fake SIN will not get them by. The second one of these comes up, they would be screwed. I don't think that scans of this sort would be used in everyday traffic of millions of contrite trying to get to work in one of the largest corporate owned strutters in the world. Commerce would come to a scratching halt. People need to be able to walk by and at the most there pass would be checked. Those with black passes may be pulled out of line to face a chem sniff and mag scanner but not everyone. On a bad day they may start pulling at random but not every day.

Also having your SIN turned to a criminal one is the least of a runners worries in Manhattan.especially since that would happen if you where a SINner or not. The SINless in Manhattan are also worse of than the SINed as they are usually beaten in public to prove a point. Runners on the other hand have abetted chance at catching a break as they work for the corporations that own the city, but it still means a hefty bribe on a good day and a beating on a bad one if you are SINless. The ones with SINs get off with just having there SIN turned criminal? That would be a slap on the wrist if you asked me.

Unless the runner is BEHAVING like Joe Average on a regular basis, and carrying the equipment opf Joe Average (including permits for all cyberware as well as firearms), they're going to get some grief, and at the very least, asked for some 'Please Explains' regularly by the authorities...

It's a vicious Negative quality for a shadowrunner.... so while I applaud the PC's for wanting to flesh out the details, this quality should be more of a hindrance than a help (especially if Blood/Saliva/Sweat is left on a run... a SIN includes a full DNA markup, and if matched, will now advise that Joe Average regularly goes through Checkpoints A and B on their way to work.... )

At 5 points I wouldn't call it vicious, it is a negative one but not vicious. The problem with having a SIN is not having it one day turn negative, the problem is having it track you down. You see, every time you use a SIN real or fake you leave a trail. Fake ones can simply be burned, real ones can not. If I use the real SIN to pass the check point from a to b everyday then there is a trail of that. If I go in to buy something minor for a run there is a trail to that, if I use it to book a restaurant there is a trail of that, and the more I use it the bigger my nearly unburnable trail becomes. One minor slip on a job and a data search latter and my trail to me real life comes barreling down on me. One fingerprint, one skin flake, one hair sample and boom the Corp I just hit knows about me. Luckily my players are smart they play well and try to keep the authorities and corps at bay and when they do do a run they make sure that the payback is mitigated as much as possible.

They don't use regular amor they use stun spells they don't destroy corporate property you less any of that is unavoidable. You see corps care only about money and though you may have cost them some every family they have to pay pension to, every training dollar they have to spend on a replacement, every cent that have in repairs to a major facile, and every PR coverup they have to spin is a tick on the kill the runners and the people who hired them scale. It is inevitable that someone will wish payback but the amount can be negotiated.

But we may be running of track. After every game I add to a file I keep on every runner in the game. This file is the investigation report that those involved will actually do. If you mess up it will have reproductions in the game. The number of characters that have lost there lives due to weighting the scale mentioned above coupled with the DNA left behind that got the investigators onto the trail and the amount of times they used there free checkpoint pass to create the trail that got them killed makes me wonder why SINner is only 5 points. It should be much more. The only thing i can come up with is that its also has its perks. It will eventually get your charcter killed or force his early retirement though so it is a 5 point negative quality overall. This being said I still have players who wish to try and see how long they can last on that bull ride. Trust me it is a hindrance and I will let them have as much free rope as they wish to eventually hang themselves with but the story it creates as they try to survive the inevitable is worth it to Bo them and me.

As I said criminal SIN is the least of my players worry, this flaw will kill them. I think I finally found the cost, it just costs time in game, nothing more, well maybe 5-10 new yen for processing fees, the players have enough to worry about without needing a cost on top of that.
Red
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Exodus

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« Reply #8 on: <03-21-11/0012:33> »
Well to answer your question about legal carry permits... ummm, officially I don't know. What I do know is in the real Manhattan you need an exceptional reason to carry a handgun.

Since Manhattan is all about strict control of social strata your average player wouldn't be able to carry concealed on the island unless they were a registered bodyguard and on the job. Personally that's how I'd rule it. I'm running a game in Manhattan myself but all the players are in Terminal or The Pit right now so NYPD inc. isn't a factor.
« Last Edit: <03-21-11/0022:54> by Exodus »
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Charybdis

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« Reply #9 on: <03-21-11/0036:04> »
However

A) is this a Criminal SIN? If so, the guards are still going to give the PC grief whenever they go through the checkpoint, and will scan them for contraband much more regularly and thoroughly than Joe Average
B) is this a Civilian SIN? At which point when something Illegal pops up on a regular scan (which will happen eventually, due to Shadowrunners constantly having explosives residue, weird chemicals, firearms,  or cyberware around them) then their Civilian SIN now becomes a Criominal SIN.... Yay!  :'(

Explosive residue? Weird chemicals? Regular scan? if this is a regular scan then even a perk like a fake SIN will not get them by. The second one of these comes up, they would be screwed. I don't think that scans of this sort would be used in everyday traffic of millions of contrite trying to get to work in one of the largest corporate owned strutters in the world. Commerce would come to a scratching halt. People need to be able to walk by and at the most there pass would be checked. Those with black passes may be pulled out of line to face a chem sniff and mag scanner but not everyone. On a bad day they may start pulling at random but not every day.

Also having your SIN turned to a criminal one is the least of a runners worries in Manhattan.especially since that would happen if you where a SINner or not. The SINless in Manhattan are also worse of than the SINed as they are usually beaten in public to prove a point. Runners on the other hand have abetted chance at catching a break as they work for the corporations that own the city, but it still means a hefty bribe on a good day and a beating on a bad one if you are SINless. The ones with SINs get off with just having there SIN turned criminal? That would be a slap on the wrist if you asked me.
A) Actually, these scanners (MAD, Chemsniffer etc) are in place everywhere, every day in 2070 plus (at least in Seattle. Haven't read about Manhattan specifically). They are as un-intrusive as the current Shoplifter scanners in any department store. Granted, they may be dialled up to be a bit less sensitive, with the prevalence of more metal in people's bodies, but they can be anywhere, inbuilt unobtrusively into a wall, and very much a surprise.
B) No, the ones with SIN's get locked up, jailed, and THEN beaten up and having their SIN turned into a Criminal SIN.
C) I haven't quoted the rest of your post (as it was well written, but quite long :) ), but your summary on Datafiles and investigation records is excellent. As for the leaving of ophysical traces and analysis, you're right in that it's a cost-vs-reward exercise for any corp. However, the moment they stop caring about the public snooping, they will hand over their gathered evidence to NYPD (or the local authority) to say 'These are the material traces for the unauthorised entry we'd like to report on from last month'. It may then get buried in red tape for a year, but someone is going to have a very legitimate reason to knock on your SINner's door.
D) For 5 points, it shouldn't be a hindrance every mission... but especially if the PC's are getting some assistance out of it, it should be played as either a MASSIVE problem every now and then, or at least a regular annoyance.
« Last Edit: <03-22-11/1850:30> by Charybdis »
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Phreak Commandment V:
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esprism

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« Reply #10 on: <03-21-11/0909:46> »
My rule is : If you have a SIN, you get the licence you want (at character creation) for free if your "official life" justify it.
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CanRay

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« Reply #11 on: <03-21-11/1155:28> »
Or part of the Lifestyle.  I mean, driver's license has to be part of the vehicle maintenance...
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #12 on: <03-21-11/1309:12> »
A) Actually, these scanners (MAD, Chemsniffer etc) are in place everywhere, every day in 2070 plus (at least in Seattle. Haven't read about Manhattan specifically). They are as un-intrusive as the current Shoplifter scanners in any department store. Granted, they may be dialled up to be a bit less sensitive, with the prevalence of more metal in people's bodies, but they can be anywhere, inbuilt unobtrusively into a wall, and very much a surprise.
B) No, the ones with SIN's get locked up, jailed, and THEN beaten up and having their SIN turned into a Criminal SIN.
C) I haven't quoted the rest of your post (as it was well written, but quite long :) ), but your summary on Datafiles and investigation records is excellent. As for the leaving of ophysical traces and analysis, you're right in that it's a cost-vs-reward exercise for any corp. However, the moment they stop caring about the public snooping, they will hand over their gathered evidence to NYPD (or the local authority) to say 'These are the material traces for the unauthorised entry we'd like to report on from last month'. It may then get buried in red tape for a year, but someone is going to have a very legitimate reason to knock on your SINner's door.
D) For 5 points, it shouldn't be a hindrance every mission... but especially if the PC's are getting some assistance out of it, it should be played as either a MASSIVE problem every now and then, or at least a regular annoyance.

A) True, I guess I am think to much on the lines of a hand scanner when I responded to this. I think most runners will be able to get around this any way thats what skimmers are for.the team that i have have set up several lifestyles in many areas of Manhattan and Newark to hide gear they may need so they don't have to cross points with them in toe and they try not to use explosives or weird chemicals if they can get by without it, and then that's what Skimmers are for. :)

B)I had read in the rotten Apple that Public beatings happened more often than not, jail came after. I may have read into something or read it wrong as well. It happens, to each there own world. My Manhattan is very frightening for the SINless.

C)Yes I tend to be a bit winded. :) Yep I fully agree. When we first got the group together to play i warned them that I don't like killing players but Shadowrun and Darksun are two game where I feel character death is inevitable. Its how long you can stay alive that's the trick. At first we lost a character every week. Then it slowly trickled down over time and this was in Seattle. they are now wanting to try there hand in a more scrutinizing and deadly environment for the criminally inclined so we are gearing up for NYC. First game is in two weeks so I want to be prepared. I tend to keep a running file on every runner from the investigators point of view. who knows what and how much. they can get tidbits of what others know from word on the street, as they don't know what there public pop(the file) is, or from news casts after a run. they tend to watch these like hawks looking for any clues that mean that someone is on to them. I have turned them into a very paranoid group. :) but it is a fun game. :)

D)Yep thats what happens, so i fully agree with that.

Red
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #13 on: <03-21-11/1309:57> »
My rule is : If you have a SIN, you get the licence you want (at character creation) for free if your "official life" justify it.

Yea, I think this is the way I'm going to handle it as well.

thanks,
Red
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esprism

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« Reply #14 on: <03-21-11/1401:16> »
Or part of the Lifestyle.  I mean, driver's license has to be part of the vehicle maintenance...

Good idea to take into account the lifestyle. I don't think I'll refuse driver's licence to a SINner player with lifestyle under "low" but for some others licences it can be determinant.
Can I do a structural analysis ?
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