Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Xenon on <08-06-19/0612:58>

Title: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-06-19/0612:58>
This post is about Physical Adepts, the discussion about Mystical Adepts can be found here:
https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29745.0



During character generation 1 point of unadjusted magic from the Magic or Resonance priority seem to give a Physical Adept 1 free Power Point.

p. 66
"Adepts have a pool of points equal to their Magic (as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments) that they use to purchase adept powers."

It seem as if adjusting Magic to a higher value (due to for example spending Adjustment Points or Karma on Magic) does not yield any extra Power Points (at least not during character generation). At least this seem to be the intent of the above rule.

If your essence is reduced below any whole integer then magic is also reduced. Book does not mention anything about the effects of dropping your current magic rating to zero. And it also does not say anything about reducing your maximum magic rating. That no matter how much augmentations you get you can always increase your magic rating to 6 (+  Initiation Grade) by spending Karma. It also seem as if adjusting Magic to a lower value (due to for example buying Augmentations during character generation) don't mean you lose any of your free Power Points you got from your Magic and Resonance priority selection... Interesting.



Then you have rules that seem to conflict a bit.

p. 156
"Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point".

I would assume that this does not apply during chargen. However, if this is the intent then the next sentence does a shitty job of clarifying it:

p. 156
"This means that an adept character who starts with a Magic rating of 4 also starts with 4 power points.

Are we to assume that that when they are talking about Magic rating in the quote above they are actually talking about an adept character that picked Magic or Resonance priority A (Magic 4) and did not spend any Adjustment points or Karma on Magic and also did not buy any augmentations...? (seem a bit far fetched to be honest, but not impossible I guess).


But post chargen it seems clear that whenever the physical adept raise their magic (through Karma) they gain one power point. It seem as if they can also gain a power point via initiation, which will generally be cheaper (but if they for example start with Magic rating 1 -or even zero due to augmentations- then it seem to be cheaper to get that next power point by raising magic rating with karma).


This sound as if you can potentially gain a max of 12 power points without initiation by having a Magic and Resonance magic priority during chargen in addition to a combination of alternating lowering your magic rating with augmentations and raising your magic rating with Karma post chargen.

...unless you spend karma or adjustment points on magic during chargen since this does not seem to grant you free Power Points?? If I read this correctly you should probably never, as a Physical Adept anyway, spend karma or adjustment points on magic during character generation (since this will basically just make your magic rating more expansive without giving you any power points in return).

This part feels very strange.

But the alternative is also not optimal. If we were to gain free power points during chargen whenever we spend adjustment points or karma to raise Magic then then you should probably never prioritize Magic or Resonance higher than D for a Physical Adept since you get far more adjustment points from Metatype than you get magic points from Magic or Resonance.

And there also does not seem to be any real drawbacks for a physical adept from getting augmentations (except maybe that it gets harder for magicians to cast various healing and increasing spells on you). Magic rating is not totally useless for a physical adept (there are some activated adept powers that depend on your magic rating), but it is also not used nearly as much as it is for spellslingers.

If anything, getting augmentations just to reduce your magic rating seem to make it cheaper once you plan on investing karma to get that next power point....
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Lormyr on <08-06-19/0717:05>
I am strongly of the opinion that attempting to limit magical resources (power points, spells, complex forms) to being determined by your priority selection alone is both silly and poor design. Not only that, but considering how easy it is to raise your magic attribute at character creation it also flies directly against the goal of making this edition simpler. It should all be based on the final magic attribute at character creation.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-06-19/0817:42>
It should all be based on the final magic attribute at character creation.
As written the rules don't really match up for physical adepts. There seem to be a gap that does not feel natural to cross. It could for sure require some clarification (or even alteration).

Having said that, your suggestion would have the side effect that you would never want to prioritize Magic and Resonance higher than D as a Physcial Adept since each rank in this category is only 'worth' 1 single Power Point. If you want additional power points you would instead prioritize Metatype which by comparison give you between x3 and x5 as many points per rank....

Maybe if there was also a new rule that limited you from spending more Adjustment Points than the original attribute rating for the attribute you are adjusting.

This, together with an additional new rule that make you lose a Power Point when you lose a Magic rating would mean augmentations would 'cost' a bit more for Physical Adepts than than they currently do. Feel like you currently might as well burn out on augmentations and instead your magic rating from 0 to 1 (or perhaps from 1 to 2) the first thing you do post chargen.

....but now we are getting rather far away from the rules as they are currently written and intended to work.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Lormyr on <08-06-19/0841:42>
As written the rules don't really match up for physical adepts. There seem to be a gap that does not feel natural to cross. It could for sure require some clarification (or even alteration).

I don't think the gap can be clarified. It is a direct contradiction. They can certainly alter it, however.

Having said that, your suggestion would have the side effect that you would never want to prioritize Magic and Resonance higher than D as a Physcial Adept

I know. I also don't think that is an issue since there are already many priority selections you always/never (usually/rarely) want to make as is.

Maybe if there was also a new rule that limited you from spending more Adjustment Points than the original attribute rating for the attribute you are adjusting.

I can't even find language stating where the ranks of powers are capped, and if so, capped to what. Obviously your magic attribute as the rank cap is the assumption, but hell if I can find where it states that.

This, together with an additional new rule that make you lose a Power Point when you lose a Magic rating would mean augmentations would 'cost' a bit more for Physical Adepts than than they currently do. Feel like you currently might as well burn out on augmentations and instead your magic rating from 0 to 1 (or perhaps from 1 to 2) the first thing you do post chargen.

Absolutely agree that essence loss should equate to magic loss should equate to power point loss. I like that it doesn't currently effect resonance though.

Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-06-19/0856:56>
So the weird part here is that there is never any statement in the RAW on Adepts losing PP (huehuehue...) when their Magic rating gets lowered, but they still get PP whenever they raise it - which would lead to a situation where they can theoretically use the (already pretty broken) burnout/buyback interaction to cheese out an ridiculous amout of PP for minimal Karma? Correct?

Honestly, I don´t know just how bad this section is written, but if a burnout Adept player would argue for this interpretation at my table, he´d be in for some serious phonebooking. I mean, I´d never underestimate the absolute adamant determination of our most favourite line developer to make magic the absolute strongest option in the 6th world in every case. But I´m pretty sure that the RAW are just faulty/poorly phrased here. Probably because the writers assumed that this part is self-explanatory or assumed that the players know how it worked in the previous editions.

The RAI is very likely simply:
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-06-19/0924:17>
...burnout/buyback interaction to cheese out an ridiculous amout of PP for minimal Karma? Correct?
Well, for each power point you want in this manner you would need to see the clinic to drop you below the next integer of essence before you spend karma to again raise your magic rating. Never having more than magic rating of 1 (at least not until you finally spend >5 essence on augmentations mixed with 30+ karma on power points). After your 6 first power points they will start to cost 10+ karma (through initiation or raising magic above 1). Currently it seem to be rules legal, but it is also seem to be a lot of trouble for just a few power points.

If it was the other way around, that raising magic always gave you a free power point (even if it come from adjustment points during chargen) and that power points drop if your magic drop then you would gain your 6 power points for free directly at chargen (but in this case no augmentations) by simply picking metatype C instead of metatype D (say hello to level 4 improved reflexes).

...or still go burnout, by exiting chargen with 5+ essence worth of augmentations and begin raising your magic rating (and gaining power points) from zero with karma.


Probably because the writers assumed that this part is self-explanatory or assumed that the players know how it worked in the previous editions.
In previous edition you would also gain free power points if your magic rating is increased during chargen. In this edition you only seem to gain free power points during chargen from the Magic or Resonance priority.


The RAI is very likely...
In that case we would need an errata that correct Magic or Resonance but specifically only when it comes to Physical Adepts, not Mystic Adepts, Full Magicians nor Aspected Magicians (at p. 66)

I actually don't think that is likely. It doesn't seem as if you are supposed to lose Power Points in this edition (same as you are not supposed to lose your free Spells if your magic rating is adjusted down in case of Full/Aspected Magicians and Mystic Adepts).
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-06-19/1003:44>
Man that rule seems terrible. If things like power focused adjust magic rating I’d get it if they meant that. But not points at char gen from adjustment due to racial priority. To trolls have an asterisked body when they put racial points in there, nope. So why magic.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-06-19/1128:33>
In previous edition you would also gain free power points if your magic rating is increased during chargen. In this edition you only seem to gain free power points during chargen from the Magic or Resonance priority.

From what I´ve heard, in this edition they primarily did one thing: Ramp the bad editing and rules writing up to eleven.

Until there´s an official statement that specifically spells out: "Ah yes, correct: We changed pretty much everything about how PP generation for Adepts work in a way that makes no fucking sense whatsoever LOL", I´d assume that the RAI is still just like 5th Edition and the description is just worded extremely bad (or missing key sentences because of editing fuckuppery). 

So, before you make it too hard for the big brain guys at CGL gamelabs by confusing them with conclusions drawn from the current RAW, here´s the one question that needs to be asked before anything else:

Dear CGL writers: Is there anything about Adepts, Magic and Power Points that is supposed to be fundamentally different compared to 5th Edition?

If the answer is "No" (and I highly suspect it), there´s your RAI. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-06-19/1132:11>
Dear CGL writers: Is there anything about Adepts, Magic and Power Points that is supposed to be fundamentally different compared to 5th Edition?

If the answer is "No" (and I highly suspect it), there´s your RAI.

As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-06-19/1136:59>
Dear CGL writers: Is there anything about Adepts, Magic and Power Points that is supposed to be fundamentally different compared to 5th Edition?

If the answer is "No" (and I highly suspect it), there´s your RAI.

As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.

That may be the case, but that is something that has more to do with the chargen process and not with the way Magic and PP interact.

The main point of contention here is when you get or lose PP as an adept. In 5th and 4th Edition, the amount of PP a PhysAd has is almost always pretty much equal to the Magic rating. Raise your Magic, get a PP. Lose Magic because of Essence loss, and you lose PP as well (In 4th Edition, you could even temporarily lose access to some of your PP because of background count).

AFAIK, that should be the case in 6th Edition as well. But it seems like some core sentences are missing in the description.   
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-06-19/1153:03>

As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.

FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.

Clarification on Burn-out rules would be appreciated, even a casual "Max magic is unchanged by Essence loss per RAW" forum statement would be nice.  Just so we know, yes this makes burn outs easier, we're okay with that and carry on.

And did anyone find a rule explicitly reducing Magic (Resonance) to 0 means your Adept powers / spellcasting / summoning / Resonance / whatever actually stops?  I skimmed through the likely sections but couldn't find anything explicit. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-06-19/1310:38>
Clarification on Burn-out rules would be appreciated, even a casual "Max magic is unchanged by Essence loss per RAW" forum statement would be nice.  Just so we know, yes this makes burn outs easier, we're okay with that and carry on.

Sure about that? Because a lot of people seem to think that burning out is already a pretty powerfull option for adepts - especially because of the "get ware, drop to 1, then raise Magic cheaply with Karma"-cheese.

Burning out should be a costly option, by lore and for balancing. Essence loss should reduce max Magic and the current Magic score without reducing the Advancement cost for the Magic Attribute.  And it should definitely cost you the PP from your Magic Attribute. And RAW, not even that seems to be the case.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-06-19/1318:53>
As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.
I agree.


If you break it down, the rules for power points in 6we are actually very simple;

    1. At chargen you always only get power point(s) from your Magic or Resonance priority (minimum 1 point at priority D and maximum 4 points at priority A).

    2. After chargen you always only get a power point when you either increase your current magic with karma (max magic is always equal to 6 + initiation grade).

    3. or if you select a power point during initiation (max initiation grade is always equal to your current magic).

That's it really. Nothing else beyond the three rules above seem to add or remove power points.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-06-19/1327:25>
And that's important, as while you lose essence and therefore magic for burning out with cyberware, by RAW I don't believe adepts lose Power Points.  And it just might be entirely intended to be that way.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-06-19/1328:43>
As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.
I agree.


If you break it down, the rules for power points in 6we are actually very simple;

    1. At chargen you always only get power point(s) from your Magic or Resonance priority (minimum 1 point at priority D and maximum 4 points at priority A).

    2. After chargen you always only get a power point when you either increase your current magic with karma (max magic is always equal to 6 + initiation grade).

    3. or if you select a power point during initiation (max initiation grade is always equal to your current magic).

That's it really. Nothing else beyond the three rules above seem to add or remove power points.

Agreed.  And I actually like that it's that simple and think it should stay that simple.  YMMV.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-06-19/1333:30>
Sure about that? Because a lot of people seem to think that burning out is already a pretty powerfull option for adepts - especially because of the "get ware, drop to 1, then raise Magic cheaply with Karma"-cheese.

Spellcasting and Summoning are far and away the most powerful PC abilities in Shadowrun.  Things that buff non-Mages are fine, IMO.  YMMV.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-06-19/1336:46>
Oh....... might have found an issue:


In this edition, how are Physical Adepts supposed to Initiate??


6WE p. 167 Initiation
To start initiation, make a [highest Magic skill] + Magic (desired Initiate Grade) Extended test, with an interval of one month and spend (10 + desired Initiate Grade) Karma.

What Magic skill would that be? ;-)
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-06-19/1340:23>
Oh....... might have found an issue:


In this edition, how are Physical Adepts supposed to Initiate??


6WE p. 167 Initiation
To start initiation, make a [highest Magic skill] + Magic (desired Initiate Grade) Extended test, with an interval of one month and spend (10 + desired Initiate Grade) Karma.

What Magic skill would that be? ;-)

Well, it doesn't say "Skill with Magic as a linked attribute", so it means for Adepts the same thing it means for any other magician? A skill you use your Magic with... obviously Close Combat in a lot of Adepts' cases...
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-06-19/1502:55>
Oh....... might have found an issue:


In this edition, how are Physical Adepts supposed to Initiate??


6WE p. 167 Initiation
To start initiation, make a [highest Magic skill] + Magic (desired Initiate Grade) Extended test, with an interval of one month and spend (10 + desired Initiate Grade) Karma.

What Magic skill would that be? ;-)

Assensing?  Magic skill any Adept should be able to take.   SSDR's ruling would be better though.  But Assensing should be universally accessible to anyone with a Magic Attribute IIRC.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Typhus on <08-06-19/1654:31>
Quote
Well, it doesn't say "Skill with Magic as a linked attribute", so it means for Adepts the same thing it means for any other magician? A skill you use your Magic with... obviously Close Combat in a lot of Adepts' cases...

Yeah, I am terrible with staying quiet as I see these, apparently.  I've written too many instruction docs in my day, I guess.

I would only intuit your interpretation because I am an old school player familiar with old write ups of initiation which allowed you make physical tests as an adept as part of an ordeal though (in fact I mentally assumed this much after the first time I read it).  However, to someone without that, this reads like "skill linked with Magic attribute" (particularly given the capitalization), and is immediately made confusing by the absence of any roll by Adepts that uses the Magic attribute.  Or it suggests that there is an unspoken classification of Magical Skills not mentioned in the book, which there of course is not, though there was in 5E, which probably explains the origin of the formula as written, I assume.

Lastly, it also breaks some of the formatting conventions elsewhere in the book in how it uses the brackets.  In this case, by trying to use the convention for that formula, it actually harder to understand what it means, due to the brevity of text between the brackets. 

A clearer presentation would be: 

To start an initiation, select your highest ranked skill you use for tests with magical abilities (if you are an adept or mystic adept, you may use your highest ranked physical skill instead), and make an Extended test using [Skill] + Magic (Desired Grade, 1 month).  Once you are successful, you spend Karma equal to (10 + desired Initiate Grade).

It's clearer, accurate, and also not a run-on sentence. 

I have to stop there, or I'll be standing on more toes than I may be already.  Cheers.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-06-19/1824:46>
A clearer presentation would be: 

To start an initiation, select your highest ranked skill you use for tests with magical abilities (if you are an adept or mystic adept, you may use your highest ranked physical skill instead), and make an Extended test using [Skill] + Magic (Desired Grade, 1 month).  Once you are successful, you spend Karma equal to (10 + desired Initiate Grade).

It's clearer, accurate, and also not a run-on sentence. 
+1


Assensing? 
In SR5 you had a group of Magical Skills and for Initiation you used 'Arcana'.

In SR6 you have Sorcery, Conjuring and Enchanting (which a Physical Adept is not eligible).

You also have the Astral skill (which is used for Assensing as you talked about, as well as Astral Combat skill and a few other things). I guess this could be used, but in order to be allowed to take Astral you first need to have Astral Perception, and since Physical Adepts only start with 1-4 Power Points they would have to dedicate 25%-100% of their entire power point pool.... :-/


Well, it doesn't say "Skill with Magic as a linked attribute", so it means for Adepts the same thing it means for any other magician? A skill you use your Magic with... obviously Close Combat in a lot of Adepts' cases...
I like this. Will roll with this.

However, if this was the original intent they could have been a tad bit more clear about it. To be honest, I don't think they thought about Physical Adepts when they wrote this.

(Initiation for Physical Adepts is probably a candidate for an official clarification/errata)
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-06-19/1832:58>
There's indeed some holes, and it's unknown what caused them: Is it change-blindness, deliberate change, something else? I know my preferences but for now all I can do is ask around and hope Power Points gets clarified/errataed soon.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Typhus on <08-06-19/1859:39>
As an older school player I don't see anything that would prevent me from defaulting to the older rules of 1:1 at all times.  Is there any other rule that specifically contradicts it? 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-07-19/0550:51>
As near as I can tell, the intent is that unlike in 5e, in 6we you don't get to spend chargen karma on more magic stuff.  You get what's in your priority and that's it.  No initiation, but also no additional spells or Power Points.
FWIW I concur.  That seems to be the sole motivation for a higher Magic Priority.
I agree.


If you break it down, the rules for power points in 6we are actually very simple;

    1. At chargen you always only get power point(s) from your Magic or Resonance priority (minimum 1 point at priority D and maximum 4 points at priority A).

    2. After chargen you always only get a power point when you either increase your current magic with karma (max magic is always equal to 6 + initiation grade).

    3. or if you select a power point during initiation (max initiation grade is always equal to your current magic).

That's it really. Nothing else beyond the three rules above seem to add or remove power points.

Agreed.  And I actually like that it's that simple and think it should stay that simple.  YMMV.

Are you serious or did you just overread the "remove" part?

The main advantage Adepts have from Magic is the fact that they get power points from it. There´s only a handfull of other perks that use Magic. If an Adept actually (I´m still pretty sure that this is not RAI. But hey, it´s CGL...) can lose magic due to Essence loss without losing power points as well, then there´s literally no drawback for adepts getting augments and burning out.

And if you interpret the RAW in a really, really, really cheesy way, just like Xenon demonstrated in the beginning, then burning out can even leave the Adept in a better spot than before PP-wise, because he´d still get a power point for raising his Magic Attribute - which he could do a lot cheaper after lowering it by losing Essence(1). Theoretically, an Adept could start with Magic 2 (and 2 PP), get 1 Essence worth of Augments to drop to Magic 1, then buy back the lost point of Magic for as cheap as 10 Karma and repeat this process until his Karma or Essence runs out. For as cheap as 50 Karma, you´d have a Adept that´s augmented to the gills with Magic 2 and 7 PP - more than an unaugmented Adept could have without Initiation. I mean, I hope we can at least agree that this is not intended? Right? RIGHT?!?

So, you like it simple, Hobbes? How about this:

Phsyical Adepts HAVE(2) an amount of Power Points equal to their Magic Attribute. This means that when they (permanently) raise their Magic Attribute, they raise the amount of Power Points, and when they lower their Magic Attribute (primarily due to essence loss), they lose Power Points. They can get additional Power Points by Initiating and chosing the corresponding Metamagic Technique.


(1) And that part alone is bad enough! It´s the reason why Burnout Adepts where so cheesy in 5th Edition. IMO Essence loss should provide a constant reduction of the current Magic rating instead of lowering once it so it can be cheaply bought back with Karma. I.e. when I have Magic 4 and drop to 1 Magic because of 3 Essence worth of Augmentations, raising that Magic Attribute back to 2 should not cost 10 Karma, but the 25 that´s needed to raise Magic 4 to Magic 5. AFAIK, that´s how it worked in 4th Edition. Tough times for burnouts. Just as it should be.

(2) Note: I deliberately avoided the word GET here. Nothing that can cause (malicious) confusion for the grognards, rules-lawyers and cheeselords on when it "triggers".
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-07-19/0743:37>

And if you interpret the RAW in a really, really, really cheesy way, just like Xenon demonstrated in the beginning, then burning out can even leave the Adept in a better spot than before PP-wise, because he´d still get a power point for raising his Magic Attribute - which he could do a lot cheaper after lowering it by losing Essence(1). Theoretically, an Adept could start with Magic 2 (and 2 PP), get 1 Essence worth of Augments to drop to Magic 1, then buy back the lost point of Magic for as cheap as 10 Karma and repeat this process until his Karma or Essence runs out. For as cheap as 50 Karma, you´d have a Adept that´s augmented to the gills with Magic 2 and 7 PP - more than an unaugmented Adept could have without Initiation. I mean, I hope we can at least agree that this is not intended? Right? RIGHT?!?


That is basically the current RAW.  I expect Errata or Missions FAQ or whatever to change it, but that is what is in the Core Book.  Thus, the discussions. 

I'm okay with it.  Its far less unbalanced than letting someone start with 2 Attribute points. 

I played Earthdawn, all the PCs were Adepts of some kind or another, it worked out.  I'm fine with a "D" priority choice unlocking the all the character advancement paths for any PCs. 

E Metatype, D Magic, and arrange A, B, and C as needed.  You've got 1 Power Point, go nuts.  You gave up 3 Adjustment Points to get it, so basically 3 Attribute points for 1 PP?  That's a significant opportunity cost. 

IMO, this lets everyone play a Burnout if they want to.  Previous editions Burnouts were mechanically fiddly critters.  6th Edition, they're mechanically simpler.  I don't expect it to stand, but it could.  The only reason to change it back to the way it was, is because that's the way it was.

It's still a character choice that many players will simply not take.  And it's not some mechanical trap to take Magic E, you're picking up something fairly significant with your "D" option. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-07-19/0751:11>
That is basically the current RAW.  I expect Errata or Missions FAQ or whatever to change it, but that is what is in the Core Book.  Thus, the discussions. 

I'm okay with it.  Its far less unbalanced than letting someone start with 2 Attribute points.

Stares in disbelief

... Well, here´s to hope that the errata team has a better grip on this.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-07-19/1054:54>
Magic Priority choices gives you the least bang for the buck at chargen.  1 Attribute point, and either 2 Spells or 1 PP (or 2 Complex Forms).  Every other Priority gives you more.  It's a valid Long Term build vs. Starting power level character choice. 

I tried to break it with Priority D Adepts, couldn't, made peace with it.  Melee focused characters pick up a couple DV but lose off stats and Edge.  Hackers, Faces, and such it makes very little difference as the Adept Powers available are just Core Book, so it's basically a couple extra dice to a Skill.  Again at the cost of off stats and Edge.

Priority A Magic Adepts are spending their A.  That's huge.  B Stats, C Skills, D Resources, E Meta?  You're not burning out much anyway.  And increasing Resources is going to chew up a lot of Skill point or Attribute points.  You'd need to be happy with a very focused build.  One Punch the Troll or something.

D Magic Priority Spellcasters with two Spells are deferring Initiation and all the other magical goodies for a long time if they start with just two Spells.  And at the high end of Magic Priority Spellcasters and Summoners aren't likely coming out ahead by giving up Spellcasting and Summoning dice to pick up 'ware. 

If it changes, so be it.  If it doesn't it's really not that big of a deal.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-07-19/1330:30>
And what has this to do with Burnout Adepts being able to cheese a ridiculous amount of PP (easily more than a "pure" adept for the same Karma) out of the system because someone very likely forgot to mention in the RAW that you also lose PP when your lower your magic Attribute? Do you think this obvious loophole is justified because the new priorities is giving adepts less Magic for their investment?

Also: what you describe is mainly a problem because in the new RAW, the Special Attribute Points from the Metatype Priority can be used to increase the Magic rating, but don´t increase the number of PP when doing so for whatever reason (which would also be an extremely unintuitive change from 5th Edition. I mean, is any of this shit even intended or is this all just another case of bad / incomplete rules writing?)

Again, the first and most important question to the big brain rules writers behind this should be: Is there any (intended) change to they way Adepts get Power Points compared to 5th Edition?  

Because somehow, I´m still almost 100% sure that the answer to this question is "No, not really. Adepts have as much PP as their Magic Attribute."
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-07-19/1409:51>
And what has this to do with Burnout Adepts being able to cheese a ridiculous amount of PP (easily more than a "pure" adept for the same Karma) out of the system because someone very likely forgot to mention in the RAW that you also lose PP when your lower your magic Attribute? Do you think this obvious loophole is justified because the new priorities is giving adepts less Magic for their investment?


I believe that a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.  The particular combination of Errors that resulted in the weirdness around PP isn't some game breaking flaw.  Play around with characters and the new Priority table.  5th Edition Priority is a kind and forgiving character generation method compared to 6th. 

Physical Adepts are the long game.  Slow start, big finish.  They can increase powers three ways, increase magic, Initiate, and Foci.  2 of those 3 cost the same Burn out or not.  The Burn-out likely had to spend some Adjustment points or Karma during chargen to stay at Magic 1.  And with the lower Initiation costs in 6th the burn-out Karma advantage is only a few points over the first 50 karma and is essentially even after that.

Attributes A, Skills B, Metatype C, Magic D, Resources E is a valid character.  It's a Natural Adept with the same power point growth curve as a burn-out, but with a broader starting point because of the lower Resources priority but more skills and better off stats/edge. 

The reason to not change the RAW is that people bought the book and made characters.  And when you issue Errata that impacts char gen you break peoples characters.  That's bad. 

Letting Adepts gain PP at char gen with Magic Increases means the optimal Phys Ad is Magic D.  Weather that's good or bad is 100% Subjective. 

Adding in Burn-out Rules and Power Point loss doesn't stop players like me from creating Burn-out Adepts that are flat better than Natural Adepts.  It just means that players that don't want to deal with whatever burn out rules the Errata team adopts have a lower ceiling.  Again, good or bad, 100% subjective. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-07-19/1456:26>
And what has this to do with Burnout Adepts being able to cheese a ridiculous amount of PP (easily more than a "pure" adept for the same Karma) out of the system because someone very likely forgot to mention in the RAW that you also lose PP when your lower your magic Attribute? Do you think this obvious loophole is justified because the new priorities is giving adepts less Magic for their investment?


I believe that a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut.  The particular combination of Errors that resulted in the weirdness around PP isn't some game breaking flaw.  Play around with characters and the new Priority table.  5th Edition Priority is a kind and forgiving character generation method compared to 6th. 

Physical Adepts are the long game.  Slow start, big finish.  They can increase powers three ways, increase magic, Initiate, and Foci.  2 of those 3 cost the same Burn out or not.  The Burn-out likely had to spend some Adjustment points or Karma during chargen to stay at Magic 1.  And with the lower Initiation costs in 6th the burn-out Karma advantage is only a few points over the first 50 karma and is essentially even after that.

Attributes A, Skills B, Metatype C, Magic D, Resources E is a valid character.  It's a Natural Adept with the same power point growth curve as a burn-out, but with a broader starting point because of the lower Resources priority but more skills and better off stats/edge. 

The reason to not change the RAW is that people bought the book and made characters.  And when you issue Errata that impacts char gen you break peoples characters.  That's bad. 

Letting Adepts gain PP at char gen with Magic Increases means the optimal Phys Ad is Magic D.  Weather that's good or bad is 100% Subjective. 

Adding in Burn-out Rules and Power Point loss doesn't stop players like me from creating Burn-out Adepts that are flat better than Natural Adepts.  It just means that players that don't want to deal with whatever burn out rules the Errata team adopts have a lower ceiling.  Again, good or bad, 100% subjective.


Ok, let me get this straight:

If the RAW (or at least not the the part where Adepts now don´t lose P.P. for losing Magic due to Essence loss) does not get an Errata, then burnout adepts can get more P.P. for less Karma than a "pure Adept" by abusing an (in part, already existing) faulty interaction between Essence Loss and progressive Attribute enhancement costs.

This would make burnout Adepts - a character concept that is already considered broken by many SR players because of their high min-max potential - absolutely, ridiculously broken. Again, we´re talking about cheese like 5 worth points worth of Augments and 7 P.P. for 50 Karma and whatever the Augmentations cost are (bear in mind that it´s actually advisable to deliberately seek out cheap and invasive stuff to burn out faster if you want to exploit this properly).

And all if this is likely not originally meant to work this way and just yet another good ol´ rules writing/editing fuckup.

BUT all of this is not a good enough reason to issue an Errata ASAP, because:

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also don´t get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-07-19/1520:36>

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also don´t get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-07-19/1557:30>

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also don´t get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

2 skill points worth of Karma?  ???

We are talking about an Adept that starts with Magic 2 and is able to reach an amount of 7(!) Power Points from there (whithout Initiation, Foci or anything like that) for as low as 50 Karma, PLUS 5 Essence worth of augmentations on top. The trick goes like this:
1. Start at 2 Magic (and 2 P.P.)
2. Get 1 Essence worth of Augmentations. You are now at 1 Magic, but stay at 2 P.P.
3. Raise Magic with 10 Karma. You go back to 2 Magic but get one P.P. for a total of 3 P.P.
4. Repeat until your Karma/Essence/Money runs out.
(5. Offer your GM the soul of your firstborn so that (s)he actually accepts this as RAI)

Forget the balancing of priorities for a second and look at this. This is what I (and Xenon et al.) are talking about. The burnout-buyback trick was already in 5th Edition, but now, you´d also get additional P.P. out of it. Are we really on the same page here? Because you keep talking about characters that are "made in good faith", while this trick is more of a character advancement issue. 

If NO:

Phew. I was really getting worried here  ::)

If YES (O boi...):

Apart from the fact that GenCon was only 4 days ago and only a very fraction of the players already even had the sessions needed to earn the Karma and Money (it´s not much, but the investment is there) to get this cheesewheel spinning: Do you really, positively think that someone would try to pull this off in good faith? 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-07-19/1632:49>
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: sn0mm1s on <08-07-19/1705:28>

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also don´t get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

2 skill points worth of Karma?  ???

We are talking about an Adept that starts with Magic 2 and is able to reach an amount of 7(!) Power Points from there (whithout Initiation, Foci or anything like that) for as low as 50 Karma, PLUS 5 Essence worth of augmentations on top. The trick goes like this:
1. Start at 2 Magic (and 2 P.P.)
2. Get 1 Essence worth of Augmentations. You are now at 1 Magic, but stay at 2 P.P.
3. Raise Magic with 10 Karma. You go back to 2 Magic but get one P.P. for a total of 3 P.P.
4. Repeat until your Karma/Essence/Money runs out.
(5. Offer your GM the soul of your firstborn so that (s)he actually accepts this as RAI)

Forget the balancing of priorities for a second and look at this. This is what I (and Xenon et al.) are talking about. The burnout-buyback trick was already in 5th Edition, but now, you´d also get additional P.P. out of it. Are we really on the same page here? Because you keep talking about characters that are "made in good faith", while this trick is more of a character advancement issue. 

If NO:

Phew. I was really getting worried here  ::)

If YES (O boi...):

Apart from the fact that GenCon was only 4 days ago and only a very fraction of the players already even had the sessions needed to earn the Karma and Money (it´s not much, but the investment is there) to get this cheesewheel spinning: Do you really, positively think that someone would try to pull this off in good faith?

I would try to pull it off if RAI also mean that raising Magic in chargen doesn't give an Adept PP. I was giving this edition the benefit of the doubt in regard to Edge and whatnot - but this chargen stuff sounds broken and ill thought out.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Typhus on <08-07-19/1727:19>
Quote
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

I agree.  It's possibly one of the worst iterations of it I've seen.  First time it can result in unplayable character builds.  The adjustment points idea was perhaps worth exploring, but doesn't land well at all.  It's more complicated than before to no good result.  I kinda wish my Atts E thread was still around.  Having now seen the character creation process and details, I totally reject several of the arguments made in favor of it being viable.  I've found numerous archetypes that would be unplayable if they were to use it.  First time there's ever been that type of option on the chart. None of the other E choices create that result either.  It's just the Atts column.  D is no winner either, but I could probably make it work with Karma. Maybe.  It wouldn't seem like a very rewarding character I expect.  The Power Point discussion has been most illuminating as it fundamentally changes building Adepts from any prior edition, and to no good end there either. 

New players would probably have the hardest time trying to build with it.  I foresee a lot of false starts due to the separate attribute pool resources.

And no, I don't mean to start a new discussion about Atts E.  I'm not going to be playing 6E, so I don't have anything to resolve there.  I just wanted to give some feedback about the priority system and chargen in general.  Count me in with the "boo" crowd.  I'm done now.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Finstersang on <08-07-19/1752:49>

1. Some of the people that have bought one of the limited amount of printed Core Books at the GenCon 4 days (!) ago might have already realized this giant cheesehole, then somehow convinced their GMs that this is RAI and created a brutally broken uber-Adept by abusing it. And these people would be sooooo sad.

2. "LOL, I could still make a strong burnout-Adept even without that loophole". (Yeah, I also don´t get why there is a ban on live handgrenades in my country. I can easily kill someone with a knife as well.)

Correct.  Although I would phrase it as the overall Karma gain from exploiting this loophole is about 2 skill points so probably isn't worth breaking peoples characters that they made in good faith.  But we can use your words if you'd like.

2 skill points worth of Karma?  ???

We are talking about an Adept that starts with Magic 2 and is able to reach an amount of 7(!) Power Points from there (whithout Initiation, Foci or anything like that) for as low as 50 Karma, PLUS 5 Essence worth of augmentations on top. The trick goes like this:
1. Start at 2 Magic (and 2 P.P.)
2. Get 1 Essence worth of Augmentations. You are now at 1 Magic, but stay at 2 P.P.
3. Raise Magic with 10 Karma. You go back to 2 Magic but get one P.P. for a total of 3 P.P.
4. Repeat until your Karma/Essence/Money runs out.
(5. Offer your GM the soul of your firstborn so that (s)he actually accepts this as RAI)

Forget the balancing of priorities for a second and look at this. This is what I (and Xenon et al.) are talking about. The burnout-buyback trick was already in 5th Edition, but now, you´d also get additional P.P. out of it. Are we really on the same page here? Because you keep talking about characters that are "made in good faith", while this trick is more of a character advancement issue. 

If NO:

Phew. I was really getting worried here  ::)

If YES (O boi...):

Apart from the fact that GenCon was only 4 days ago and only a very fraction of the players already even had the sessions needed to earn the Karma and Money (it´s not much, but the investment is there) to get this cheesewheel spinning: Do you really, positively think that someone would try to pull this off in good faith?

I would try to pull it off if RAI also mean that raising Magic in chargen doesn't give an Adept PP. I was giving this edition the benefit of the doubt in regard to Edge and whatnot - but this chargen stuff sounds broken and ill thought out.

That may or may not be the case.

But again, my main point is not about char generation, it´s about this even more insane trick during character progression that adepts could theoretically pull off by RAW because someone forgot (?) to mention that they also lose Power Points when losing Magic because of Augmentations. Compared to this, the chargen thing is harmless. This trick basically turns burning out - which has always been a tradeoff between magical powers and augmentation - in a discount system for even more Adept Powers.

At least for Cheesy McRuleslawyer of the noble house of Whydidweinvitethisguyagain.

If he has blackmail on the GM.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: curiousNormie on <08-07-19/1815:34>
Imma just say this whole thread is proof nobody actually knows what CGL's RAI is for anything in 6e
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-07-19/1818:44>
'For anything' is rather an exaggeration, but there's unclarities with some of the new nerfs that we can't settle without going through writers and the full process. We're all working hard on that though.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-07-19/1952:49>
I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you only get between 1 and 4 power points depending on if you prioritize Magic or Resonance between D and A. That you can at most walk out of chargen with 4 power points.

That the intent is that during chargen the number of free power points for Physcial Adepts or free spells for Full Magicians or Aspected Magicians or a combination of the two for Mystic Adepts are linked to your unadjustment magic rating - the Magic in the Priority table, not as altered with any points, Karma, or any other adjustments (and that the only thing that 'any other adjustments' in this case can be, as far as I can tell, is when augmentations cause loss of essence which in turn might adjust your magic rating).

I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you cannot go Magic or Resonance D for 1 Magic and Metatype C for 9 adjustment points and then use 5 of them to get Magic 6 and that this automatically turn into a total of 6 power points (this would basically be SR5 rules, but where metatype now suddenly give you twice as many special attribute points).


Beyond that I think that "SR6 p. 156 Power Points" is in need of errata.

Book also need to clarify what you can and cannot do if your current magic rating ever reach 0.

And while at it, the book should probably also mention that everyone start out with 6 essence.... and maybe also mention if anything bad will happen if Essence ever reach zero (the only related i can find is: Essence Drain power on SR6 p. 224 mention that if the target character's Essence is drained to 0, the character dies).
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hobbes on <08-07-19/2222:37>

Beyond that I think that "SR6 p. 156 Power Points" is in need of errata.

Book also need to clarify what you can and cannot do if your current magic rating ever reach 0.


+1 to the whole post, but this right here is the key bits.  If the RAI is total Burnout is just a story thing, go ahead and bounce off 0 Magic a few times.  Or is it still like previous editions where you hit 0 and don't bounce back.  Seriously I couldn't find a reference, would love one.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: sn0mm1s on <08-07-19/2245:12>
I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you only get between 1 and 4 power points depending on if you prioritize Magic or Resonance between D and A. That you can at most walk out of chargen with 4 power points.

That the intent is that during chargen the number of free power points for Physcial Adepts or free spells for Full Magicians or Aspected Magicians or a combination of the two for Mystic Adepts are linked to your unadjustment magic rating - the Magic in the Priority table, not as altered with any points, Karma, or any other adjustments (and that the only thing that 'any other adjustments' in this case can be, as far as I can tell, is when augmentations cause loss of essence which in turn might adjust your magic rating).

I think the intent is pretty clear that during chargen you cannot go Magic or Resonance D for 1 Magic and Metatype C for 9 adjustment points and then use 5 of them to get Magic 6 and that this automatically turn into a total of 6 power points (this would basically be SR5 rules, but where metatype now suddenly give you twice as many special attribute points).


Beyond that I think that "SR6 p. 156 Power Points" is in need of errata.

Book also need to clarify what you can and cannot do if your current magic rating ever reach 0.

And while at it, the book should probably also mention that everyone start out with 6 essence.... and maybe also mention if anything bad will happen if Essence ever reach zero (the only related i can find is: Essence Drain power on SR6 p. 224 mention that if the target character's Essence is drained to 0, the character dies).

I don't get it... are PP way better than previous editions in regards cost for adept powers? Spending Priority A on 4!?!? PP for an adept seems like an extraordinarily stupid thing to do. Are the costs the same for a mystic adept? Why would anyone ever choose an adept over a mystic adept when the cost, from what I can tell, is exactly the same for the same # of PP?
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Typhus on <08-07-19/2348:09>
Some PP costs are way down, like Increased Reflexes.  Getting 5d6 is relatively cheap.

Edit: Which now I think more about it, might explain the reason for the limit of 4 PP to start.  Not realizing the 4 point cap, I made a 6 point adept.  I thought he felt a little too buff to start. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-08-19/0718:17>
Why would anyone ever choose an adept over a mystic adept when the cost, from what I can tell, is exactly the same for the same # of PP?
Out of chargen a physical adept will potentially have the exact same amount of power points as a mystic adept that focus 100% on the adept side rather than the mystic side.

The only advantage a physical adept have over a mystic adept that is 100% focusing on the adept side rather than the mystic side is that post chargen a physical adept get a free power point each time they increase their magic (as well as when they pick power point during initiation) while mystic adept don't (and can only ever gain power points via initiation).

As written this also mean that a physical adept is also much better suited to get augmentations than a mystic adept.

So the choice between a physical adept and a mystic adept basically boils down to be between "easier to get extra power points + easier to get augmentations" and "access to spells/summons". It seems pretty balanced to me.



Out of chargen a full magician will potentially have the exact same amount of spells and rituals as a mystic adept that focus 100% on the mystic side rather than the adept side. The only difference is that a full magician get astral perception for free (something a mystic adept can get by spending 1 power point, which during chargen is the equivalent of 2 spells or rituals) and also have the ability to use astral projection (something that a mystic adept can never get).

Post chargen the full magician does not have any advantages over the mystic adept except that a full magician still get astral perception for free (something a mystic adept can get by spending an initiation, which post chargen is worth one metamagic) and also have the ability to use astral projection (something that a mystic adept can never get).

So the choice between a full magician and a mystic adept basically boils down to be between "free astral perception and access to astral projection" and "access to power points". Depending on how creative you are allowed to be with astral projection this might or might not be balanced.



Out of chargen an aspected magician that only focus on sorcery will have 2 additional spells or rituals and +1 magic rating compared to a full magician that only focus on sorcery. If both of them aim for magic 6 the +1 magic point is basically worth the same as +1 adjustment point.

Post chargen an aspected sorcerer don't have any advantages over a full magician that only focus on sorcery except the fixed two free spells and rituals and original +1 magic rating/adjustment point. This is worth perhaps 20-55 karma depending on your metatype and where you placed the extra adjustment point. While the full magician always have the option to give up sorcery karma for summoning and enchanting.

So the choose between an aspected sorcerer and a full magician basically boils down to "20-55 karma advantage out of chargen" and "access to conjuring and enchanting". Short term I could see some use for an aspected sorcerer, but it will depend heavy on just how useful spirits are in this edition.



Out of chargen an aspected conjurer or enchanter only get +1 magic rating/adjustment point (which is worth 10-45 karma depending on your metatype and where you place the point, no matter what Magic or Resonance priority you pick - you should probably never pick more than D in this case) while a full magician that only focus on conjuring or enchanting still get 2 spells or rituals per Magic or Resonance priority (which is worth 10 karma per priority, if the magician ever decide to invest into Sorcery).

Since aspected conjurer or enchanter only gain +1 adjustment point per rank of Magic or Resonance priority (which is less than the +3 to +5 adjustment points per rank of Metatype priority) aspected magicians doesn't really benefit at all and a Full magician would probably almost always the better option here...
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Lormyr on <08-08-19/1147:04>
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

It really is a cluster fuck in terms of being balanced against itself.

I am not opposed to the thought of all your magic stuff coming only from your priority selection, but if they wanted to do that then A should have gotten you the full 6. B 4, C 3, D 2, something along those lines.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-08-19/1159:45>
The more I hear, the worse this priority system gets.

It really is a cluster fuck in terms of being balanced against itself.

I am not opposed to the thought of all your magic stuff coming only from your priority selection, but if they wanted to do that then A should have gotten you the full 6. B 4, C 3, D 2, something along those lines.

For adepts at least. The main reason I go for 6 magic as a mage is the dice pool. For adepts it’s the power points. I can easily swing a mage with 2 spells at the start. Because hobbies I focus more on summoning. 3 runs in and I have enough spells for a bit so I can easily initiate after that then pick a few more spells etc. adepts there is no reason to improve your magic rating if you don’t get power points. It’s a waste of ink to even say that you can from your metahuman special points.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Bookwyrme on <08-08-19/2153:10>
The book has an archetype adept and if you look at him, he has a Magic of 6 and 5.5 power points spent.
 Two of us checked the math and came up with him being pretty starting character legal.  Magic, attributes, and meta type priorities work out especially. The only listed errata just switches stats around.
So, either he was made before changes, is broken completely, or you can in fact boost the magic stat at generation and get power points from it. Optimistically, they didn’t mess up like previous versions and you can.
Hope that helps.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: skalchemist on <08-08-19/2227:58>
I was about to post the same thing as Bookwyrmme just above.  The Adept example was clearly created using a different rule than is written in the book on page 66 (although why they didn't spend an extra 0.5 point is beyond me).   
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-08-19/2251:34>
Such things happen. That's why there's an errata process.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-09-19/0455:18>
I was about to post the same thing as Bookwyrmme just above.  The Adept example was clearly created using a different rule than is written in the book on page 66 (although why they didn't spend an extra 0.5 point is beyond me).
Because you're explicitly allowed to save up Power Points until a later time, when you know better what you want with it.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: skalchemist on <08-09-19/1113:09>
I was about to post the same thing as Bookwyrmme just above.  The Adept example was clearly created using a different rule than is written in the book on page 66 (although why they didn't spend an extra 0.5 point is beyond me).
Because you're explicitly allowed to save up Power Points until a later time, when you know better what you want with it.
I don't think that can be the answer.  pg 66 clearly says at character creation you only get power points from your Priority magic score, which would mean a starting Adept character could never have more than four power points.  The "Saving up points" rule in the Adept powers section doesn't resolve that problem.  The only explanation that makes sense is that the example adept character breaks the rule on page 66, so either the rule or the character needs errata. 

I think all the magic characters have the same issue when you add up the number of spells/forms they have, but its harder to tell because the example characters don't state the priority picks they were based on and Karma can be spent on spells/forms.  You would have to reconstruct the character creation process from scratch to confirm.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-09-19/1122:09>
You were wondering why they didn't spend the extra half point, I answered that question. Not the rest.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: skalchemist on <08-09-19/1125:27>
You were wondering why they didn't spend the extra half point, I answered that question. Not the rest.
Ah, I get it, sorry. 
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-09-19/1130:56>
No worries. Mind you, I got, ahem, Opinions on Adepts. But I'm waiting with discussing any uncertain points publicly until the book is publicly available for everyone, after that there will be a reckoning.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Lormyr on <08-09-19/1246:18>
I think all the magic characters have the same issue when you add up the number of spells/forms they have

That is correct, literally none of them are accurate. The shaman has 13 spells for example.

My money is on their intention being that the only magic resources any gets at chargen are strictly determined by their priority selection, and they were just extremely sloppy with everything that is contradictory to that. Time will tell.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-09-19/1304:45>
I don't have the insight to say with certainty, but yes given the conflicts with chargen rules (and not just spells and power points) I'm 99% sure certain rules changed subsequent to the pregens being written and the pregens were never updated to reflect those rules changes.

Again, that's what the errata process is for :)
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-09-19/1316:49>
There's a reason we analysed all the problems with the SR5 Samples and made a new set of Missions-legal ones that also fixed their rule violations. -,-
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Banshee on <08-09-19/1326:48>
I don't have the insight to say with certainty, but yes given the conflicts with chargen rules (and not just spells and power points) I'm 99% sure certain rules changed subsequent to the pregens being written and the pregens were never updated to reflect those rules changes.

Again, that's what the errata process is for :)

yep, this right here ... I can confirm that all the pregens were written separately by others using a version of the rules that did not make it the final CRB
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Moonshine Fox on <08-09-19/1352:35>
 Honestly, at this point I think it’s almost tradition that the pre-gen characters not be correct. I can’t remember an edition where they were XD
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: sn0mm1s on <08-09-19/1636:55>
I don't have the insight to say with certainty, but yes given the conflicts with chargen rules (and not just spells and power points) I'm 99% sure certain rules changed subsequent to the pregens being written and the pregens were never updated to reflect those rules changes.

Again, that's what the errata process is for :)

Hmm... I would say that is what the *editing* process is for. I mean, I don't have the CRB but FFS how can there be so many issues with it within hours after the community gets it? It sounds like a cut and paste job done poorly with all the stuff seemingly implied but not mentioned. I mean, the one thing that *should* be locked down period is chargen and character progression. There should never be any confusion about chargen or progression. Literally, to test the rules *everyone* needs to make a character and not assume the rules are the same as previous versions.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Banshee on <08-09-19/1649:30>
actually no, in game design character generation is usually the last component to get "built" because first you need to figure out all the pieces and parts and how they interact with each other ... during playtesting characters are just assigned stats and not built. Then when it is all said and done then you make the character generation is built to suit
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Lormyr on <08-09-19/1705:56>
Hmm... I would say that is what the *editing* process is for.

I very much agree. Now I would never hold any game publisher to a perfect standard. Some errors are going to be missed, some mechanics that seemed ok will turn out to not be, shit happens, ect. Issue a few pages of errata down the line, no big.

That said, Catalyst has historically been pretty bad at both editing and getting errata out for Shadowrun 5th (I can't speak to other game lines/editions). This time they had the errata team on go before the book was even released. Now on the one hand, that is good. Shows progress. On the other hand though, I am kind of stunned that the book needed 10 pages of errata, upon release, and that is only the beginning. Also that they either missed all of this errata, or knew it needed it but didnt bother before sending off to print. Kind of blows my mind honestly.

For PDF users, it's not so big a deal if they insert the errata. For folks who like paper though I am sure it is profoundly annoying.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-09-19/1736:33>
actually no, in game design character generation is usually the last component to get "built" because first you need to figure out all the pieces and parts and how they interact with each other ... during playtesting characters are just assigned stats and not built. Then when it is all said and done then you make the character generation is built to suit

Whether it’s last or first it’s one section you kind of need to nail. If people’s start off wrong it can mess up the rest of their game.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: sn0mm1s on <08-09-19/1857:43>
actually no, in game design character generation is usually the last component to get "built" because first you need to figure out all the pieces and parts and how they interact with each other ... during playtesting characters are just assigned stats and not built. Then when it is all said and done then you make the character generation is built to suit

This actually explains a lot - at least if this is how SR is handled. Playtesting mechanics can be done with prebuilts but full on testing of the game should start from the beginning - which is chargen.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-09-19/1906:57>
I can confirm that all the pregens were written separately by others using a version of the rules that did not make it the final CRB
Would it be fair to also take that as confirmation that the chargen rules on p. 65-66 are correct:

"the rating used for that calculation is the Magic in the Priority table, not as altered with any points, Karma, or any other adjustments"
"as before, the rating used is the Magic in the Priority table, not as altered with any points, Karma, or adjustments"
"as listed in the Priority table, before any adjustments"
"Again, this uses the Magic value in the Priority table, not as adjusted with Karma or adjustment point"
"using the Resonance figure from the Priority table, not the number as adjusted"




And that the rule on p. 156:

"Whenever adept characters gain a point of Magic, they also gain a power point. This means that an adept character who starts with a Magic rating of 4 also starts with 4 power points"

...is talking about an adept that specifically had an unadjusted magic rating of 4 from Magic or Resonance priority A
(rather than an adept that perhaps did not pick Magic or Resonance A and instead used a mix of adjustment points, karma or augmentations to start the game with an adjusted magic rating of 4).


Depending on your reading the text on p. 156 is maybe not technically wrong, but the "This means..."-sentence sure does imply that whatever your adjusted magic rating is when you leave chargen is also the number of point points you will have when you start (no matter what the unadjusted magic rating from Magic or Resonance was).
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-09-19/1956:38>
I think what it means is wait for runners companion where they release a working character generator system.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: topcat on <08-09-19/2234:42>
Given page 66, is there any non-fluff reason to make a PhysAd when you could make a MysAd instead?
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-09-19/2247:30>
Given page 66, is there any non-fluff reason to make a PhysAd when you could make a MysAd instead?

I think power point growth is different. Like mystic adepts have to spend karma to gain pps after a magic increase or something. My memory for peoples posts sucks and who knows maybe that was paragraph 3 that got deleted under mystic adepts or something.

Is astral projection worth loss of access to physical adept moves. Because mage is looking a lot like mistake adepts just with astral projection and no physical adept moves.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-09-19/2249:58>
Given page 66, is there any non-fluff reason to make a PhysAd when you could make a MysAd instead?

Pages 156 & 158.

MysAds don't get free Power Points and regular adepts do.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: topcat on <08-09-19/2307:53>
So they advance slower, but have a clear edge at chargen.  Thanks for the clarifications!
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: skalchemist on <08-12-19/1138:03>
Assuming...

* the rules on pg 65-66 survive errata intact, and...

* I really want to play a Physical Adept, not a Mystical Adept

is there any reason to spend points (Metatype or Karma) to increase your Magic Rating at character creation?  It seems to me that the exact opposite is true; points spent would mean you are missing out on gaining Power Points later at a cheaper Karma cost.  But maybe there is a use for a higher Magic rating for Physical Adepts I am missing?
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-12-19/1141:45>
Assuming...

* the rules on pg 65-66 survive errata intact, and...

* I really want to play a Physical Adept, not a Mystical Adept

is there any reason to spend points (Metatype or Karma) to increase your Magic Rating at character creation?  It seems to me that the exact opposite is true; points spent would mean you are missing out on gaining Power Points later at a cheaper Karma cost.  But maybe there is a use for a higher Magic rating for Physical Adepts I am missing?

There are a small number of adept powers that use your magic rating as a die pool for a test.

But realistically, no. IF human don’t bother taking race past d because none of that should go to magic. Now if after char gen you can buy a power point for that magic point on the cheap like mistake adepts style at 6 karma then sure.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Xenon on <08-12-19/1320:55>
is there any reason to spend points (Metatype or Karma) to increase your Magic Rating at character creation?
Magic put a limit on how many foci you bond and the maximum Force all your bond foci can have (Force 4 Qi Focus == 1 Power Point and Weapon focus might also be of interest if you are a Physical Adept).

Magic is used when calculating your Attack Rating during Astral Combat.

Magic set the duration of adrenaline boost, the effect of attribute boost and if drain from them cause stun- or physical damage.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: sn0mm1s on <08-12-19/1608:25>
is there any reason to spend points (Metatype or Karma) to increase your Magic Rating at character creation?
Magic put a limit on how many foci you bond and the maximum Force all your bond foci can have (Force 4 Qi Focus == 1 Power Point and Weapon focus might also be of interest if you are a Physical Adept).

Magic is used when calculating your Attack Rating during Astral Combat.

Magic set the duration of adrenaline boost, the effect of attribute boost and if drain from them cause stun- or physical damage.

Out of curiosity, how does Adrenaline Boost work in 6e?
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <08-13-19/2015:47>
This time they had the errata team on go before the book was even released. Now on the one hand, that is good. Shows progress. On the other hand though, I am kind of stunned that the book needed 10 pages of errata, upon release, and that is only the beginning. Also that they either missed all of this errata, or knew it needed it but didnt bother before sending off to print. Kind of blows my mind honestly.

Based on my (admittedly limited) understanding of traditional print producers who are desperately trying to get a handle on this here new fangled digital thing...  They are still stuck in their anachronistic bubble, and continue to work that way.

I would wager that the Errata / HotFix (if different than Errata) team didn't even get their copies until after the source was sent to print.  Quite possibly, not until after Catalyst received a proof.

It is what is expected of Catalyst.  You get to decide if that is a good thing, or a bad thing.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Hardcase on <08-14-19/1551:25>
I'm totally confused as to whether the 4 magic point limit for adepts at character creation is intentional or not, mainly because the archetype adept has 6 magic and has spent 5.5 points on powers. So either the archetype is created wrong or adepts are supposed to get their full points if they up their magic attribute using racial points.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-14-19/2017:31>
My opinion is that I don't believe it was intentional that Adepts don't get Power Points when raising magic in chargen but they do when raising magic post-chargen.  But yes as for now it's unfortunately a bit murky.... although less so for Mystic Adepts (pretty clear they don't!).

That being said, the good news is there's an active errata team and we're still hard at work even after the hotfix ;)
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-15-19/0815:10>
My opinion is that I don't believe it was intentional that Adepts don't get Power Points when raising magic in chargen but they do when raising magic post-chargen.  But yes as for now it's unfortunately a bit murky.... although less so for Mystic Adepts (pretty clear they don't!).

That being said, the good news is there's an active errata team and we're still hard at work even after the hotfix ;)

Good to hear! Will be buying the PDF version of SR6 when it drops. I assume the PDF will be updated in 'batches' once errata/hotfixes calm down and address most issues? Any word on the plans to keep PDFs updated?
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Stainless Steel Devil Rat on <08-15-19/0827:01>
I do believe that's the plan, however I'm not an authority on product releases.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Alrician on <10-21-19/0739:43>
Is there any update if and when this will be clarified? Will the German version of the core rule book be more clear about adepts, pp and such?
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Michael Chandra on <10-21-19/0832:29>
If Pegasus changes anything while it's not confirmed for the english version, it will most likely be basically their own houserules.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Arkas on <10-21-19/0853:44>
Will the German version of the core rule book be more clear about adepts, pp and such?

Yes it will be. However, as Michael already pointed out, it has limits of what it can do, as it does rely on CGL input. Thus, there will not yet be a fix for the terrible power point situation for charGen in there.
Title: Re: [SR6] Power Points, Magic and Physical Adepts
Post by: Alrician on <10-22-19/0951:55>
Will the German version of the core rule book be more clear about adepts, pp and such?

Yes it will be. However, as Michael already pointed out, it has limits of what it can do, as it does rely on CGL input. Thus, there will not yet be a fix for the terrible power point situation for charGen in there.

Thank you both. Since I am a German, such a "house rule" will suffice.