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[5E] Where is love for melee ?

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NovaHot1

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« Reply #30 on: <09-19-15/2334:31> »
I clearly need to look over this mission ...

Worth it. My best advice is to make sure you're smart. Or have a lot of explosive/APDS ammo. Or a real nice GM.
Desire is irrelevant. I am a machine.

Lucean

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« Reply #31 on: <09-21-15/0347:40> »
The 2050 book includes values for Dikote as well as form fitting armor in the style of SR4th Arsenal which should be compatible with any armor. So high STR-characters have some more options.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #32 on: <09-21-15/0532:04> »
Honestly, dikote should NOT be compatable with any standard armor.  Military, maybe.  But it should add a point at most.
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Duellist_D

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« Reply #33 on: <09-21-15/0722:49> »
Honestly, dikote should NOT be compatable with any standard armor.  Military, maybe.

Why not?
Even the inbook example is talking about a Coat and a Jacket. as possible targets for the coating.

In regards to stats:
The German 2050 Sourcebook is written for SR5, in it Dikote gives +1 Armor on clothing and +1 Damage on melee Weapons plus an additonal +1 AP on Blades.
I don't know if this is similiar to the 4e Rulebooks.

Seems okay in regard to balance.
Coating Armor is extremly expensive but the GM might have to take a look at players using stuff like Diko-Coated Balistic Masks and Forearm-Guards to circumvent this.
Coating Weapons with it is a bit better, but i'm not entireley convinced that spending 6000 aditional bucks on a Katana (albeit for a real good bonus) is something that many Runners will do (baring dedicated Melee-Fighters, but a boost for these is okay).

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #34 on: <09-21-15/1030:50> »
Is it an additional 6k per weapon/armor? Cant read German, but might be good info to give my DM. Also, how does it effect availability?
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Medicineman

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« Reply #35 on: <09-21-15/1122:31> »
>> Is it an additional 6k per weapon/armor?

No its the (Usual) 1000 ¥ per 100 cm°2   so its 6000 ¥ for a long Katana
Which is ImO ridiculous because you only need to coat the Edge maybe 1/2 a Centimeter on each side so a 75 CM long katana needs  only 75 Centimeter of surface to be coated
 not 75 centimeter x 5 centimeter (right side) + 75 CM x 5 CM (left side)
but that is another topic (Economy   )
Coating an Arrowhead or Combat knife is more economic
my Gnomish Throwing Adept uses Dikote coated 7 Inch Nails (you need only 1 cm°2 per Nail for the Tip only
which is MOST economic  ;) )

with an economic Dance
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <09-21-15/1125:31> by Medicineman »
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #36 on: <09-21-15/1207:16> »
Ok, cool. Again, how is availability adjusted? Or is it a flat availability rating?
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Medicineman

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« Reply #37 on: <09-21-15/1443:50> »
the Stuff itself has an Availiability of 4 (no R ,no F, nothing ,just 4 )
thats all.
"Dikote
with this chemical process a layer of diamond is applied to a hard surface......"

with a very easy to obtained Dance
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <09-21-15/1447:24> by Medicineman »
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1V7fi5IqYw
---------------------------------------------------
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RYlAPjyNm8

Rift_0f_Bladz

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« Reply #38 on: <09-21-15/1739:50> »
What?? Wow, that is super easy, almost into the no roll needed zone.
Quote- Mirikon on 7/30/2019 at 08:26:51
Agreed. This looks like a 'training wheels' edition, that you can use to introduce someone to the setting, and then shift over to something like 5E or 4E. Like how D&D 5E is best used as training wheels for D&D 3.X.

Turned in Toxshaman for ¥1 million/4 once.

Duellist_D

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« Reply #39 on: <09-21-15/1854:22> »
Yes, its really easy to obtain.
Considering the pricetag for putting this stuff on bigger weapons or even Armor, thats hardly an issue though.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #40 on: <09-22-15/0254:29> »
This is one of those points where if you don't know the background, you can't effectively talk about what it is you're talking about.  Your arguments sound good, I agree, and would be wizzer, except for the fact that y'all haven't a clue how it works.

Dikote, as a process, spreads a layer of crystalline carbon - diamond - across the surface of an object.  That's not part of the surface, that's the entire surface.  Why?  And why doesn't the Wyrm think it appropriate to apply to armor?  Well, let me quote directly from Shadowtech, the 2e sourcebook in which it's introduced:
Quote from: Shadowtech, 2e, p.91
DikoteTM
          DikoteTM is a process that deposits a thin diamond film on any solid surface.  Small volumes of methane gas are mixed with large volumes of hydrogen gas, then subjected to powerful beams of microwave energy.  This creates a plasma, a super-hot gas in which all atoms are ionized.  the plasma is then passed over the cooler solid target, forming a diamond film as the gases condense on the surface.
          The diamond film imparts much more structural strength and resilience to conventional materials ... <game information clipped>.
          Treated products also find use in the construction of high-speed bearings.  Bearings treated with DikoteTM last in high-temperature environments where conventional lubricants break down, permitting the development fo faster, more efficient, more powerful engines and turbines...

>>>>>[ Not everything can be glazed with Dikote.  The item treated must be able to withstand the heat generated by the plasma.  This obviously eliminates cloth and plastic, which, unfortunately, comprise the bulk of casual armor these days.  If you've got some of the heavier stuff or ceramic armor, getting it glazed is a great idea, if you have the money. ]<<<<<
          -- The Smiling Bandit <Strikes again!/Ha-Ha-Ha>

Understand that your softer metallic materials, including bullets, aren't gonna survive this process; they're going to soften, distort, even melt under the heat of the plasma bath, and metagamewise, 'dikoting' your APDS rounds was effectively double-dipping.  As well, it was generally accepted that the glazing process takes place in a closed container, not with something that's functionally a hand-held 'dikoting torch'; this means that your object has to be able to fit within the container, thus limiting the size of the object you can dikote.  This means that no matter what you want to put the coating on, you have to coat the entire surface area of it - and thus pay for the entire surface area, inside and out.

Back when you didn't have a single rating for armor, you could distinguish what was able to be dikoted, armor-wise - anything that used ceramic plates for projectile (or impact) resistance.  You'd dikote the plate, then put it into the armor, thus upgrading your armor by one.  Nowadays it's a bit less specific, and while it's something to be left up to the GM, a good general rule would be 'hard armors only' - and in keeping with the 'this is gonna cost you an arm and a leg', dikoting a ceramic back-and-breast clamshell is going to cost you a whole boatload of cash, because you have to dikote the whole thing.  SR2 estimated a standard human-sized jacket at 1.5m2, a full suit 2.5m2, and a long coat 2.75m2.  At 1000¥ per 0.1m2, you're looking at 15,000¥, 25,000¥ for a full suit, and 27,500¥ for a long coat.  Not sure I agree with their estimates, but they're also talking about just the ceramics ...

Anyhow.  Easy to get.  Wildly expensive for what it does, for anything except very small objects, but even then there's a minimum 1000¥ charge ... unless you're doing multiple objects and adding it together.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

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Duellist_D

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« Reply #41 on: <09-22-15/1024:05> »
This is one of those points where if you don't know the background, you can't effectively talk about what it is you're talking about.  Your arguments sound good, I agree, and would be wizzer, except for the fact that y'all haven't a clue how it works.

Dikote, as a process, spreads a layer of crystalline carbon - diamond - across the surface of an object.  That's not part of the surface, that's the entire surface.  Why?  And why doesn't the Wyrm think it appropriate to apply to armor?  Well, let me quote directly from Shadowtech, the 2e sourcebook in which it's introduced:
Quote from: Shadowtech, 2e, p.91
DikoteTM
          DikoteTM is a process that deposits a thin diamond film on any solid surface.  Small volumes of methane gas are mixed with large volumes of hydrogen gas, then subjected to powerful beams of microwave energy.  This creates a plasma, a super-hot gas in which all atoms are ionized.  the plasma is then passed over the cooler solid target, forming a diamond film as the gases condense on the surface.
          The diamond film imparts much more structural strength and resilience to conventional materials ... <game information clipped>.
          Treated products also find use in the construction of high-speed bearings.  Bearings treated with DikoteTM last in high-temperature environments where conventional lubricants break down, permitting the development fo faster, more efficient, more powerful engines and turbines...

>>>>>[ Not everything can be glazed with Dikote.  The item treated must be able to withstand the heat generated by the plasma.  This obviously eliminates cloth and plastic, which, unfortunately, comprise the bulk of casual armor these days.  If you've got some of the heavier stuff or ceramic armor, getting it glazed is a great idea, if you have the money. ]<<<<<
          -- The Smiling Bandit <Strikes again!/Ha-Ha-Ha>

Understand that your softer metallic materials, including bullets, aren't gonna survive this process; they're going to soften, distort, even melt under the heat of the plasma bath, and metagamewise, 'dikoting' your APDS rounds was effectively double-dipping.  As well, it was generally accepted that the glazing process takes place in a closed container, not with something that's functionally a hand-held 'dikoting torch'; this means that your object has to be able to fit within the container, thus limiting the size of the object you can dikote.  This means that no matter what you want to put the coating on, you have to coat the entire surface area of it - and thus pay for the entire surface area, inside and out.

Back when you didn't have a single rating for armor, you could distinguish what was able to be dikoted, armor-wise - anything that used ceramic plates for projectile (or impact) resistance.  You'd dikote the plate, then put it into the armor, thus upgrading your armor by one.  Nowadays it's a bit less specific, and while it's something to be left up to the GM, a good general rule would be 'hard armors only' - and in keeping with the 'this is gonna cost you an arm and a leg', dikoting a ceramic back-and-breast clamshell is going to cost you a whole boatload of cash, because you have to dikote the whole thing.  SR2 estimated a standard human-sized jacket at 1.5m2, a full suit 2.5m2, and a long coat 2.75m2.  At 1000¥ per 0.1m2, you're looking at 15,000¥, 25,000¥ for a full suit, and 27,500¥ for a long coat.  Not sure I agree with their estimates, but they're also talking about just the ceramics ...

Anyhow.  Easy to get.  Wildly expensive for what it does, for anything except very small objects, but even then there's a minimum 1000¥ charge ... unless you're doing multiple objects and adding it together.




As a preface: Please do us a favor and stop being so smug about knowing and not-knowing.
Most of what you told us in your post, barring the part about the plasma-process (which is only techno-bable anyways), can be found in the rules section in the 2050s Book down to the examples you used for armor, with the exact same types of armors and sizes used (with the difference there beingt that the sizes are written in cm², not m²).

So, yes, as a matter of fact, we (those with acces to the book) know what we are talking about, having the rules pretty much written in front of us.
Sure, its not stated explicitely that you need to coat the entire item, but when the rules give you several examples of cm² and the cost per 100 cm², the INTENT is pretty clear (at least to me).

I see where you are coming from, but i don't recognize this as a problem, except if you are bend on making it one.

For starters, First and 2nd Edition was quite a few years ago, ingame speaking.
Having a noticeable higher resistance to heat for common materials isn't really a far stretch, especially since you can now (2075) imbue even casual dresses with fire resistant coating.
"Plastic" also covers a pretty wide margin of possible materials and considering that you can nowadays (2015) print shooting-safe barrels and chambers for guns with dirt cheap consumer-grade Printers, i doubt that technological advancement (even speaking strictly INGAME from the times of 2nd to 5th) would make this a real problem.

Your "hard armor only" houserule is a ruling that has no base, even with the stuff you posted.
There is nothing indicating in the text that it could only be applied  to hard materials and seeing as both the rules text in Shadowtech and SR 2050 mention Dikote-Treated Jackets, Suits and long coats (not "Traumaplates put into your fancy clothing"),  your Houserule objectively goes against RAW.
Same goes with your comment about bullets.
Why do you even mention it, when neither the Shadowtech, nor the 2050s rulebook give this as an option to begin with?
Coating Projectile weapons on the other hand, is explicitely mentioned as being possible, in the Shadowtech book, though that option is missing in the 2050 Book, same with the parrying bonus.

So:
Tl;DR:
You can coat whatever you like in Dikote, but it has to be the full object, not only parts of it (at least thats implied by both the actual rules text and the more extensive old one).
Besides that though, there are no RAW restrictions on what materials this coating can be applied on. Restricting it to "military armor" is an arbitrary Houserule.
IF you want to use the Shadowtalk as an additional source, keep in mind that its the subjective notion of a few runners on the techlevel 25 years in the ingame past.

Sendaz

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« Reply #42 on: <09-22-15/1040:57> »
On a side note, while a handheld dikoting torch may be out, this does give me an idea for a mad scientist type bad guy using what amounts to a Dikoting flamethrower (limited range as the gases condense quickly along with hefty power cables running back to his van so limited mobility while on foot.) where he is exacting revenge for (fill in the blank) reasons, horribly burning his victims and encasing the twisted charred remains in the synthetic diamond coating to immortalize his works. (SR's twisted version of Captain Cold? :P)

It's not a practical or easily portable weapon as it needs a bit of gear and tech, so even if the runners get it at the end it's of limited usefulness plus the shoddy shielding on it isn't the best to keep the microwave energy from bleeding a bit, but could make for a fun one off weapon of extreme mayhem while the runners have to track down and put a stop to this madman.
« Last Edit: <09-22-15/1215:54> by Sendaz »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #43 on: <09-23-15/0015:03> »
Pananagutan & End/Line

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New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
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NovaHot1

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« Reply #44 on: <09-23-15/0045:01> »
Yip Yip Yip

Uh...no. Making armor, such as casual dresses, fire resistant and making them plasma resistant are two different animals entirely.  If you wanna show off how smart you are, at least do a minimal amount of research. Plasma is hotter than fire by literal orders of magnitude. Wyrm is right, those aren't arbitrary house rules he was suggesting. They're common sense.

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