Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: White_Knight on <09-17-12/2343:31>
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So I'm working on a Sioux Bear Shaman (former SDF) who's become a doc wagon paradmedic for a game built around a party of DocWagon personnel, and I'm having a hard time deciding on an Assault Rifle, what are your thoughts on an Assault Rifle for him? All gear has to rated R (or less). Since he's fairly new to the Seattle Sprawl I'd like him to be able to do most of the work himself
I'm a bit torn between:
FN HAR - good price, fluff fits the corporate response team idea, but I'm not a fan of the art for it in SR4A (I can be ridiculously visual that way) and mucking with or wasting the internal laser sight
Mods - Barrel Reduction, Smartgun (top mount), sling, personalized grip, Foregrip
Onotari Punisher (GH2) - I ilke how this looks, and the fluff fits as something a corp might find useful but it doesn't seem like its that far penetrated into the UCAS, and it would require a bit of mod work (Gas Vent 2) that would require higher facilities than he might have access to, also the lack of BF is a bit of a drag.
Mods - As above plus Gas Vent 2, maybe Firing Change (small)
AK-97/147 or Colt M23 - Again, solid appearances and commonality, nice either one is cheap enough that more extensive internal mods could be done.
Any other suggestions? Your thoughts?
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So my absolute favorite assault rifle has always been the Ares Alpha. Integral smartlink, two points of inherent RC that stack with everything, big magazine and no suboptimal mods (laser sight, Gas Vent 2) that would go to waste. However, it's Legality F due to the grenade launcher. Even the Ares Bravo (which has a vibrobayonet instead of a 'nade launcher) and the Ares Sierra (which instead has an underbarrel stun baton) are Forbidden. Yes, even the rifle with a non-lethal secondary option is rated as Forbidden, while most assault rifles are only Restricted. The M22A3 and the FN SCAR-H3 battle rifle, which have grenade launchers, are also only Restricted. What the heck, guys?
So, with the Ares "NATO Phonetic Alphabet" series out, we have to look at the alternatives.
The AK-147 has a big magazine, a point of inherent recoil comp, and is cheap.
The M-23 has a bigger magazine and is almost as cheap. The fact that it doesn't come with any mods or accessories means that you can outfit it as you wish. The lack of any inherent recoil comp means that you'll max out at RC 7, tho.
(On a side note, never mount a Gas Vent 2. Gas Vent 3 only costs a little bit more and is superior.)
I'd recommend the Nitama Optimum II, but it's Forbidden, and once again I can't figure out why. It's got an underbarrel shotgun, not a grenade launcher.
The M22A3 I only recommend if you want to exploit a loophole in the legal system to have a grenade launcher that's Restricted. The less-lethal grenades are also only Restricted, so it could work.
Looking at the Onotari Punisher, I dig it. Don't let the fact that it's big in the Middle East discourage you: American weapons retailers import weapons from all over the world for interested gun enthusiasts. One point of apparently-inherent recoil comp, an imaging scope, and not too expensive. And I agree: it looks cool. Heck, I say go for it.
Whatever you go with, I recommend that you put the following on it as accessories: Gas Vent 3, Shock Pad, Foregrip or Underbarrel Weight, vision magnification for the scope (if you don't already have eyewear/eyeware for that). Combined with the Personalized Grip you're already planning to get as a mod, that will get you RC 6, or RC 7 if it's the Punisher or AK-147. The Heavy Barrel mod will add another point of RC, but it's 3 mod slots, so you may not have room for that with everything else you want. Getting a smartgun system installed is a must, of course, but don't forget to also get a Skinlink mod, as having your gun hacked is quite unpleasant.
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Is your heart set on an Assault Rifle? I was thinking SMGs for medics, less cumbersome to haul around.
I'd vote for the AK-97/147. The Ultimax options are cheap, but low quality stuff which could be a filler weapon till he gets his hands on a better one. The Colt with the Grenade Launcher's decent as well, though you may have to do some fast talking to explain how legal it is...
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Did Heavy Barrel change from the rules presented in the Arsenal PDF (Catalyst imprint)?
The way it reads there it only affects recoil on full bursts, but I see it on a lot of gear where it makes no sense, the Onotari Urban Hunter and the Ultimax 150 particularly (which can only fire short, not full bursts)
As for the legality of the Nitama Optimum, it seems to be an unwritten rule that every AR with an internal Smartlink is flagged for an F legality, not sure if there's an exception hiding somewhere.
The difference for me in Gas Vent 2/3 isn't at this point a cost one, its more about capacity
Mounting the shock pad would be redundant because it doesn't stack with the RC from Sling
Skinlink is definitely happening, just forgot that above.
If I'm going all out on an AK or Colt I might spring for Electronic firing instead of personlized grip, but again capacity might prove limiting
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Is your heart set on an Assault Rifle? I was thinking SMGs for medics, less cumbersome to haul around.
I'd vote for the AK-97/147. The Ultimax options are cheap, but low quality stuff which could be a filler weapon till he gets his hands on a better one. The Colt with the Grenade Launcher's decent as well, though you may have to do some fast talking to explain how legal it is...
I'm not too worried about mounting a GL, so I'd go with the stripped down Colt M23, also I wouldn't be paying for a barrel gas vent 1 that I'd be refitting anyway.
I'm leaning more towards the AR, if you're doing High Threat Reponse for Doc Wagon, I figure you're going to want stopping power, as for having less stuff to haul around, thats part of the reason to take barrel reduction, and probably a powered folding stock
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Did Heavy Barrel change from the rules presented in the Arsenal PDF (Catalyst imprint)?
The way it reads there it only affects recoil on full bursts, but I see it on a lot of gear where it makes no sense, the Onotari Urban Hunter and the Ultimax 150 particularly (which can only fire short, not full bursts)
No, but mods sometimes show up on weapons where they don't actually serve a purpose, like recoil compensation on single-shot weapons. Could just be part of the flavor--the gun has this whether it serves a rules purpose or not--but it also means that the gun already has this mod if you later modify it with Firing Selection Change to add a higher firing rate. So if mod your Ultimax 150 for full auto, it's got the advantages of a heavy barrel.
The difference for me in Gas Vent 2/3 isn't at this point a cost one, its more about capacity
One of the reasons that I said to mount it as an accessory instead of a mod. Then it just takes up the barrel mount instead of mod slots.
As for the legality of the Nitama Optimum, it seems to be an unwritten rule that every AR with an internal Smartlink is flagged for an F legality, not sure if there's an exception hiding somewhere.
That's... odd. Smartlinks aren't Forbidden, so why would a gun be Forbidden just because it has a smartlink? The assault rifles in the core book that are Forbidden are presumably so because they include a grenade launcher, and grenade launchers are entirely illegal for civilian use (to the point that even movie studios have to use replicas). But in Arsenal and War, grenade launchers are legal, but don't you dare have aiming assistance? Weird.
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One of the reasons that I said to mount it as an accessory instead of a mod. Then it just takes up the barrel mount instead of mod slots.
I didn't realize that was an option, I sort of read Arsenal as superseding SR4A that way, but I can see it working as an accessory.
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You have the option to add one as an integral mod or to just attach it as an accessory. The advantage of the mod option is that it leaves the barrel mount free for attaching other things (like a bayonet or suppressor, although if you have both a suppressor and a gas vent on the same weapon, only one can operate at a time). The advantage of the accessory option is that it doesn't take up any slots and is easy to add or remove.
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Is your heart set on an Assault Rifle? I was thinking SMGs for medics, less cumbersome to haul around.
I'd vote for the AK-97/147. The Ultimax options are cheap, but low quality stuff which could be a filler weapon till he gets his hands on a better one. The Colt with the Grenade Launcher's decent as well, though you may have to do some fast talking to explain how legal it is...
I'm not too worried about mounting a GL, so I'd go with the stripped down Colt M23, also I wouldn't be paying for a barrel gas vent 1 that I'd be refitting anyway.
I'm leaning more towards the AR, if you're doing High Threat Reponse for Doc Wagon, I figure you're going to want stopping power, as for having less stuff to haul around, thats part of the reason to take barrel reduction, and probably a powered folding stock
Hmm, I was going to suggest either a Shotgun or a Battle Rifle instead. The BR gives you the range and hitting power, but is supposed to be quite heavy. The shotgun gives you the hitting power, but not the range.
Are DocWagon clients fitted with RFIDs and the like? Something with an advanced safety could be useful. But question: why are you arming yourself? That is, why are you doing the mods? DocWagon would probably have contracts with various arms manufacturers and its employees would be authorized users of F rated weapons.
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Is your heart set on an Assault Rifle? I was thinking SMGs for medics, less cumbersome to haul around.
I'd vote for the AK-97/147. The Ultimax options are cheap, but low quality stuff which could be a filler weapon till he gets his hands on a better one. The Colt with the Grenade Launcher's decent as well, though you may have to do some fast talking to explain how legal it is...
I'm not too worried about mounting a GL, so I'd go with the stripped down Colt M23, also I wouldn't be paying for a barrel gas vent 1 that I'd be refitting anyway.
I'm leaning more towards the AR, if you're doing High Threat Reponse for Doc Wagon, I figure you're going to want stopping power, as for having less stuff to haul around, thats part of the reason to take barrel reduction, and probably a powered folding stock
Hmm, I was going to suggest either a Shotgun or a Battle Rifle instead. The BR gives you the range and hitting power, but is supposed to be quite heavy. The shotgun gives you the hitting power, but not the range.
Are DocWagon clients fitted with RFIDs and the like? Something with an advanced safety could be useful. But question: why are you arming yourself? That is, why are you doing the mods? DocWagon would probably have contracts with various arms manufacturers and its employees would be authorized users of F rated weapons.
I sort of bounced the idea of a shotgun mostly for reasons of range and precision, the battle rifle pretty much what you said, the weight.
I think what you mean when you talk about DocWagon clients and RFIDs is a safe target system, and yeah thats definitely a possibility
As for the R/F thing, thats the GMs call maybe because we're going to be the new guys or something... if F was on the table, I would have grabbed a Shiawase 73 and been done with it.
The doing all/most of the work himself is partly that 'new guy' thing but its probably the point that matters least.
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Hmm, I was going to suggest either a Shotgun or a Battle Rifle instead. The BR gives you the range and hitting power, but is supposed to be quite heavy. The shotgun gives you the hitting power, but not the range.
I think the Assault Rifle is a good choice. From a games rule perspective, the full auto capability gives it more damage potential than a Battle Rifle or Shotgun with burst fire and the ability to perform suppressive fire, and a range of 650 meters is probably as far a shot as you're lifely to get in an urban environment unless you're the designated marksman who stands off and snipes. From an in-universe perspective, a carbine-length assault rifle is well-suited for close quarters combat while retaining enough range for outdoor combat.
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I would have suggested a submachine gun myself, as being either to fire one-handed - a paramedic might need the other hand to carry a medkit, or drag a patient to safety, or put pressure on a wound... I guess it depends on the situation.
For that matter, as far as I know, there are no actual rules about firing any weapon one handed, beyond such things as using a foregrip. There's a rule that says you can fire two SMG (or pistols sized weapons), one in each hand, and the rule puts that as the limit, so I'm taking it to mean ARs can't be fired one-handed.
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I thought about it, and certainly either the Colt Cobra TZ-118 or HK-227X would fit the bill, but the lack of punch bothers me a bit, I'd still consider it though
Carrying a medkit is being handled by an Ares Industrious Jumpsuit
If I need to drag a patient to safety well thats probably a two hand job anyway and dropping a gun into a sling handles that
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I would have suggested a submachine gun myself, as being either to fire one-handed - a paramedic might need the other hand to carry a medkit, or drag a patient to safety, or put pressure on a wound... I guess it depends on the situation.
For that matter, as far as I know, there are no actual rules about firing any weapon one handed, beyond such things as using a foregrip. There's a rule that says you can fire two SMG (or pistols sized weapons), one in each hand, and the rule puts that as the limit, so I'm taking it to mean ARs can't be fired one-handed.
According to the rules, you can fire them one handed, you're just at a -2 penalty due to the size. -1 for Trolls.
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The Onotari Arms Punisher is one of the best R assault rifles, because of the 1 point of magical RC. Lack of BF mode isn't really a big deal because it can hit 8 RC without that much trouble, and you can just use it in FA mode.
Attach accessory Smartlink [top], Gas-Vent 3 [barrel], Stock [-]
Mods Personalized Grip [1], Auto-Adjusting Weight [4]
That gets you enough recoil compensation to fire a short burst and a long burst: 1 magic, 3 gas-vent, 1 stock, 1 personalized grip, 2 auto-adjusting weight.
The other R assault rifle worth considering is the Ultimax 68, because it has a sound suppressor but is still restricted, if you care about that.
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Under the game rules, other than concealability and one-handed use, there isn't really any advantage to an SMG over an AR. The advantages of SMGs in real life--reduced recoil, easier to suppress due to reduce velocity--aren't reflected in the game system.
For that matter, as far as I know, there are no actual rules about firing any weapon one handed, beyond such things as using a foregrip.
It's in Arsenal. One handing a rifle is a -2.
Attach accessory Smartlink [top], Gas-Vent 3 [barrel], Stock [-]
Shock Pad, rather than Stock. You can't attach a stock to an assault rifle, as it already has one. Stocks can only be attached to pistols, machine pistols and SMGs.
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Shock Pad, rather than Stock. You can't attach a stock to an assault rifle, as it already has one. Stocks can only be attached to pistols, machine pistols and SMGs.
The Shock Pad is redundant if there's a sling involved since the two don't stack per Arsenal 148
Mods Personalized Grip [1], Auto-Adjusting Weight [4]
Auto Adjusting weight is definitely a possibility, I hadn't considered it because I was trying to "keep the weight down" and leave some room for mods, but its certainly worth considering
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The Shock Pad is redundant if there's a sling involved since the two don't stack per Arsenal 148
Yeah, but the sling only stacks with a foregrip, not with any other "underbarrel" recoil compensator, like the auto-adjusting weight. Shock Pad stacks with all of them.
Might just be a personal preference for the Shock Pad on my part.
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The Shock Pad is redundant if there's a sling involved since the two don't stack per Arsenal 148
Yeah, but the sling only stacks with a foregrip, not with any other "underbarrel" recoil compensator, like the auto-adjusting weight. Shock Pad stacks with all of them.
Might just be a personal preference for the Shock Pad on my part.
"Recoil compensation from a folding stock, hip pad, rigid stock, shock pad, or sling are not cumulative with each other." Arsenal 148, emphasis mine. Now I do suppose that if I am taking RC from the Auto weight, and not the sling, then the Shock pad comes back into play, which makes for some excellent RC
That gets you enough recoil compensation to fire a short burst and a long burst: 1 magic, 3 gas-vent, 1 stock, 1 personalized grip, 2 auto-adjusting weight.
RC 8 is excellent for this except the Punisher can't fire Short bursts without modification, which admittedly is cheap, but uses up the last slot in the gun which I'd rather have for skinlink
I'd more likely just use a take aim action, to offset the last uncomped point of recoil on a full burst or the sustain spell penalty
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Related Rules Question:
The Auto Adjusting weight RAW seems to have no effect on the recoil generated by Short Bursts (to me "first shot" speaks more to a single shot, rather than a single trigger pull), any thoughts on this?
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The Auto Adjusting weight RAW seems to have no effect on the recoil generated by Short Bursts (to me "first shot" speaks more to a single shot, rather than a single trigger pull), any thoughts on this?
Um. Yes, that is correct. I'm not totally sure why that is, since fluff-wise it's basically replicating a cyberarm gyromount (3 RC to everything), and eats quite a few slots.
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I chalk that up to bad word choice. Besides, the first shot is recoil-less.