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5e dnd vs 6e SR. Seeking simplicity and why edge failed,

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Hobbes

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« Reply #45 on: <06-09-20/1449:20> »
If you're BBQ'ing sacred cows, break "Wheelman" and "Drone Wrangler" into mechanically separate functions.

Vehicle Control Rig for Wheelman characters intending to jump into a single Vehicle (or single, powerful Drone).  RCCs for Drone wranglers.

If your Wheelman is jumped in, limit the Matrix Actions (A.K.A. Commanding Drones) severely, and make Dump Shock from being Jumped to a destroyed vehicle quite harsh.  Like 15 S harsh.

And treat multiple drones like groups of Mooks or Swarms.  No individual action tracking, you're a disembodied swarm and on the PC's turns stuff happens.  More Drones adds more dice or capabilities to the Swarm.  Give the Swarm a condition monitor that degrades as individual drones are incapacitated (One Box per Drone).  Once the condition monitor is filled, Drone Wrangler gets Dump Shock.

Honestly I'd make the RCC some kind of 'ware as well.  Drone Control Module, DCM, or something.  Just ditch the RCC completely. 

penllawen

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« Reply #46 on: <06-09-20/1505:14> »
If you're BBQ'ing sacred cows, break "Wheelman" and "Drone Wrangler" into mechanically separate functions.
I think that's fine but I'm not convinced there's room in the game for two separate archetypes. Riggers are already the most jettison-able of the core four, and this would only make that worse.

Reaver

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« Reply #47 on: <06-09-20/1623:42> »
Wheelman side of things (from my play experience) is almost fine right now. (Rules are a mess, but the concept is fine).
Generally vehicle combat/chases seem to happen with a full party there... either fleeing the scene, or as part of a run...
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Hobbes

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« Reply #48 on: <06-09-20/1709:43> »
If you're BBQ'ing sacred cows, break "Wheelman" and "Drone Wrangler" into mechanically separate functions.
I think that's fine but I'm not convinced there's room in the game for two separate archetypes. Riggers are already the most jettison-able of the core four, and this would only make that worse.

The two functions already are almost completely separate things in 5E.  Wheelman can be done as a Samurai light with a fast car and a VCR.  And any Decker can be a better Drone Rigger than most Riggers.  6E isn't a whole lot different.  Drone users really want a Cyberdeck for Sleaze.  Vehicle Drivers would just as soon ignore the Matrix if they could, so why not be a meat space driver?

I would lean into that.  Make it clear "Fluff-wise" that the two things are separate.  Honestly I'd let the "Wheelman" concept be a cheap enough investment that it's an easy dip for any Mundane.  And if it's a character's main focus, they've got enough left for a very robust secondary set of abilities. 

Might just be me though.

Reaver

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« Reply #49 on: <06-09-20/1738:02> »
If you're BBQ'ing sacred cows, break "Wheelman" and "Drone Wrangler" into mechanically separate functions.
I think that's fine but I'm not convinced there's room in the game for two separate archetypes. Riggers are already the most jettison-able of the core four, and this would only make that worse.

And any Decker can be a better Drone Rigger than most Riggers.  6E isn't a whole lot different. 


I think THAT right there speaks to the biggest issue for Riggers..... If anyone can do it, why have a dedicated archtype for them?

Maybe the solution to make Riggers have their full place again is to NOT let drones be controlled by anything other then a VCR... After all, its right there in the name: Vehicle Control Rig....

If a simple fucking commlink* can control a drone, why the hell do we need a VCR??? Maybe get back to VCR for vehicles (which a drone is!) and decks for matrix....


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Ghost Rigger

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« Reply #50 on: <06-09-20/1918:12> »
[2] My favourite side effect; per RAW, you can't call London from Seattle. There's no mechanic for it. The best commlink in the world can't offset the inevitable noise penalty. My interpretation is that phone calls are magically routed through hosts, which magically never suffer noise penalties. But I do not believe that's stated anywhere. And it opens up "well why don't deckers route their hacks through black market hosts so they can work at a safe distance?" questions.
You absolutely can call Seattle from London if you've got a satellite link, though you'll still need a good model to get through the -5 distance noise penalty and any ambient noise. Though ambient noise can be ridiculous too....
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Marcus

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« Reply #51 on: <06-09-20/2308:45> »
So i'm not interested in breaking Rigger up. But yes ditch RCC, and VCR are need to control drones, while jumped in your immune hijacking via hacking. Also if your drone is taken out while sink the dump shock will be really bad (without doing the health track but unconscious and a litt extra . In-exchange, you can Synch (become Synchronized, replacing VR ragged Doll.) with your drone/car/vehical. You're limited to one at a time, but you get complex action that is combined attack. Which will doubtlessly do a giant pile of damage. Combat drones will have atleast decent armor, will heal, and will have some limited AI.

I think to add some extra to it, unless you have VCR, your going to rely on the car to drive itself or face some meaningful penalty (Self driving cars are good at it, and networked together, without the VCR to interface with the traffic system, driving is hard. I'm not interested in seeing riggers get shown up at driving tests.

VCR will give +1 Reaction a gear bonus to piloting. Rigger will also want Smart weapon system.
Their augments will allow them to get more then one combined attack and other means of augmenting them, and of course drones and vehicles will have augments slots. drones will be expensive but will self repair, so long as you keep their nanites fed with correct level of life style, and can be fixed. 
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penllawen

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« Reply #52 on: <06-10-20/0318:09> »
You absolutely can call Seattle from London if you've got a satellite link, though you'll still need a good model to get through the -5 distance noise penalty and any ambient noise.
OK but... that's still ridiculous. I don't need a personal satellite link to call Seattle today. Why do I need one in 2080?

Reaver

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« Reply #53 on: <06-10-20/0404:15> »
You absolutely can call Seattle from London if you've got a satellite link, though you'll still need a good model to get through the -5 distance noise penalty and any ambient noise.
OK but... that's still ridiculous. I don't need a personal satellite link to call Seattle today. Why do I need one in 2080?

Well... technically, its you'r carrier.... :P

But yes... everything about the Matrix is just a giant pile of FUBAR. It has been since 4e... and while they have been stitching it together... I think maybe its time to just kiss the wireless matrix good-bye..
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penllawen

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« Reply #54 on: <06-10-20/0417:54> »
Well... technically, its you'r carrier....
Satellite links are actually pretty rarely used as they are relatively low bandwidth. Most intercontinental data traffic is carried by undersea fibre. Source: I work for a company that moves a lot of data around the world :)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #55 on: <06-10-20/0955:32> »
You absolutely can call Seattle from London if you've got a satellite link, though you'll still need a good model to get through the -5 distance noise penalty and any ambient noise.
OK but... that's still ridiculous. I don't need a personal satellite link to call Seattle today. Why do I need one in 2080?

Well... technically, its you'r carrier.... :P

But yes... everything about the Matrix is just a giant pile of FUBAR. It has been since 4e... and while they have been stitching it together... I think maybe its time to just kiss the wireless matrix good-bye..
Don't forget the Matrix pretty much has to use satellites and such because you can just forget about pulling your telecom cables through the Sea Serpent's domain, plus with constant hostilities cables at land are also at significant risk. So it's not that weird that you no longer can call across a large distance through a cable.
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SITZKRIEG

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« Reply #56 on: <06-16-20/1106:24> »
This thread and the 6e Today thread are great reads for me as someone considering getting back into SR who also did some preliminary amateur work at "fixing" the system years ago.  Just wanted to say thanks first.

This is because the absolute difference between pools is both smaller at low numbers, and your way less consistent at low numbers. So even if you normalize these numbers by cutting everything in half you get weird unfun results, your 16 dice street sam shooting at a 8 dice corspec (they aren't full defending) goes from an 82% hit rate to a 69% hit rate.

One of the things I tinkered with for a simplified system was halving the number of dice among other things (like adding an advantage system and only using skill groups).  Some of the things both mentioned and unmentioned seem to have been incorporated into 6e but I'm really surprised that the cutting of the dice pool has such a large effect on the chance of success.  I'd expect it to be more swingy as there is a smaller number being rolled but I didn't expect a big change on the overall success like that.  Is there a spreadsheet or program that one can download to check that with different inputs?  I'm not a programmer so am unable to code it myself.

Reaver

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« Reply #57 on: <06-25-20/2005:20> »
After thinking about this for a while now... And I think for me, simplification has been at the root of every disliked change...

Be that the thematic and system changes of UMT,  The current dice meta of Pool VS target VS limit...

Every step that been to simplifiy the game, and has borked a part of it, or created new issues...




As much as people rail against overly complex rules, it seems its these complex rules that adds the depth that many people seem to crave. Just reading a few threads here about 6e and 5e and the issues people seem to have, most of the issues seem to come to a too simplified, or a "dumbed down" rule.

While I don't have any great thought out ideas, nor a fully developed system, I will touch on a few things I think "got broken along the way"  and what might be a possible solution.. (or, just a really bad idea. Who knows. ).


SETTING.

Right now, The setting of shadowrun is in a bit of a an identity crisis. While its definitely Sci-fi, and futuristic ... Is it Dystopian? Is it Transhumanist? Is it something else?
Originally, the game was very much Dystopian. It was all about the little guy against "the man". Corporations ruled the city, and despoiled the planet in search of every great profits, all the while stepping on the everyday citizen...

Now, it would be easy to point the finger at 4e (Fanpro) and say this was it; the moment that the confusion got added! But, that would be ignoring some of the things (admittedly again, as mostly plot points) that got added in with the Otaku. And, it was 4e that saw the first full scale intrusion of Transhumanim into Shadowrun.... And that would be the Technomancer. (and NO. The technomancer has not been around since 1e. Back then the term was used as an adjective for Decker. Not rehashing that argument again - its on the forums.)

Now, in principle, I don't have a problem in with technomancers as a whole. they are an interesting concept - for an other game. For Shadowrun, they add in a thematic and setting Break. Let me explain:
   Originally, as I said above, the setting of Shadowrun was a Dystopian setting, with an oppressive society designed to keep people down and in their place. And, in order to
   rise above "The System", and to survive one had to either be born with an advantage, or sacrifice for that advantage.
   Magic was one way to power, as magic was a wild card that could not be easily countered for. It couldn't be sensed (except for by other awakened), it couldn't be controlled. 
   (its a natural phenomenon), but it was extremely rare. And, it really didn't interact well with technology. (like at all!!) And people feared it, thus over reactions to magical
   displays were common (AKA "Geek the Mage First").
  The other avenue to gain an edge, was to to change the body, through drugs, genes, and cybernetics. But this came with a cost, the more you used or indulged, the more of
  your Soul you lost... Until one day, your Spirit decides it wants to be somewhere better, and you die...
 
  The game system was set up in such a way that if you went awakened, you paid an huge opportunity cost (starting resources), faced dice-pool modifiers for Social
  interactions (As most people hated and feared you), were target #1 for combat action, faced more dicepool interactions for technology (anyone remember the
  DATAJACK?!?! Anyone? yea... more on that later...) or, just couldn't do anything technology wise.

  If you went with Drugs, Genes or Cyberware for your advantage, you faced different problems. If you dipped to far into the drugs, genes or cyber, people didn't like you.
  (you got a TN modifier after [2] or less essence) If you tried to push your body too far, you died. You also didn't interact well with magic. But there was no general social
  problems for having a bit of Cyber. To the police, you where just another nobody.

Technomancers, however, break this game concept. And with them, we have seen some really big issues introduced and a proliferation of magic and tech actually working in harmony (looking at you ANALyze Device [Can you tell how i feel about this spell :P]).... From magic and tech not working at all, to wizards that only work with tech...


NO.
Just NO. Not even going into how, in a setting with Corporations with a graveyard of skeletons in their closets, or Secret Orders that want to remain secret... Technomancers not only break the fundimental "laws" of the setting, they just wouldn't survive in the setting with the acceptance the have.... OR the system would adapt to the point to render their abilites moot....
  And I think the original FanPro writers realized this very problem after they included them into the game... which is why everyone after Fanpro has pretty much been left scratching their heads going "What the fuck do we do with this mess???" Because, really, think about it... Somehow these idiots are receiving, interpreting, and transmitting machine code! And if they are receiving, interpreting and transmitting machine code then NO countermeasure program, firewall, or even method to detect them could ever be used. Why? Because they are interacting with the data before its been turned into a program and executed... They are Neo/the soul the Matrix... Which means they can NOT be kept out of anything!!! And, if they are NOT receiving, interpreting, and transmitting machine code, then a simple change of the algorithm and codex structure would render them useless.   (like speaking Esperonto in Japan...)

They just do not fit within the world that has been created, and have been shoe horned in. At the determent of both the Hacking and rigging rules. (Because Technos have to be fit into both of those rule sets too) And at the determent of the setting.

MAGIC

Speaking a someone who has played a Mage since 1e.. I can tell you now, 4e and 5e where the best time to be a mage! (No comment on 6e, as I have yet to read it) Seriously! The kiddie gloves came off in 4e and 5e and it was now time to lay the magic smackdown on EVERYTHING!!!
   Which is the problem.

So much got "simplified" from magic that you could rename the game Magic run, and you would probably not get any complaints. Magic in 1 to 3e was powerful, true, but it also took a fair bit of juggling and forethought to get it right, or you could end up screwing yourself over.

Originally, when a mage went to learn a spell, he not only choose the spell, he also learned the FORCE of the spell... And to change the force changed the target number... this left mages in a quandary... Do you learn a buff spell at max level and suffer all that drain, or do you learn it at low force and lose out on some effect.
Now, you just learn a spell.. cast it at whatever force you like... and spend a pocket of reagents to buff it....
Mana Spells and tech were a strict "no go".. If the spell was mana based, it did not work on technology. Period. If the spell was physical based, then its effects were reduced depending on the target. Casting a fireball or ball lightning on a drone or vehicle saw the spells effectiveness drop a whole power level. (So a spell that was going to cause a Serious wound, caused a moderate wound... Or.. 6 boxes of damage reduced to 4 Boxes of damage out of 10 total) If you wanted to harm technology, you had to learn a specific spell to do so.. (Wreck), and there was a separate version of the spell for each class of vehicle and object! (so.. Wreck Gun, Wreck Drone, Wreck Vehicle, etc)...

Now... Ball lightning. all day every day. Its the only way.

Spirits and Elements were two separate things, summoned by two separate people and behaved entirely differently. SPIRITS where summoned on the fly by Shamans and were tired to an area not bigger then a few blocks. Meaning you could run away from one if you choose to. ELEMENTALS were summoned by mages in a ritual, cost reagents, but could go anywhere...

Spirits/Elementals and Tech: It was the disconnect between magic and tech that gave a spirit his immunity to normal weapons. Both could be hurt by a bare had and a force full personality..... (Again.. Technos shoot this concept out of the water...)

As part of the trade off for a shamans ability to summon on the fly, they couldn't discreetly cast spells thanks to the Spirit Mask that formed when they cast..


BUT NO... too complex... ditch the subtly the complex rules gave us... Mages, Shamans.. same coin.. don't matter much  ::)

TECHNOLOGY
 Something really silly and simple trick they did back in the early editions was make one piece of cyberware the catch all for all ware... The Datajack.
This simple piece of inexpensive ware ($500. 0.25 essence) was the gateway for just about every other piece of ware out there.. and served as a limit on awakened.

The Datajack, was the commlink of its day... without the datajack, your smartlink sucked, you couldn't 'jack into the matrix or your drone, And good luck making a phone call or surfing the matrix!!! Some simple implant was the interface to Cyber tech and acted as a limit to awakened, because while it was cheap, it cost you a full point of magic for no gain! it only allowed you to access the other cyber, which cost more essence and ware.... and thus Burn out was a real option... and not just a thematic one like it is now...
 
Who gets a datajack now??? what exactly do they do?? (nothing. nothing at all)

So, in the rush to simplify, they broke datajacks, and the built in limitation to awakened and tech...


CHANGES

Things I would do differently? I would bring back the combat, defense and spell pools.... and utilize them in to the dice pools...

For example a combat pool might be (STR + REA + INI)/2.  This pool of dice could be added to as you wished to a attack rolls over the course of a Combat Turn (so multiple initiative passes) until the pool was exhausted.

Defense pool would be similar and used to augment their defense rolls in the same way was the combat pool... But would be smaller to start.. say (Body + Ini + Rea)/3. This would place of emphasis on armor soak and body soak, as opposed to simply dodging... (bullets travel 1000s of feet a sec.. most combat breaks out in under 100ft... yea... Antons of time...)

Spell pool for spell casting as well, same type of mechanic.

All rolls would be a mix of Pool dice (Pools are made from attributes) and Skills... this keeps skills important, while still allowing attributes to have an effect, while limiting "broken Munchkin" builds out of effectiveness (So.. No trolls with max STR and BDY, and 1s everywhere else being effective combat monsters... leave them on the couch with the rest of the human potatoes)



 

I dunno... Maybe its the beers talking..

   




 










« Last Edit: <06-26-20/0105:50> by Reaver »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #58 on: <06-26-20/0124:55> »
I don't want to go back to when I had to memorise my players their characters and run the math for half of them. Customisation should be where the complexity lies, not mountains of math.
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Reaver

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« Reply #59 on: <06-26-20/0400:04> »
I don't want to go back to when I had to memorise my players their characters and run the math for half of them. Customisation should be where the complexity lies, not mountains of math.

On the surface, I would agree....
But.... well, every time a game system (and I am not talking just SR here) has tried to 'simplify' the game system, they also cut out the soul of it. Or  at least part of it.

While I agree Character customization is at the heart of all games (or it should). If there is no mechanic behind the customization, then its just "different colored hair"...

Lets look at the biggest failure in recent memory, DnD4e.

Yes, it has its fans, but it was a total failure. Why do I say that? DnD4e spawned a competator into the market that used a revised system of what they abandoned  And that competator went on to gain considerable market share! THAT is a failure.

Part of that failure (I think) was due to the overly simplified characters....there was almost no real difference between the classes: They all did 'X' dam/level. Had very little difference in how they behaved. And removed a lot of freedom of choice.

Wanted a longbow Archer Warrior? 2 Weapon specialist? Hell, even a distance fighter? Sorry. No. Two handed wespon. Or weapon and shield only.....

And thats only one class for an example!

Dumbing down is not new.... been happening in games computer games for a long while.

They have been getting prettier and prettier... but with less and less choices/options each time..

Loaded up a classic from Bethseda the old Original Arena..... 10 megs in size.... really crappy graphics. Flight, wall climbing  custom weapon crafting  custom spell crafting, custom potion crafting, 33 skills, 8 attritubes, 85 spells, 13 birthsigns....

Load up skyrim... 10GIGS.... none of it. 35 spells total. No attributes, 14 'skill trees'...... characters look like dirty potatoes.
100GIGs of mods later, I get every thing Bethseda used to have out of the box.... All because someone spent hundreds of hours to put it back in... (and bikini chainmail.... modders always add bikini chainmail...)


I would rather have that depht and complexity there, and tone it down as needed  then have to invent it and shoehorn it in. Especially when it was there to begin with...

Look at the iriginsl Fallout game. Did you know you could complete the entire game without killing a single thing???

Can't do that in Fallout 4*

(*you can actually, but requires jigging the system through massive crafting to level up to a rediculous level, hiding behind friendly NPCs while THEY kill everything, often requiring save scumming, etc).
« Last Edit: <06-26-20/0408:30> by Reaver »
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