Shadowrun
Off-topic => Off-off-topic => Topic started by: Chrona on <05-01-11/2310:12>
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Topic.
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This starts heading into politics... Just warning...
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Thats why I put it in Off-off
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Even Off-Off is not a place for politics, which I had been warned about earlier.
That said, it's hard not to want to cheer this possibility. Nothing has been confirmed yet, however... Yet.
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Ah I see, well i'll take it down if told to, or, of course, a mod can.
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Well, despite my warning, all I have to say is that I raise my glass to the brave men and women that have fought so hard and so long for this day.
You got the bastard. And apparently you got him clean. Good job!
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I heard that Osama Bin Laden was a hologram run by the CIA!
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As long as it's just discussing the news, it should be fine. Once you start delineating it around political rhetoric, then we'd probably bring the lock.
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I heard it was less of a 'Shot and Killed' and closer to a 'Nuked from Orbit via Drone', so it has a segue of Shadowrun relevance....
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The official word is that it was a SpecOp Wetwork deal. Clean.
Ice Cold, not Pink Mohawk.
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Coles Notes version of the speech. (http://imgur.com/gallery/IDsF2)
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The official word is that it was a SpecOp Wetwork deal. Clean.
I've just re-read some coverage, and it corroborates your story.
D'oh.
So, here's a question for all:
You have:
A) A wetwork target assumed to be holed up in an unfriendly area
B) 4 helicopters with navy seals (the bang bang kind, not the 'balance ball on my nose' kind)
C) resistance could include any small arms up to and including RPG's
If this was a shadowrun (in a highly aspected background count, so magic is useless :P ), how would you do it?
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Send in Binky.
Or Bear walks through Walls.
Or the Invisible guy.
Or a Face Assassin.
Or Brick.
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The official word is that it was a SpecOp Wetwork deal. Clean.
I've just re-read some coverage, and it corroborates your story.
D'oh.
So, here's a question for all:
You have:
A) A wetwork target assumed to be holed up in an unfriendly area
B) 4 helicopters with navy seals (the bang bang kind, not the 'balance ball on my nose' kind)
C) resistance could include any small arms up to and including RPG's
If this was a shadowrun (in a highly aspected background count, so magic is useless :P ), how would you do it?
You forgot the most important part: Ability to identify the body without a shadow of a doubt by a very opinionated and propaganda-heavy OpForce.
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I'd have Pup the Dog Shaman do Magical Surveillance, find the location and put a fist-sized hole in the wall, Murphy and Money put hunting rifle rounds through said weakness, then Nas would be the getaway driver with Speeder running Matrix Oversight and providing misinformation for the pursuit teams. :P
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It would make for an interesting Shadowrun game, if kinda bland; no twist (yet?).
As for my Shadowrun of the mission? Send in the trolls. Panther-armed, Military Armor-clad cyborg trolls. Subtlety is for when killing someone gets you bad press.
The thing I thought when I first heard the news was "Is he really dead?" Not in the "faked mission" or misidentification way, but in the Room 101, "Data Extraction" way.
Also, the celebrations gave but mixed feelings. I don't really begrudge them, but it seems...barbaric, I guess? Kinda makes me think of those blood feuds that always seem to happen in other countries. I'd thought we were more 'civilized'; he's dead, check him off the balance sheet, get back to work.
I also thought the comparison to Che Guevara was interesting, though he's not as photogenic.
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If this was a shadowrun (in a highly aspected background count, so magic is useless :P ), how would you do it?
Pretty much like it went down, other than a disinformation campaign or some kind of decoy operation.
Find the target, determine resistance, dynamic assault, go in hard, fast, get in and out. Not much else to say. Taken at face value, I wouldn't be suprised if this ends up being taught as a textbook example of a fast assault; up there with the 101st when they assaulted German '88 guns in the beginning of Operation: Overlord.
But me, I would want more information before I opinionate further; and I doubt we will get too much in the way of operational details right away.
What gets me on this is that in the IC section, I've been sort of doing a story similar to this raid. Personally, it's kind of eerie for me, and Im not sure how much farther I want to go with it now.
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Well Ive heard that he was taller...
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Hahaha, ok your sig about PSN is awesome.
And too sadly accurate.
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I'd have Pup the Dog Shaman do Magical Surveillance, find the location and put a fist-sized hole in the wall, Murphy and Money put hunting rifle rounds through said weakness, then Nas would be the getaway driver with Speeder running Matrix Oversight and providing misinformation for the pursuit teams. :P
And without Magical surveillance or a magically assisted fist-sized hole (due to associated and specified background count so high magic is unusable).
You're still blind (no idea where target is) but have your snipers and rigger ready to go.
What happens?
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I'd have Pup the Dog Shaman do Magical Surveillance, find the location and put a fist-sized hole in the wall, Murphy and Money put hunting rifle rounds through said weakness, then Nas would be the getaway driver with Speeder running Matrix Oversight and providing misinformation for the pursuit teams. :P
And without Magical surveillance or a magically assisted fist-sized hole (due to associated and specified background count so high magic is unusable).
You're still blind (no idea where target is) but have your snipers and rigger ready to go.
What happens?
Well, I don't really have a Drone Rigger of any sort... So I figure Money would go to Plan B, which means high explosives and lots of them. :P
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And without Magical surveillance or a magically assisted fist-sized hole (due to associated and specified background count so high magic is unusable).
You're still blind (no idea where target is) but have your snipers and rigger ready to go.
What happens?
Well, I don't really have a Drone Rigger of any sort... So I figure Money would go to Plan B, which means high explosives and lots of them. :P
So, explosives getting primed and ready even though target is only assumed to be inside?
Cold :P
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I for one would like to thank all of our soldiers for their sacrafice and dedication along with SpecForce Operators in this action. From what I have heard it was well planned and thoughtful, right down to the burial at sea and as such would like to commend the President and his Administration for a job well done.
It is strange, I don't feel jubilant over the news of Bin Laden's death only a somber quiet.
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I for one would like to thank all of our soldiers for their sacrafice and dedication along with SpecForce Operators in this action. From what I have heard it was well planned and thoughtful, right down to the burial at sea and as such would like to commend the President and his Administration for a job well done.
It is strange, I don't feel jubilant over the news of Bin Laden's death only a somber quiet.
I feel the same, having spent a fair amount of my 4 years playing hide and seek with his guys, I look at this as a moment that deserves some peace after all the violence that beset it. Semper fi to our Marines and Special Operators.
Now we'll have to see where this all goes...
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For me, while this is great news, it is also kind of scary. I mean, the action
itself is the first time in American history where a sitting President has,
through actions, said "Assassination? It is on the table!" Not even Kennedy,
with all the CIA operations against Cuba, ever stated that assassination was an
option. No matter your politics, no matter your party or country of origin, this
is a BIG game changer. This didn't change the rules, this changed the whole,
bloody game.
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For me, while this is great news, it is also kind of scary. I mean, the action
itself is the first time in American history where a sitting President has,
through actions, said "Assassination? It is on the table!" Not even Kennedy,
with all the CIA operations against Cuba, ever stated that assassination was an
option. No matter your politics, no matter your party or country of origin, this
is a BIG game changer. This didn't change the rules, this changed the whole,
bloody game.
Uh, you are a little naive.
EDIT: Not to sound like a jerk, but assassinating key people has been and always will be a part of warfare.
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I for one would like to thank all of our soldiers for their sacrafice and dedication along with SpecForce Operators in this action. From what I have heard it was well planned and thoughtful, right down to the burial at sea and as such would like to commend the President and his Administration for a job well done.
It is strange, I don't feel jubilant over the news of Bin Laden's death only a somber quiet.
I feel the same, having spent a fair amount of my 4 years playing hide and seek with his guys, I look at this as a moment that deserves some peace after all the violence that beset it. Semper fi to our Marines and Special Operators.
Now we'll have to see where this all goes...
Here here, proud to have spent my military service involved in the intel side of the house, but the guys putting boots on the ground will always have my respect as well.
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I feel the same, having spent a fair amount of my 4 years playing hide and seek with his guys, I look at this as a moment that deserves some peace after all the violence that beset it. Semper fi to our Marines and Special Operators.
Now we'll have to see where this all goes...
I'm the same Teyl - no happy dance when Adid died (though that was a heart attack and not the result of an op) and now I'm just looking for a moment of quiet for my brothers and sisters in The Suck.
Semper Fi and much <3 for the SEALs - "Ready to Lead, Ready to Follow, Never Quit" (coincidentally the only squids worth a damn *grin*)
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First off, what's with your formatting? Are you manually hitting enter at the end of every line rather than letting the system automatically wrap your text?
I mean, the action itself is the first time in American history where a sitting President has, through actions, said "Assassination? It is on the table!"
Technically it was not an assassination. At the time of his death Osama bin Laden was not a politician, nor was he ever one. He was the head of an irregular military organization as well as a soldier in said organization. The mission, while I will agree was a headhunting mission, does not rise to the level of assassination. In addition, it was George W. Bush who did make the comment around November 2001 that the Wild West had wanted posters with the "Dead or Alive" condition. Even if you could argue that the mission was an assassination, Barak Obama was not the first seated President to think along these lines.
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The psychological impact of this isn't going to stop/slow things like it could have if it happened 9-10 years ago. Osama's been in hiding so long he's acting as Mr morale through video while some other extremist leads. It's a moment for US troops to check the box on another thing accomplished, but they aren't leaving. Mr Obama can't claim credit for this farther than saying he hadn't gotten around to undoing what the prior president set in motion.
I'm not in the best of mood this morning, so I should probably cut myself short on what I want to say... I'm happy for my fellow soldiers and the chance they get to rejoice, but it's not over...
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First off, what's with your formatting? Are you manually hitting enter at the end of every line rather than letting the system automatically wrap your text?
I've seen it on other boards. Some PCs/Browsers will put line breaks in on the text windows when they submit.
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The military did an excellent job. When I first heard the news I didn't believe it because of Bin Laden's doubles.
I found the humor in the attached hilarious.
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I openly applaud the efforts of any and all involved in getting this guy.
And out of my morbid sense of humour, I find the following link full of excellent jokes in that regard :)
http://www.news.com.au/technology/funny-or-die-the-best-osama-bin-laden-web-jokes/story-e6frfro0-1226049184047
And this just in...
... Chuck Norris returns from Pakistan.......
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EDIT: Not to sound like a jerk, but assassinating key people has been and always will be a part of warfare.
But sending people out to do just that has always been denied. Previously, we have never officially sent people
out to kill generals or enemy leaders..they were always "Targets of opportunity"
First off, what's with your formatting? Are you manually hitting enter at the end of every line rather than letting the system automatically wrap your text?
I have been chewed out for doing that in the past. Seems some browsers do not put in line breaks, and force
people to have to scroll over, which gets the forumites which use those browsers testy.
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EDIT: Not to sound like a jerk, but assassinating key people has been and always will be a part of warfare.
But sending people out to do just that has always been denied. Previously, we have never officially sent people
out to kill generals or enemy leaders..they were always "Targets of opportunity"
And on that night so was he. :P As have been many many other people that the GP never hear about. Sure they're making a big deal about this, but this is showing to be more of a national morale thing than others. Probably because taking out strategic targets isn't something CentCom likes talking about. Osama has been in America's national crosshairs for a long time, and not talking about getting him would be Stranger than talking about getting him considering the national atmosphere.
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But sending people out to do just that has always been denied. Previously, we have never officially sent people out to kill generals or enemy leaders..they were always "Targets of opportunity"
Tell that to the air crews who droped bombs on the Dora Farms to kick off the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Intel had stated Hussein was at the farm (he wasn't) so a pair of F-117A Nighthawks were dispatched to drop four 2000lb bombs on it. That doesn't sound like a "target of opportunity", that sounds like an attempt to decapitate Iraq.
I have been chewed out for doing that in the past. Seems some browsers do not put in line breaks, and force people to have to scroll over, which gets the forumites which use those browsers testy.
Tell them to upgrade their browsers.
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And this just in...
... Chuck Norris returns from Pakistan.......
Tell him to go to a bar and order a bin Laden: two shots and a splash of water.
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But sending people out to do just that has always been denied. Previously, we have never officially sent people
out to kill generals or enemy leaders..they were always "Targets of opportunity"
OK, let's look at Osama and his official status:
Was he a General? Nope. Not in any organized military in any way, shape, or form recognized by a country. From Private to General. Don't even think he had any "Honorary" ranks.
Leader of a country (Elected, inherited, taken over)? Nope. Just another Joe Schmoe.
Recognized as any kind of official in any way? Nope. He didn't even have Diplomatic Immunity.
So, thusly, he's in the same boat as any other terrorist or other criminal type that kills lots of people. A viable wetwork target.
"Take two bullets and call me in the morning" sounds like just the right kind of prescription.
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But sending people out to do just that has always been denied. Previously, we have never officially sent people
out to kill generals or enemy leaders..they were always "Targets of opportunity"
OK, let's look at Osama and his official status:
Was he a General? Nope. Not in any organized military in any way, shape, or form recognized by a country. From Private to General. Don't even think he had any "Honorary" ranks.
Leader of a country (Elected, inherited, taken over)? Nope. Just another Joe Schmoe.
Recognized as any kind of official in any way? Nope. He didn't even have Diplomatic Immunity.
So, thusly, he's in the same boat as any other terrorist or other criminal type that kills lots of people. A viable wetwork target.
"Take two bullets and call me in the morning" sounds like just the right kind of prescription.
Cheers chummer!
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Posthumously, and unsurprisingly, he's already being given "Martyr" status. >:(
I think I'll wait (Hopefully a long time) and ask $Deity about that status before I go off on a rant. ;)
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Posthumously, and unsurprisingly, he's already being given "Martyr" status.
Can't be a martyr and still be alive. Which is something that's concerned me a bit for a long time. Kill him and he becomes a martyr in a society where that's a big thing. Capture him and stick him in a jail cell? He's marginalized.
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Posthumously, and unsurprisingly, he's already being given "Martyr" status.
Can't be a martyr and still be alive. Which is something that's concerned me a bit for a long time. Kill him and he becomes a martyr in a society where that's a big thing. Capture him and stick him in a jail cell? He's marginalized.
Yeah, but where could you stick him?
You'd be hard pressed to find a place in the world where he wouldn't happen to "Fall down fifteen flights of stairs." of a three floor prison...
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Posthumously, and unsurprisingly, he's already being given "Martyr" status.
Can't be a martyr and still be alive. Which is something that's concerned me a bit for a long time. Kill him and he becomes a martyr in a society where that's a big thing. Capture him and stick him in a jail cell? He's marginalized.
I disagree, capture him and every AQ cell (and every other terrorist group wanting a name) starts eyeballing civilian targets for an attempt to force a hostage swap. Likely without much long term planning, meaning sloppy work and therefore more dangerous to those innocents involved than it would have been already.
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I disagree, capture him and every AQ cell (and every other terrorist group wanting a name) starts eyeballing civilian targets for an attempt to force a hostage swap. Likely without much long term planning, meaning sloppy work and therefore more dangerous to those innocents involved than it would have been already.
Or, worse, one that's well planned. :'(
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I find it funny that the major innovation on this op as opposed to other "Get Bin Laden" ops seems to be "Don't tell the Pakistani's we are coming"
Musharref sweating in interviews is particularly chuckleworthy.
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Yea the Pakistanis definitely are swimming in egg this week.
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That's the weird part to me. Either they were completely cut out of this, or the State Department and White House only told the highest levels of their government and requested that they play dumb afterwards.
If they were asked to play dumb, it turns into a fake foreign relations disaster that builds an illusion of weakness where none exists. That fake schism might be enough to lure out some of the AQ sympathizers within the ISI, the Pakistani government, and the Pakistani military. Asking them to play dumb also allows them to avoid publicly collaborating with the US government in killing bin Ladin, which insulates the Pakistani government from some of the reprisal that they'd be at risk of were they to have been openly involved.
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Or, you know, they didn't actually know until they were watching TV and the news broke with Obama going: "Yeah, we iced Osama in Paki-Land. Pop-Pop, two to the head!", with his hand turned sideways, two fingers out flicking his thumb gangsta style. :P
Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes.
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My personal take on this - The Pakistanis were deliberately kept out of the loop, if not completely then until the point where they couldn't do anything("Hey, it's the US - might want to keep your troops heads down in Attobad, nothing to worry about though just a training exercise". It's pretty much an open secret that the ISI have funneled aid to both AQ and the Taliban, there is no way I see us sharing intel with them. Something to consider - UBL's compound sat in a Antiair umbrella that gave him safety from UAVs (next to their version of West Point), something like that does not occur without someone(s) in the Pakistani government knowing about it.
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There's no (Unofficially) denying the corruption. It's how high the corruption is that is the question.
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Yeah, but where could you stick him?
Gitmo.
I disagree, capture him and every AQ cell (and every other terrorist group wanting a name) starts eyeballing civilian targets for an attempt to force a hostage swap. Likely without much long term planning, meaning sloppy work and therefore more dangerous to those innocents involved than it would have been already.
It's lose-lose, but when was the last time you heard of a request for a hostage trade for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed? He's been in custody since '03, I haven't heard of anybody trying to negotiate for his release. Considering how many of al Queda's large scale attacks he is responsible for it does surprise me.
As for the rest of the replies...too close to politics for my comfort.
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Kinda heading into the politics end of things, guys. Let's not get this locked, ok?
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There's no (Unofficially) denying the corruption. It's how high the corruption is that is the question.
Just watch Musharref on any news program, I think that's a good indication ;D
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Hey, if the Pakistani government was doing it's best to pretend they knew nothing about the operation, out of fear of public backlash, does that make them a good ally and a bad government (for their people)?
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Hey, if the Pakistani government was doing it's best to pretend they knew nothing about the operation, out of fear of public backlash, does that make them a good ally and a bad government (for their people)?
No. Id say that if you have to ask this question, you`ve sleeped while the world has changed...
Future existence of "National /Territorial states" is an empty idea...
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I'm not sure I quite understand.
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The idea of conventional wars is over, has been since Vietnam (Possibly earlier). It's all about changing governments to what is friendly (Or at least supportive) to your own country and allies rather than conquering and ruling over other countries.
Hell, even the British Empire is the British Commonwealth now. :P
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I guess? I was referring to the Pahkistani government aiding the United States, which seems to cheese off their citizens.
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OK... so since we're still discussing the politics of the situation, I think it's time to shut this down. It's an interesting discussion, and I would hope you all will continue it elsewhere, but the rules on real world politics are what they are, and the request to stay away from that end of things just isn't getting us anywhere.