Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: AJCarrington on <12-18-14/1504:11>

Title: Run Faster Out!
Post by: AJCarrington on <12-18-14/1504:11>
Now up for pre-order on BattleShop (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=faster&x=0&y=0) and DTRPG (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/141788/Shadowrun-Run-Faster). Full range of print bundles available, inlcuding LE and Std versions.

Merry Christmas!!  ;D
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-18-14/1507:30>
Well...wondered when they were going to drop that.

Release the hounds, I suppose....
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-18-14/1543:47>
Hobo with a shotgun possibly could be the best negative quality ever!!!!!!!!!!!.


sad point no drake rules :(
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-18-14/1547:52>
I am pleased that one of my cultural references made it to the end. I am, in fact, very proud of the work that Kevin and I put into this.

I just hate waiting for the reviews.  (And yeah, that's a cool quality, Frankie.)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-18-14/1551:13>
I have scanned so little but love how restricted is worked up....I loved making super powerful samurai in fourth, but this allows some flavor with getting  single good piece at creation without having that super power curve....

also like In debt, as it makes a real lasting impression if you fail to make payment for that month :)

Just read making infected.....nailed it!!! will finish whole chpt to make sure I have everything down but I love the way it is written and works well in power levels of game
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <12-18-14/1637:50>
Bought. Reading through the night, just like the good old days!

Sweeeeeet.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Critias on <12-18-14/1747:21>
All I snuck in was a chargen method, but I hope folks'll dig it.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-18-14/1850:57>
A minor note, but if you look closely, you'll find that sound links (25 nuyen, 1 Capacity) are a real thing now.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Starglyte on <12-18-14/1914:04>
I found the story with Netcat and Slamm-O rather funny(especially with the typos in the erotic fanfiction "Netcat held the toaster to her naked bosom, his perky elven brown nipples..") and liked the new character archetype additions.  Sad there no drakes though. Maybe in another book.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-18-14/2003:16>
I love that additional archtypes where put in starting at 160....table of contents does not have them listed but they kind of sneak in there which takes me back to the original sprawl sites/street samauri catolag....really love this book, top notch....

Critias: building several PC with the life modules, has a real feel of B tech for me....something  I also love lol

Thank you to Catyalst and all the free lancers who put there time into this, truly shows your love of the world
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-18-14/2108:03>
Looks good so far. My only complaint is no Life Module Nationality for Aztlan.  :(
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-18-14/2109:12>
Could someone else double check, did shifters lose regeneration?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Snake Eyes on <12-18-14/2113:24>
Always happens when i'm out of money.......oh well, next paycheck :D
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-18-14/2124:48>
And why in the hell can we only get 400,000₯ with the alternative systems but 450,000₯ with the priority systems? Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-18-14/2134:17>
Seems that not every character build is created equal, not sure if I like the inequality of it. The priority seems to be, to get this you have to give up that, Karma build seems to be trying to focus on customization but top end cannot get the same bang for buck....tried to build a troll with karma that had same stats as A attributes, B race, C resources and D skills and ran out of Karm well short of an equal build....now will try to build optimized Troll and see how that goes.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-18-14/2140:46>
Just scanning the doc, it looks like regeneration is just an optional power for infected, not shapeshifters.

Having multiple chargen systems that all add up perfectly in the end is simply impossible.  Certain archetypes are easier/better made using certain systems; it's just the nature of the beast.  I've always allowed players to use whatever system they like--I honestly don't care.  I'd rather have every player create exactly the character s/he wants then have every single character at the table +/- 5% of one another.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-18-14/2150:10>
Yeah I did a document search and no regeneration. That is to big of a game changer in shifters, complelty kills every other edition and even the shifter NPC found in 5E as an opponent...not saying anythibg harsh but I hope this is an over sight and not how it is meant. Kills shifters
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: MijRai on <12-18-14/2154:06>
If it was an oversight, I'd assume that Regeneration to them would be like the Regeneration for Infected; nobody starts with it, but it can be acquired at a later date. 
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Sendaz on <12-18-14/2300:45>
Hope this is a typo, otherwise this is really going to cut into my werebison burger business, pun intended, where all the cuts of meat are always fresh. ;)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: PiXeL01 on <12-18-14/2314:06>
My favorite pages so far are p.253 and onwards. No need to improvise prices anymore!
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: CanRay on <12-18-14/2359:42>
I found the story with Netcat and Slamm-O rather funny(especially with the typos in the erotic fanfiction "Netcat held the toaster to her naked bosom, his perky elven brown nipples..")...
I've been working a long time (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=39324&view=findpost&p=1249743) to make horrible shipping fanfiction in Shadowrun canon.   ;D
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-19-14/1134:14>
I'm not done with the book, but I have to say that I'm seriously impressed thus far.  The character generation alternatives are really original!  And the last section I read was about the Infected, which was a fantastic in-universe piece.  I especially liked Red's section, but I've always had a soft spot for Hannibelle.  Plus, I love her name.

So far, this is one of the best-constructed books I've seen.  I'm using a PDF, so when I refer to construction I'm referring to layout, organization, etc.  The sections flow really nicely, and the references to other books are reasonable and I haven't seen any contradictions yet at all.  Really great job, everyone!
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-19-14/1152:06>
I'm gonna let you in on something: I like Red's section better, too.

Kevin's bit with Red at the beginning was the absolute heart and soul of the piece; if it didn't work, nothing else that followed would work either, IMO. This was a player's companion, so it had to show Infection from a player POV...and I, frankly, couldn't have written that POV half so well. I've got an entirely different perspective on the Infected and Infected PCs.

Then he dropped that into my inbox. "Well," say I to myself, "that part of my life just got easier." He knocked it out of the damn park; I'm not sure it's landed yet.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-19-14/1158:58>
I liked that the Infected in general seem to be both more human and more monstrous at the same time.  They are metahumans, and therefore sapient, but they are dealing with a truly horrific viral infection that overrides their personalities and the things that made them (meta)human to begin with.  It's a nice piece in that it gives the players and the GMs a lot of understanding over the mentality of an Infected character.  Now we need some Dzoo-noo-qua fiction.  :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-19-14/1201:37>
Pretty much since it was legal, I've had a no infected rule at my table.  Now I'm forced to reevaluate that.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-19-14/1201:51>
re: dzoo-noo-qua fiction

I'll see what I can do. :) We've had a goblin show up in Fire & Frost, so it's not out of the question.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-19-14/1203:31>
Pretty much since it was legal, I've had a no infected rule at my table.  Now I'm forced to reevaluate that.
Um...in a good or a bad sense of the word "re-evaluate"?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-19-14/1207:50>
Pretty much since it was legal, I've had a no infected rule at my table.  Now I'm forced to reevaluate that.
Um...in a good or a bad sense of the word "re-evaluate"?

Excellent!  They're appealing to me for the first time ever.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Sendaz on <12-19-14/1210:28>
Just be sure to familiarize yourself with the countermeasures to use against Infected, especially the ones pertaining to Mist Form as that will be something you probably run into a bit, so more secure areas will have wards, wood particles,  UV in the vents and such so the players don't get a free run.  Not saying every guard is going to have wooden bullets, but special response teams may well have a clip or two should the team trip the major alarms.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-19-14/1229:39>
Um...in a good or a bad sense of the word "re-evaluate"?
Excellent!  They're appealing to me for the first time ever.
Oh, cool. We succeeded, then. :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <12-19-14/1338:15>
I really enjoyed the reference to Good Omens at the very beginning. Looking forward to finishing this read over the holidays.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-19-14/1350:31>
In reply to the infected section....it is not simple success, it is amazing. I loved the concept of infected in the world, never thought they really balanced well though with other PC. Now we get not only balance but such depth for both the PC and GM to realky develope this PC story. Truly amazing, thank you to both Freelancers who worked on this.

Another awesome plus is the life Module, really great work. It really gives you a sense of the PC as they are forming and they are strong PC's as well.....with skills I normally would not highlight in my mad dash to make ubber PC! This book is by far the best I have scene from SR sense I have gotten back into it, and I have positive feelings about allot of the stuff written:)

Plus side all the Novels are amazing....way to go SR crew.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Killstring on <12-19-14/1412:01>
Low on cash, Holidays + post-graduation job hunting = strapped.

Bought anyway; I was hoping that Run Faster was either A: out this year, or B: a turning point in editing/layout/cohesiveness quality standards.

The prospect of it being both is something I cannot help but throw my nuyen at.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: MijRai on <12-19-14/1513:10>
Oh boy...  I've been looking over Mutaqua, and I have such plans for my players... 
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-19-14/1522:48>
Oh boy...  I've been looking over Mutaqua, and I have such plans for my players...
You're welcome. :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: winterhawk on <12-19-14/1830:25>
I really enjoyed the reference to Good Omens at the very beginning. Looking forward to finishing this read over the holidays.

Assuming there aren't two of them in there, thanks! I was hoping someone would notice. :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-19-14/2000:33>
A  few of questions for clarification:

1) Using Points Buy CC, do we have to use karma to attain the minimum Attribute ratings? Or are they free, then pay to raise from there?

2) Using the PB and LM systems, is the max CC Nuyen indeed limited to 400K, and does the Rich Positive Quality raise this?

3) Are the amount of Qualities still restricted to +25/-25?

4) Can Cyberware packs be bought Used or Alpha grade?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-19-14/2011:24>
1. Attributes start at the racial minimum, so humans have all 1s except an Edge of 2.

2. I don't have it in front of me, but I'd assume so.
  Now that I've had a chance to look at the text, I'm not sure.  Based on intent, I suspect you'd get an extra 30 karma max on nuyen, but it's something to send down the pipeline.

3. Yes.

4. No.  There's no inherent advantage to buying a PACK--they're intended to make purchasing gear (or assigning gear to NPCs) easier.  Changing grades/ratings/etc. throws off all the numbers.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: MadBear on <12-19-14/2018:35>
Seems that not every character build is created equal, not sure if I like the inequality of it. The priority seems to be, to get this you have to give up that, Karma build seems to be trying to focus on customization but top end cannot get the same bang for buck....tried to build a troll with karma that had same stats as A attributes, B race, C resources and D skills and ran out of Karm well short of an equal build....now will try to build optimized Troll and see how that goes.

I dunno, I just got hold of this today, and put the Karagen system to work on the new Troll that's been giving me fits. (A) Attributes, (B) Troll, (C) Skills, (D) Resources. Seems I did the math wrong on his Attributes, by about, oh six or eight points, spent more like 32 than 24. To make it work I'd have to chip away eight points off my attributes, but with the Karmagen I was able to balance that out by only dropping BOD 10 and STR 9 to BOD 9 and STR 8, which gave me 75 Karma to spread out among his mental attributes. He's still a helluva tank. I guess it depends on what your goal is, and how you want to utilize the system.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Frankie the Fomori on <12-19-14/2117:28>
Yeah I did Body:9 Agility:6(Inproved ATT), reaction: 5, Str:9 (total spent in points 17) Will: 3, INT:4 Logic:2 CHA:2 (Spent 7) for A in attributes

Karma: 150+100+70+150+25+45+10+10=560 for ATT and then 90 for race: 650 of 800 for A and B priority.

Skills where D 22 points had three skills at 6 with specalizations comes to 49 each, one skill at rank one = 149

No Karma for equipment, contacts, knowledge skills.

This of course would be a very focused troll Street Sam. Using Karma and negative qualities to balance out skills via priority system (only taking Improved for positive)

Fair note this was all done quick and without double checking math so please be understanding if I made a numbers error.

Now Karma would build an amazingly good balanced Troll I feel and I have zero complaints about the system. Both options allow for different type's of builds and appeal to different types of players.


Have to say I enjoy the life modules though, great for a wide range of skills. Made an elf military background and a human ganger. Have not spent all of the Elf's karma as of yet but the Human is rocking.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Fable on <12-20-14/0504:50>
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: PiXeL01 on <12-20-14/0539:49>
At some later date they'll probably introduce both of them again. AI might appear in Data Trails or at least an explanation to what happened to them.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <12-20-14/0754:13>
I found the story with Netcat and Slamm-O rather funny(especially with the typos in the erotic fanfiction "Netcat held the toaster to her naked bosom, his perky elven brown nipples..")...
I've been working a long time (http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=39324&view=findpost&p=1249743) to make horrible shipping fanfiction in Shadowrun canon.   ;D
You are a monster and we love you for it. Now all I need is Mungo stats. ^_^ See how the team reacts to an ice cream van.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Mystic on <12-20-14/0830:13>
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.

Or in the interm you could...make new characters? Always an option. Just sayin'.  ;)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-20-14/1011:46>
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.

Wow...  I wasn't aware that AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes were so popular as to stop books from being sold to two people.  I suppose two people would probably have been worth adding a bunch more stuff to the book and increasing the cost, time to completion, etc.  Cause yeah - the two people who give a crap about those sapients are definitely the ones that Catalyst wants to target.

 ::)

To head anyone off, I realize that two complainers aren't the whole of the world of people who might have issue with this.  But given the ratio of complainers :: non-complainers, it seems obvious that the complainers are a small minority.  Why would anyone be surprised when their less-than-popular, annoyingly special snowflake characters aren't covered in a book designed for the majority?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <12-20-14/1017:57>
Uhm, you may want to edit that post because it doesn't seem fair to be that harsh.

On subject, I must admit that I consider AIs and Free Spirits to be rather problematic player-characters, and the same goes for Drakes. I can imagine they were cut due to being too complicated right now, and while I imagine AIs may become PCs in Data Trails, I do not know about the other two. If that is a deal-breaker for people, then that is their fair right though I myself do not share their concerns.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Fedifensor on <12-20-14/1112:00>
I just want to say that I was expecting point-buy, but the "sum to 10" character creation is both unexpected and brilliant!
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Sendaz on <12-20-14/1124:19>
I will wager they are parsing it out a bit more.  AI PC may probably see a return with Data Trails as this will be tieing up some loose ends as well as offering more options for all things Matrixy.

While it may have been nice to see Drakes, they may still be overhauling these, hopefully using a system similar to the new Infected way to grow.  And you may want to houserule something using that system's idea in the meantime.

The Sum to 10 idea is growing on me as it gives a little more room to tweak to taste.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Fable on <12-20-14/1133:16>
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.

Wow...  I wasn't aware that AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes were so popular as to stop books from being sold to two people.  I suppose two people would probably have been worth adding a bunch more stuff to the book and increasing the cost, time to completion, etc.  Cause yeah - the two people who give a crap about those sapients are definitely the ones that Catalyst wants to target.

 ::)

To head anyone off, I realize that two complainers aren't the whole of the world of people who might have issue with this.  But given the ratio of complainers :: non-complainers, it seems obvious that the complainers are a small minority.  Why would anyone be surprised when their less-than-popular, annoyingly special snowflake characters aren't covered in a book designed for the majority?

Maybe because those "annoyingly special snowflake characters", which were, by the way, official options the publisher put out, WERE covered in the 4th edition version of this very same book. Expecting the 5th edition version of the Runners Companion to cover the same core topics the 4th did? Clearly, I am a madwoman.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Michael Chandra on <12-20-14/1208:21>
The same core topics, that expectation has been met. But every option still existing, yes that expectation I would personally consider one of a madwoman. The books so far have established that they have not feared postponing some things or cutting them altogether. So we know that some qualities, or types, or spells, or weapon modification options are gone and may or may not return in the future.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: callmedinosaur on <12-20-14/1216:01>
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.

Wow...  I wasn't aware that AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes were so popular as to stop books from being sold to two people.  I suppose two people would probably have been worth adding a bunch more stuff to the book and increasing the cost, time to completion, etc.  Cause yeah - the two people who give a crap about those sapients are definitely the ones that Catalyst wants to target.

 ::)

To head anyone off, I realize that two complainers aren't the whole of the world of people who might have issue with this.  But given the ratio of complainers :: non-complainers, it seems obvious that the complainers are a small minority.  Why would anyone be surprised when their less-than-popular, annoyingly special snowflake characters aren't covered in a book designed for the majority?

Maybe because those "annoyingly special snowflake characters", which were, by the way, official options the publisher put out, WERE covered in the 4th edition version of this very same book. Expecting the 5th edition version of the Runners Companion to cover the same core topics the 4th did? Clearly, I am a madwoman.

ok wow that escalated quickly, could we maybe not continue this as a fight or with all the hostility that it started with, AI and Free spirits were both character options in 4th and just writing them off as special snowflakes is kinda lame when talking about playing a role-playing game, i've seen people play the classic hobo with a shotgun as a 'special snowflake' it's an at table dynamic issue not a character option issue anything that exists in the setting, is balanced with the rest of the party, and is sentient can make for a compelling story opportunity and i don't see why it's an issue.

on the other hand just because something was in a 4th corebook doesn't mean that we're entitled to it being in the 5th corebook for the same subject. run faster is not just a refit of runner's companion for 5, it's a new book, assembled differently and handles a lot of similar material as runner's companion, but is very different in approach and content. honestly a big annoyance for me last edition was with 4th having AI options in runner's along with a completely separate set of AI npc section in unwired, i didn't make sense and split the material in a way that didn't work quite right, the matrix is the biggest overhaul of 5th, the matrix will take the most effort of the core books to write (though the things they changed in run faster god that must have taken a lot too) and having the AI character rules in book and cohesive with the full matrix rules makes so much more sense then parceling them out separate. as for free spirits i don't really know where they belong, their structure is so different from any other character type even ai, and given their knowledge-base and the real inability of the shadowrun setting to give us a clear understanding of the nature of spirits and the metaplanes (which is fantastic by the way and is one of the most compelling bits of magic in the setting) i just don't know how appropriate they are for players, and that's coming from someone that's willing to work with players playing toxics or insect shamans even.

 i know it's pretty lame that they were supported and now aren't and some of your players are hung out to dry from it. but can we just be respectful of each other, i mean if we're on this forum we all really love shadowrun, like coming at people for being excited about it when you're disappointed isn't cool, same as responding to that with even more aggressiveness. can we just like not escalate.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: incrdbil on <12-20-14/1235:37>
Just because something was in a prior edition doesn't mean it should be around.  The elimination of much of the nanite technology I've very happy with, and fringes, problem causing characters like AI's, free spirits, and drakes can be added to the pile of items the game, for most GM's, can do without. If you really have to have such odd, unbalanced things, then simply convert on your own, and don't waste space in such an essential product for items with virtually no appeal top the overwhelming majority of campaigns.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Critias on <12-20-14/1410:42>
I just want to say that I was expecting point-buy, but the "sum to 10" character creation is both unexpected and brilliant!
*thumbs up*
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: DeathStrobe on <12-20-14/1513:39>
Honestly, after reading the section on the new generation systems, I want my money back. Not having true Build Point, but rather just a re-named Karma Generation, strange new version of Priority and a weird generation system like those modules is really a deal breaker.

The qualities seem all right and the advanced lifestyle is nice to have back, but when the one thing one purchases the product for is not present...

You bought it just for build point system, and are upset that Karma gen isn't BP? That doesn't make any sense to me, what advantage does BP have over karma gen when they mechanically work the exact same only with more math to convert BP to karma or back. What can you do with BP that can't be done with karma gen?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: 8-bit on <12-20-14/1518:25>
I was expecting both to be present, and not having both is a complete deal breaker.

I don't know what to say, since that is unfortunate that you were disappointed. Doesn't make it a bad book, just not what you were looking for.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: 8-bit on <12-20-14/1533:24>
I was expecting both to be present, and not having both is a complete deal breaker.

I don't know what to say, since that is unfortunate that you were disappointed. Doesn't make it a bad book, just not what you were looking for.

Actually it does. The good parts (qualities and advanced lifestyle) could have easily been done in a smaller publication for just them, and the same could be said for the meta-variants and Infected--don't really care one way or the other for that section as I don't ever use those things, but some do, and Mr. Goodman tends to do pretty good.

So, because every section of the book can be split into separate books, which would likely have different release dates and be horribly inconvenient and annoying for practically everyone, it makes the book bad? I could say the same for what you were looking for. They could have just created a mini-book with 2-4 different character creation systems.

Instead, what they did is put all of that stuff (minus BP building ... which you could just play 4th for or convert it yourself, it's not that hard; it's basically the exact same) into something convenient for all of us who don't want 60 books at our table to play the game.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-20-14/1727:02>
*quote clipped*

*quote clipped*


*quote clipped*

There's no reason to think that you won't see AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes back in the game as playable characters in later content updates.  Fact is, I wasn't trying to single anyone out - that's why I have included all three of the "special snowflakes" that weren't included in my list.  I can think of several reasons why some content wasn't included in this book.  I was not trying to piss anyone off.  I was pointing out, in my own convoluted fashion, that these three types of characters weren't tremendously popular (to my knowledge) and therefore may have been cut out of this book for just that reason.  If anyone took that personally, I apologize - that was not my intention.  As I stated, nothing that I said was intended to be personal.

Let's be clear, this topic is important, so I tend to treat it as such.  I do not jump to conclusions, and I refuse to make a decision without sufficient evidence.  There have been people on these forums (thankfully they haven't appeared recently) that have argued that the existence of the Shadow Spells PDF and the content within it (some of which was deliberately taken out of Street Grimoire) was some sort of conspiracy to get us to buy more stuff.  If I seem aggressive in my defense of the decision to remove content that was in Runner's Companion, it's simply because I have gotten into these kinds of arguments in the past and I want to head them off before they go down the crazy rabbit hole.

Now to discuss why some content from Runner's Companion is not present in Run Faster.  I'll start with one of my favorite quotes:  "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor).  Another great one is this: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Argument from Ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Distinguishing_absence_of_evidence_from_evidence_of_absence).  Between those two cautionary logical positions, there can be myriad reasons why the content wasn't included.  But the one that seems least likely to be the case is that Catalyst has decided to forgo support of this content completely.  Is it possible?  Sure.  But is it likely?  Not really.

In many cases, the main content books have been Missions-legal (with a few changes), whereas the PDF books are not Missions-legal.  So the decision may have been made to put these character types in later content for just that reason too.  Or perhaps they got to 255 pages and decided that enough was enough?  Or maybe they decided that those rules needed more work?  Or...  Or...  you get my point.  There are probably dozens of reasons why something doesn't go into a book.  And probably three or four of them that are correct.

But rather than discuss it logically, people like to jump to conclusions.  People like to assume that the lack of content for ... say, a German life module, would indicate that Catalyst is somehow not supporting German-related content.  It's just not logical to leap to these types of conclusions based on the lack of evidence.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Medicineman on <12-20-14/1757:07>
Quote
People like to assume that the lack of content for ... say, a German life module, would indicate that Catalyst is somehow not supporting German-related content. 

Well, it gives the Pegasus guys something to write on their own and to add to the content of Running faster :)

With a nocturnal Dance
(Its near Midnight now in Germany)
Medicineman
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Ryo on <12-20-14/1800:17>
I won't be as vitriolic about it as some others here, but I will add my voice to the complaints at the lack of AI and Free Spirit player character options. I wanted to get Run Faster for three reasons, in order.

1. AI PC options

2. Free Spirit PC options

3. A Karma Gen that was balanced to Priority

And it sounds like this book disappoints me on all three, from what I've heard. No AI or Free Spirits, and Karma Gen gives you too little Karma to make character equivalent to what Priority can do.

It's not simply a case of players wanting to be special snowflakes, these rules also help create NPCs that are unique and interesting, but still balanced to the same level as a player character. In the games I run, I have multiple AI characters that turn up, a few Free Spirits of important note, as well as a lot of Infected, Changelings and other things. I feel these kinds of characters are just as important to the feel of Shadowrun as an elf or a troll, and greatly expands the world we all enjoy to play with.

The absence of AI is especially troubling to me, and I strongly hope they reemerge in Data Trails with in depth creation rules. There are plenty of options to explore the magical side of the Shadowrun world, with all kinds of paracritters and metasapients running around, but there is very little of the sci-fi side. I want AI, I want robots. Maybe even some Aliens, although I won't hold my breath on that.

Granted, I'll probably buy this book anyway. I've bought every book Catalyst has put out so far, and it does sound like Run Faster has a lot more to offer that I will enjoy. But I am still disappointed.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-20-14/1804:23>
You bring up a good point Ryo.  And I too hope to see additional content for AIs and such when Data Trails comes out.  I think that in hindsight, it would have been better to release Run Faster right after the main book, then books like Data Trails and Street Grimoire could have added content to Run Faster's character creation modules.  And I would imagine that location-specific books will have new lifestyle options and such too.  I wonder if anyone at Catalyst sees it how I do?  Run Faster is such a great book, but the timing could have been better in the long run for it to have come out first.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-20-14/1832:54>
I have absolutely no idea if this is in the works, but it makes sense to me to include modular chargen blocks in location books as a way of combining fluff and crunch.

In terms of karma vs priority: it really depends.  If you're building a physical troll, you're probably better off with priority because the higher-level attributes cost a ton.  On the other hand, other archetypes are more efficient with karma--I suspect we've all built a character and had one or two attribute points too few or too many.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: callmedinosaur on <12-20-14/1937:06>

There's no reason to think that you won't see AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes back in the game as playable characters in later content updates.  Fact is, I wasn't trying to single anyone out - that's why I have included all three of the "special snowflakes" that weren't included in my list.  I can think of several reasons why some content wasn't included in this book.  I was not trying to piss anyone off.  I was pointing out, in my own convoluted fashion, that these three types of characters weren't tremendously popular (to my knowledge) and therefore may have been cut out of this book for just that reason.  If anyone took that personally, I apologize - that was not my intention.  As I stated, nothing that I said was intended to be personal.


no worries friend, no offense taken, i feel we agree more than we disagree on this tbh

Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Giabralter on <12-20-14/1958:39>
I have absolutely no idea if this is in the works, but it makes sense to me to include modular chargen blocks in location books as a way of combining fluff and crunch.

Brilliant!
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-20-14/2020:30>
I have absolutely no idea if this is in the works, but it makes sense to me to include modular chargen blocks in location books as a way of combining fluff and crunch.

I'm hoping that this is why they neglected to include a Life Module for Aztlan and CFS.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Sendaz on <12-20-14/2033:57>
I have absolutely no idea if this is in the works, but it makes sense to me to include modular chargen blocks in location books as a way of combining fluff and crunch.

I'm hoping that this is why they neglected to include a Life Module for Aztlan and CFS.
An updated Aztlan location book would be awesome.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-20-14/2251:22>
I know location books haven't always sold well in the past, but if there is included content like life modules, it would probably sell a lot better.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Fable on <12-21-14/0028:14>
*quote clipped*

*quote clipped*


*quote clipped*

There's no reason to think that you won't see AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes back in the game as playable characters in later content updates.  Fact is, I wasn't trying to single anyone out - that's why I have included all three of the "special snowflakes" that weren't included in my list.  I can think of several reasons why some content wasn't included in this book.  I was not trying to piss anyone off.  I was pointing out, in my own convoluted fashion, that these three types of characters weren't tremendously popular (to my knowledge) and therefore may have been cut out of this book for just that reason.  If anyone took that personally, I apologize - that was not my intention.  As I stated, nothing that I said was intended to be personal.

Let's be clear, this topic is important, so I tend to treat it as such.  I do not jump to conclusions, and I refuse to make a decision without sufficient evidence.  There have been people on these forums (thankfully they haven't appeared recently) that have argued that the existence of the Shadow Spells PDF and the content within it (some of which was deliberately taken out of Street Grimoire) was some sort of conspiracy to get us to buy more stuff.  If I seem aggressive in my defense of the decision to remove content that was in Runner's Companion, it's simply because I have gotten into these kinds of arguments in the past and I want to head them off before they go down the crazy rabbit hole.

Now to discuss why some content from Runner's Companion is not present in Run Faster.  I'll start with one of my favorite quotes:  "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor).  Another great one is this: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Argument from Ignorance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance#Distinguishing_absence_of_evidence_from_evidence_of_absence).  Between those two cautionary logical positions, there can be myriad reasons why the content wasn't included.  But the one that seems least likely to be the case is that Catalyst has decided to forgo support of this content completely.  Is it possible?  Sure.  But is it likely?  Not really.

In many cases, the main content books have been Missions-legal (with a few changes), whereas the PDF books are not Missions-legal.  So the decision may have been made to put these character types in later content for just that reason too.  Or perhaps they got to 255 pages and decided that enough was enough?  Or maybe they decided that those rules needed more work?  Or...  Or...  you get my point.  There are probably dozens of reasons why something doesn't go into a book.  And probably three or four of them that are correct.

But rather than discuss it logically, people like to jump to conclusions.  People like to assume that the lack of content for ... say, a German life module, would indicate that Catalyst is somehow not supporting German-related content.  It's just not logical to leap to these types of conclusions based on the lack of evidence.

My problem is this. When Shadowrun moved from 3rd to 4th, they also moved the timeline forward by several years. It was an implied "hey, retire your characters". I have players who have played their 4th ed characters for several years. I can't just go to those characters (one of whom, yes, plays a Free Spirit) and say "Well, you have to dump your character, because there's no rules support for you in 5th."

The notion that they might put it in later books? Okay, sure, great. But I've already had to hold off switching to 5th since it came out because of this issue. So the fact that they still give me nothing, in the book I was expecting it to be in? Yeah, that's off-putting.

I don't think it's too much to ask, as paying customers, to at least get an idea of what is or isn't GOING to be supported in an edition. For example, if you're not going to support Free Spirits (or Drakes, or AI, or whatever), then TELL US that, so we can plan and move ahead. Similarly, if you ARE going to support it, say that, and give us at least a ballpark of what we're looking at. I would have been content (not happy, but accepting), if they said "Oh, hey, we'll be putting Free Spirit character info in Magic: Ebb and Flow, coming to you mid 2015" then for me to get the corebook...no support...Street Grimoire...no support...Run Faster...no support...and no idea if ANY support is coming at all. I can understand "hey, we're working on it and it will take some time to get to you". But the total lack of a roadmap or knowing if it's going to be supported at all? THAT isn't acceptable to me, if they want me to keep giving them my money.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: KraakenDazs on <12-21-14/0207:25>
Okay... ive been waiting for Run Faster for months and months down, so could anyone who's already purchased it, and who's unbiased (sorry all the freelancers, die-hard fans and other CGL employees floating around the forum :P) give me a quick review? I understand it's been an hectic (2) Year(s) (and a half) of Shadowrun. (And having co-owned a small mobile gaming company in the past...yeah. Shit happens, payroll issues happen, people don't make good on their deadlines and promises, etc... ) So basically, *delays* happens. All the time. And while i subscribe to Fable's ideology that a road map would seriously make up for a lot of it...silence and distance from direct customers is also just as valid a business plan, and i can't judge it because it's not how *I* would do things.

So i really want to give Run Faster a shot (And basically give 5th ed a new shot), buuuut i'm the kind of person who needs to be okay with the bad before i can enjoy the good. I also understand everything comes with some bad....i just can't stand people sweeping it under the rug and acting like it's not there :P

So could anyone who's purchased it indulge my inner whiner-baby and give me a quick review? Whats good, whats bad, whats old, whats new, whats missing?


My main concerns are:

1-Editing: Is it any good?
Since Street Grimoire i made a vow to myself that i would not spend money to any more shoddy editing. And wether or not i blame anyone or understand the reason behind why and how such obvious editing mistakes happened...bottom line is, i hated it, despised it, and im not spending a dime on similar quality product every again. My decision alone, and i dont claim to speak for the run-of-the-mill customer or anyone else. If editing's bad...i just can't enjoy the rules behind them, no matter how awesome.

2-Rules: Any conflicts? Does it resolve any previous issues/ Breaks new things? I was happy to hear the Equipement book fixed the grenade dodging rules, and it did alleviate a massive frustration i had with the general brokeness of the system. Michael Chandra's link in his signature alleviated most of the rest as well...but yeah. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...i end  a little paranoid and bitter :P

3-So this is the char-gen book, bringing out all the weird stuff. I've already seen AIs, Drakes and Free Spirits aren't included. I can live with that. Would've preferred an head's up, but yeah.So...anything else is missing from the 4ed equivalent? What's new, if anything?

4-I saw this book as the last ''official'' book i needed to give 5e in general a new shot. I figure when the rigger and cybertech book comes out, ill just include it in game as the launch of the latest ''Gen'' of tech in-game. I couldnt really do that without char gen or magic, but its easily doable with equipment, cyber, and tech. So this question is a little bit more of a wild card. To anyone answering my questions, what do YOU feel is currently ''missing'' in 5e, CORE or otherwise?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: MijRai on <12-21-14/0232:36>
Okay... ive been waiting for Run Faster for months and months down, so could anyone who's already purchased it, and who's unbiased (sorry all the freelancers, die-hard fans and other CGL employees floating around the forum :P) give me a quick review? I understand it's been an hectic (2) Year(s) (and a half) of Shadowrun. (And having co-owned a small mobile gaming company in the past...yeah. Shit happens, payroll issues happen, people don't make good on their deadlines and promises, etc... ) So basically, *delays* happens. All the time. And while i subscribe to Fable's ideology that a road map would seriously make up for a lot of it...silence and distance from direct customers is also just as valid a business plan, and i can't judge it because it's not how *I* would do things.

So i really want to give Run Faster a shot (And basically give 5th ed a new shot), buuuut i'm the kind of person who needs to be okay with the bad before i can enjoy the good. I also understand everything comes with some bad....i just can't stand people sweeping it under the rug and acting like it's not there :P

So could anyone who's purchased it indulge my inner whiner-baby and give me a quick review? Whats good, whats bad, whats old, whats new, whats missing?


My main concerns are:

1-Editing: Is it any good?
Since Street Grimoire i made a vow to myself that i would not spend money to any more shoddy editing. And wether or not i blame anyone or understand the reason behind why and how such obvious editing mistakes happened...bottom line is, i hated it, despised it, and im not spending a dime on similar quality product every again. My decision alone, and i dont claim to speak for the run-of-the-mill customer or anyone else. If editing's bad...i just can't enjoy the rules behind them, no matter how awesome.

2-Rules: Any conflicts? Does it resolve any previous issues/ Breaks new things? I was happy to hear the Equipement book fixed the grenade dodging rules, and it did alleviate a massive frustration i had with the general brokeness of the system. Michael Chandra's link in his signature alleviated most of the rest as well...but yeah. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...i end  a little paranoid and bitter :P

3-So this is the char-gen book, bringing out all the weird stuff. I've already seen AIs, Drakes and Free Spirits aren't included. I can live with that. Would've preferred an head's up, but yeah.So...anything else is missing from the 4ed equivalent? What's new, if anything?

4-I saw this book as the last ''official'' book i needed to give 5e in general a new shot. I figure when the rigger and cybertech book comes out, ill just include it in game as the launch of the latest ''Gen'' of tech in-game. I couldnt really do that without char gen or magic, but its easily doable with equipment, cyber, and tech. So this question is a little bit more of a wild card. To anyone answering my questions, what do YOU feel is currently ''missing'' in 5e, CORE or otherwise?

I, as a fan who isn't die-hard, would say it's totally worth it. 
1. Editing is great, I remember only two minor typographical concerns in the 255 pages, myself.  The layout is both easy to use and functional, and I had no quibbles there.

2.  There aren't any glaring conflicts, last I checked, nor are there any new broken toys for folks to play with.  Things like Arcane Arrester are nerfed (in a good way). 

3.  The lack of drakes, AIs and free spirits are pretty much the big leap as compared to the Runner's Companion.  Something new would be how Infected are handled, as you don't generally start with all of their powers; there's a Karma cost to 'learn' them, as it were, which makes starting as an Infected much easier and less broken. 

4.  As far as what's missing, where I'm concerned?  An augmentation/gear book and a rigger book.  I personally loathe working with the Matrix, so that's not even on my radar.  However, I love me some riggers, street sams, etc. 

I've got a more thorough review on DTRPG, if you're interested. 
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: 8-bit on <12-21-14/0237:13>
3.  The lack of drakes, AIs and free spirits are pretty much the big leap as compared to the Runner's Companion.  Something new would be how Infected are handled, as you don't generally start with all of their powers; there's a Karma cost to 'learn' them, as it were, which makes starting as an Infected much easier and less broken.

I would also add that there are a few new Infected in there as well; which may or may not be interesting.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: KraakenDazs on <12-21-14/0242:02>
I've got a more thorough review on DTRPG, if you're interested.

Read, and it alleviated many, manyof my worries towards the book. Buying it as we speak. That review did tip the balance, thanks a ton.

If it's good, i might even suck it up, and buy the equipement book, despite the editing. I HAVE said in the past that should catalyst up their game product-wise, that i'd return to financially supporting them.  I'll stick to my words.  8)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Ursus Maior on <12-21-14/0355:08>
I just want to say that I was expecting point-buy, but the "sum to 10" character creation is both unexpected and brilliant!
*thumbs up*
It was in SR3 and we used it back then. I guess my party will not re-convert their characters now, but it's nice to have it back. It makes tweaking easier, but still offers the simplicity of priorities in contrast to point-based methods.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Ursus Maior on <12-21-14/0401:01>
Quote
People like to assume that the lack of content for ... say, a German life module, would indicate that Catalyst is somehow not supporting German-related content. 

Well, it gives the Pegasus guys something to write on their own and to add to the content of Running faster :)
I used to buy the English books as hardcovers and PDFs. But maybe I'll switch to German hardcovers now. I like the extra stuff and the "Schattenkatalog" PDF-anthologies with extra addons. Plus the English -> German translation lag gave us 2050 for SR5 and maybe even Eurokrieg-Antiquitδten again. If this link is correct: http://www.shadowhelix.de/Shadowhelix:Angek%C3%BCndigte_Ver%C3%B6ffentlichungen
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Backgammon on <12-21-14/0825:20>
Hobo with a shotgun possibly could be the best negative quality ever!!!!!!!!!!!.

Hehehe that's one of mine, glad you like it :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Backgammon on <12-21-14/0834:22>
I have absolutely no idea if this is in the works, but it makes sense to me to include modular chargen blocks in location books as a way of combining fluff and crunch..

Hah, I had the exact same thought. I'll be including a life module for a certain location ebook in the works. I think, even if you don't use the life modules, they are superb for giving to players a sense of how people are. Like, you read the Tir module, and you get very concretely that humans and elves get a very different life than the other metas. I think they have a lot of value as a further layer of communicating to players what a place is like.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-21-14/1148:58>
My problem is this. When Shadowrun moved from 3rd to 4th, they also moved the timeline forward by several years. It was an implied "hey, retire your characters". I have players who have played their 4th ed characters for several years. I can't just go to those characters (one of whom, yes, plays a Free Spirit) and say "Well, you have to dump your character, because there's no rules support for you in 5th."

That is a VERY good point actually.  And I have to absolutely concede that one to you as I have no good counter-point to make.

The notion that they might put it in later books? Okay, sure, great. But I've already had to hold off switching to 5th since it came out because of this issue. So the fact that they still give me nothing, in the book I was expecting it to be in? Yeah, that's off-putting.

I can understand this, and I sympathize.  The information from 4th edition on these character types isn't likely to be so drastically different in 5th edition though as to prevent the opportunity to house rule things.  I know house rules are frustrating, but that's the way it is with any new edition.  Until the information is released, we have to adapt.  The only thing that would probably be HUGELY different in 5th edition is AIs.  The changes to the Matrix would likely make AIs a whole different animal.  They no longer have nodes to live on - presumably they just float around the Matrix.  I honestly have no clue where to begin with them.

I don't think it's too much to ask, as paying customers, to at least get an idea of what is or isn't GOING to be supported in an edition.

This would be a good idea, but there have been numerous discussions by us paying customers to try to get this sort of communication flowing, and none has happened.  The primary reason why no one can give us any kinds of dates and such is because when a date is mentioned, even off-handed, people take it to be gospel.  For instance, Street Grimoire was due out "by the end of summer" and people started using the solstice to justify the delay or to say that "end of summer" referred to September 1st.  It was insane.

Additionally, Catalyst recently underwent a major overhauling of how the books are edited, compiled, formatted, etc.  This resulted in an overall delay in all material.  Run Faster is the first book printed with the new changes, which means Catalyst probably has no clear understanding of the effects of these changes on the book publishing process.

So because of a few bad apples who take things too literally, and internal changes to the quality of books, Catalyst is gun-shy about making dates or information for products now.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Grinder on <12-21-14/1508:54>
3.  The lack of drakes, AIs and free spirits are pretty much the big leap as compared to the Runner's Companion.  Something new would be how Infected are handled, as you don't generally start with all of their powers; there's a Karma cost to 'learn' them, as it were, which makes starting as an Infected much easier and less broken.

I would also add that there are a few new Infected in there as well; which may or may not be interesting.

Tell me more!  :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-21-14/1642:13>
They're not actually new per se.  I know that a lot of Infected information was spread out across a bunch of books in previous editions, and some of the infected that Patrick Goodman wanted to implement had to be added as unofficial errata - but they were all there in some form or another.

I am curious though: Patrick, can you elaborate on the absence of the Chupacabra?  I know it was a genengineered species in the past, but is it unlikely that any more exist?  If one were to be found or reproduced, what would it's stats and powers look like?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: DeathStrobe on <12-21-14/1710:55>
They're not actually new per se.  I know that a lot of Infected information was spread out across a bunch of books in previous editions, and some of the infected that Patrick Goodman wanted to implement had to be added as unofficial errata - but they were all there in some form or another.

I am curious though: Patrick, can you elaborate on the absence of the Chupacabra?  I know it was a genengineered species in the past, but is it unlikely that any more exist?  If one were to be found or reproduced, what would it's stats and powers look like?

Chupacabra's will probably make a comeback in the monster book. I don't think they're sapient so wouldn't make sense to include them in Run Faster, but that might not be what you're asking.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-21-14/1745:59>
I am curious though: Patrick, can you elaborate on the absence of the Chupacabra?  I know it was a genengineered species in the past, but is it unlikely that any more exist?  If one were to be found or reproduced, what would it's stats and powers look like?
The chupacabra isn't a playable metahuman. Had no place in the player's companion. That said, there is a stat block on a thumb drive across town from me, waiting for a critter book. Same goes for the drop bear.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: AJCarrington on <12-21-14/1817:38>
The chupacabra isn't a playable metahuman. Had no place in the player's companion. That said, there is a stat block on a thumb drive across town from me, waiting for a critter book. Same goes for the drop bear.

Appreciate that you're not hinting with this, but hope we see an updated critter book sometime in the future. Given the current full color approach, I'd be in it purely for the art ;) (though stats are nice too)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-21-14/1849:55>
Please, oh mighty Devs, assure us there is an Aztlan book in the works.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-22-14/0139:05>
Thanks for the reply - now I'm eagerly awaiting the Running Wild equivalent.  I assumed that the absence of some of the Infected might have been caused by this reasoning, so it's good to get confirmation and to learn that the truly freakish, horrid monsters of the world aren't being left out.  :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Fable on <12-22-14/1529:33>
This would be a good idea, but there have been numerous discussions by us paying customers to try to get this sort of communication flowing, and none has happened.  The primary reason why no one can give us any kinds of dates and such is because when a date is mentioned, even off-handed, people take it to be gospel.  For instance, Street Grimoire was due out "by the end of summer" and people started using the solstice to justify the delay or to say that "end of summer" referred to September 1st.  It was insane.

Additionally, Catalyst recently underwent a major overhauling of how the books are edited, compiled, formatted, etc.  This resulted in an overall delay in all material.  Run Faster is the first book printed with the new changes, which means Catalyst probably has no clear understanding of the effects of these changes on the book publishing process.

So because of a few bad apples who take things too literally, and internal changes to the quality of books, Catalyst is gun-shy about making dates or information for products now.

See, though...I'm not saying specific dates. Hell, I'm not even saying GENERAL dates, necessarily. Just a nice, simple "Yes, we will be providing support for playable (AIs/Free Spirits/Drakes/What The Heck Ever) in 5th Edition" or "No, we will not be providing support for (Insert all that stuff again) in 5th Edition". I don't think that is in any way too much to ask for.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: PeterSmith on <12-22-14/1544:45>
See, though...I'm not saying specific dates. Hell, I'm not even saying GENERAL dates, necessarily. Just a nice, simple "Yes, we will be providing support for playable (AIs/Free Spirits/Drakes/What The Heck Ever) in 5th Edition" or "No, we will not be providing support for (Insert all that stuff again) in 5th Edition". I don't think that is in any way too much to ask for.

Ok.

Yes, we may be supporting material that was released in previous versions of Shadowrun in 5th Edition at some point in the future.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-22-14/1716:52>
See, though...I'm not saying specific dates. Hell, I'm not even saying GENERAL dates, necessarily. Just a nice, simple "Yes, we will be providing support for playable (AIs/Free Spirits/Drakes/What The Heck Ever) in 5th Edition" or "No, we will not be providing support for (Insert all that stuff again) in 5th Edition". I don't think that is in any way too much to ask for.

You have to understand a few things about this whole process.  First off, Catalyst is hesitant to release any information about anything that will be coming out.  Dates are only a portion of that information.  Someone barely hinted at a date "at the end of summer" and it resulted in the forums exploding.  Someone else previously mentioned that rigger stuff would be in a separate book from Run & Gun and the forums exploded.  The fans here are very supportive of Shadowrun - some of us have been playing this game most of our adult lives.  So naturally we are very involved and even emotionally attached to the things we love.  But inevitably that emotional attachment results in some really REALLY vitriolic, bile-filled, god-awful crap being slung around.

So the decision was made that Catalyst wouldn't talk about any future content.  When someone even hints at future content, it can cause people to develop unrealistic expectations.  And when those expectations aren't met, people go completely guano crazy.  So when you see someone who works closely with Catalyst, like PeterSmith, saying that at some point content may exist to cover the things you may want to be covered...  he's not kidding.  It might happen - but it might not.  At any point during the editing process, content can be cut out with a flick of a wrist.  That's not to say that the decision to remove content is arbitrary, but rather that it's not hard to remove content.

Back a LONG time ago, I worked as a journalist.  If anyone's keeping track of the jobs I've mentioned that I've done, I think we're up to about 500.  I would get an assignment from my editor a week or so in advance of my deadline.  I'd then work contacts, angles, etc. for about 5 of those days.  I'd spend the 6th day writing, re-writing, and re-re-writing everything until I felt it was perfect.  And then I'd have to write it over again because the editor didn't like it.  And so there were times when my assignments came down almost to the wire, and when I turned it in and got the article green-lit, I would relax a little bit.  And it might not appear in the next paper.  There's millions of reasons why content can be removed, and it might happen at the moment right before printing begins - it's impossible to promise what will absolutely be covered at any given point.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: PiXeL01 on <12-23-14/0428:22>
Is it possible to receive clarification on whether a character still receives knowledge skills and contacts based on their mental stats when using the point buy or life module system?
Iirc Sum-to-10 states follow view rules in this regard but the other systems do not.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Backgammon on <12-23-14/0805:54>
Please, oh mighty Devs, assure us there is an Aztlan book in the works.

Out of curiosity, would you rather see a 20k words on AZTLAN, or focusing on Technotitlan (sp)?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <12-23-14/0913:08>
Please, oh mighty Devs, assure us there is an Aztlan book in the works.

Out of curiosity, would you rather see a 20k words on AZTLAN, or focusing on Technotitlan (sp)?
Personally, I think Aztlan or even South America as a whole is more interesting than just Tenochtitlan (Nahuatl spelling).

Then again, has there ever been a sourcebook that focuses solely on the UCAS, for example, as opposed to the city-specific ones like the various Seattle sourcebooks? The only recent nation-book that comes to mind is The Land of Promise (Tir Tairngire), honestly.

Perhaps a city-focused sourcebook that focuses on South America in general would be appropriate, something like Corporate Enclaves (Los Angeles, Neo-Tokyo, Dubai, Europort, Manhattan, Nairobi, and Tenochtitlan, incidentally), Feral Cities (Chicago, Lagos, Bogota, GeMiTo, Geneva, Karavan, and Sarjevo), or Runner Havens (Hong Kong, Seattle, Capetown, Caracas, Hamburg, and Istanbul).

I have no idea how far 20k words go, but for my money I'd definitely buy a South America book, and I would personally buy an Aztlan book over "just" a Tenochtitlan book.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-23-14/0929:44>
+1 for a Aztlan book over a Tenochtitlan one.

Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: PeterSmith on <12-23-14/0938:24>
I have no idea how far 20k words go...

I did a quick, hack job count with the Sail Away Sweet Sister PDF, and it came in at around 29k.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Patrick Goodman on <12-23-14/0943:37>
I have no idea how far 20k words go...

I did a quick, hack job count with the Sail Away Sweet Sister PDF, and it came in at around 29k.
That actually sounds about right. I think the story was around 27K, with the stats taking up the rest. I'd have to go look at my submitted draft to be sure.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <12-23-14/0944:24>
500 words is roughly equal to one page.  That's using 12-point Times New Roman, so Shadowrun layout would be different, but it's a decent guideline.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <12-23-14/1000:24>
I have no idea how far 20k words go...

I did a quick, hack job count with the Sail Away Sweet Sister PDF, and it came in at around 29k.
You made me curious, so I did the same for some of the 4th Edition location books. Here are my results (keeping in mind that these are counts of all text, including table of contents, afterwords, etc):

Corporate Enclaves: ~115k words, 138 pages (~833 words per page)
Feral Cities: ~115k words, 138 pages (~833 words per page)
Montreal 2074: ~17k words, 21 pages (~810 words per page)
Runner Havens: ~117k words, 146 pages (~801 words per page)
Seattle 2072: ~169k words, 202 pages (~836 words per page)
The Land of Promise: ~20k words, 24 pages (~833 words per page)
The Rotten Apple: Manhattan: ~24k words, 32 pages (~750 words per page)

The above certainly seems relatively consistent, so I'd expect a 20k word book to be around 24-30 pages or so.

That being said, the information contained in The Land of Promise is really good and it's at the same 20k word count that we're discussing here. To my mind, then, even at a relatively low word and page count compared to the behemoth that is the Seattle sourcebook, I think a 20k word book would cover Aztlan in an interesting way; the level of detail would be far less than how Seattle is covered, obviously, but I think it'd be an interesting book nonetheless.

For a more in-depth look at South America, though, I'd say something like the Corporate Enclaves and Feral Cities books would be more applicable; 120+ pages with 100k+ words. These are all quesstimates from my end, though, and as previously mentioned I'd be happy to see more material on everyone's "love to hate" mega, and Aztlan in general :)


EDIT:
While I knew about Gagarin station being a potential hot.-spot for CFD, I am thrilled that Run Faster flat out confirms it. From the Space Runs section on page 36:
"This is an especially good opportunity to have some CFD fun on Mars or one of the other space habitats (p. 166, Run & Gun) that have become a haven and breeding ground for the virus and the resulting head cases."

I can't wait for more info on this, and I would personally add a request for a space themed PDF, perhaps in the 20k word format discussed so far. Pretty please with space ships on top? :)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: DeathStrobe on <12-23-14/1357:45>
For 20k words I would really rather have a specific city. Tenochtitlan has very little written on it, so I think fleshing that out would be awesome.

I'm not sure if 20k words is enough for an update on Aztlan as a whole.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <12-23-14/1423:21>
They managed Tir Tairngire in 20k words, so for me it really boils down to "how much information do I really need on something". The Land of Promise was great in my opinion, whereas something like Seattle 2072 went above and beyond and has more source material than I'll ever use.

A fair compromise to my mind, if they'd do an in-depth book, is to follow the format of Corporate Enclaves, Feral Cities, and Runner Havens; multiple cities that fits a specific theme all covered in one larger book.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-23-14/1657:57>
I would love to see an in-depth look at each major country or region.  I fear that about 20-ish pages isn't going to cut it for that kind of thing.  I don't want to see Seattle 2072 about every single sprawl though, as that is probably too much and wouldn't get a good return on the investment for many people.  If the word count could bump to about 30,000 then it would probably be sufficient for a country as big and with as many recent events as Aztlan.  I could easily see Tenochitlan taking up a good 10,000 or so of those words though, as that and maybe Cali are about the major areas that runners would go to in Aztlan.  I want to get more of an idea of the culture of the country too - what do the people eat, drink, and wear?  What about the religion?  There's a lot to cover about the culture of Aztlan that wouldn't necessarily be covered in something focused on a specific city.  I also would love to know how the politics of Aztlan have changed recently - Storm Front hinted that the Aztlan army did almost all the fighting in Amazonia, with Aztechnology only providing materiel support.  It also hinted that there was some debate within the ranks on how to handle Sirrurg and such.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Imveros on <12-24-14/0127:24>
+1 for a Aztlan book over a Tenochtitlan one.

same here
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: The Tekwych on <12-24-14/0133:34>
What about a series of 'World Almanac' pamphlets, say 5 pages that sold digital for a few bucks. At 1.99-3.99 every one to two months or so we could get several cities without much cost and if they are popular a yearly hard copy omnibus could collect them.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Mystic on <12-24-14/0214:07>
The idea behind the upcoming Shadows in Focus series is to highlight cities or sprawls that may not have gotten much attention before. But if you have suggestions for future locations, maybe start a new thread or contact Mr. Hardy or Catalyst et al.

But back on topic...  ;)
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-24-14/1728:02>
Quote
You may also buy off negative qualities you may have obtained in the process with your extra Karma, and you may pick new positive
and negative qualities—but only if you are under the maximum amount of negative qualities (25 Karma total) after selecting all of your Life Modules. If you buy off
negative qualities with Karma to put you under the limit, you can then acquire more negative qualities.

I'll say one thing about this strange "module" one, it looks like the limit on Positives doesn't apply with it, at least going by the above quote which definitely makes it appear as though only Negatives are limited.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-24-14/1749:26>
So with the life modules, I haven't checked to see if this is possible yet, but can someone have more than 25 points of Positive Qualities after picking their modules?  A casual look suggests it would be damn hard to do, but I'm wondering if anyone has looked at that more closely.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-24-14/1751:56>
Not that hard. I pieced one together that got 25 points worth of Military Rank, the Hawkeye quality and Poor Link.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Namikaze on <12-24-14/1759:45>
Not that hard. I pieced one together that got 25 points worth of Military Rank, the Hawkeye quality and Poor Link.

Does the Military Rank quality stack?  I thought that if you had a character at Military School (Rank 5) and then went on to a Military Academy (Rank 20) that the Academy's rank change overrode the School's rank.  Even if that happened though, that would be well past the 25 point limit.  Are we supposed to remove qualities to get it back to the limit?  I guess that was kind of what you were asking to begin with, huh?

For balance purposes, I'd probably make it so that the player had to lose positive qualities until they were less than or equal to 25 points.  Same would apply to negative qualities though.  This would keep the character from being out of balance with other characters.  Any positive quality the player removes would add its karma value to the player's pool.  Any negative quality removed due to being over the cap would count against the player's karma pool though too.

That's what I think the intention was, anyway.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-24-14/1804:08>
I never really agreed with any sort of cap on Positives, to be perfectly honest. I mean, come on, you have to spend points to take them, so if someone has 50 points worth of Positives, then that's 50 fewer points they have for other things (generally speaking).
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Critias on <12-24-14/1843:12>
Personally, I'm a big fan of getting rid of the ceiling on positive or negative qualities (or the same ideas under various different names, in different editions and even in different games), with the onus being on the player and GM to talk to one another and explain expectations and get the 'okay' on things ahead of time.  It's easy to make a character who has a Corporate SIN (and assorted headaches) and something else going on in their life, right?  It's easy to make someone who's an Adept, has a Way, and has other knacks and advantages, right? 

Those ceilings can get hit awful damned fast, in my experience.  If someone's got a good reason to take more than the 25, and it makes sense for the character, and their GM is cool with it, man, I say let 'er rip. 
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-24-14/1912:33>
At least from the quote from Run Faster that I put in a previous post, it doesn't appear the Positive applies to that generation (which makes sense since in two modules I'd hit the normal ceiling with a quality that from the looks of it can go up to 30-something on its own).

The module generation example in question:

Meta-type
Human – 0 Karma

Nationality
Confederation of American States – 15 Karma
   Charisma – +1
   SINner (5)
   English – N
   Spanish – +1
   Computer – +2
   Etiquette – +1

Youth (up to Age 10)
Military Brat – 40 Karma
   Strength – 1
   Reaction – 1
   Uncouth (14)
   Close Combat – 2
   Negotiation – 1
   Perception – 1
   Knowledge: History – 1
   Knowledge: CAS – 1

Teen Years (up to Age 17)
Military School – 50 Karma
   Body – 1
   Charisma – 1
   Military Rank (5)
   Code of Honor (15)
   Electronics – 1
   Firearms – 1
   Blades – 1
   First Aid – 1
   Leadership – 1
   Unarmed Combat – 1
   Running – 1
   Swimming – 1
   Professional Knowledge: Military – 3
   Academic Knowledge: Military History – 3
   Academic Knowledge: Literature – 1
   Professional Knowledge: Strategy – 1

Further Education
Military Academy – Armed Forces Academy at Atlanta – 115 Karma
   Body – 1
   Reaction – 1
   Strength – 1
   Military Rank (20)
   Firearms – 1
   First Aid – 1
   Leadership – 1
   Navigation – 1
   Swimming – 1
   Unarmed Combat – 1
   Academic Knowledge: Military History – 2
   Professional Knowledge: Military – 3

Discipline – Business
   Con – 1
   Etiquette – 1
   Negotiation – 2
   Academic Knowledge: Economics – 5


The Real World
Tour of Duty – Army – 100 Karma
   Body – 1
   Reaction – 1
   Strength – 1
   Firearms – 1
   First Aid – 1
   Navigation – 1
   Unarmed Combat – 1
   Professional Knowledge: Military – 4
   Armorer – 1
   Blades – 1
   Free-Fall – 1
   Heavy Weapons – 1
   Pilot Ground Craft – 1
   Survival – 1
   Throwing Weapons – 1

Covert Operations – 100 Karma
   Intuition – 1
   Willpower – 1
   Hawkeye (3)
   Poor Link ( 8 )
   Chemistry – 1
   Con – 1
   Escape Artist – 1
   Etiquette – 1
   Gymnastics – 1
   Navigation – 1
   Perception – 1
   Pistols – 1
   Sneaking – 2
   Survival – 1
   Unarmed Combat – 2
   Spanish – 3
   Street Knowledge: Seattle – 3
   Street Knowledge: Tenochtitlan – 2
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-24-14/2237:53>
I thought the Qualities from LM's didn't count towards the overall limit....
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-24-14/2240:55>
I thought the Qualities from LM's didn't count towards the overall limit....

I know the Negatives do (specifically states that they do), but I'm finding it questionable with the Positives. The quote I provided along with the sheer number you can get with certain module combinations (like the one above) suggests a "No", but I'm unsure about that.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-24-14/2247:39>
I thought the Qualities from LM's didn't count towards the overall limit....

I know the Negatives do (specifically states that they do), but I'm finding it questionable with the Positives. The quote I provided along with the sheer number you can get with certain module combinations (like the one above) suggests a "No", but I'm unsure about that.

At least you can buy off some of those negatives at CC and replace them with others.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: All4BigGuns on <12-24-14/2252:50>
I thought the Qualities from LM's didn't count towards the overall limit....

I know the Negatives do (specifically states that they do), but I'm finding it questionable with the Positives. The quote I provided along with the sheer number you can get with certain module combinations (like the one above) suggests a "No", but I'm unsure about that.

At least you can buy off some of those negatives at CC and replace them with others.

Yeah...there's one that I really don't like in the combination I posted above...Uncouth.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Sabato Kuroi on <12-25-14/0612:36>
Is there a quality for regular jobs?
One of my players, an assassin, wants to find a job as a janitor because he plays a foreigner and thinks this kind of profession will get him acquainted with  the underbelly of  Seattle.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Lusis on <12-25-14/0753:42>
Day Job, page 154.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Tarislar on <12-25-14/2125:43>
3.  The lack of drakes, AIs and free spirits are pretty much the big leap as compared to the Runner's Companion.  Something new would be how Infected are handled, as you don't generally start with all of their powers; there's a Karma cost to 'learn' them, as it were, which makes starting as an Infected much easier and less broken.   

I'm really glad to hear about the infected advancement rules, Not that I've ever played one or really even wanted to play one, but the concept is good.
  I can see it being used on those 3 options that got left out of the book as they all are on the "special/overpowered" side but if they started "gimped" & had to work for those added abilities then it makes for a better starting point & growth options.

I can see all 3 of them being included in later books about Dragons, Spirits, & the Matrix.
  Which could also maybe give you some of those Life Path options that seems rather interested as well.

Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Tarislar on <12-25-14/2131:15>
Then again, has there ever been a sourcebook that focuses solely on the UCAS, for example, as opposed to the city-specific ones like the various Seattle sourcebooks? The only recent nation-book that comes to mind is The Land of Promise (Tir Tairngire), honestly.
There was Shadows of North America that had a full chapter on the UCAS covering several different cities.
Not quite the same thing but worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Wakshaani on <02-19-15/0642:09>
Dirty Tricks also covers big swaths of North America, including both teh CAS and the UCAS.

My favorite pages so far are p.253 and onwards. No need to improvise prices anymore!

And you're my new favorite person. Wear the tag proudly!
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Wakshaani on <02-19-15/0645:41>
A minor note, but if you look closely, you'll find that sound links (25 nuyen, 1 Capacity) are a real thing now.

As well they should have always been!
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Nevyn on <02-28-15/1658:25>
Making characters using the Life Modules seems awesome but limiting this to some North American nations is short sighted in both game and economics reasons... UK, Germany and Spain have enclaves of players and, as such, some characters are from those nations... Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Kincaid on <02-28-15/1713:45>
Making characters using the Life Modules seems awesome but limiting this to some North American nations is short sighted in both game and economics reasons... UK, Germany and Spain have enclaves of players and, as such, some characters are from those nations... Have I missed something?

Page limits.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Nevyn on <02-28-15/1802:24>
Yeah - I know.. It kinda sucks. I'd love guidance on building Modules. I cannot see a pattern yet.

My character is dynamic across many of these forms: an ork born to elven mother. Father is big man in London based corp that frowns on metas (elven kind are fine of course). So after a few years in UK he's shipped to relatives North of Chicago, then to Denver. So I went for Nation: UCAS. Then he's an ork brought up by humans but not cared for well and as an ork he's only too aware of his failings including a foreshortened life. I put him in as an orphan but losing the knowledge of the Foster System.

What about a new path: Rebel?
Formative Rebel has skills like Orphan but with Leadership +1, Con +1, Running +1 instead of Professional Knowledge +3.
Teen Years Rebel has attributes like Street Kid but Blades +1, Computers +1, Software +1 instead of the Acting Group and Sneaking +1, Negotiation +1, Street Knowledge (City) +1 instead of the Stealth group.

Just, you know, spitballing.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Tarislar on <03-01-15/0115:19>
Couldn't most any "North America" based module be renamed as something similar for another country?

I don't have run faster but it seems like most paths would have a representative of that "type" in other locations.

I'd suggest looking at the modules for the skills you want & then "rename" them to fit your background story.

Seems easier than trying to "balance" creating a completely new module with the amount of change your looking at .
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Herr Brackhaus on <03-01-15/1127:47>
I tried running some numbers on Life Modules and promptly gave up. The complexity involved is somewhat significant due to the fact that skills and attributes are so mutable. With a varying cost it's not just a matter of saying "module X gives Y karma" because they all build on each other.

One way of comparing the modules might be to simply count how many attributes, skills, and qualities they give you. It won't be perfect, but it'll give you a baseline at least.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Gwyrdallon on <03-03-15/0457:50>
While what is in the book seems good, I'll admit I was mostly buying it for the rules for weird character types, so the lack of AI, Free spirits and Drakes is a fairly big problem for me.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Nevyn on <03-05-15/1042:20>
Couldn't most any "North America" based module be renamed as something similar for another country?

I don't have run faster but it seems like most paths would have a representative of that "type" in other locations.

I'd suggest looking at the modules for the skills you want & then "rename" them to fit your background story.

Seems easier than trying to "balance" creating a completely new module with the amount of change your looking at .

I don't agree. I'm British, I grew up in Germany then was sent to the UK to a boarding school for military kids. I now live in the US and have 2 kids who are both American. I'd have to say that each of those paradigms are different. My kids are not me and an American system is as different to a German one as to a British one. Clearly people grow up as they are nurtured.

I don't think my changes are vastly different, I'm taking the equivalent number of Active Skill points and transferring them to other skills
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Tarislar on <03-05-15/1631:38>
I'm taking the equivalent number of Active Skill points and transferring them to other skills
Not by your example your not.

with Leadership +1, Con +1, Running +1 instead of Professional Knowledge +3.
but Blades +1, Computers +1, Software +1 instead of the Acting Group and
Sneaking +1, Negotiation +1, Street Knowledge (City) +1 instead of the Stealth group.

Your replacing Single Skills for Groups & Active Skills for Knowledge Skills.
Those are not the same amount of Karma.

Just my suggestion but, if you don't like the "Name-Story" of the Path then pick something that you do like & change the name/story v/s the game stats.
If there is not a single game stat path that you like, then, maybe I'd look into creating a whole new path, but before that I'd probably look at doing 1-2 end creation swaps instead.

I'd create a full character as close to what I want & then from there when its all compiled I'd look at the possibility of swapping some skills out or around.   Finished at Computer-4 & Software-3 but felt that the character was more an electrician v/s programmer, see about swapping them around to be Computer-3 & Hardware-4.
Ended up w/ Blades-4 but really wanted to have a guy skilled w/ the Baton instead.  Swap Blades-4 out for Clubs-4

Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Nevyn on <03-05-15/2233:01>
That's a good idea.

I replaced groups with individual skills but the groups I'm replacing both have 3 skills in the group... I wasn't aware that the karma cost would be less for the group. I didn't look, it has to be said.

The other one, the Professional Knowldge at +3 I agree isn't the same so, on my other post on a different forum section, I stated that the leadership +1 could be dropped but I wrote that post afterwards.

Sorry still getting used to the rules again, and I was never a big Karma user.
Title: Re: Run Faster Out!
Post by: Tarislar on <03-05-15/2359:32>
No worries, I'm just seeing it as a "balance" thing.
They give you a group skill so you should replace it with a group skill.
Sadly most groups have something you don't want in them which is why they are cheaper.
Knowledge skills meanwhile are 1/2 the price of Active.
Its also about the feel of the path & how it relates to those before/after, which is why I say wait till the end of chargen & then get w/ GM on some swaps.