Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Desiani on <02-06-17/2102:46>
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I'm thinking about taking the Prototype Transhuman (dryad) quality and am wondering if the used super thyroid is worth using .87 essence for the +1 Str/Bod/Agi/Rea.
Is this a Trap Bio ware and therefore be better off taking muscle toner and .6 other bioware?
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I'm fairly certain prototype transhuman doesn't allow the used quality of bioware.
from an optimization point of view I've never had a need for the suprathyroid myself there are more efficient ways of pumping the important physical stats for the most part. I'd rather +3 or +4 to the important stats like agility rather then a +1 to all physical.
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I'm not sure it's possible at char creation, but how would you get +3 or 4 ? The restricted gear quality?
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I'm fairly certain prototype transhuman doesn't allow the used quality of bioware.
If it's not considered viable, then switch from Used Grade to Omega Grade, with the drawback of "x1.25 Essence Cost".
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This has me thinking... Is prototype Transhuman available to any other meta type? The quality doesn't specify that it's human specific, only must be at char creation
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I'm not sure it's possible at char creation, but how would you get +3 or 4 ? The restricted gear quality?
more or less although I prefer cyber limbs for stat boosting. Bioware seems to be better at boosting mental stuff with things like cerebral boosters and the like since there isn't anything in the cyber side that does anything comparable.
This has me thinking... Is prototype Transhuman available to any other meta type? The quality doesn't specify that it's human specific, only must be at char creation
While the cap on positive qualities would prevent it I think you could reasonably even have a vampire with the quality prototype transhuman. Pixies Sasquatches and centaurs certainly work. evil corporations doing evil things to babies and all that. I suppose it wouldn't make sense to have an AI with the quality
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Everyone in Shadowrun who isn't "metasapient" is human; that's why it's "metahumanity". So Prototype Transhuman isn't referring just to the normal human metatype. It is confusing, I admit. But every metatype is still homo sapiens.
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Heh. That comment just made me go and spend a couple hours putting together a Naga Face/Shaman with Prototype Transhuman.
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Heh. That comment just made me go and spend a couple hours putting together a Naga Face/Shaman with Prototype Transhuman.
I've done worse things. Vampire combat medic comes to mind.
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I've done worse things. Vampire combat medic comes to mind.
"Oh, gosh, there's just... All this blood coming out of you. Looks..." The medic pauses, then licks their lips. "...Very bad, definitely gonna need to uh, patch you up..."
Then they reach over for their medkit while hiding the fact that they're licking their fingers.
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I'm not sure it's possible at char creation, but how would you get +3 or 4 ? The restricted gear quality?
Can't get Suprathyroid at all during char-gen without restricted gear quality- it's 20R availability. Also it doesn't have upgradable ratings. I think he meant it's better in general to use your resources to boost fewer attributes higher, than several attributes by only one level. You couldn't take Suprathyroid 4 times to get a +4 in each, it's a one and done
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Everyone in Shadowrun who isn't "metasapient" is human; that's why it's "metahumanity". So Prototype Transhuman isn't referring just to the normal human metatype. It is confusing, I admit. But every metatype is still homo sapiens.
Tell that to my slaughter humans spell that I cast on my nonhuman metatype runner team when we surrounded.
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Everyone in Shadowrun who isn't "metasapient" is human; that's why it's "metahumanity". So Prototype Transhuman isn't referring just to the normal human metatype. It is confusing, I admit. But every metatype is still homo sapiens.
Tell that to my slaughter humans spell that I cast on my nonhuman metatype runner team when we surrounded.
Saying "Slaughter Humans" is easier and quicker than saying "Slaughter Homo sapiens sapiens"
We know that the various metatypes are defined as follows:
Dwarf: Homo sapiens pumilionis
Elf: Homo sapiens nobilis
Human: Homo sapiens sapiens
Ork: Homo sapiens robustus
Troll: Homo sapiens ingentis
These subtypes were introduced all the way back in 1st edition, and are still in use today (see Run Faster).
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also used/omega grade isnt just pay the used status theres a characteristic that goes along with it
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also used/omega grade isnt just pay the used status theres a characteristic that goes along with it
I'm no where near a book at the moment. Would you be able to give me the page that info n is on?
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also used/omega grade isnt just pay the used status theres a characteristic that goes along with it
I'm no where near a book at the moment. Would you be able to give me the page that info n is on?
Chrome Flesh 71
What most of us are used
to is standard-grade cyberware—simple, off-the-shelf
upgrades that are mass-produced and mass-marketed.
When many of us started out, there was also “used,” or
to use modern terminology, “omega-class” cyberware.
(Why omega? Because it’s the end of the line.) The
terminology change isn’t just marketingspeak, though
that’s a big slice of it. Instead, omega cyberware is often
first-generation, just cheaply made and a knockoff
of more popular ’ware.
As an optional rule, a gamemaster may allow a player to take
some kind of drawback from their used cyberware instead of
1.2 times the normal Essence cost. While there are no hard and
fast rules for this, the greater the savings in Essence, the worse
the flaw should be. Examples might include a smartgun link that
won’t fire at people flagged as Ares employees; a cyberleg with
a bad knee, lowering the character’s run speed multiplier by
one; or wired reflexes without an off switch, resulting in a life
where they strike out against perceived threats in everyday life
with possibly tragic consequences. As always, the gamemaster
has final say.
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There is only an attendent drawback if the Optional Rule is used. Optional rule does not equate to a mandatory drawback, as you seem to be suggesting. :)
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There is only an attendent drawback if the Optional Rule is used. Optional rule does not equate to a mandatory drawback, as you seem to be suggesting. :)
Ummm....
The optional rule is the rule for Omega grade.
Hence, if you use Omega grade, there is a mandatory drawback.
People try to get cute by saying they'll take 1.25 essence cost as the drawback so they can get essentially 'used' cultured bioware.
But clearly that's not the intention.
Really, hitting people over the head with a hard cover copy of the CRB ought to be a thing.
Just kidding on the last part- well, mostly.
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I don't consider it cute at all. The book tells you that used falls under the umbrella of omega, as has already been quoted.
When many of us started out, there was also “used,” or to use modern terminology, “omega-class” cyberware.
What's left is for some people to catch up to the new edition.
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I don't consider it cute at all. The book tells you that used falls under the umbrella of omega, as has already been quoted.When many of us started out, there was also “used,” or to use modern terminology, “omega-class” cyberware.
What's left is for some people to catch up to the new edition.
a gamemaster may allow a player to take
some kind of drawback from their used cyberware instead of
1.2 times the normal Essence cost. While there are no hard and
fast rules for this, the greater the savings in Essence, the worse
the flaw should be. Examples might include a smartgun link that
won’t fire at people flagged as Ares employees; a cyberleg with
a bad knee, lowering the character’s run speed multiplier by
one; or wired reflexes without an off switch, resulting in a life
where they strike out against perceived threats in everyday life
with possibly tragic consequences. As always, the gamemaster
has final say.
note the "instead of the essence penalty."
I say cute because you want to insert the essence penalty instead of the essence penalty to get around the dissonance of 'used' cultured bioware.
If your GM is good with it: good for you.
It's no way in the spirit of the rule IMHO.
But each table plays its own game.
And that's how it should be.
Unless it's Missions- in which case every table should be the same in theory.
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a gamemaster may allow a player to take some kind of drawback from their used cyberware instead of 1.2 times the normal Essence cost.
So, first up, Omega-grade is an optional rule that effectively modifies the used grade 'ware. The text pretty explicitly states that it allows a character to take some sort of drawback in place of the increased essence cost of used-quality cyberware.
If you go by the letter of the rule, Omega-grade doesn't even apply to any bioware. A less strict reading is that it can only be applied to used 'ware. So if a game follows the idea that used culture bioware isn't a thing, then your out of luck.
Now, there are some people who think that the Omega-grade is an idea to replace used quality 'ware (in general), which is where the idea of being able to apply it to cultured bioware comes from. And that then expanded to the idea that you could "reapply" the essence cost as the drawback.
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Cyberware and bioware implants are available in five distinct
grades: standard, alphaware, betaware, deltaware,
and used... When purchasing implants of other
grades, apply the Essence Cost, Cost, and Availability adjustments
as noted on the Implant Grades table.
Bioware is subtler, more holistic, and less invasive than
cyberware, at the cost of being substantially pricier. Instead
of replacing body parts with machines, bioware
augments the body’s own functions and integrates transplanted
organs that function as natural features. The
application of biotechnology is a tricky business, as the
fine balance of homeostasis between the body’s organic
systems must be maintained.
Cultured bioware must be tailor-made for the body in
which it will eventually find a home. This means it is
more expensive and takes longer to acquire than the
off-the-shelf kind.
As an optional rule, a gamemaster may allow a player to take
some kind of drawback from their used cyberware instead of
1.2 times the normal Essence cost. While there are no hard and
fast rules for this, the greater the savings in Essence, the worse
the flaw should be. Examples might include a smartgun link that
won’t fire at people flagged as Ares employees; a cyberleg with
a bad knee, lowering the character’s run speed multiplier by
one; or wired reflexes without an off switch, resulting in a life
where they strike out against perceived threats in everyday life
with possibly tragic consequences. As always, the gamemaster
has final say.
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I missed Omega grade rules being cyberware specific. It took a while before anyone else said anything to that effect, too.
there are some people who think that the Omega-grade is an idea to replace used quality 'ware
To be fair, while the rule itself doesn't say as much, the setting info does, as quoted.
In creating a rule for Omega grade, the need to reflect that was apparently overlooked or considered unnecessary. So now we have the setting saying they're the same, while the rules stand apart and confuse readers into thinking they're two distinct grades.
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My group doesn't use omega at all as we pretty much leave out anything optional.
But I too missed that a RAW reading makes it cyberware specific.
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I think Omega (and Gamma) grade 'ware is cyber specific for 2 reasons.
For Omega, it is because "how do you have glitchy bioware?" malfunctioning bioware just doesn't really work. While cyberware can, because it is machinery.
For Gamma, it is cyber-specific because technology is advancing more and more, but the bioware is a step behind. Previously, delta-grade 'ware was considered rare or even "unheard of" and then bioware starting coming around too. So, even though delta-grade is more common now, that fore-front of tech is pushing forward (hence, the rumors of an even better grade of 'ware), but the bioware hasn't gotten to that stage yet.
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For Omega, it is because "how do you have glitchy bioware?"
Third edition Man & Machine had extensive rules for bioware "overstress" levels; light/moderate/serious/deadly. A significant percentage of fifth edition bioware augmentations are also in M&M, so if you're looking to educate yourself on what glitchy bioware (would) look like, it's well worth the read.
ie;
Nephritic Screen
Light: The nephritic screen begins to filter out needed nutrients as well as toxins. Users must take additional supplements.
Moderate: The filter becomes overloaded, and the (toxin) power reduction no longer applies.
Serious: Occasionally, the nephritic screen accumulates a threatening mass of non-filtered toxic particles, which slowly leak into the user's system. In addition to the numerous unpleasant side effects, such as blisters, rashes, and other ailments, the character is inflicted with a Light physical wound until the screen is cleaned. Cleaning requires therapeutic surgery.
Deadly: The screen stops filtering, and the user toxicity causes a urinary tract infection. The character suffers from a Serious physical wound until the screen is repaired.
Bioware can have problems, and presumably come with impairments, too.
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I suppose, smells discoloring twitching tremors tumors epiliptic episodes stress inducted vomitting puss discharge etc
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@Novocrane
The lack of such rules in 5th suggests that bioware has come a long way since.
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YMV; I'd say it shows that mechanics have been simplified. Possibly that no writer has pushed it forwards as part of an agenda. I don't believe it reflects the setting to say people selling bioware to SINless in a dystopia are always providing a perfect product.
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They'd better be given how much we're paying for it.
But realtalk, though, there are different stripes of SINless. I could see a streetdoc selling some SINless gangers some wonky bioware, but when a feared and respected streetsam walks into a beta clinic with over a million nuyen on his credstick, that's an entirely different scenario. Do runners still get ripped off on their 'wares from time to time? Yes. But I think enough streetsams have gone on revenge-fueled rampages and enough shifty streetdocs have had their kneecaps broken by now that when they do get ripped off it's something harder to detect than "your new superkidney is faulty and is actually killing you".
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Keeping in mind the terms of conversation (Used & Omega), 'ripped off' isn't what we're talking about. That would fall under Run & Gun 197.
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They'd better be given how much we're paying for it.
But realtalk, though, there are different stripes of SINless. I could see a streetdoc selling some SINless gangers some wonky bioware, but when a feared and respected streetsam walks into a beta clinic with over a million nuyen on his credstick, that's an entirely different scenario. Do runners still get ripped off on their 'wares from time to time? Yes. But I think enough streetsams have gone on revenge-fueled rampages and enough shifty streetdocs have had their kneecaps broken by now that when they do get ripped off it's something harder to detect than "your new superkidney is faulty and is actually killing you".
Imma just leave this here
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPoMqL1vglrh7OF_69pT8gYMYnYaq1r7WfPMcD587V9uOR_hW2)
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Keeping in mind the terms of conversation (Used & Omega), 'ripped off' isn't what we're talking about. That would fall under Run & Gun 197.
The general principle still applies. If something specifically causes streetsams to go on killing sprees in which valuable property is destroyed and valued employees and customers die (note: the streetsam himself may be a valued customer) it gets pulled until the corps fix whatever was wrong with it. R&D might be expensive, but so is property destruction, insurance premiums, hiring and training new employees and whatever marketing has to do to keep sales from dropping. This holds true whether it's something that turns everyone it's installed in into raving cyberpsychos or something that causes extreme customer dissatisfaction.
Imma just leave this here
Haven't seen it yet and don't want to spoil it for myself, but I suspect there's not been enough streetsams massacring people in that timeline to be relevant to this conversation.
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If something specifically causes streetsams to go on killing sprees in which valuable property is destroyed and valued employees and customers die (note: the streetsam himself may be a valued customer) it gets pulled until the corps fix
There's your problem(s).
Chop docs, barrens clinics, organleggers, etc? Not corp. (some exceptions, like how corps set up in Lagos and test prototype augmentations on the locals)
Killing sprees outside arcologies and corp citizen compounds? Places where chop docs ply their business? Not quite as common as Tuesday, but violence is common enough that the cops don't go in the worse suburbs, nor do they step in until after it's done in surrounding areas.
Wonky wares? If we're talking Used/Omega, and we are, then the street samurai in question *chose* problems over costs. No rampage on discovery.
Haven't seen it yet and don't want to spoil it for myself, but I suspect there's not been enough streetsams massacring people in that timeline to be relevant to this conversation.
Can you tell from the pic that he looks old, scarred, and messed up? Non-spoiler alert. One guess as to why that is, and one guess as to what augmentation he has.
Also, 'not enough'? How many times have they tried to weaponise mutants in the xmen setting? How many times has that failed?
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Not enough.
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Chop docs, barrens clinics, organleggers, etc? Not corp. (some exceptions, like how corps set up in Lagos and test prototype augmentations on the locals)
Killing sprees outside arcologies and corp citizen compounds? Places where chop docs ply their business? Not quite as common as Tuesday, but violence is common enough that the cops don't go in the worse suburbs, nor do they step in until after it's done in surrounding areas.
Wonky wares? If we're talking Used/Omega, and we are, then the street samurai in question *chose* problems over costs. No rampage on discovery.
Oh, okay, that makes sense.
Can you tell from the pic that he looks old, scarred, and messed up? Non-spoiler alert. One guess as to why that is, and one guess as to what augmentation he has.
The adamantium's slowly doing him in? Huh. No precedence for that, but I guess it's plausible.
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kinda like sleep regulators I mean only having to sleep 3 hours a day vs 8 hours