[Wayfinder]

I've seen doom and gloom about the Shadowrun line since the very beginning. I'm sure if I still had my archive of old Shadowrun mailing lists I'd find references to the end of the game and the poor direction of the line going back to 1990. I remember having exactly those discussions in IRC. There have been many times the future of this game line has been very cloudy and the end seemed very near. None of those times , including the end of FASA, has seemed as likely as the past year. The fact that we have any new product to talk about is frankly amazing. If there are a few typos and some errata that got missed, I say pull up your big girl panties, stop whining about someone else not doing enough, and do it yourself.

I'll be the first one to sign up as a volunteer to proofread.
I'll also take it upon myself to start finding errata in the books I currently own.

[KarmaInferno]

I thought it was pretty clear that he's working on the issue but needs to fit it into the production schedule:

Yes, I'll be working on that. It is, as always, a matter of finding the time …

Jason H.

Generally the response to "not enough time" is "make the time".

At least that's what my boss always barks at me.

Delegation does wonders.*




-k

* - as someon who just helped put together a local stage production doing what normally takes months in the space of weeks, I can say that the old adage "many hands make light work" really does apply.

[Mäx]

If there are a few typos and some errata that got missed, I say pull up your big girl panties, stop whining about someone else not doing enough, and do it yourself.

I would gladly release the erratas for Augmentation and RC if i had them, but unlike the Catalyst Games i don't have those erratas

[Cain]

I thought it was pretty clear that he's working on the issue but needs to fit it into the production schedule:

That's the "Get to it later" approach.  Personally, I'd rather see a: "The Buck Stops Here" approach, but you probably guessed that. 

I don't doubt that Jason has a busy schedule, but that's no excuse. 

[FastJack]

I thought it was pretty clear that he's working on the issue but needs to fit it into the production schedule:

That's the "Get to it later" approach.  Personally, I'd rather see a: "The Buck Stops Here" approach, but you probably guessed that. 

I don't doubt that Jason has a busy schedule, but that's no excuse. 

You could always volunteer your time to Proofread and correct Errata. Of course, to work on the project, you'd probably have to put in at least 20-30 hours a week. They might be able to budget some money for you, but hey, you love the game so much, I'm sure you'll give up your nights and weekends for free.

[Cain]

You could always volunteer your time to Proofread and correct Errata. Of course, to work on the project, you'd probably have to put in at least 20-30 hours a week. They might be able to budget some money for you, but hey, you love the game so much, I'm sure you'll give up your nights and weekends for free.

I'm disabled.  If Jason Hardy sends me a letter asking me to fix War!, along with an editable copy, I'd do it.  (Editable copy, natch, being so I can fix any typos I discover.)  I submitted fan stuff for SR3 for free, so don't worry about payment.  About the only thing I'd need to ask money for is whatever program they use to write the book in; I only have Acrobat Reader and Open Office; probably not what a professional shop uses. 

And for the record, I have a minor in English.  I'm a little out of date on the punctuation and grammar style guides, but I'm sure I can manage.  Oh, and I'm not super computer-savvy, so I'll need a few days to get used to the programs.  Otherwise, not a problem. 

Your move. 

[Bradd]

Just FYI, copy editors don't work directly on the final documents, that's what layout people do. Editors hand off explicit instructions to the layout people like, "On page X, section 'Stuff Matters,' replace the second paragraph, third sentence to the end, 'Ipsum lorem ...' with 'The quick brown fox jumped.'" The layout people then make the changes, fitting it in with minimal impact on the surrounding text, correcting page references and such as necessary. There's a lot more process to publishing than most fans realize, and everyone involved has multiple projects with schedules to meet. When JH says it's hard to fit things into the schedule, that doesn't mean he could fix things by staying late on a Thursday. He's not the only person who needs to work on it. And because of the difficulty of organizing things, and the cost of re-printing, they usually collect errata into batches, synced up with times that they'd be re-printing anyway.

[Cain]

All the more reason to have done it right in the first place. 

I haven't done any publishing since college-- way too many years ago-- so I'll admit ignorance.  However, I do know the importance of putting out a quality finished product.  ANd even if it takes a lot of time and effort, you need to spend that effort  if you want people to think you've got a quality product.  Jason Hardy said, in so many words, that he was more interested in producing books to sell than fixing shoddy product.  I think that's the wrong way to go. 

[FastJack]

Terrific! Cain, I'm being a little snarky (comes from just moving into a new place and still unpacking) and I apologize, but if you do have that kind of experience, step up to the plate and send JH a PM offering your services. When the board first launched, I did just that, offering my experience as a Web Developer to help out whenever needed. After a few months here, they offered me a Global Moderator position.

So, if you're serious about helping and not just complaining about what's wrong, then volunteer to help. JH might not be able to put you to work immediately, but he'll at least know there's an option out there if he needs it.

[Mäx]

Just FYI, copy editors don't work directly on the final documents, that's what layout people do. Editors hand off explicit instructions to the layout people like, "On page X, section 'Stuff Matters,' replace the second paragraph, third sentence to the end, 'Ipsum lorem ...' with 'The quick brown fox jumped.'" The layout people then make the changes, fitting it in with minimal impact on the surrounding text, correcting page references and such as necessary. There's a lot more process to publishing than most fans realize, and everyone involved has multiple projects with schedules to meet. When JH says it's hard to fit things into the schedule, that doesn't mean he could fix things by staying late on a Thursday. He's not the only person who needs to work on it. And because of the difficulty of organizing things, and the cost of re-printing, they usually collect errata into batches, synced up with times that they'd be re-printing anyway.

That would be a little more convincing post, if it wasn't a know fact that couple of erratas are ready and it's pretty much just that no have bothered to realise them to us.

[Lansdren]

Terrific! Cain, I'm being a little snarky (comes from just moving into a new place and still unpacking) and I apologize, but if you do have that kind of experience, step up to the plate and send JH a PM offering your services. When the board first launched, I did just that, offering my experience as a Web Developer to help out whenever needed. After a few months here, they offered me a Global Moderator position.

So, if you're serious about helping and not just complaining about what's wrong, then volunteer to help. JH might not be able to put you to work immediately, but he'll at least know there's an option out there if he needs it.

You appear to be missing the point of the question,

Simply the question is

Which is more important
A) Fixing mistakes at some point in the future
Or
B) Changing things to make sure there are less mistakes going forward (with a show of good will of putting out some fixes for previously admited fuckups)

Offering to help by any person outside the company is irrelevent to that question. In fact unless answer B is taken any offers of help are pointless as they are unlikely to be utilised if the 'At some point' option is taken forward.

[FastJack]

Terrific! Cain, I'm being a little snarky (comes from just moving into a new place and still unpacking) and I apologize, but if you do have that kind of experience, step up to the plate and send JH a PM offering your services. When the board first launched, I did just that, offering my experience as a Web Developer to help out whenever needed. After a few months here, they offered me a Global Moderator position.

So, if you're serious about helping and not just complaining about what's wrong, then volunteer to help. JH might not be able to put you to work immediately, but he'll at least know there's an option out there if he needs it.

You appear to be missing the point of the question,

Simply the question is

Which is more important
A) Fixing mistakes at some point in the future
Or
B) Changing things to make sure there are less mistakes going forward (with a show of good will of putting out some fixes for previously admited fuckups)

Offering to help by any person outside the company is irrelevent to that question. In fact unless answer B is taken any offers of help are pointless as they are unlikely to be utilised if the 'At some point' option is taken forward.

A) This is where my response comes in that it's better to try and help than to complain.

B) This has been discussed in other threads regarding the problems they've been having with a "leak" in the pool, which has resulted in them needing to tighten up security on projects. The tightened security means that freelancers are less likely to talk to each other as they're working on the project and, thus, JH has to go over everything himself. Unfortunately, this also increases the likelihood that errors will slip through (or he can delay the project's release 2-3 more months to give it a few more passes).

[Lansdren]

Terrific! Cain, I'm being a little snarky (comes from just moving into a new place and still unpacking) and I apologize, but if you do have that kind of experience, step up to the plate and send JH a PM offering your services. When the board first launched, I did just that, offering my experience as a Web Developer to help out whenever needed. After a few months here, they offered me a Global Moderator position.

So, if you're serious about helping and not just complaining about what's wrong, then volunteer to help. JH might not be able to put you to work immediately, but he'll at least know there's an option out there if he needs it.

You appear to be missing the point of the question,

Simply the question is

Which is more important
A) Fixing mistakes at some point in the future
Or
B) Changing things to make sure there are less mistakes going forward (with a show of good will of putting out some fixes for previously admited fuckups)

Offering to help by any person outside the company is irrelevent to that question. In fact unless answer B is taken any offers of help are pointless as they are unlikely to be utilised if the 'At some point' option is taken forward.

A) This is where my response comes in that it's better to try and help than to complain.

B) This has been discussed in other threads regarding the problems they've been having with a "leak" in the pool, which has resulted in them needing to tighten up security on projects. The tightened security means that freelancers are less likely to talk to each other as they're working on the project and, thus, JH has to go over everything himself. Unfortunately, this also increases the likelihood that errors will slip through (or he can delay the project's release 2-3 more months to give it a few more passes).

You seem quite hung up on people doing their work for them.

We cant all give up our time and devote ourselves to a unpaid position like your good self, this distinction doesnt make us any less worthy to make a point as a fan and a paying customer

The point I think is this.

Money is paid for goods - These goods have errors which would be unacceptable in most other areas of sales (this does not say it doesn't happen just it is not accepted). It is up to the company who creates them to do things better but in this instance they can earn goodwill by actively fixing the errors that have already happened and as such maybe keep some customers.

All suggestions of 'why don't you help rather then complain' are irrelevant to the actual issue. If they wanted help with the problem they could ask for it and I'm pretty sure they would have more offers then they know what to do with. But as so repeatedly pointed out by its absence they don't want the help.

Current updates have not been published as errata, promised errata have not been completed and the recent product has been more sloppy then expected. All these things are bad signs which do not appear to have been given the seriousness they deserve.

I would like to believe that things will get better and I would prefer not to aim any vitriol at any one person (I believe that the work is a team effort and every single person is responsible for his own input), but that being said I am somewhat worried by the 'We will do it when we want to and you should be damm well happy we are even doing this much' attitude.

[FastJack]

I would like to believe that things will get better and I would prefer not to aim any vitriol at any one person (I believe that the work is a team effort and every single person is responsible for his own input), but that being said I am somewhat worried by the 'We will do it when we want to and you should be damm well happy we are even doing this much' attitude.

This is the part that I'm getting hung up on. I have yet to see any such attitude from JH or any of the other freelancers that are working on the projects. It's not a "we'll do it when we want to" approach, it's a "we have X outstanding projects right now and, unfortunately, the errata isn't high on the priorities" approach.

[Semerkhet]

Just FYI:

The turnaround time between my email to Mr. Hardy offering to help proofread and his response with attached NDA forms was about three hours.  I turned in the NDA forms that night and received my first chapter for proofing a few days later.  I cannot say anything about how and whether proofreader changes are incorporated into the final product because I just started.  Once a product I helped proofread is published and I am no longer bound by NDA I will comment on the differences between the final product and the draft I was given to proofread.