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Proofreading: Any plans to fix the problem?

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« on: <12-22-10/2139:24> »
Hello.

I'm curious if there are any plans to release corrected pdf's of recent books.  There are a few products I would like to buy (War! and This Old Drone being at the top of my list), but I've heard so much about poor proofreading that I've been holding off. 

Thanks!

Tagz

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« Reply #1 on: <12-26-10/1953:37> »
I'd also like to know about this.  After buying Sixth World Almanac I was quite upset about the sidebar issue.  I've been very hesitant to buy any other product since then as I keep hearing about typographical, layout, etc, errors in the new content.

I understand that typos happen and a few will always get by, but lately it seems to be a bit more drastic of an issue with those errors that do get through being part of important parts of the books.

Thanks for your time.

ssjevot

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« Reply #2 on: <12-26-10/2347:57> »
I still want to see some errata for the Sixth World Almanac, because I legitimately want to know what those sidebars on the duplicated dates say.  I bought a paper copy so I'll never get an update if there was one for the .pdf.  I heard rumors of their being an updated paper copy, but I don't want to spend $40 on another copy just to see some errors fixed.  I too am withholding my purchase of future products until I hear there aren't major errors in them.  I bought War! and that turned me off to buying future products until these things are worked out.

If anyone could tell me what the correct text of the years 2020 and 2044 are in the sidebar in Sixth World Almanac, I would be very grateful.

hobgoblin

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« Reply #3 on: <12-27-10/0253:25> »
I suspect that they are more focused on getting a positive money flow by producing new products then correcting existing ones (at least as long as existing stocks last). This is basically how it is in all iterative businesses. Consider mobile phones for instance, any work hours spent correcting firmware bugs in a already sold product is a loss (as accounting sucks are enumerating goodwill). Also, SR seems to be on the general back burner at CGL. Consider the number of BT products released in recent months vs SR products.
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wraith

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« Reply #4 on: <12-27-10/0620:32> »
I suspect that they are more focused on getting a positive money flow by producing new products then correcting existing ones (at least as long as existing stocks last). This is basically how it is in all iterative businesses. Consider mobile phones for instance, any work hours spent correcting firmware bugs in a already sold product is a loss (as accounting sucks are enumerating goodwill). Also, SR seems to be on the general back burner at CGL. Consider the number of BT products released in recent months vs SR products.

Maybe I'm looking at a different cost/benefit analysis than they are, but I would think that gaining a reputation for shoddy product is far more detrimental in the long term than the short term gain from releasing before fully proofing.  Assuming, of course, that maintaining a customer base is a priority, which it may not be.

hobgoblin

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« Reply #5 on: <12-27-10/0632:31> »
I suspect that they are more focused on getting a positive money flow by producing new products then correcting existing ones (at least as long as existing stocks last). This is basically how it is in all iterative businesses. Consider mobile phones for instance, any work hours spent correcting firmware bugs in a already sold product is a loss (as accounting sucks are enumerating goodwill). Also, SR seems to be on the general back burner at CGL. Consider the number of BT products released in recent months vs SR products.

Maybe I'm looking at a different cost/benefit analysis than they are, but I would think that gaining a reputation for shoddy product is far more detrimental in the long term than the short term gain from releasing before fully proofing.  Assuming, of course, that maintaining a customer base is a priority, which it may not be.
Accounting have always been poor at enumerating the value of reputation and other intangible aspects of doing business.
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Semerkhet

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« Reply #6 on: <12-27-10/1239:49> »
I'd like to add my voice to the chorus demanding better proofreading and editing.  I bought a print copy of 6th World Almanac at GenCon and I was sorely disappointed in the number of errors I found.  I feel all the more silly for having made this purchase at the same time I was personally congratulating CGL staff at the booth for holding things together and continuing to publish product.

As was documented in the topic regarding "Darkest Hour" a number of mistakes in continuity and plot have been discovered, mistakes that I am frankly stunned made it through playtesting and proofreading.  In the credits for Darkest Hour there are thirty-two playtesters and eight proofreaders credited.  As many as five or six different gaming groups playtested Darkest Hour and not one of them noticed the straight-up contradictions about who was responsible for the murder of the Faustian leader?

Now I read that War! is poorly organized, has no maps or timeline, and is riddled with errors.  What am I, a loyal Shadowrun fan for over twenty years, supposed to make of this trend? 

Lansdren

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« Reply #7 on: <12-27-10/1500:31> »
I will add myself to this list of fellow runners

The current releases have not given me a happy happy feeling due to a lack of detail in the books.

It worrys me that the game is heading down the same route as computer games where goods can be rushed out half finished and 'patched' at some later date if ever
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Dread Moores

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« Reply #8 on: <12-28-10/1128:24> »
I'm definitely interested if there's any word on updated PDFs for the Artifact series and WAR (eventually, obviously, consider it was just released very recently). I might not always like the material presented in recent product, but that's just personal tastes differing. I'm okay with that, as I just use what I like and discard what I don't. I'd just hope that there's some behind the scenes work being done on the seemingly more frequent (than previous product) proofing/editing issues that have cropped up in those two particular recent products (Artifacts series and WAR, that is).

Raventrickster

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« Reply #9 on: <12-29-10/2357:13> »
Much as I'd love to see a statement along the lines of "We fucked up, here's a fix"  or even "We fucked up and we're working on a fix" from the main people behind the WAR! and 6WA books, somehow I doubt it.  For the most part the seem to have either closed ranks or just completely stopped posting in the face of actual reasoned criticism on obviously flawed product.  I'll admit there's been a lot of vitriol on the forums, and a *LOT* more on dumpshock, but when you're in the situation CGL is in after losing a lot of people's favorite freelancers you have to expect some anger just for the fact that people are (still) angry.

Do I expect them to respond to the personal attacks and rude flames?  Absolutely not!  Do I expect them to respond to reasoned criticism about products they're expecting people to part with cold hard cash in order to get?  Absolutely, especially when the flaws are as obvious as they apparently are with both 6WA and WAR!

Now to be fair, it's the holidays right now and maybe we'll come back from the new year to see some response to this situation.  I think the odds are almost as bad as those of pigs flying without mechanical aid, but I could be wrong (and would be very pleased to be proved so).

*** DISCLAIMER: To date I have only read a few sections of 6WA and have yet to see WAR!  I am basing my comments with regards to flaws largely on the expressed opinions on the Official forum and dumpshock, however they have been consistent and specific enough that treating them as facts seems reasonable.  I am personally trying to ignore the attack posts just as I point out that CGL must and focus on the reasonable and specific criticisms of problems that *should* have been addressed at some stage of the process before publication. ***

Bull

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« Reply #10 on: <12-30-10/0009:01> »
Actually, there's been comments by several freelancers about this, to a degree.  We can't do a lot about War! or 6WA.  But we've mentioned that there is a strong effort by the freelancer pool to try and work harder to self edit stuff better.  We want to make sure fact checking gets done, want to catch errors.  Unfortunately, we're also hampered somewhat by the fact that someone in the freelancer ranks keeps posting publicly everything we send around to the group, something that seriously upsets several of the writers.  So things aren't getting sent out to the group as a whole.  So on one hand, we have more people wanting to look stuff over, on the other we can't just send files out to the entire group anymore, like they could back in the day. 

It's an annoying and frustrating situation.

That said, I, for one, have been doing what I can to look over Attitude, and hopefully catch things.  Been pretty solid thus far, but it's also a lot more IC fluff and a lot less hard facts and deep and obscure SR history, mostly.  At least the few chapters I've gone over so far.

Bull

Dread Moores

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« Reply #11 on: <12-30-10/0025:50> »
Unfortunately, we're also hampered somewhat by the fact that someone in the freelancer ranks keeps posting publicly everything we send around to the group, something that seriously upsets several of the writers.  So things aren't getting sent out to the group as a whole.  So on one hand, we have more people wanting to look stuff over, on the other we can't just send files out to the entire group anymore, like they could back in the day.

Edit: Glad to hear the issues are being looked at and being dealt with.

And that's an understandable point. But outside of the freelancer group, (and I ask this out of lack of knowledge, not as an accusation), wouldn't that be something that an editor would be looking over as things are proofed? Meaning, the product goes back for a final check by somebody inside of CGL, before the layout is finalized and such? If that's the case, would leaks amongst the freelancer ranks matter? I also understand if this can't be answered.

More importantly, shouldn't those leaks be addressed? That doesn't sound like a situation which can continue without large impact on CGL's business operations. Also, as a fan who continues to pay for the products he wants, that's really disappointing and dishonest behavior to see from the folks who should be there to help with SR and are doing contract work for CGL.
« Last Edit: <12-30-10/0039:13> by Dread Moores »

Raventrickster

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« Reply #12 on: <12-30-10/0028:22> »
You're right Bull, and I appreciate that the freelancers have seen the feedback and are responding.  I've also heard about the problem with the freelancer group with regards to somebody posting things that should be private (just heard about it today mind you, like I said, holidays and all that).  The freelancer problem sucks and sounds like it needs to be tracked down and dealt with using a fairly large legal hammer, but that's neither here nor there.

The gist of my post was that while there is little the freelancers can do, there are things that the editing team and more important, the Shadowrun Line Developer can do, namely post errata.  It's been done in the past and should be something that continues to be done to fix problems.  Unfortunately it's been sorely lacking for some time now, even before the more recent troubles.  With the large number of problems there seem to be with the two most recent books it's even more important to actually address the problems rather than sweeping them under the rug and expecting people to ignore them and continue to buy books.  While it may not always be true, it's human nature to base decisions to purchase upcoming and new products on the basis of the quality of past products, and more specifically products from the recent past.  Right now CGL's recent past on the Shadowrun front has a rather large black eye.

Does this mean I'm personally going to stop buying Shadowrun products?  Near term, yes actually, but that's as much because money is tight as anything else.  I was really looking forward to the crunch sections of WAR! and had planned on largely ignoring the story part of the book even before it came out.  Now that it is out in PDF we've all heard about the number of problems it has and I'm on the fence about buying it before we get some word on some sort of fix on the errors.  I'm not a Shadowrun oldtimer, so I have less of a problem with regards to the continuity errors that apparently exist, largely because the only reason I know about them is other people's complaints.  I'd just like to see good quality work without massive quantities of obvious mistakes.

I think that's really all most of us would like to see from this thread.

Critias

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« Reply #13 on: <12-30-10/0058:57> »
The issue of the leak is more than just that there's a leak (though that's bad enough).  There's a scribd.com user that's been posting some private conversations, some Shadowrun writer chat transcripts, some of Ancient History's unpublished work (though that, at least, with permission I'd assume), some project specs for upcoming books (the general outline that the line developer posts to the writer pool), some private freelancer brainstorming posts...and, now, apparently, also published work in pdf form. 

We've got people already trashing an upcoming product that no one's even started on yet, just because they didn't like the look of the project spec.  None of us have even sent in proposals to say what sections we'd like to write, and it's already getting trashed and insulted.

More troubling than just the fact we've got a leak, and that some documents are being seen before they're necessarily finished (or without someone paying them, which hurts the game in the long term)...the problem is the atmosphere this brings.

This filehost account had a document on it that was part of a freelancer brainstorming conversation, for instance, where someone pitched out an idea to see what people thought.  The idea got posted to scribd, and it got torn apart pretty harshly by the usual bunch of critics out there.  What didn't get posted was feedback from other freelancers about the idea, changes to the idea, whether or not anyone even liked the idea, what book it might go into, or anything else like that.  Someone essentially said "Hey, wouldn't _____ be cool?" and it got posted to the 'net to be shredded as though it were a finished product.  No one looks at the chunks of chicken bone and skin that ooze out of a blender and expects that unfinished product to look or taste as awesome as their Chicken McNuggets, but for some reason an unfinished brainstorming session (one with only a single post, in fact) can be treated as though it were the next CGL Shadowrun book to hit shelves.

Now, imagine you're a freelancer.  After something like that happens, you finish writing a rough draft for a chapter for an upcoming product.

Do you want to post that chapter to the fileshare or the freelancer group that's got a leak, or do you want to email it privately to the Shadowrun line developer?

If you post it to the group in order to let other freelancers read over it, share their thoughts, make sure you're all using the same voice for various Jackpointers, to put extra eyes on it for proofing and basic typos, to let your would-be peers read it to see that you're all on the same metaphorical page, and to share with them the basic look and feel and voice and vibe of your chapter...you're opening yourself up to have this rough draft show up on a free fileshare site, where people can and will read this first draft, post links to it on popular SR forums, and tear apart your rough draft without ever giving it a chance to get published in a book. 

If you email it privately to the line developer, it's much more secure...but now there's that much extra work falling onto just the layout/editing folks, because the other ten or twelve freelancers aren't reading each other's work, sharing ideas as openly, and generally coordinating the way they'd like to.

I'm not saying that's what happened to War!, because I don't know.  I wasn't involved in that project in any way (I got into the freelancer pool well after its chapters were already assigned, writing was already done, all that good stuff), myself.  I wasn't in the group, seeing the conversations, as it was being worked on, so I'm not trying to say that that's what happened to it, or whatever.

But I'm saying that, as we writers are moving forward with future products, that's the atmosphere we're in.  In the face of complaints about layout and proofing, communication and coordination between writers, we're being put in a position where trying to help each other proof and edit, communicate and coordinate, is something of a Catch 22.  I don't think I'm violating any sort of NDA or anything by saying so, but when the first complaints about War! came in, some of the first posts made to that freelancer group were to go ahead and share drafts for our next project.  They're posted now, and I, for one, have made several revisions based on feedback I got from other writers.  We're trying to put product quality ahead of product security, and we're just hoping that doesn't turn around and bite us in the ass (and then, naturally, about a day later there was another leak, this time of that project spec I mentioned). 

And in the meantime, the leak is one more headache for the line dev to have to deal with, along with trying to, y'know, develop the line.

And the truly maddening part is that that scribd user, who's posting this stuff...they probably think of themselves as a fan of the game, and they might even be a current freelancer, who's violating an NDA to post the stuff they're posting.  So while they're throwing these sort of obstacles into the path, they're thinking it's somehow helping the game they no doubt claim to love.
« Last Edit: <12-30-10/0134:30> by Critias »

JM_Hardy

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« Reply #14 on: <12-30-10/1204:10> »
As far as proofing issues go, the big issue is getting the production schedule in shape so that all mechanisms in place can be used. Last year threw schedules off for a lot of reasons, and recovery has not been easy. But progress is being made, and I expect more normal development processes for upcoming products.

Jason H.
Jason M. Hardy
Shadowrun Line Developer

"The thing is, I’m serious about what I do, and the people with whom I associate are serious about what they do. We’re all serious people. Look, I can even make a serious face. See?" --Quinn Bailey