[Kuirem]

I have recently picked up Shadowrun 5 and I am deep into chargen. Lately I have particularly looked at Cyberlimb and how they fit on runners and I could use an outside opinion.

Cyberlimbs

The first thing I have noticed about Cyberlimbs is that they are really not worth it for fighting oriented character. I know, the iconic Street Samurai is always represented with his double Cyberarms, but in practice it is really a waste of resources. For slighly cheaper than your two Cyberarms customized to Agility 6 (the bare minimum imo) you can get Muscle Replacement (Rating 2) which will increase your limits and also count for the rest of your body.

So when Cyberlimbs are useful? Two situations : For the Capacity, it is almost always cheaper in Essence to get a Cyberlimbs and fit it with Toys than to put them in the Flesh directly. The second is to give some fighting power to non-combat character (Decker, Face, Infiltration, Driver...).

Let's look further at the latter with an example :

Sparkle, everyone's favorite elf face, just got out of a meet with Johnson, as he gets back to his team he is attacked by a feral dog. Thanksfully he has a shiny new Colt Government 2066 ready in his holster and has time for a couple of shots before the dog gets in melee. Sparkle hasn't hit the gym much lately and will have to fight with a measly 2 STR and AGI, he has a good training in Pistols (6) so he will throw 8 dice against the dog REA + INT so 8 dice too. Basically Sparkle will flip a coin to see if he hits, not the best situation. He could use a Semi-Automatic Burst to give a -2 Defense Pool but due to his low Strength he will immediatly get a -1 Dice himself and it will be even worst with the next shot.

Now if we look at this from chargen getting from 2 AGI to 4 would cost 35 Karma, on the other hand getting a Synthetic Full Arm (he is a face so he might not want an obvious one) with 7 Agility and 4 Strength (just enough for an extra RC) cost 45 000¥ or 23 Karma. So it is a really viable solution if you can afford to spare an Essence point. The downside is that if he wants to use 2 handed weapons (such as an assault rifle) he would have to get the average between his two arms which will still gives a +3 AGI and +1 STR compared to his base stats.

So, from your experience have you ever seen a combat character using Cyberlimbs efficiently (i.e. while Muscle Replacement wouldn't have been better)?
When and why did you install a Cyberlimb on your character?
Have you ever installed a Cybertorso/Cyberskull for anything other than fluff?

Cyber Implant Weapons

Now for Cyber Implant Weapons, first I noticed that they can be installed directly into the Flesh (yuck). For a Holdout or a Light Pistol I can see it (still yuck), maybe even a Heavy Pistols in a strong Ork/Troll arm, but SMG and Shotgun in the Flesh? I can assure you that after a couple of use you will need a Cyberarms anyway chummer.

My first question is about concealment, the core rulebook mention p.458 : For extra concealment, cyberguns are built from mostly non-metallic compounds, and any metallic parts are incorporated into the (cyber) arm’s structure. But he does not give any value, how would you deal with that? A bonus equivalent to a Concealed Holster maybe? What if you have Synthetic Cyberlimbs? An Obvious Cyberlimbs will most likely be searched for Cyberguns but a Synthetic not so much. Guess it's all up to the GM but how would you do it yourself? I also doubt that a Shotgun in the Flesh has much Concealment bonus.

Second question is how would you rule the use of a Implanted Shotgun/SMG? Normally these weapon should use both arms to fire, which limit their interest to single Cyberarm character but if integrated into a Cyberarm I think you might be able to fire with only one. At least for the SMG, but for the Shotgun, do you think someone would be able to fire an integrated Shotgun without using the other arm? It would give an extra interest to invest into an integrated one then since Shotgun are pretty versatile weapons and combined with the fact that it is hidden into the arm it becomes a really powerful choice since it removes a big penalty from Shotgun : Being big and obvious.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Short and sweet; you've summed up the issues quite nicely, as cyberlimbs are rarely worth the price of admission over other augmentation options except in the case of providing capacity for other equipment.

Chrome Flesh (especially the German edition) changes this; between Redliner (+1 Agility and Strength and a net -1 condition monitor box per two limbs) and Cyber Singularity Seeker (+1 Willpower for every two cyberlimbs) coupled with the optional rule that allows cyberlimbs to affect inherent limits, cyberlimbs become an extremely viable alternative as they allow you to get to +4 (or even +5 depending on your reading) augmented attribute values for Strength and Agility from character generation.

Alternatively, by going for all cyberlimbs using the base rules you can rack up an ungodly amount of armor and condition monitor boxes, so going all chrome is a good way to build a tank.

All in all, though, I personally feel that 5th Edition lost the thread, so to speak, where cyber is concerned; I get what the writers intended with the whole "everything has a price" theme, but I think they took it too far where cyberlimbs in particular are concerned. As you say, why would you get limbs that don't affect limits when you can just buy enhanced muscles instead for the same cost and have them affect all actions without any ambiguity.

[Wakshaani]

I'm still not sure where the "Iconic Samurai has two cyberlimbs" comes from. In my personal experience, Samurai were *always* about Muscle Replacement (and later Augmentation), while a Cyberlimb was rarely seen. Those who did get them were noncombat types, like a Decker, who wanted one spun up to Agility 6 'on the cheap'.

The 'Chrome Tanks' are a different thing, and I hope one day to stamp out 'Cyber Diabetes' once and for all.

[Herr Brackhaus]

The fiction has plenty of cyberlimbs, Wakshani. Gangland type razorboys and girls sport them frequently, but runners seem to go the more expensive route of full-body enhancements.

At least in my experience, the cyberlimb is iconic, and even if it wasn't it should still be a viable alternative which, sad to say, it just isn't currently. It's far too expensive for what it does except, as you note, in the case of a Decker with a single arm to boost his shooting ability. And that, quite frankly, is just broken... My opinion only, of course.

[Medicineman]

ImO a Cyberhand or Arm (or even 2) is Iconic for Cyberpunk RPGs (including Shadowrun )
Do I have to remind you of the famous Johnny Silverhand ?
Thanks to the horrendous high Prices of Cyberware  a Cyberarm, which retains the Pricetag from 4th ed
is now an even more affordable alternative
especially if you can also use the Cyberarm for other Gimmicks like Cyberarmor, hidden Weapons or Gimmicks (like internal Comlink)
etc. you can boost STR & AGI up to 9 (with Redliner up to 11) which is ImO really High & Mighty

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Hobbes]

Cyberlimbs are in kind of a funny space.  They're either mechanically inefficient flavor picks for most characters, or silly cheesy and cause much GM eye rolling.  I have seen Melee builds with Cyberlegs for more movement and kicking damage, and the occasional Decker with a High Agility Cyber Arm.  Other than that you're either all in and chrome tanked, or its a huge investment for character flavor. 

My favorite is the Partial Cyberskull.  I wanted one for a Decker build to put a cyberdeck in, but Cyberdeck is (4), Partial Cyberskull is (4) so I was paying for a Pocket, to put in a Pocket, to put in a Cyberdeck.  It made me sad, mind you I still did it because it matched the picture I was using.  DataJacks, Commlinks and Antenna are also better off because being bought separate because of Availability/cost/quality/essence reasons. 

Really about the only thing I could figure out to do with such a thing is shove an Armor Plate in there...

Honestly base Cyberlimb costs should be low Nuyen, Essence, and Availability.  Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.  Handwave the additional Essence costs as needing more anchoring / reinforcement for the limb.

If you're just using the Cyberlimb as a really fancy bag it shouldn't really be all that expensive just for a really cool bag. 

[kyoto kid]

...I often think of how useful a third cyberarm would be in RL.  The ability  to open doors or hold a brolly, with both of your other hands full would be so bloody helpful. I could cheer and applaud when my home team scores a goal with my beer still in hand. It would be really helpful when making repairs and improvements around the home as well as housecleaning and even cooking.  While driving I could shift gears or drink my coffee and keep my two other hands on the steering wheel...

...oh the possibilities.

[Wakshaani]

Is this where I should remind everyone of the cost of a cyberlimb in 1st edition? Because that was madness.

But, yeah, I'd have loved to pretty much rebuild the execution of cyberlimbs from the ground up, but that wasn't happening for Sr5, and doing it later's a huge jerkmove, so, you know ... not today.

They're so iconic that they need to be more common and less unbalancing. Hopefully, nothing in Chrome Flesh broke them badly, but I confess that I haven't been watching many discussions on that side of things. People didn't run out and start saying that Optimized Limbs were the most broken thing ever, so that's a positive. But I don't know if anyone is using them at ALL, and that's a bad thing.

[Novocrane]

but that wasn't happening for Sr5, and doing it later's a huge jerkmove

I'd beg to differ, should it be a mechanical and thematic improvement. They're are more than a few supplements that redid things.

I'd have loved to pretty much rebuild the execution of cyberlimbs from the ground up,

I haven't bought any fifth edition material for ... quite some time, but I'd support a release containing this with dollars should it prove to be a change I agree with.
Then again, that would likely have to be part of something like 'fifth edition revised'. Or sixth edition.

[Medicineman]

>>>> Honestly base Cyberlimb costs should be low Nuyen, Essence, and Availability.  Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.

But that is exactly how Cyberlimbs are now in SR5
compared to other F****************** expensive 'ware they're quite cheap and availiable.
Essence cost is quite balanced ImO

>>>> Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.

that's exactly the Crunch right now
 +1AGI +1 STR and +1 Cyberarmor together is nearly as Much as the base Arm itself (13.000 Vs. 15.000)

 >>>> Handwave the additional Essence costs as needing more anchoring / reinforcement for the limb.

what are you writing about ?

@Wakshaani
>>>> Is this where I should remind everyone of the cost of a cyberlimb in 1st edition? Because that was madness.

I don't know about them but even if they're are deep, deep Madness
SR5'ware cost still is Madness too
(that is like comparing Kim Jong Un  to Trump and saying that Kim Jong Un is the worser Nightmare, which is surely true, but doesn't stop Trump from being a Nightmare too )

>>> But I don't know if anyone is using them at ALL, and that's a bad thing
I use them a lot
 and I come from the "Side" that likes to optimize their Chars but also consider ROLEplay to be important too !

JahtaHow
Medicineman

[Duellist_D]

I'm still not sure where the "Iconic Samurai has two cyberlimbs" comes from. In my personal experience, Samurai were *always* about Muscle Replacement (and later Augmentation), while a Cyberlimb was rarely seen. Those who did get them were noncombat types, like a Decker, who wanted one spun up to Agility 6 'on the cheap'.

Argent might want to have a word with you.

Cyberlimbs are fine if you use the optional German rule to calculate limits with them if you have 4 Cyberlimbs or stick to an Arm of awesome.

In all other cases  they usually suck, except  if you make full use of their capacity.
Usually, just sticking used muscletoner and augmentation into your body is better.
Redliner is imho a trap option the loss in condition monitors is to extreme.

[MijRai]

I've already got a few rough house-rules for cyberlimbs in place for if/when I run a Shadowrun game; cost revamping, adjustment of how they function, etc. 

[Hobbes]

>>>> Honestly base Cyberlimb costs should be low Nuyen, Essence, and Availability.  Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.

But that is exactly how Cyberlimbs are now in SR5
compared to other F****************** expensive 'ware they're quite cheap and availiable.
Essence cost is quite balanced ImO

>>>> Then the + Stat and + Armor should be higher costs.

that's exactly the Crunch right now
 +1AGI +1 STR and +1 Cyberarmor together is nearly as Much as the base Arm itself (13.000 Vs. 15.000)

 >>>> Handwave the additional Essence costs as needing more anchoring / reinforcement for the limb.

what are you writing about ?

@Wakshaani
>>>> Is this where I should remind everyone of the cost of a cyberlimb in 1st edition? Because that was madness.

I don't know about them but even if they're are deep, deep Madness
SR5'ware cost still is Madness too
(that is like comparing Kim Jong Un  to Trump and saying that Kim Jong Un is the worser Nightmare, which is surely true, but doesn't stop Trump from being a Nightmare too )

>>> But I don't know if anyone is using them at ALL, and that's a bad thing
I use them a lot
 and I come from the "Side" that likes to optimize their Chars but also consider ROLEplay to be important too !

JahtaHow
Medicineman

Cyberlimbs are actually quite expensive for the base limb that is, mechanically, a very fancy gear holder.  aka a bag.  I would prefer the base limbs to be dirt cheap.  Few thousand Nuyen, minimal essence.  Then make the + Stats, + Armor, + Move, and + Damage ect options cost additional Essence and Nuyen.

Also considering that base Cyberlimbs are actually a disadvantage to characters with good stats...  *shrug*

[Kuirem]

Also considering that base Cyberlimbs are actually a disadvantage to characters with good stats...  *shrug*

I think the cost of Customization should be scaled on the character base attributes. It should be cheaper to build a Cyberware with 5 STR for someone that has 5 STR than for someone with a weak 1 STR. Maybe half the price until you reach your own stats? Would still be expensive but feel a bit less like a Nuyen waste just to reach your base stats.

[Hobbes]

Also considering that base Cyberlimbs are actually a disadvantage to characters with good stats...  *shrug*

I think the cost of Customization should be scaled on the character base attributes. It should be cheaper to build a Cyberware with 5 STR for someone that has 5 STR than for someone with a weak 1 STR. Maybe half the price until you reach your own stats? Would still be expensive but feel a bit less like a Nuyen waste just to reach your base stats.

Endless number of ways to do it.  Even just an arbitrary Cyberlimbs have your same stats unless you spend moneys, but that doesn't quite fit with how Shadowrun has historically handled Cyberlimbs.