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Ammo

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savaze

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« on: <03-29-11/0251:28> »
That's right more late night meanders from your truly...

Do you think it would be more accurate to call APDS rounds (-4AP) Armor Piercing Frangibles, since armor piercing rounds would have a smaller damage profile, like -2p -4AP?  Armor piercing rounds don't have cavitation as the highest priority in the design process, that's where AP Frangibles and the like came from.  If APF rounds were added in they would probably be ~ +2P -2AP based on how APDS currently read...

Do you think it would be more accurate to call SR Flechette rounds (+2P +5AP) Beehive rounds or shot?  IRL, Flechette rounds could more accurately be put into the APFSDS category (Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot - more accurate APDS), or vice versa.  Flechette rounds are innately armor piecing, but are commonly mixed up with beehive rounds which came about from vietnam soldiers snipping the heads off nails and making anti-personnel shotgun and 40mm rounds.  There are rounds that have emerged a few years back that are hybrid beehive/flechette that are being marketed as flechette rounds, which are closer to what's depicted in SR.  So far the only weapon I know of that still fires real flechette are tanks (ADFSDS) and the Steyr ACR.  You would think Armor-Piercing Flechettes (+2P) would be a true flechette, but in fact it falls more in line with the hybrid rounds that I mentioned before.  AP Flechettes make the normal flechette sound like a frangible that breaks into slivers instead of slag.

Frangible Rounds (+2AP) are more effective than what a shotgun uses (flechette)?  I'm confused doesn't a frangible round shatter on impact, even on flesh? Hollow Point Rounds (+1P +2AP) and frangibles are basically the same round with roughly the same cavitation, with Hp's having better penetration, with buckshot having even greater penetration (.30 cal x8) with smaller individual cavitations, but many more of them.

Honestly what's the difference between AV Rounds (-4/-6AP) and Anti-Tank Rounds (-6AP), one is less effective against personal armor?  Shouldn't AT Rounds have a 'caliber' limit, meaning can only be used in sniper rifles, MG's, and maybe assault cannons (to fit with the fluff text)?

Is the difference between Explosive Rounds (+1P) and EX Explosive Rounds (+1P -1AP) a single-stage versus a two-stage explosive?

Aren't Stick-n-Shock (6Se -halfAP) and Taser Dart (6/8Se -halfAP) the same round, separated by development in tech, newer vs older (same argument as cased/caseless ammo)?

Aren't Gel Rounds (+1S +2AP) just Capsule Rounds (S +2AP) with a knockdown filling?

Hi-C Plastic Rounds (norm/-1P) seem like something you would be making in the airport bathroom...

What's the Signal rating of Tracker Rounds?  Couldn't RFID Rounds easily be modded into Tracker rounds?  That would be the only purpose I would see in getting RFID rounds...

Do Sensor Rounds (+halfP +6AP) have a Signal rating or is it purely LoS with the firearm?  What kind of mods/software do you have to add to the weapon to be able to read the output from the round?  I'm guess you would have to add some select sound filter to be able to interpret noise data...

Suppression Rounds (+1AP) would also have less range if "the energy used to make all this noise takes away from the rounds’ impact on a target (War!, Pg 156)."  I understand the whole whistler concept of the round, but how does it make more noise on impact?  Does it shatter?

Silver bullets (+2AP) could have been designed better.  As they stand that's how someone who hasn't made rounds before would jumble them together.  They could be partially-jacketed, FMJ, partial cored, or completely cored and that's only just getting started with multi-metal rounds.

High-Power Rounds (+2P -1AP) are reasonably cool, but they seem like there should be limits on what can actually do the chambering, because to make some weapons magnum IRL can cost way more than the weapon itself (new frame, barrel, springs, etc).  Maybe a sliding scale where anything under the size of a rifle costs more slots and more mula.

Subsonic Ammo (+2AP) seems like it should be an option to put on a type of round, like Subsonic Hi-C Plastic Rounds (very limited range and undetectable rounds) or Subsonic Gel Rounds (quiet splatter balls)...
« Last Edit: <03-29-11/0256:59> by savaze »

CanRay

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« Reply #1 on: <03-29-11/0304:11> »
This is what happens when writers deal with firearms.   :P  I'm sure I screwed up a lot in my writing, and I'm a gun nut.

'Course, I'm also a Canadian Civvie Puke.  Even if I am from Northern Ontario, my firearms practical knowledge is limited.
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savaze

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« Reply #2 on: <03-29-11/0310:17> »
I think some was lack of knowledge and some was pure omission from trying to keep deadlines... I'm not sure anyone has ever pointed this stuff out before so that errata could be made!

CanRay

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« Reply #3 on: <03-29-11/0325:39> »
I'd be happy with cannon calibers, too.   :P
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savaze

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« Reply #4 on: <03-29-11/0625:06> »
I suppose it should also be mentioned that Capsule rounds wouldn't do very much damage to begin with.  They already exist in various forms (e.g. simunitions, etc).

Mäx

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« Reply #5 on: <03-29-11/0845:55> »
Frangible Rounds (+2AP) are more effective than what a shotgun uses (flechette)?  I'm confused doesn't a frangible round shatter on impact, even on flesh?
:o
What the frak are you talking about, frangible rounds are +2AP(damage resisted with higher of impact or ballistic armor) while flechette(and shot) rounds are +2DV +5AP(resisted with impact armor witch is often lower the ballistic armor, meaning it might only be +2 or less AP compared to normal ammo), in what world is the first one better then the latter one.

For the stuff after that, i can't really figure out what your trying to say or what's your point.
« Last Edit: <03-29-11/0852:27> by Mäx »
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savaze

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« Reply #6 on: <03-30-11/0005:23> »
I was pondering out loud about each ammo type and brought some valid questions to the table on everything, but the Hi-C Rounds...

CanRay

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« Reply #7 on: <03-30-11/0041:35> »
Explosive and EX Explosive rounds are probably different explosive charges inside the rounds.  To my non-gun/explosives knowing group, I described them as Explosive Rounds being Hollowpoints filled with Gunpowder, and EX Explosive Rounds being filled with C4, both having detonators on the tip to go off on impact.  They understood that well enough.

Kind of like a really small HEAT rounds.
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savaze

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« Reply #8 on: <03-30-11/0334:51> »
Explosive ammo is definitely not my forte, or anywhere close to 'normal.'

Maybe I should pose some of these questions on errata threads?!

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #9 on: <03-30-11/0931:39> »
Really, the only reason for having both explosive AND ex-explosive rounds is because back in first edition they already had regular explosive ammo in the core rules. In later sourcebooks they introduced weapon upgrades such as reactive triggers, extended clips, and of course a "better" version of explosive ammo, Ex-Ex.

Most of these in Second edition got folded into the base rules so that all weapons had them by default instead of having them as separate upgrades. Ex-Ex was a notable exception, and has survived to this day.


-k

CanRay

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« Reply #10 on: <03-30-11/1216:48> »
Still trying to figure out why extended magazines is a modification to the firearm...
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savaze

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« Reply #11 on: <03-30-11/1623:47> »
I remember EX-EX rounds, and I was too tired to try and remember what book they were in...

Frangibles should also probably be a 'treatment' to a round.

IRL most pistols (and shotguns) are already subsonic, meaning not firing rounds faster than 1,126 ft/s (at ground level in standard conditions).  Generally only the pistols firing certain magnums or the larger caliber hunting rounds break the sound barrier.  Does that mean that only >= Heavy Pistols (according to damage codes) can have the subsonic rounds?!

My biggest questions, that I'd really like answered, are still centered around the Sensor and Tracker rounds.  What are their full stats and required mods?  With sensor rounds it would seem like you buy hardware for your weapon and apply a software package to the hardware and not the rounds (maybe limited use software with built-in ammo checksum)...  I would also like the signal rating on Tracker rounds so I know how close my drones would have to be to call in air support!
« Last Edit: <03-30-11/1626:04> by savaze »

CanRay

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« Reply #12 on: <03-30-11/2044:47> »
9mm Parabellum is supersonic.  .45 ACP is subsonic (Barely.).  Both might be classed as heavy rounds.
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savaze

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« Reply #13 on: <03-31-11/0051:32> »
Could we get a moderator to move some of this over to errata and/or just get some official rulings... or should this all stay in the realm of speculation and house rules?

Arsenal

Frangible Rounds being a treatment for other rounds - making them antipersonnel centric (over penetration being the concern they address, where hollow points penetrate further)
Silver bullets would have a higher damage rating due to the round being harder than lead or 'environmentally safe' materials
Subsonic Ammo being a treatment - shotguns, L Pistols, tasers, etc already being subsonic
Tracker Rounds have a signal of 1, is there any way to get it higher for when off the grid or "used to track the target’s movement, home in drones or artillery fire (Arsenal Pg 35)."

SR4A

Stick-n-Shock being the same round as a Taser Dart (caseless vs cased argument)
Capsule Rounds having very low damage, not just stun

War!

Sensor Rounds needing weapon mods to interpret signal and possibly to hold a limited use sensor suite
Suppression Rounds having less range to fit with "the energy used to make all this noise takes away from the rounds’ impact on a target (War!, Pg 156)."
High-Power Rounds having a sliding scale on slots/cost due to the greater impact on reconstruction of smaller weapons

EDIT:
My wife was talking to me and some how this all got posted without being edited...
« Last Edit: <03-31-11/0127:46> by savaze »

FastJack

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« Reply #14 on: <03-31-11/0755:17> »
Since these are more house rules/player preference, we'll leave the info here. It's not errata, per se, since the discussion is about intentional mechanics mostly.

In fact, they might be more along the lines of an FAQ topic.