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Recoil comp for 2 weapon firing Options

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Jyster

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« on: <05-05-13/0845:30> »
If I'm firing 2 warhawks, single shot, and I fire in the same action phase. Are both the shots at no recoil penalties, or is the second shot at a -1?

The problem arises, when firing from 2 different weapons in the same action. All it talks about is when firing a SA weapon.

The first shot is free, so my group thinks that because its a second weapon and firing SS that the first shot for the second weapon should be free. The rules do not clarify this problem, but the rules suggest that the second shot should be 0 penalty.

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #1 on: <05-05-13/0856:07> »
Recoil is cumulative for multiple weapons.  The shot from the first gun is at no penalty, the shot from the second is at -1(recoil from the first shot).  It'd be incredibly easy to get recoil comp for 1 little point, obviously.
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #2 on: <05-05-13/0930:23> »

Baron Cow appears to be correct.

SR4A 150 (emphasis mine):
Quote
ATTACKER USING A SECOND FIREARM
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, re- quires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the small- est dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun at- tacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.


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UmaroVI

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« Reply #3 on: <05-05-13/1207:51> »
Joe, that's if you are firing both as a single simple action, but yes, mtfeeny is correct.

JoeNapalm

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« Reply #4 on: <05-05-13/1256:02> »

Ah, misinterpreted the OP.

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Jyster

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« Reply #5 on: <05-05-13/1526:11> »
Unfortunately, nowhere does it say the first shot from your second weapon is uncompensated in he same action phase.

farothel

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« Reply #6 on: <05-05-13/1611:44> »
Put a personalised grip on both for 100 nuyen each and your recoil problem is solved.
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ZeConster

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« Reply #7 on: <05-05-13/1628:54> »

Baron Cow appears to be correct.

SR4A 150 (emphasis mine):
Quote
ATTACKER USING A SECOND FIREARM
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, re- quires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the small- est dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun at- tacks also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights. Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon.
I thought that rule meant that if you fire a Long Burst with two SMGs at the same time, and one has RC 4 while the other has RC 3, the uncompensated recoil modifiers (-1 and -2) get added to both weapons, giving recoil -3 on both weapons, done after the splitting of the dice pool. I don't read that rule as saying "you get 1 extra recoil on the 'second' weapon you fire at the same time".

UmaroVI

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« Reply #8 on: <05-05-13/1843:56> »
Huh, actually, after rereading:

RAW, SS weapons can't get recoil.

It is ambiguous whether
Quote
Semi-automatic mode
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each
shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the
second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil
compensation can cancel out this modifier

means "the first shot from this gun" or the first shot of the action phase, regardless of which gun it comes from.

I think it is actually the first. So if you dual-wield BF weapons, both first shots are -2 recoil and both second shots are -3 recoil.

The rule JN quoted says that uncompensated recoil applies to everything. So if you have 2 RC per gun, and you dual-wield firing BF/BF, then BF/BF, the first pair of shots are at no RC penalty (2-2=0 on both), and the second pair are at -6 each (5-2=3, each applies the penalty to both weapons).

mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #9 on: <05-05-13/1856:05> »
Huh, actually, after rereading:

RAW, SS weapons can't get recoil.

It is ambiguous whether
Quote
Semi-automatic mode
Guns that fire in semi-automatic mode can be fired twice in the same Action Phase. Each
shot requires a Simple Action and a separate attack test. The first shot is unmodified; the
second shot, if fired in that same Action Phase, takes a –1 recoil dice pool modifier. Recoil
compensation can cancel out this modifier
means "the first shot from this gun" or the first shot of the action phase, regardless of which gun it comes from.

I think it is actually the first. So if you dual-wield BF weapons, both first shots are -2 recoil and both second shots are -3 recoil.

The rule JN quoted says that uncompensated recoil applies to everything. So if you have 2 RC per gun, and you dual-wield firing BF/BF, then BF/BF, the first pair of shots are at no RC penalty (2-2=0 on both), and the second pair are at -6 each (5-2=3, each applies the penalty to both weapons).

I think you may be on to something, but I don't agree with your example.  It definitely says uncompensated recoil from one gun is applied to the other.  In your example, the first gun fires a short burst.  This normally causes -2 recoil, but you have 2 RC.  That's 0 recoil passed to the second gun.  It fires, racking up -2 recoil, but it compensates for this.  Then the first gun fires again, this time going up to -5 recoil.  The 2 RC drops it to -3, and this is uncompensated recoil.  The second gun fires, earning -5 for itself PLUS -3 uncompensated from the other gun.  So that's -8 reduced by 2 RC to -6 total.  The 4 shots are at -0/-0/-3/-6.

I don't see how this says dual SS guns don't have to deal with recoil.  If the first gun doesn't have any RC, that -1 recoil is uncompensated and is passed to the second.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #10 on: <05-05-13/1929:34> »
Under those interpretations, you're really starting to make little sense with the recoil rules. So you're saying compensated Recoil won't matter, while uncompensated recoil will? But if I fire a revolver, that first shot is compensated due to it giving no recoil. Also, it makes little sense that firing two identical weapons at the same time would cause 1 of them to have heavier recoil.

"Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon." To me this sounds like "you're firing without full recoil compensation with one hand, and the toughness to keep that gun under control also affects the accuracy with your other gun, and vice versa." But each weapon still has its own recoil compensation that determines how easy it is to control the weapon. Only when your accuracy starts suffering do both attacks begin to suffer. So fire 2 SA guns without RC once at the same time, no problem. Fire them again and the kick makes it harder to aim right, especially with a double kick. So the -1+-1 on each attack means you now lose two dice on each attack.

Here's another important detail on Recoil:
SR4a p152: Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a -1 dice pool modifer for the second shot only. Burst-fire weapons receive a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and -3 for the second. Long bursts suffer -5 (first burst in phase) or -6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer -9 recoil.

Note that the generic rule here is that recoil is per weapon. The specific dual-wielding rule then says that uncompensated recoil from each weapon fired simultaneous applies to all weapons being fired in the same Simple Action. But until you get uncompensated recoil, there's no problem, and this only applies when firing multiple guns in the same Simple action. When you start getting uncompensated recoil, here's what happens:

Say I got 2 SMGs with 4 RC each (the max for surpressed HK-227Xs). I got a Dicepool of 8 Agility + 6 Automatics and a specialty in SMGs. I split my 14 dicepool 6/8, subtract the off-hand penalty for 6/6, then add the specialty to each for 8/8. I fire a short burst with each, which at 2 Recoil and 4 RC is fully compensated.
Then I fire both again, once more with short bursts. Splitting would end me at 8/8 before recoil. Now I got 1 uncompensated recoil on each SMG, which combines to 1+1 and 1+1, so 8-2/8-2 ends me at 6 dice for each shot.

Now say I got Shiva Arms and 4 SMGs. Splitting would go 2/4/4/4, meaning I end up with 4/4/4/4 after specialty and off-hand penalties enter the game. The first burst with each goes fine. But then I fire again. I end up with 1 uncompensated recoil per gun, which stacks up to four times that! Now I got 4 Recoil Penalty on each attack, meaning I'm left with exactly 0 dice for each of the four attacks... If I want even a chance of hitting, I'll have to add my Edge to the pre-splitting dicepool for, at an Edge of 4, 1 dice per attack... Or I play it smart and only fire 2 of them in the second Simple Action, landing me at that 6/6 mentioned before.

- - -

That also brings me back to OP's question: Since you are firing 1 SS weapon in your first Simple Action, then another in your second Simple Action, you do not suffer from recoil since each weapon only has 1 round leaving it in that one Action Phase. And similarly, if you have poorly-compensated SMGs, you can fire one with your one hand, then fire the second with your other hand and avoid the recoil.
Of course you suffer an off-hand penalty unless Ambidextrous, and you don't have a spare hand available to reload so would need to drop one weapon before you can reload the other. Not to mention being detected faster due to carrying more weapons on you and being remembered faster by people.
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mtfeeney = Baron

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« Reply #11 on: <05-05-13/1947:48> »
Also, it makes little sense that firing two identical weapons at the same time would cause 1 of them to have heavier recoil.
I don't agree.  It's not about recoil shoving your gun off track, but the other one staying true.  The bullet fires, you take a penalty to trying to aim it straight.  If you have an assault rifle bucking in your right hand, kicking madly...  Do you think you can concentrate on firing a pistol in your other hand without penalty?  An impossible situation, but it exaggerates the situation to demonstrate what I mean.  The uncompensated recoil throws YOU off.  It's a penalty to you hitting, not a penalty to the gun's accuracy.

"Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon." To me this sounds like "you're firing without full recoil compensation with one hand, and the toughness to keep that gun under control also affects the accuracy with your other gun, and vice versa." But each weapon still has its own recoil compensation that determines how easy it is to control the weapon. Only when your accuracy starts suffering do both attacks begin to suffer. So fire 2 SA guns without RC once at the same time, no problem. Fire them again and the kick makes it harder to aim right, especially with a double kick. So the -1+-1 on each attack means you now lose two dice on each attack.
Now it seems like we're saying the same thing.  Maybe I picture this wrong, but you don't actually fire both guns at the exact same time.  I've tried this in real life... one gun always goes off first.  That's why the recoil from the "first" gun is less.  You're less destabilized.

Here's another important detail on Recoil:
SR4a p152: Weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase suffer from an escalating recoil modifier as the rounds leave the weapon. Semi-automatic weapons that fire a second shot receive a -1 dice pool modifer for the second shot only. Burst-fire weapons receive a -2 recoil modifier for the first burst fired in that Action Phase and -3 for the second. Long bursts suffer -5 (first burst in phase) or -6 recoil (second). Full auto bursts suffer -9 recoil.

Note that the generic rule here is that recoil is per weapon. The specific dual-wielding rule then says that uncompensated recoil from each weapon fired simultaneous applies to all weapons being fired in the same Simple Action. But until you get uncompensated recoil, there's no problem, and this only applies when firing multiple guns in the same Simple action. When you start getting uncompensated recoil, here's what happens:

Say I got 2 SMGs with 4 RC each (the max for surpressed HK-227Xs). I got a Dicepool of 8 Agility + 6 Automatics and a specialty in SMGs. I split my 14 dicepool 6/8, subtract the off-hand penalty for 6/6, then add the specialty to each for 8/8. I fire a short burst with each, which at 2 Recoil and 4 RC is fully compensated.
Then I fire both again, once more with short bursts. Splitting would end me at 8/8 before recoil. Now I got 1 uncompensated recoil on each SMG, which combines to 1+1 and 1+1, so 8-2/8-2 ends me at 6 dice for each shot.
I'm with you up until the math at the end.  I think it'd be one shot at 7 and one shot at 6.

That also brings me back to OP's question: Since you are firing 1 SS weapon in your first Simple Action, then another in your second Simple Action, you do not suffer from recoil since each weapon only has 1 round leaving it in that one Action Phase. And similarly, if you have poorly-compensated SMGs, you can fire one with your one hand, then fire the second with your other hand and avoid the recoil.
Of course you suffer an off-hand penalty unless Ambidextrous, and you don't have a spare hand available to reload so would need to drop one weapon before you can reload the other. Not to mention being detected faster due to carrying more weapons on you and being remembered faster by people.
Firing a bullet causes -1 recoil.  SA or SS, it causes -1 recoil.  SS can't normally fire twice in an action phase, so it isn't mentioned.... but it IS there.  That -1(if uncompensated) would apply to the second gun.

Is the OP saying he fires one gun as a simple action, then fires the other?  Or he's firing both guns in a simple action, then both again as another simple action?
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: <05-05-13/2012:13> »
Actually, technically in Shadowrun you fire simultaneous with both weapons when dual-wielding. Which means you can't just go "oh, the first shot kills him? Second shot is at another guy then". Anyway:

Since he's firing Single-Shots, we're basically talking firing Ruger Warhawk Main Hand with Simple Action 1, then firing Ruger Warhawk Off-Hand with Simple Action 2. Which is basically the cheap way of packing a heavy punch while avoiding the Single-Shot limitation and without having to split your dicepool and lose smartgun benefits.

And like I said, the recoil rules mention that the recoil is per weapon. It doesn't say "if you fire more than one round in an Action Phase you suffer from an escalating recoil modifier", it says "weapons that fire more than one round in an Action Phase".

If the assault rifle in my right hand kicks madly, the pistol can't be fired without penalty no. That's exactly what the rules say: Uncompensated recoil applicable to one weapon also apply to the other. Note it doesn't say "applicable to the first gun you fire of the two, also apply to the second you fire of the two", it says "applicable to one weapon also apply to the other weapon". You fire them at the same time so if you get hit with uncompensated recoil by weapon A, that means you also get an extra penalty on weapon B. And if at the same time that pistol's kicking because it's my second shot with an uncompensated pistol, that kick on weapon B will also give me a penalty on weapon A. But if the SMG in one hand can handle 3 bullets just fine thanks to its gas-vent 2 during Simple Action 1, then the SMG in the other hand won't have a problem firing its own 3 bullets in Simple Action 2.
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Jyster

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« Reply #13 on: <05-05-13/2017:02> »
What I'm talking about is dual wielding warhawks and splitting dice and firing the same simple action.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: <05-05-13/2025:38> »
In that case I'd note two things.

1: Given how recoil is per weapon as far as I can read it, I don't think you get hit by recoil.
2: Why not fire one per simple Action? You still only get 2 shots off in the same IP, and this way you don't split the dicepool and still get the +1/+2 from lasersight/smartgun.
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