Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: anchoress on <12-28-15/1907:28>
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Hey guys!
After playing for a year now i have to admit, that my first character build was not as good as i thought - or at least not as good for the group i am playing in. To take a look at my character, you can read this thread here:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19248.msg343057#msg343057
TL;DR I played a stealth adept with some combat abilities.
Our team looks like this:
- elf combat mage (combat spells [+healing and the inititative booster], spirit summoning, driving skills)
- human decker (LOG 9 [Ware] and high skill values in decker and stealth skills)
- orc street sam (again, nothing special, big guns and heavy armor)
- human cybersam (cyberlimbs, close combat specialist)
- I've heard about a shaman maybe joining in the future
My char had increased reflexes, an initiative of 11+4d6 (= 25 on average), a chameleon suit (9 armor) and an HK Urban Combat (Dmg 10, AP -1 [APDS ammunition]). Shooting with 12 dice seemed decent (AGI 6, Automatics 4, Smartlink 2), defending with 11 as well (Agile Defender not included). In the end i had to face the fact that my damage was way to low to hurt (or the armor piercing value.. or both), and that 9 armor is not nearly enough to survive a firefight.
Allright, i don't HAVE to fight all the time. I can go sneaking, right? Yeah... not really. Actually, the decker is always faster than my character in opening doors and security systems. And so we just went in some buildings side by side, me walking besides the decker, watching her doing all the work, rolling some tests and being useless. It wouldn't have made any difference if my character would have been somewhere else. Okay, one time i picked her up and "glued" us under the ceiling with hanging time until the guard has passed by. But this was a special thing, nothing to talk about after a couple evenings of doing nothing important at all.
So after a year of almost doing nothing i think it is time to face the facts: I need a new character.
TL;DR What to add to a combat summoner mage driver, a stealth decker and 2 street sams (1 ranged, 1 cc)? Before you scream "FACE", please keep in mind i have almost no knowledge about the world in Shadowrun and only 1 year of experience. Maybe it would be possible for me, but i don't really want to invest (again) a lot of time reading into all of the cons, gangs, etc. just to recognize that the caracter is not useful at all.
Ah, we are playing karma system, currently at a value of ~950 points and every team member has earned something around 150k-200k nuyen. Swat armor, ares alpha, ruger warhawk, apds ammunition - all of these are normal things for the group. Dice pools of 15-20 are standard as well. Really, i'm no min-maxer at all so i desperately need some help here :-\
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I can certainly understand not wanting to be the face. The basics are covered, so I guess the question here, is what do YOU want to play? We can certainly help you build it
Stealth?
Combat?
Utility?
Rigger?
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Rigger wheelman is a great option.
Or go sam-life B&E sniper/support. Sure, the decker can open the doors, but can he go through a ventilation shaft to check things out or set up a flanking maneuver?
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The basics are covered, so I guess the question here, is what do YOU want to play? We can certainly help you build it
Thanks a lot :) Actually, this is hard for me to answer. Because I'm more the player who thinks about a good story and background and creates a character out of that. In fanatasy rpgs i don't play the knight in shining armor with a fency two-handed sword and charge ability, but the wandering smith who got trained by his uncle to use a sword, with the dream to have his own home one day and bad luck with women ( just as an example - i think you get the point).
In Shadowrun - or at least my player group - this is hard to do, because i will end up with a jack of all trades and/or street level character again while everyone else is min-maxing. So let me answer your question from another perspective: i won't play every weekend. Actually we will play ~6 times/year. So the easier the character rules the better. And: when our mage and decker are acting in astral plane/matrix it takes time. A lot of time. So, when they do their actions and rolls it uses up 10-15 minutes. When it was my turn i was like "i run from a to b". And waited for another 15 minutes. If there is a character role, that is actually able to DO something USEFUL for a group like this before or at a run, i will be happy. And the icing on the cake would be the possibility to be a factor in combats. I don't know if i'm asking for the swiss army knife here, but can you think of some char concept matching this conditions?
From what i see with my (limited) knowledge:
Stealth is done by our decker.
Combat is done by our mage and 2 sams.
Utility sounds fun. I like it to be a support player, but I'm afraid to do nothing except casting 1-2 spells and staying in the back of the van...?
Rigger sounds like a lot of rules... and i don't have the new book.
Sure, the decker can open the doors, but can he go through a ventilation shaft to check things out or set up a flanking maneuver?
Hi Whiskey! Yep, he did. A lot of stealth dice and points in demolitions did the thing here :-\ This is one of the main reasons i will stop playing my character. Being just a worse version of someone else (at least matching the results) is no fun at all.
And: "sam-life B&E sniper/support" - I know what this stuff means except the "-life" and the "/support" part ;) Would you mind to explain this char concept to me? Sorry, I'm not as experienced with SR as i would like to be :-\
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In terms of raw powergaming I think that a mage is a best force multiplyer for a team if that's what you're asking. You can specialise in debuffs or overpowered spirit summoning. A face is a close second, easily rivaling a mage just because you always know a right guy when needed, or at least you can meet and befriend the right guy. And nothing prevents you from being both a face and a magician.
But what do you really want to do?
1 year of experience is surely enough to learn how things are at your table and that is what matters most, not just some abstract knowledge of the lore. Speaking of which, while YOU may not know something, your CHARACTER might have the knowledge. That's why we have knowledge skills right?
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But what do you really want to do?
1 year of experience is surely enough to learn how things are at your table and that is what matters most, not just some abstract knowledge of the lore. Speaking of which, while YOU may not know something, your CHARACTER might have the knowledge. That's why we have knowledge skills right?
I know, i know. But... this leads to this really awkward situations:
Player: "I talk to him."
GM: " Okay, what do you say?"
Player: "I don't know, i talk about topic X, i have a knowledge skill for it. And i want to roll a subsequent con test."
I have no problem in doing this with some hardware/electronics/shooting stuff. Players don't have to have a masters degree in science to play a decker, but it's still a roleplaying game... if you don't talk your way through conversations, it's all about rolling dice. I would feel bad playing like this. I can maybe talk, i play rpgs for almost 25 years now, but i know almost nothing about the world... i would feel like abusing the system and putting my mates in an uncomfortable situation. So i rather want to avoid that.
And about what i want: I can create a character around a concept, I don't really care. Right now i'm just searching for some input to find a concept that let's me feel useful. I don't want to hear the GM saying "Sorry you couldn't make it to the last run. But, to be honest, your character really isn't any help for the group at all, right?" again... -.-
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"Sorry you couldn't make it to the last run. But, to be honest, your character really isn't any help for the group at all, right?"
...ouch
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"Sorry you couldn't make it to the last run. But, to be honest, your character really isn't any help for the group at all, right?"
...ouch
Yep. Don't get me wrong, i like all the people in my player group, but i feel a bit lost right now. I've send the GM a few ideas about my actual character, like "She wants to take her little sister to her family in japan, because it got too dangerous in Seattle." Her sister is 16 years old, living at a boarding school for 5k ny/month and the main reason my character went into the shadows - to pay the bills! The Draco Foundation owes me one and i saved up around 120k nuyen. In the last run we pissed off some critical politicians in seattle and had some assassins going after us. In my opinion this could be the start for a nice, one-evening run with some team mates, some critical damsel-in-distress situations, action and tension. I got the answer "I don't really see this working. Maybe you can make a run in Japan to get back into your family and ask your mates to help you out?"
*shrug*
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I still say go with Face. It's the one thing your team really doesn't have, so you'll have plenty of time to shine. If you have to take 15-20 seconds to come up with a convincing lie so you can roll con, so be it. I'm sure the mage and decker sometimes have to think about what they want to do and evaluate their options, you shouldn't suffer as a player if your character has more skills than you.
Everyone has to start somewhere; I had a lot of fun playing a Face my first time, but I also had a group that was supportive of my growth as I wasn't particularly fast on my feet at the time. *shrugs* Just my two cents, based on the composition of the existing group.
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I still say go with Face.
Allright, I'll give it a try (at least building one). Any idea what type of build would also be good in combat, so i'm not just a walking pile of charisma? Troll-Face maybe? Or a mage-face? Have to look up some builds, i guess.
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Hi Whiskey! Yep, he did. A lot of stealth dice and points in demolitions did the thing here :-\ This is one of the main reasons i will stop playing my character. Being just a worse version of someone else (at least matching the results) is no fun at all.
...good god. :\
And: "sam-life B&E sniper/support" - I know what this stuff means except the "-life" and the "/support" part ;) Would you mind to explain this char concept to me? Sorry, I'm not as experienced with SR as i would like to be :-\
OK, my phone changed "lite" to "life," hence some confusion. What I would mean is a third shoot character, who is also good at B&E. However, you just confirmed that traditional B&E is pretty much unnecessary with your group - though that is an issue you may want to raise with the GM in an OOC fashion, who really should not brush it off. It's really his job to not let the decker steal the show with that and do everything if you had a legit infiltrator.
That said, I dunno. At this point, with what you've said, I'd go rigger/wheelman, use micro drones for intel and bugging places, gunnery support with a Bumblebee or Rotodrone + sniper rifle.
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I still say go with Face.
Allright, I'll give it a try (at least building one). Any idea what type of build would also be good in combat, so i'm not just a walking pile of charisma? Troll-Face maybe? Or a mage-face? Have to look up some builds, i guess.
Troll Face is doable, but if everyone else is minmaxing it'll be a challenge.
As nearly everything a face does is based on Charisma, it's one of the easiest archetypes to add a secondary focus to. You'll want higher willpower to maintain your composure and resist other people's social tests, and you might want to check with your GM how he feels about Leadership. The latter can be a great way to boost your team mates actions if the GM is lenient about its usage, but is very dependant on GM interpretation.
I'd personally invest in some language and knowledge skill, some nice clothing and concealable firearms, maybe a bit of medical on the side just in case, but this all kind of depends on the table.
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I still say go with Face.
Allright, I'll give it a try (at least building one). Any idea what type of build would also be good in combat, so i'm not just a walking pile of charisma? Troll-Face maybe? Or a mage-face? Have to look up some builds, i guess.
i would/ like to combo faces with disguise ability for impersonation. Adept or mysad
Focusing on disguise/palming/influence/acting/spellcasting/ perc
Use adept powers for con/disguise
For mysad
Magic a
Attributes b
Skills c
Meta
Bod 3
Str 1
Agil 2
Reaction 3
Charisma 8
Intuition 5
Will 3
Log 3
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Okay, so, I took a look at your character breakdown in the link.
Going from Infiltration Adept to Combat Face Adept
Instead of reworking all the Karma costs, I just "swapped" things of equal value, so it should be the same.
It takes you away from Stealth Insertion, but leaves you a few sneaky skills, and puts you squarely in the Face + Combat field.
Human
- Adept
- Skills: Automatics, Unarmed: Aikido
- Powers: Improved Reflexes, Hang Time
BOD 2 3
AGI 6 5
REA 3 4
STR 4 2
CHA 4 6
INT 5 4
LOG 5 2
WIL 2 5
EDG 2
MAG 6
830 --> 355 Karma left
Positive Qualities:
Acrobatic Defender
Catlike
Double Jointed Jack of All trades.
Mentor Spirit (Dog) Dragonslayer / Peacemaker / Raven
Natural Athlete 1st Impression
Negative Qualities:
Addiction (moderate) (BTLs)
Dependant (demanding) (little sister)
355 --> 344 Karma left
Skills:
Assensing 1
Automatics 4 Perception
Computer 3 Impersonation
Escape Artist 1
Etiquette 3
Free-Fall 3 Palming
Gymnastics 6 Automatics
Hardware 3 (Maglock) Unarmed-Aikido
Locksmith 6 (Maglock) Negotiation-Bargaining
Negotiation 2 Running
Palming 1 Disguise
Perception 3 Gymnastics
Pilot Ground Craft 1
Running 2 (Urban) Leadership-Rally
Sneaking 6 (Urban) Con-Fasttalk
Throwing Weapons 1 Arcana
Unarmed 2 (Aikido) Sneaking (Urban)
344 --> 75 Karma left
Knowledge Skills:
Area Knowledge: Seattle 2
English N
Japanese 2
Security Design 3
Sprawl Life 3
75 --> 53 Karma left
Limits:
Physical 6 4
Mental 6 5
Social 6 8
Astral 6
Martial Arts:
Aikido + Counterstrike
53 --> 46 Karma left
Adept Powers:
Freefall 2 x 0,25 Motion Sense
Hang Time 1 x 0,25
Improved Reflexes 3 = 3,50
Improved Sense (Scent) (free) No
Improved Sense (Touch) (free) No
Light Body 2 x 0,25 Combat Sense-1
Nimble Fingers 0,25 Quickness Boost-1
Traceless Walk 1,00 YES, or if Free from Raven = Melanin Control + Authoritative Tone
Gear:
A lot, total price (including a low life style) is around 50.000 Nuyen... important:
Qi Focus 4 (Astral Perception)
Qi Focus 2 (Wall Running) Heightened Concern (Concentration)
46 --> 8 Karma left
I think it will be a bit meaner in combat while filling a role that the team is lacking and give you something to do & shine at it.
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I agree with Herr B Face Focus Adept some decent combat would be solid. What method of generation did you guys use the first time?
I'd run Elf, Max Cha, some decent resources, a really nice suit, a nice car, Max negotiation, use clubs w/ a weapon focus stun baton, normal face adept tricks. Sounds like you will probably be a little combat light for this team, but keeping it simple with a Stun Baton's Electrical damage and Armor Pen and you should see some decent through put.
Should certainly have
Club (baton) 6 +2
Con (Fast talk) 6 +2
Negotiation (Contracts) 6 +2
Run 20 dice for body and armor.
Push your S-Limit to 10+
And freaking HUGE Rolodex of contacts. I'd recommend familiarizing yourself very closely with the uses and rules of contacts, and come up with a long list of them. Good contacts can really bring a face to life.
As to your generation issue may I suggest Greater Characters should have Great Builds to match them.
Be a closer! Only drink cucumber water. Own a nice car but never drive it personally. Keep your stun baton up one sleeve and a loaded Cred stick up the other. Suit+Over Coat, haute couture only! Have a taser dongle on your comm-link just in case! Have couple solid catch phrases or themed jokes. Schmooze always. Go to clubs as part of leg work. Talk about Politics! You are always one Commlink call away from the Solution to any problem.
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They use karmagen guys.
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As a Face you don't need to go Fast make sure you have near max edg so you can go early if the situation warrants.
Adept Face.... 1 rank in Facial Sculpt and you're got a quick disguise (it's one quarter of one PP)
3 Ranks Authoritative Tone
1 Rank Combat Sense- because no one likes being surprised.
Depending how your GM rules it: ultrasound (or motion sense if he doesn't allow ultrasound)
That's 2.5 PP, so you can use Commanding Voice and 1 rank Imp Reflexes.
Elechtrochromatic Mod on your clothing to go with the Facial sculpt...you're a lover, not a fighter..better to blend in and live to fight another day.
Con and Negotiations maxed w/specialization
Leadership if your GM doesn't blows his gasket at you boosting the party members.
And finally, be a cheese...alpha fingertip compartment (it's already -10conceal, alpha should bring it to -12 but ask your GM) w/monowhip. Let them pat you down for them guns, who needs it. Of course my friend has this Face who has chemical gland and just 'kisses' people to death as it were.
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...while adept powers are nice, you end up usually having to sacrifice resoruces or metatype. 5,000¥ won't even get you a decent fake SIN (and a Face needs several "throwaways" as well as their primary one just to get on in life). You'll also want a couple sets of high fashion armoured clothing (several types add bonuses to your social limit and even social pools as well as stack with other armoured clothing by the same maker) high quality regular clothing, and at least a medium lifestyle.
Besides a high Charisma, a decent Willpower is very helpful for when someone else with the same skills uses the on you (and it will happen) as well as it figures into Composure. A good Intuition is also helpful as it figures into Social Limit, Initiative, and Judge Intentions.
Going Mundane (as I did) also gives you better starting resources while allowing you to take advantage of implants like Tailored Pheromones. (which add 1d6 to influence skill tests and +1 to your social limit per rating) and some kind of initiative boosting (I opted for the Synaptic Acceleration genemod) for when combat does break out. Also don't rule out combat drugs like Cram which adds another 1D6 and +1 to initiative when out on the job and has a low addiction threshold (another good reason to have a high Willpower). 3D6 is pretty good for most characters and could actually keep you from getting shot even if you're the type that dives for cover when the lead starts flying.
One Positive Quality to take is trustworthy as it adds 1D6 to your influence skill pools and increases your Social Limit in situations where trust is important (like negotiating a better payout) by 2. Another good Quality is Too Pretty to Hit which allows you to add your Charisma instead of Willpower when using the full defence option (this has saved my character's bacon a number of times).
Concealed weapons are best so I would at least take Pistols skill with a specialisation in Semiautomatics (that covers pretty much all pistols save for revolvers, one model Taser, and a couple hold outs) giving you an extra 2 dice to the pool. Getting a holdout or light pistol loaded with drug/toxin capsule rounds is not a bad idea (my choice is the Ares Lightfire 75 as it has a built in silencer and is fairly easy to conceal).
For a second skill focus, Bitotech (First Aid) wouldn't be bad to have provided the character has a decent Logic. Keep in mind, a medkit also augments the dice pool by its rating. Another possible way is to go the Covert/B & E route by picking up skills like Lockpicking and Sneaking along with knowledge in Security Systems.
Oh yes, and languages, the more the character knows, the more effective he/she is.
The Face Character I have was built with the following priorities:
Attributes - A (24)
Resources - B (275,000¥)
Skills - C (28 General/2 Skill Group)
Metatype - D (Elf)
Magic - D (Mundane)
Starting attributes:
BOD: 4
AGI: 5
REA: 4
STR: 2 (10 Karma)
CHA: 8
INT: 5
LOG:3
WIL: 5
EDG: 2 (10 Karma)
Pretty much all her augmentations save for her Smartlink, are bioware and genemods to keep the Essence cost low as Essence reduction also affects Social Limit (which for her is 12).
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I believe they using Karma generation method
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And finally, be a cheese...alpha fingertip compartment (it's already -10conceal, alpha should bring it to -12 but ask your GM) w/monowhip. Let them pat you down for them guns, who needs it. Of course my friend has this Face who has chemical gland and just 'kisses' people to death as it were.
...had a covert ops character with the Chemical Gland implant back in 3rd ed. Back then it also granted you immunity to the chemical it produced.
In Stolen Souls there is also Laced Lipstick which can be used to transfer a toxin.
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I believe they using Karma generation method
...oopsie, forgot that.
The character I outlined was for Missions play and at the time we could only use the basic Priority system.
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I believe they using Karma generation method
...oopsie, forgot that.
The character I outlined was for Missions play and at the time we could only use the basic Priority system.
Personally, I like Life Modules over Karma Gen- but to each his own
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They use karmagen guys.
:\ That's gonna make it harder.
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They use karmagen guys.
:\ That's gonna make it harder.
Which makes me wonder how the other characters are so good that a 14DP with automatics is totally irrelevant. Aim + FA 6 rounds: They take -5 Defense. +1 DP and at least 4 Recoil compensated with a 1 STR so you have at least 13 DP and this is irrelevant...is every mook they meet a Red Samurai?A 13 Defense with the -5 requires an avg of 6 in REA+WIL+whatever stat they use for Full Defense.
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...base defence is INT + REA. WIL is added to that when going Full Defence.
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...base defence is INT + REA. WIL is added to that when going Full Defence.
I'm old, not senile...
REA+WIL+whatever stat they use for Full Defense.
Not everyone use WIL for full defense.
Elves are often Agile Defenders or Too Pretty To Hit.
Well, maybe I' senile sometimes, just not this time :)
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Actually, the decker is always faster than my character in opening doors and security systems. And so we just went in some buildings side by side, me walking besides the decker, watching her doing all the work, rolling some tests and being useless. It wouldn't have made any difference if my character would have been somewhere else.
TL;DR What to add to a combat summoner mage driver, a stealth decker and 2 street sams (1 ranged, 1 cc)? Before you scream "FACE"
Elven Technomancer Face conjure up sprites to run diagnostics on your deckers cyberdeck/teams vehicle and you can even clear their overwatch score so they dont have to reboot all the time
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Wow, thanks for all the responses, guys! Sorry for the late answer, was late in europe and i had to sleep a few hours. I will try and answer all your posts now. Will be a long one. Sorry in advance!
and you might want to check with your GM how he feels about Leadership. The latter can be a great way to boost your team mates actions if the GM is lenient about its usage, but is very dependant on GM interpretation.
True, good idea. I will ask him. I think one of the sams was also curious about it.
i would/ like to combo faces with disguise ability for impersonation. Adept or mysad
Focusing on disguise/palming/influence/acting/spellcasting/ perc
Use adept powers for con/disguise
I will say this now, but it will be interesting for some more people here: One of the sams' players had a face before, but she didn't felt comfortable doing all the talking (because it isn't her thing). It was an elf adept with the typical adept powers and a monowhip. Sorry i didn't told you earlier (didn't expect as many fast responses here ^^), but it is not my intention to just "copy her character build", if you know what i mean. Would a cyberversion of a face also be viable?
Okay, so, I took a look at your character breakdown in the link.
Going from Infiltration Adept to Combat Face Adept
It takes you away from Stealth Insertion, but leaves you a few sneaky skills, and puts you squarely in the Face + Combat field.
I think it will be a bit meaner in combat while filling a role that the team is lacking and give you something to do & shine at it.
My... thanks for all the effort, mate! I hope you don't kill me saying this, but it would feel awkward for me to just make a different version of my old character. Shadowrun is a world full of fluff. If i have the possibility to pick another character, i feel like i'm missing an opportunity sticking to similar skills (like aikido specialization and such) and race. Should have given more information, i know - was a bit spontaneous for me as well to think about a face. And it was 4a.m., so... sorry :-\
I'd run Elf, Max Cha, some decent resources, a really nice suit, a nice car, Max negotiation, use clubs w/ a weapon focus stun baton, normal face adept tricks. Sounds like you will probably be a little combat light for this team, but keeping it simple with a Stun Baton's Electrical damage and Armor Pen and you should see some decent through put.
(...)
Be a closer! Only drink cucumber water. Own a nice car but never drive it personally. Keep your stun baton up one sleeve and a loaded Cred stick up the other. Suit+Over Coat, haute couture only! Have a taser dongle on your comm-link just in case! Have couple solid catch phrases or themed jokes. Schmooze always. Go to clubs as part of leg work. Talk about Politics! You are always one Commlink call away from the Solution to any problem.
Out of 4 players we have actually 1 human, 1 human looking orc and 2 elves. Maybe another elf pick would feel weird? Don't know :-\ It's pretty sad that elves are just plain the best faces with CHA 8...
About stun batons: Actually, in my whole first year i can't think of one single melee combat. It's pretty safe to say that fights are going like these two versions: a) Our party is spotting an enemy. The mage summons a R6 air spirit, let it kill 80% of the pack and we clean up the rest. Or it goes like b), where our party gets surprised and people around us are starting to shoot. If the mage does not get knocked out (or has knocked himself out by overcasting like Palpatine), he then summons a R6 air spirit to kill 80%... okay, i guess you know the drill allready. So, CC is really never a thing until a player character wants to slice and dice somebody.
Love your last words, btw :D Only by reading them i get excited to build a new character!
(...)
Which makes me wonder how the other characters are so good that a 14DP with automatics is totally irrelevant.
Related to your build suggestion: It's pretty much the same problem i told bdyer before :-\
To the damage problem: True, i am able to hit hard with my modified FN HAR (i did... at least i remember one time). The real problem is, i'm almost never able to use it. Either we were doing some "normal" stuff, like partying after a run, celebrating someones birthday or being in public, where my character doesn't carry a big weapon like this around. In this cases i pick my ares crusader or hk urban combat. And if we go on a mission, i don't pick big guns like that going sneaky. But the other guys are running around with ares alphas and R4 ruthenium poly swat armor (which i would NEVER do going stealth, but hey, if you have an air spirit concealing your whole party...). So maybe it is just me being a lazy duck and not just picking the weapons with best stats and giving a shit about the theoretical handicap of a big armor, as long as there are no (real) rules about encumbrance...
So, I've made my thoughts around the idea of a new character a bit (yesterday it was only frustration, to be honest). I know my ideas are not very clear, but i try to focus, i promise.
Race: So, having 2 elves in the party and because my last character was a human, i would like to go with Dwarf, Orc or Troll. Brings more flavor to the group and i have the possibility to try out something new! I know this is not a good base for a face, so let me share some more informations with you.
Role: Like i said, combat is important. And most of the time it is a pretty simple one. Shooting, most of the time with big guns and heavy armor (enemy average should be something about 12 dmg and 20 armor+body). Pretty much everything related to Logic is unimportant, because our decker has a LOG of 9 and at least 1 point in each related skill (i don't think she has one in armorer, but 2 karma is not very expensive for 10 dice ^^). So no reason to pick electronics or biotech, for example. I won't pick another summoner - i guess the GM would kill me, if i do. So this is no option.
Maybe i really should take a look into riggers, but i don't own the new book, yet. It will be very time consuming reading into all of it. Or i should pick an Oni and go with orc face. Hm... *grumble, grumble*
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Don't be a troll. Trolls are hard to work in priority. They are really overpriced in karmagen.
Trying to be an orkor troll face is an uphill battle that may not be very satisfying. But if you go this route I'd go wared.
(and a Face needs several "throwaways" as well as their primary one just to get on in life).
This increasingly pervasive notion that anyone needs multiple fake SINs can die in a fire.
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If mysadept is allowed ( or if you can take aspected sorcerer to convince the gm) here is a decent build
Human 0 karma
Mystic adept 35 karma ( or 15 with aspected)
Bod 3 25 karma
Str 2 10 karma
Reaction 5 70 karma
Agil 2 10 karma
Charisma 4 45 karma
Log 3 25 karma
Will 5 70 karma
Intuition 4 45 karma
Edge 7 125 karma
Magic 6 100 karma
50 karma of spells
Magic fingers
Influence
Control thoughts
Increase attribute charisma
Increase attribute intuition
Increase reflexes
Stunbolt
3 more choices
25 karma of adept points
Heightened concentration
Authoritative tone r3
Sustanence 1
Facial scupt 1
Melanin control 1
Voice control 1
Combat sense 1
Keratin control 1
Memory displacement
1.25 more powers
Spellcasting foci manipulation r4
Sustaining foci health r4
Use the sustaining foci to hold up increase charisma for +4 charisma in face meetings and increase reflexes in combat situations
Skills
Palming 4 20 karma
Disguise 4 20 karma
Spellcasting 6 spec manipulation 49 karma
Unarmed 6 42 karma
Perception 6 42 karma
con 6 42 karma
Impersonation 4 20 karma
Negotiation 6 42 karma
Etiquette 4 20 karma
Magic fingers is your go to combat spell, cast it once throwing edge behind it in the begining and you should end up with 10 hits, that's 16 or more dp and 10p damage
Face skills is 17 dp
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Wired Oni Face/Sam is totally doable, and gives you a great excuse to speak Japanese and English, maybe even more.
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First don't be concerned about the fact that the party has other elves in it. In fact it makes more sense that an elf face would join a team with other elves on it. You can take some qualities that make that even more appropriate.
Next I wouldn't wander into MYSAD, yes it offers lots of potential, but you already have a mage, and karma gen is already going to complicate generation, to make an effective Karma Gen you need to be very focused.
Troll and Orc facing is more complicated. Yes there are folks who can make it work, but until your more comfortable with the role I would stick to the classic archtype as much as possible.
Don't worry about the combat thing, your party already has it on lock clearly, as long as your character is a solid melee combatant, (18ish dice in stun baton, 20 dice in soak, init in range you already had, and 9S AP -5 stun baton that's also a weapon focus) You will be decent should any melee ever happen. A stun baton is also not a weapon that going to draw a lot of attention, cops don't arrest business men for carrying a tasers. It's non-lethal, it's not noisy, and it doesn't draw blood, so even if you use it in a public place its not a huge concern. If you want to become more effective in combat there lots of way to do it, starting with the Charge action, and continuing with Martial Arts.
The ol'mono-whip method is solid, but it also risky. Your only one glitch away from losing a limb. It is more effective then the stun baton, but it's not that much more effective, and it's main advantage is also a disadvantage from the face stand point. A good hit with a mono-whip is almost always lethal. A good hit with a stun baton, is just a target that out is cold. Killing folks is messy brings consequences, knocking folks out is professional, no one dies, no muss no fuss.
I'll dig out my karma gen spread sheet later on and see what I can do.
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You're not going to glitch on that many dice, and the wireless bonus is also a thing.
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You're not going to glitch on that many dice, and the wireless bonus is also a thing.
Probably not, the odds a very much against it in the 16+ die range.
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To counterpoint some of the suggestions...
If you are leaning towards face, consider a charisma tradition mage. The choice of spells is so broad, you can do so many utility things. It is also good to realize that you can teamwork summon. With two of you to summon, you could get some really nasty spirits. Does your other mage have ritual spellcasting? Having another mage to do rituals with could be great. If you don't go mys ad, you can join the existing mage when he does astral projecting. Your team gets along well without a face currently, so it isn't like you need all the social skills. Take Con (fast talk) and Negotiate (diplomacy) and talk your way through some situations. That plus the Influence spell can pull of some great stuff.
I would prioritize skills over stats. An interesting character concept could be an older man (my current build is such) with lower physical stats. Take clout spell with a fetish and you could easily cast F9 clout spells and reliably take no drain. you would be doing 9 base DV plus net hits with an AP of -9. All the rest of the spells could be utility and buff/debuff. If you don't want to play an elf, put your Charisma at 5, take focused concentration 5 (although with karma gen maybe not so hard to take it at 6). This lets you sustain a F5 increase Charisma spell with no penalty and you'll be a human with a 9 Cha. This should put you at 14 or 15 dice to soak drain.
I play an intuition mage this way. Pretty fun. If your team is handling combat just fine, don't stress about matching them in that. Go support, lots of good contacts, knowledge skills and Detection spells. Have your character always finding out that info no one else can get hands on.
Spellcasting 6 (+ specialization matching mentor), Summoning (+2 spirits of man), Binding (+2 spirits of man), Perception, Assensing, Con, Negotiation, Sneak. token ranks in arcana and etiquette.
Extended Detect life and Extended Spatial Sense allows you to map the area (quite a bit of it) plus see where the guards are.
levitate and improved invisibility are a no brainer, Detect thoughts, Mind Probe (if conscience allows),Influence, Physical Mask, Astral Window, Mana WIndow, Alter Memory, there is just so much you can do.
I've never messed with Karma gen, so I don't know how to build this, sorry. Just thought I'd give some input on the concept
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So I read this thread and felt bad for you.
I mean does the decker have good agility and gymnastics along with his good sneaking skill?
If not the GM is letting him off easy.
Regardless I think an adept face, possibly cybered, is a good choice.
Why?
It's a role your party desperately needs + you get access to Commanding Voice (think Jedi mind-tricks a la "these are not the droids you are looking for") which can easily put you into the drivers seat in many encounters ("drop your weapons!").
Here's a potential build below.
It focusses on being able to adopt the appearance of almost anyone almost instantly.
Who needs to sneak when you can just BE the mark?
Starts off with a monofilament weapon focus (should be fun for killing spirits and such).
Can do most of the sneaky face stuff pretty well.
Lots of room to grow with JoAT keeping costs low to raise those skills.
Bumping edge to 2 will only cost you 10 karma.
Considering where your other team-mates are at I would ask for a karma and nuyen bonus to build the character up a bit and bring it more up to the power level of the rest of the table.
Cybered Elf Face
METATYPE: ELF
B 2, A 6/8, R 5/6, S 3, W 3, L 3, I 5, C 8, ESS 5.1, EDG 1, M 4
Condition Monitor (P/S): 9 / 10
Armor: 14
Limits: Physical 5, Mental 5, Social 13
Physical Initiative: 10/11+2D6
Active Skills: Con (Fast Talking +2) 2, Disguise 1, Etiquette 1, Exotic Melee Weapon: Monofilament Whip 2 (3), Gymnastics 1, Impersonation 2, Leadership 4, Negotiation (Bargaining +2) 2, Perception 1, Pistols (Semi-Automatics +2) 3, Sneaking (Urban +2) 3
Knowledge Skills: small unit tactics (Urban +2) 6, Street knowledge: Seattle 1
Languages: English N, Japanese 4, Sperethiel 4
Metatype Abilities: Enhanced Senses: Low-Light Vision
Qualities: Adept, Agile Defender, Biocompatibility (Bioware), Jack of All Trades, Master of None, Mentor Spirit: Raven, Prototype Transhuman: Wanted, SINner (Corporate SIN): Renraku, Wanted
Adept Powers: Authoritative Tone (2), Combat Sense (1), Commanding Voice (12dicepool vs. Willpower + Intuition), Facial Sculpt (4 hours) (1) (6dicepool), Keratin Control, Linguistics (8dicepool (Varies)), Melanin Control (5h), Traceless Walk, Voice Control (1) (14dicepool[5] vs. Voice rec. x 2 or PER + INT)
Augmentations:
Fingertip Compartment
Muscle Toner (Used) (2)
Reflex Recorder (Used): Exotic Melee Weapon
Smartlink (Used)
Synaptic Booster (Prototype) (1) w/ Prototype Transhuman
Tailored Pheromones (Prototype) (3) w/ Prototype Transhuman
Gear:
Armor Jacket
Ballistic Mask (Customized)
Concealable Holster
Contacts (3) w/ Flare Compensation, Image Link, Vision Enhancement (1)
Cram
Ear buds (3) w/ Audio Enhancement (2), Select Sound Filter (1)
Matrix Systems GridGopher
Micro-Tranceiver
Novacoke
Plastic Restraints x10
Tool Kit, Disguise
Weapons:
Savalette Guardian [Heavy Pistol, Acc 8, DV 8P, AP -5, SA/BF, RC 4, 12 (c)] w/ (50x) APDS, Flashlight, Low-Light, Gas-Vent System (3), Personalized Grip, Smartgun System, Internal
Monofilament Whip Weapon Focus (1) [Exotic Melee Weapon, Reach 2, Acc 7, DV 12P, AP -8] w/ Weapon Focus (1)
Starting ¥: 955 + (1D6 × 20)¥
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Shadowrun © 2005-2015 The Topps Company, Inc. All rights reserved. Shadowrun is a registered trademark of The Topps Company, Inc.
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Oh my goodness... guys, thank you all so much for your replies and character builds! I will hopp right now into chummer and create some chars according to your ideas. Will be back here, if i have some questions.
Really, thank you for giving me back this feeling of excitement i had when i was building my first character :)
Like i said: will be back later and edit some questions in here.
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Okay, so, I took a look at your character breakdown in the link.
Going from Infiltration Adept to Combat Face Adept
It takes you away from Stealth Insertion, but leaves you a few sneaky skills, and puts you squarely in the Face + Combat field.
I think it will be a bit meaner in combat while filling a role that the team is lacking and give you something to do & shine at it.
My... thanks for all the effort, mate! I hope you don't kill me saying this, but it would feel awkward for me to just make a different version of my old character. Shadowrun is a world full of fluff. If i have the possibility to pick another character, i feel like i'm missing an opportunity sticking to similar skills (like aikido specialization and such) and race. Should have given more information, i know - was a bit spontaneous for me as well to think about a face. And it was 4a.m., so... sorry :-\
No Worries.
I was basing my response partially off your other thread where you said things like Human + Automatics + Reflexes-3 all had to stay.
It seemed like on that page that you were looking for a tweak v/s a full rebuild.
Doing the Swap thing made it easy for me since I didn't want to recalculate all the Karma for every level & it made it easy to give you an example of where you could go.
If your able to build from the ground up then by all means, move more stuff around.
Strong points to focus on, IMHO...
Bod-3, Agi-5+, Rea-4+, Str-2-,
Wil-3/5, Log-4-, Itn-4+, Cha-5+
Mag-6, Edg-3+, Ess-5+
Heavy Skills: Con, Negotiation, Etiquette, Guntype, Perception
Medium Skills: Sneaking, Impersonation, Disguise,
Light Skills: Driving, Computer, Assensing, Escape, Palming, Running, Unarmed
Positive Qualities: Jack of All Trades, Mentor Spirit, Trustfund, 1st Impression
Some of my favorite Adept Powers of the Facey, Sneaky, Shooty types.
Astral Perception
Authoritative Tone
Combat Sense
Facial Sculpt
Heightened Concern
Improved Reflexes
Linguistics
Magic Sense
Melanin Control
Motion Sense
Quickness Boost-1
Traceless Walk
Adepts really can make for a great "combo" character of the Face/Stealth/Combat type.
Someone, on these boards had some GREAT advise one time & I always consider it when looking at character builds.
Here is a bit of a paraphrase
Shadowruns consist of 3 activities/stages & you want to be able to do SOMETHING for every one of those to avoid boredom & be happy w/ your play time.
1. Legwork - Everyone should be able to contribute to the information gathering phase... Contact Contact Contacts .... they are for every class.
2. Combat - Everyone needs to be able to shoot & shoot well with at least 1 decent weapon
3. Support/Other - Kind of a catch all, but you want some other ability to do when your not doing the above 2. Help w/ Recon, Stealth Insertion, B&E, Medical Treatment, Astral Recon, Gear Acquisition, Buffing, Leadership, Demolitions, something for when you are not on the phone or actively shooting.
Now, as a Samurai you might do several things in Combat, or as a Mage you might do several things in Support, & as a Face you might have many ways to do legwork, but everyone should be able to do at least 1 thing for the 3 categories above.
For example, I made a Troll Cybertank that had ZERO face ability, but, for Legwork he had a couple different contacts w/ 5-7 points in each.
Sure it cost me some Karma at Char-Gen but who cares, those are permanent assets.
For support he was pretty stealthy as well & could sneak, well, as much as an 8ft tall troll can ever sneak, he could sneak.
Let us know what concept you finally decide on.
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Except when you have a Face, then you dont need any contacts apparently ::)
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You can do plenty in the legwork phase without contacts.
Riggers do drone surveillance in that phase, for example. Usually after someone's contact gives info or the decker steals it from the Matrix.
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Allright, i meshed your ideas together in one build, and tried to come up with something viable. It is a Mysad now, casting R6 Increased CHA and storing it via Focused Concentration for a drain resistance of 15 and a DP of 16 (18) in the common social skills. Build the character with 950 karma (according to the level of the other team members) and a nuyen pool of 100k. I have 70 karma and roughly 90k NY left. What is left to buy with it:
- secondary combat ability (never rely only on magic)
- knowledge skills
- contacts
+ negative qualities? (didn't had a good idea yet)
- SINs!
- spellcasting/sustaining/power foci?
- secondary combat gear
- commlink + software
== Info ==
Human Movement: 6/12
Composure: 11
Street Cred: 0 Judge Intentions: 11
Notoriety: 0 Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Public Awareness: 0 Memory: 8
Karma: 70 Nuyen: 89900
Age: Skin:
Eyes: Hair:
== Attributes ==
BOD: 3 CHA: 6
AGI: 3 INT: 5
REA: 3 LOG: 3
STR: 2 WIL: 5
EDG: 2 MAG: 6
== Derived Attributes ==
Essence: 6 Initiative: 8 + 1d6
Physical Damage Track: 10 Rigger Init: 8 + 1d6
Stun Damage Track: 11 Astral Init: 10 + 2d6
Physical: 4 Matrix AR Init: 8 + 1d6
Mental: 6 Matrix VR Cold Init: 5 + DP + 3d6
Social: 9 Matrix VR Hot Init: 5 + DP + 4d6
Mortimer of London: Argentum Coat [+1] (Must be visible)
Astral: 9
== Active Skills ==
Con (Fast Talk) 6 Pool: 14 (16)
Counterspelling 1 Pool: 7
Disguise 4 Pool: 10
Etiquette 4 Pool: 10
Impersonation 4 Pool: 10
Negotiation (Diplomacy) 6 Pool: 12 (14)
Palming 4 Pool: 8
Perception 6 Pool: 11
Pilot Ground Craft 1 Pool: 4
Sneaking 4 Pool: 7
Spellcasting (Manipulation) 6 Pool: 12 (14)
== Knowledge Skills ==
== Qualities ==
Focused Concentration (Rating 6)
Mentor Spirit (Dragonslayer)
Mystic Adept
Too Pretty To Hit
== Spells ==
(Tradition: Shinto, Resist Drain with WIL + CHA (11))
Detect Life, Extended DV: F-1
Improved Invisibility DV: F-1
Increase [Attribute] (CHA) DV: F-3
Increase Reflexes DV: F
Influence DV: F-1
Levitate DV: F-2
Magic Fingers DV: F-2
Mind Probe DV: F
Spatial Sense, Extended DV: F-1
Stunbolt DV: F-3
== Powers ==
Authoritative Tone Rating: 2
Combat Sense Rating: 1
Facial Sculpt Rating: 1
Heightened Concern
Keratin Control
Kinesics Rating: 1
Magic Sense
Melanin Control
Nimble Fingers
Sustenance
Traceless Walk
Voice Control Rating: 1
== Lifestyles ==
(Medium) 1 months
== Armor ==
Mortimer of London: Argentum Coat 12
+Concealability
+Custom Fit (Stack)
== Weapons ==
Unarmed Attack
Pool: 2 Accuracy: 4 DV: 2S AP: - RC: 2
I'm actually not sure if i went overboard with the face abilities. i invested heavily in CHA and social skills. Actually i was a bit suprised that it used up so much of the available 950 karma points already. Keep in mind it would also be possible to raise skills over 6, because the character will be out of chargen after 850 of the 950 karma (850 was the starting value our GM has set). Qualities are also allowed to be +35/-35 (just in case you are wondering how much points i've spent there). No restricted gear quality allowed (not sure why, but it's not important for me, so i don't bother).
No Worries.
(...)
Someone, on these boards had some GREAT advise one time & I always consider it when looking at character builds.
Here is a bit of a paraphrase
Shadowruns consist of 3 activities/stages & you want to be able to do SOMETHING for every one of those to avoid boredom & be happy w/ your play time.
1. Legwork - Everyone should be able to contribute to the information gathering phase... Contact Contact Contacts .... they are for every class.
2. Combat - Everyone needs to be able to shoot & shoot well with at least 1 decent weapon
3. Support/Other - Kind of a catch all, but you want some other ability to do when your not doing the above 2. Help w/ Recon, Stealth Insertion, B&E, Medical Treatment, Astral Recon, Gear Acquisition, Buffing, Leadership, Demolitions, something for when you are not on the phone or actively shooting.
(...)
Let us know what concept you finally decide on.
Thanks, man! And again for sharing these interesting insights. From what i know out of my first year in SR it is a really good summary of the important things to do in SR. I will keep this in mind for the actual char building phase, for sure!
In fact, i have not decided yet if i will stick with the face. For me it needs time to have this special idea, feel comfy with a build and/or the story behind it. The actual try seems pretty decent. Contacts are still missing, but will be a thing for the legwork phase. At least one combat spell is there, a DP of 16 is also not bad (and it's non-lethal damage, which will be a huge boost to our damage types ^^), another combat type should be included though. And last but not least a lot of spells to scout the area, move team mates around and simply buff people in the line of fire. A few things that i am actually arguing about:
- How is magic sense used? The adept can "feel" magic objects (and subjects) in a range of 60 meters. Allright, understand that. But how can i use it like detect magic, a spell which gives you different amounts of information regarding your hits...? Has someone found an errata or simple solution for it? Am i missing something here? Love this adept power, actually, because it is just working, gives informations almost instantly (not like assensing every single obejct piece by piece) and i don't have to project astrally, which will leave me vulnerable.
- Is clout an option? Seems like together with a fetish (-2 drain value for 2k NY) it is stupidly easy to overcast. F9 means Dmg 9 and AP -9 for a DV of 4 (yeah, lethal damage... but with 15 drain resistance it should be fine). Sure, it's damage rating not as high as some guns, but it could be an interesting alternative, right?
- Loved the idea to fight unarmed with magic hands, but can't really see this work, since the highest possible stat rating would be spell force = 6 most of the time. So you attack unarmed with STR/AGI 6. Or is it possible to boost this otherwise? Seems not very good to me.
- I could be a bit "cheesy" and pick up the jack of all trades quality, picking up a lot of of 6-8 ratings in skill (our GM has allowed us to go up to 8 in chargen - don't know why either... don't like this, but still can use it) and pick up a lot of 1-2 value skills "after chargen" with the 100 extra karma i get to be on the same level with the other players (they still will have more points, but it is close). Don't know if i like this, but it would theoretically be possible, because i'm not risking anything going out of chargen without some of the small skills.
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Looks good to me. I'd suggest swapping, diplomacy to bargaining or contracts.
You still need contacts though.
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If you plan on using magic fingers to fight with as I suggested, you will need the unarmed skill for that.
For the rest I would suggest 1-2 points in automatics and bringing edge up to 5 or 6. Since you have the money, a power foci would also be awesome.
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Counterspelling is based solely on the skill.... so a skill of 1 just gives you one die to use.
No such thing as too much invested in social for a Face,,,
My Pornomancer has 8 CHA, 6|Spec in Con, Leadership and Negotiations, Authoritative Tone[3] and Cool Resolve [2].
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For magic fingers or any spell for that matter you can break the force limita by spending edge beforehand or spending reagents. Those spells can still be sustained by focused concentration or sustaining foci.
So for magic fingers if you have an edge of 6 you spend edge beforehand and add your pool. So your dicepool will be 6(mag) + 6(skill) + 6(edge) + 4( spec and mentor) + (4) foci=26 dice with exploding 6's. On average you should have 10 hits or agil 10/ str 10 spell that can be sustained all day through heightened concentration or focused concentration.
Using that to attack you have 10+skill+ bonuses with a limit of force.
You can also use the fingers to Palm stuff off of other people, pick locks, use it sorta like levitate by picking people up.
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@Marcus
Good point, swapped it to bargaining.
Contacts will be there soon. I'm working on it ;) Thought about kicking some qualities to pick up friends in high places. Not sure about it though...
@bdyer
Seems like a pretty heavy investment for me for a DP 16-18, DMG 10 attack. You have to focus heavily on manipulation spells (spec, mentor and focus) AND additionally need a full skill with spec AND a high edge value. A streetsam needs only one skill and a weapon for it. In numbers:
AGI 6 + Automatics 6 + Spec + Smartlink + Ares Alpha = 149 karma and 6650 NY for a DP of 16, AC 7 and 11 Dmg, AP -2 (not including ammunition and burst fire).
MAG 6 + Spellcasting 6 + Spec + Mentor + Edge 6 + Focus + Unarmed 6 + Spec = 293 Karma and 16000 NY for an average DP of 17, AC 6, and 10 Dmg, AP -.
Sure, the key will be to use all the investment for other things, too. The automatics skill is a lot more special (even though you can use weapons from pistol to rifle sizes) and only there for combat. Spellcasting and edge will be helpful in a lot of circumstances. It is a good idea, if your character is already built that way. With my current build it would be a huge investment though. Will see, like the idea, but i'm already short on karma :-\
@gradivus
Oh, didn't knew this (not sure if our mage used it right then last time...). Thanks for the clarification!
This will count up to 21 dice in best cases (when you can use your spec and authorative tone). I'm pretty close to this numbers, so i feel good about it ;)
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no such thing as too much invested in social for a Face,,
Heartily disagree.
My MysAd face has no face adept powers and does extremely well in contentious social situations, even against very optimized social spec Johnsons.
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Whisky is right You can certainly go to far as facing, Con (fast-talk) and Negotiation(Bargaining) covers the two primary face responsibilities. Anything after that is simply extra.
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Okay? Allright, since we have no face in our party i will maybe tune down the abilities a bit, 'cause this char will still be the best in this area.
To another topic: Whiskey, you mentioned a rigger as an alternative. I talked with ZeldaBravo about a build in April '15, in this topic:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20599.msg369149#msg369149
Do you think, this build is viable? I would like to see an alternative for the face, but i'm not sure how the new rigger book has changed the meta. The build wasn't finished, but it is maybe a good foundation to start from.
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I mainly say that because I would much rather have my IR and Combat Sense powers than even more Social dice, hitting diminishing returns
I'm not very experienced with riggers and haven't looked at the new book at all yet but I'll take a glance when I can.
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Okay? Allright, since we have no face in our party i will maybe tune down the abilities a bit, 'cause this char will still be the best in this area.
To another topic: Whiskey, you mentioned a rigger as an alternative. I talked with ZeldaBravo about a build in April '15, in this topic:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=20599.msg369149#msg369149
Do you think, this build is viable? I would like to see an alternative for the face, but i'm not sure how the new rigger book has changed the meta. The build wasn't finished, but it is maybe a good foundation to start from.
Don't tone it back any. It's functional as is, but drop to to anything below 16 and your looking at too watered down.
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I mainly say that because I would much rather have my IR and Combat Sense powers than even more Social dice, hitting diminishing returns
I'm not very experienced with riggers and haven't looked at the new book at all yet but I'll take a glance when I can.
IR[2] plus CS[3] still leaves room for Commanding Voice and Authoritative Tone[2]
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Yeah, you are probably right. Trying to find the sweet spot between useless in a lot of skills or useless besides of one particular thing. After spreding my skill points too far on my last char, i don't want to run into the next trap of focusing too heavy on 2-3 skills. But yeah, 16-18 dice should be the sweet spot, i guess. Reaching out to 22 should be possible, but i think it is a huge waste of karma.
(Edit: Spoiler alert! This is mostly OT and me whining about the actual situation in my group. So, if you aren't interested in wasting your time on some personal experience, then don't read any further.)
Actually i think this is one of the big problems of Shadowrun. It is pretty easy to reach decent numbers of dice. Like 7-8 is the average in most stuff. Attribute 3 + Skill 3, which is really easy to learn in time scales, takes a week or so - add some tools, like 'ware or equipment and you'll be at 7+ dice without investing anything but some days of learning. Increasing this gets more and more expensive by just a small chance to perform better. And on the other hand you don't have enough points/karma at chargen to increase everything to this "standard" level. So you are left in this awkward spot, where your character has to be an idiot in 80% of the skills just to better than Joe Average in 2-3. I understand that runners are specialists, but this feels unnecessary extreme for me.
Allright, sorry for talking OT, but in a strange way i can put hours and hours of time into character creation and i'm never satisfied with the results. I know, it is the theme of Shadowrun to give up something to gain something. Maybe i'm frustrated about the type of play my group is doing and this is not the cause but only the effect of it. I don't know, like i said before, I have a lot of experience in playing Pen&Paper. Maybe i have to be more flexible in my playstile or so, but in the end it should always be fun, right? And allthough it is fun to meet all the people, playing the runs is just ... yeah, mediocre. It is okay. Crazy to say this, because i love the setting and atmosphere of SR. Maybe i should just talk to our GM again and see what he has to say.
Not sure how to say it, but every run we do it feels a bit like a fight player vs. GM. I'm used to put a lot of trust in the GM. When he says that my character gets hit, then he gets hit, no need to argue. In our group this can take up to 10-20 minutes of discussion, reading in the rules, talking about possibilities, RAW, RAI. I know it is fun to create characters in certain ways and to fit all pieces together like from a big puzzle. But the GM should have the last word, without further discussion. And on the other hand, he should create the world (e.g. runs) around the characters. Like i said in the beginning of this thread, he told me that my character is more or less useless for the group and no big loss. I think it is my type of personality, but at first i felt bad, like i made a mistake, didn't put enough effort into creating a complex character. But the last days and hours i red through a lot of threads in other forums and came to the decision that he is also responsible. If my stealth adept has nothing to do, is it really my fault? If i don't go to a party in swat armor and with my assault rifle on my back - am i playing wrong? No, i don't think so. There could be a lot of things to do for me, especially since we are not more than 4 players in total (one character is played by the GM, he is switching with another guy from time to time). Like pulling multiple levers in a building at the same time, working under time pressure, so we have to split, or giving us a hard challenge which is too hard to master for our mediocre-sneaky decker. I know, a DP of 14 in sneaking, lockpicking, gymnastics and unarmed is not great, but it is decent (without boni from equipment or adept powers). Plus 10 dice (and initiative ~25) in automatics, computer, perception, palming and software should lead me somewhere, i guess... yeah, but what can you do. Not to mention masking metamagic, cloaking, freefall, hang time, nimble fingers, traceless walk, wall running, improved senses, aikido martial arts with counterstrike...
Hm. Sorry guys, had to write this down out of frustration. Sorry if you red all of this, it's not really valuable stuff, i guess. I'm sure i have to talk to our GM what he wants from me for my next character. What is "valuable" for him. Until now i have the feeling, that he is hardly focused on 1) legwork and 2) combat. I think we had 1 run so far, where we didn't had to fight, and that was led by the other guy and not our main GM. So yeah, i will stick to the plan of creating a new character, but i will go and get some feedback before committing to something in particular. Yeah, sorry... like i said, not really topic related.
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A little late here... but, looking over the team as is and their needs, but as Rooks said, technomancer/face looks like a fun addon. "Buffs" and social skills seem just what your team is lacking (especially if a conjurer is also joining). There are a few ways to build one (a to the point face/registering focus, a luck-boosted character, a machine sprite boosted skillwire angle, etc.), and having 950 karma to play with can smooth out some of the rougher edges of a starting technomancer. You got a decker who could use a sprite in the deck, a control-rig-less magician might find some use for a machine sprite in their ride, and i'm sure their are some smartlinked weapons about and users who would like some sprite help. You can do it as human if you feel elf'd out. This will help your character take a spotlight role in talking, develop some cool contacts, and instead of just tagging along with the decker to break into places, you can help in the process and provide some of that social infiltration piece that might come up, as well as with some matrix work. The character won't have the social dice pools of an elven social adept, but will still be the best social skill person on the team.
See what your GM thinks about a technomancer in the game!
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Hm. Sorry guys, had to write this down out of frustration. Sorry if you red all of this, it's not really valuable stuff, i guess. I'm sure i have to talk to our GM what he wants from me for my next character. What is "valuable" for him. Until now i have the feeling, that he is hardly focused on 1) legwork and 2) combat. I think we had 1 run so far, where we didn't had to fight, and that was led by the other guy and not our main GM. So yeah, i will stick to the plan of creating a new character, but i will go and get some feedback before committing to something in particular. Yeah, sorry... like i said, not really topic related.
Don't worry- everyone needs to vent sometimes and this is your thread.
I ran a DND 4th game where 4 of the characters were not optimized. The fifth guy did more damage per round than the first 4 and was the skill monkey to boot so it was like Sir Lancelot and the 4 peasants who happened to come along to watch him fight. Couldn't challenge the group at the proficiency of the first 4 because the other guy just ran thru it by himself and couldn't challenge the group at the level of the one guy because 1 or more of the other guys is definitely dying. I asked the one guy to do a new character toned down to the group (he did with out a problem) and the campaign went on until I had to move out of the area.
Unfortunately in your case, it's reversed, your character is weaker than everyone else. The GM can't realistically say everyone tone down your characters to the one persons DPs. You're stuck trying to make a character that has DPs in their levels. I'm not sure you're going to be able to find a happy medium (High enough DP with enough left over to satisfy how you envision the character). Hopefully you do.
SR has always been- this is the level the developers think you should be playing at (see the archetypes) vs the fact that you can optimize to so much higher levels. Most people won't settle for the 12-14DPs because they want their character to be as good as possible- even if it means they have 3 total active skills, bare minimum knowledge skills and 1 contact; but hey, I shoot, sneak and perceive with 16+DP each.
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See what your GM thinks about a technomancer in the game!
Oh Gemstar, your devotion to the Techno cause is almost certainly unparalleled in this edition. I admire your devotion and loyalty to the most stepped on Archetype in all 5th. Honestly I think they should name the forth coming untitled techno book, "Gemstar's Guide to Resonance", or something similar. But I would not suggest following this plan at least until that untitled book is released and the current issue with technos gets addressed.
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I have a question- you stated the GM started at 850 Karma but you're using 100.
I'm assuming that the extra hundred is post-run Karma.
If that's so, then you should be able to initiate with it (assuming the GM doesn't say no)
If your going to play an Awakened character, this should be a consideration.
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That is a solid point, if you have any interest in meta-magic, initiation gets the job done.
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That is a solid point, if you have any interest in meta-magic, initiation gets the job done.
Usually I write something stupid and Marcus then corrects me.
I guess I'll have to bake myself a cookie for this one.
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That is a solid point, if you have any interest in meta-magic, initiation gets the job done.
Usually I write something stupid and Marcus then corrects me.
I guess I'll have to bake myself a cookie for this one.
Haha ;D That's true, our group had some special char creation rules:
- karma gen
- +50 karma (so 850 in total)
- up to +35/-35 in qualities allowed
- at least one hobby for the character
- an etiquette value of 1+spec or 3+
- no Restricted Gear quality
After this year of playing the most PCs are at a total karma of 977 (i missed a few meetings, so my actual char is at 950). We earned around 200k NY, so i guess 100k NY would be okay to bring the character to a decent and compareable level with the others. In total this is 1.000 karma points, while 50 of them have to be spend on NY after char creation and 100 on other stuff (after char creation!). So it is a bit tricky to build, but leaves room for options. Like initiating. I guess 1 initiation would be okay. My adept and the other mage had initiated one time each, so we would be on the same level here as well. So picking up centering or masking is totally doable!
Technomancer is hard to build, in my humble opionion. Especially with all the cool stuff out there for all the other classes (spells, 'ware, etc.). It's true, sprites can be very useful, for example shutting down enemy communication or weapon systems. But i would act in an area of another character of the group. The GM wasn't able so far to create a setting where the two of us were able to be useful while sneaking. I'm not sure if this would change now with a decker and a technomancer. And also i don't want to look like the kind of guy, who gets annoyed by the minmaxed char of another player and creates his next character to do almost the exact same type of thing (yeah, decking and technomancing is different... but it may look like it).
No, i guess RIGGER or FACE are the best options here, because they really spread the range and possibilities of the group. Sure the elf mage can talk a bit with CHA 8 and 1 point in each social skill group. But he is a combat mage and summoner, follower of Morrigan and the Thunderbird Mentor Spirit. It's not good to send this guy to a conversation, trust me... and he is also a good driver (Ancient), but almost always rides his bike, so one of our sams has a car for the group (a car... yeah... allright, let's say it has four seats and wheels ^^). So either of those characters mentioned above would limit the tasks of the other players, they would just offer more options.
What do you/the mods think? Would it be good to keep up the discussion about the two different possible character builds here in this thread? Or would be it be better to make a new thread for each of the two, so people can commentate on each?
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I read the below and felt so sad for you.
The GM seems to be cutting you short shrift and focussing overly much on combat (SWAT armor and assault rifles at a party? What kind of party is that?!!?).
It's also, generally speaking, bad for the GM to have their character as an NPC in the game.
It's a common trap that novice / young GMs fall into.
I GM for our group 90% of the time and I also have a character.
He makes cameo appearances occasionally when the team needs someone with his very specific skillset but otherwise he is firmly off-stage.
I do grant him 50% of the karma that the team gets for runs just so I keep my hand in character generation and have a character to play when I get a chance.
Not sure how to say it, but every run we do it feels a bit like a fight player vs. GM. I'm used to put a lot of trust in the GM. When he says that my character gets hit, then he gets hit, no need to argue. In our group this can take up to 10-20 minutes of discussion, reading in the rules, talking about possibilities, RAW, RAI. I know it is fun to create characters in certain ways and to fit all pieces together like from a big puzzle. But the GM should have the last word, without further discussion. And on the other hand, he should create the world (e.g. runs) around the characters. Like i said in the beginning of this thread, he told me that my character is more or less useless for the group and no big loss. I think it is my type of personality, but at first i felt bad, like i made a mistake, didn't put enough effort into creating a complex character. But the last days and hours i red through a lot of threads in other forums and came to the decision that he is also responsible. If my stealth adept has nothing to do, is it really my fault? If i don't go to a party in swat armor and with my assault rifle on my back - am i playing wrong? No, i don't think so. There could be a lot of things to do for me, especially since we are not more than 4 players in total (one character is played by the GM, he is switching with another guy from time to time). Like pulling multiple levers in a building at the same time, working under time pressure, so we have to split, or giving us a hard challenge which is too hard to master for our mediocre-sneaky decker. I know, a DP of 14 in sneaking, lockpicking, gymnastics and unarmed is not great, but it is decent (without boni from equipment or adept powers). Plus 10 dice (and initiative ~25) in automatics, computer, perception, palming and software should lead me somewhere, i guess... yeah, but what can you do. Not to mention masking metamagic, cloaking, freefall, hang time, nimble fingers, traceless walk, wall running, improved senses, aikido martial arts with counterstrike...
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I'd say your character is good, it is just a fit with your group thing. Sometimes you just have to decide if you want to stick with a group, and if so figure out in what way you can have the most fun, even though they don't share your preference in terms of game style.
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As Far as splitting the thread, yeah, I would.
Start a new thread for each character so you get opinions just about that character.
Then decide which of the two to finalize.
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== Attributes ==
EDG: 2
== Active Skills ==
Counterspelling 1 Pool: 7
Disguise 4 Pool: 10
Impersonation 4 Pool: 10
Pilot Ground Craft 1 Pool: 4
Sneaking 4 Pool: 7
== Spells ==
Detect Life, Extended DV: F-1
Magic Fingers DV: F-2
Spatial Sense, Extended DV: F-1
== Powers ==
Kinesics Rating: 1
Nimble Fingers
Sustenance
Voice Control Rating: 1
- Is clout an option? Seems like together with a fetish (-2 drain value for 2k NY) it is stupidly easy to overcast. F9 means Dmg 9 and AP -9 for a DV of 4 (yeah, lethal damage... but with 15 drain resistance it should be fine). Sure, it's damage rating not as high as some guns, but it could be an interesting alternative, right?
- Loved the idea to fight unarmed with magic hands, but can't really see this work, since the highest possible stat rating would be spell force = 6 most of the time. So you attack unarmed with STR/AGI 6. Or is it possible to boost this otherwise? Seems not very good to me.
- I could be a bit "cheesy" and pick up the jack of all trades quality, picking up a lot of of 6-8 ratings in skill (our GM has allowed us to go up to 8 in chargen - don't know why either... don't like this, but still can use it) and pick up a lot of 1-2 value skills "after chargen" with the 100 extra karma i get to be on the same level with the other players (they still will have more points, but it is close). Don't know if i like this, but it would theoretically be possible, because i'm not risking anything going out of chargen without some of the small skills.
Over all it looks okay.
I question the above items & offer the following suggestions.
Get some more Edge. With your Karma getting to Edge-3 should be easy. 4 Would be awesome.
Drop the skills listed above, buy some L1 skills, post Chargen w/ Joat.
For the 3 skills at L4 worth of Chargen karma…… I would suggest Counterspelling, Summoning, Binding
I would drop the Powers listed above & pick up Motion Sense + Pain Resistance-1
Clout is a great spell IMHO. I would actually suggest Blast instead to give you an AE.
Fling lets you use Knives, Shuriken, & Grenades as if you had full proficiency. Love it.
Fling + Blast is a solid combo that is different than the typical “Ball Lightning” everyone chooses. Some “poisoned” daggers, or other chemicals, also seems like a cool idea.
Finally Detect Enemies XR is IMHO more often useful than Detect Life XR.
Joat is a very solid choice for you since you can use it to pick up a lot of low level skills since you have post chargen karma to burn.