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Season 5 Contacts

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Bull

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« Reply #30 on: <09-17-13/0649:52> »
Bull slipped up and missed the 7-max rule. :P

Yeah, I kinda goofed on that one.  The downside to having about 42 different versions of Shadowrun rattling around in my head.  I sometimes lose track of little rules and use an older version. :)


Unless Bull lowered the Connection Ratings, they are all good. Those are the MAXIMUM starting Loyalty, not the Minimum Starting Loyalty,
and I did not see any Connection 6 people in there. (Interesting, though, considering Connection 6 is now like Connection 3 in SR4...)

Well, yes and no.  The curve is just different.  And it's not something that's really been explored much yet. 

In my opinion, 1-4 is about the same as it was in SR4.  5-7 is equal to about 5 in SR4.  8-10 or so represent a 6 in SR4.  Now the big difference, to my mind, is that we have 11 and 12.  You couldn't accurately represent Lofwyr, or Damien Knight, or another major mover and shaker in SR4, IMO, because the curve was so narrow.

martinchaen

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« Reply #31 on: <09-17-13/0926:04> »
Hehe, ok, I was just curious since "maximum" implied that you COULD buy them up to 4/4, for instance, since Connection was not variable.

Thanks for the clarification, Michael and Bull; wanted to make sure my SRM character was rules legal.

And Bull, I can't even begin to imagine; I'm struggling just between SR4 and SR5 :)

Bull

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« Reply #32 on: <09-17-13/0932:33> »
Yeah.  I've been playing since 1st edition.  I've played with 4 regular GMs over the years, plus run a few of my own campaigns, so I have the various house rules and GM quirks that go along with all of those.  Plus I have now playtested 3 editions (3rd, 4th, and 5th), and every playtest has dozens of variant rules that get tested and ultimately discarded.

And hell...  I can;t even remember where I put my van keys some days, let alone the bazillionteen rules for whatever edition I'm playing.  I think you're all lucky I remember that there are even dice involved ;)

martinchaen

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« Reply #33 on: <09-17-13/1010:47> »
Dice? My group has just been buying hits for everything; makes everything much more streamlined... /Sarcasm :D

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #34 on: <09-17-13/1328:58> »
I've reviewed the contacts again, and I'm curious about one mechanism; I presume you have to "buy" them using Karma, but with the max 7 karma per contact spend limitation in effect, how are so many contacts exceeding this limit in the document?

Honestly, where people are putting forth nitpick things in the errata thread like typos, this really should be changed. If someone wants to buy a Loyalty 6, Connection 10 contact in creation they should be able to using the rules as printed without alteration. Sure, that's a powerful contact, but someone getting that is paying out the butt for it (over 20% of the discretionary karma including Negative Qualities).

Even including the free karma for contacts, that's more than a Charisma 5 character gets.
« Last Edit: <09-17-13/1340:25> by All4BigGuns »
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

ZeConster

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« Reply #35 on: <09-17-13/2116:52> »
Isn't that something you think should be changed in general, not just in Missions, since it's the general rules that forbid this?

Tacitus05

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« Reply #36 on: <09-18-13/2026:48> »
BTW....I know they have to have ways worked in for getting more stuff for your character by exceeding the "limit". Those of us who player the LARP at GenCon get +3 to our characters next availability checks. Although to do so, my character had to hold a barrier spell against a few very, very determined shadow running teams.(and yes, they were PCs)

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #37 on: <09-18-13/2319:31> »
Isn't that something you think should be changed in general, not just in Missions, since it's the general rules that forbid this?

The limit entered discussion, so the timing and place were convenient to bring it up.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

Tangled Currents (Persistent): 33 Karma, 60,000 nuyen

martinchaen

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« Reply #38 on: <09-20-13/0240:51> »
Questions about availability and using contacts;

One of the first things I'd be looking to buy for my character is the Pain Editor bioware implant, which has an availability of 18. The highest rated contact you can get is someone like Dr. Martin Tate, and he would presumably be able to get this piece of gear but at extra cost. The first question is:

1. How much extra do you have to pay per extra dice?
Page 418 describes how you would do it as a player, so I presume this is a similar situation:
"For every additional twenty-five percent of the item’s value you are willing to pay, you get an additional die on the Negotiation Test. Once you get up to 400 percent of the item’s value (12 extra dice), throwing money at the problem doesn’t get you any more dice."

A contact like Dr. Martin Tate (C5/L2 at game start) would get Connection 5 (replacing Negotiation 7), plus Loyalty 2 (replacing Charisma 5), plus Connection 5, for a total of 12 dice, or 3 automatic hits. And this is where things start to get really confusing.

2. How do you round dice rolls when buying hits? As per page 45:
"To buy hits, simply count one hit for every four dice in your pool, rounded down."

In other words, how many automatic hits does an item with Availability 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20 get? 3, 3, 4, 4, and 5, respectively?

3. As a follow-up to the above, what effect (if any) does tieing the availability vs Swag test (page 388) have?
For example, would a contact with 12 dice count as winning against all items with availability 1 through 11, but as tieing with all items with availability between 12 to 15?[/u]

4. If yes to 3, how does delivery times work in SRM; as per usual according to page 418?
If yes to 4, some of the "relatively" low-cost 'ware items just became very, very hard to get. Let me illustrate with the example I'm specifically curious about;

12 dice vs Avail 18 for Pain Editor, standard grade. Base cost is 48k.
To reach 4 automatic hits (18/4 =4.5, rounded down to 4), a character would have to pay and additional 48k (100% extra, as 16-12=4 * 25% per extra dice), with a delivery time of 2 weeks.

If buying alpha grade, an additional 8 dice is required, for a total of 200% increase and a delivery time of 2 months. This would (hopefully) include the 1 week recovery time from 'ware installation, unless those costs are hidden somewhere I can't find.

Last question;
5. Can you initiate a Swag test with a contact before you have the cash (i.e. Payable on Delivery), or do you have to wait until you have the funds available to do so (i.e. Payable on Order)? The latter could potentially increase the delivery time by 2 months.

I'm also surprised that the change to using a contacts Connection and Loyalty in place of Negotiation and Charisma was made, particularly when all the contacts we have at our disposal at character generation are fully statted.

In comparison, if using Martin Tate's statline (N7+L2+C5), the availability out of chargen would still be >=15, but it would only take 50% more (2 dice) to tie the availability roll of Avail 16-19 items, or 150% more for Avail 20-23.

While I understand that SRM is designed to be a somewhat low-level campaign, there are far more unbalanced items out there than some of the high-availability items. For a "mere" 90-100k at chargen, I could drop the two cyberlegs on my street sam and buy a single-person helicopter outfitted with a medium machinegun and 10.000 rounds of APDS ammo. Not very subtle, but it would be a great one-trick pony! I guess the reason I'm a little miffed at this choice is that this choice only seriously affects cyber-heavy characters; while it will prohibit F6 power foci and extremely advanced cyberdecks, the price of these items alone puts them out of reach for most campaign characters. In terms of 'ware, however, this mechanism puts a LOT of things out of reach that normally would just have required a little saving and planning.

Why even bother including the paragraph about betaware being available, when it adds 4 to the availability and thus excludes nearly every R2 item in the book because of price? Even something as reasonable as an olfactory booster would be very impractical to get at Rating 6 betaware grade, as it would be priced at 24k * 1.5 = 36k, with a modified Availability of ((3*6)+4=22), meaning a character would have to add 8 dice (or 200%) for a total cost of 72k. As the average runner can expect to earn between 5-20k per SRM adventure, that means a full 12 mission season earn the character 120k or so on average, presuming they do well.

The price hike 'ware took in SR5 was expected, but the way contacts are handled certainly makes me question some of the decisions made for SRM. I apologize in advance if this comes across as a rant, as I am just a little frustrated with the way I perceive this particular part of SRM having been handled.

That being said, I still look forward to playing, but I will be cursing every time my high-armor character gets knocked unconcious due to stun damage; in fact, I would like to make a request for characters to be able to invest in stock, because my character will need a lot of stim patches! :D

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #39 on: <09-20-13/0552:43> »
1. How much extra do you have to pay per extra dice?
What's on page 418 also applies to contacts. See page 388, "If you’re willing to sweeten the deal for the potential trading partner, let your contact know in advance".

2. How do you round dice rolls when buying hits?
Exactly as it says, you divide by four and round down. So every 4 whole dice becomes 1 hit, meaning 16 to 19 dice all buy 4 hits.

3. As a follow-up to the above, what effect (if any) does tieing the availability vs Swag test (page 388) have?
Tying doubles the delivery time involved. For a PC that means they have to mark off twice as much time on their Calendar, for a Contact it simply means it takes that much time before the PC gets it. See page 418, "If you tie in the test, you find the gear, but the delivery time is twice that listed on the table." This is of course the time required to obtain the item, you then have to recover a week after the surgery in Missions.

4. If yes to 3, how does delivery times work in SRM; as per usual according to page 418?
Correct. See here for confirmation.

5. Can you initiate a Swag test with a contact before you have the cash (i.e. Payable on Delivery), or do you have to wait until you have the funds available to do so (i.e. Payable on Order)?
There is no specific rule regarding it but given how delivery time is only 1 week for anything the PC will ever be able to buy, 2 weeks on a tie, I don't see why you'd bother ordering it earlier.

I'm also surprised that the change to using a contacts Connection and Loyalty in place of Negotiation and Charisma was made, particularly when all the contacts we have at our disposal at character generation are fully statted.
Look at it this way: A PC obtaining an Elven Fixer could claim 9 Negotiation + 7 Charisma for 16 dice without Connection bonus. In fact every PC would try to obtain Elven contacts for the extra 2 dice. Meanwhile, if someone picked a contact that's not on the sample list it's impossible to figure out the Charisma and Negotiation it should have. Plus there's no specific rules for what a specific contact gets as bonus on gear that a Fixer can get you, which would need adding to compensate for people using a generic fixer for everything since those have the highest Negotiation. And technically players aren't supposed to know the stats of their contacts to begin with.

On top of that, it'd result in that everyone would get the same 1 or 2 contacts. Here's their dice: 13, 12, 16, 14, 12, 12, 11, 13, 19, 12, 14.* The 16 and 19 dice would be the only ones taken, with the 19 dice taken by anyone who wants high-availability stuff and thus only has to pay 25% more for up to and including 23 availability. Krime Cannon, really high ware, fully-specced Full Body Armor which thus still has its full 15 Capacity left that way,  fully specced helmet (VE3, TGV, VM, SL = 20R), 10-damage Tranq Patches, high-rating high-grade ware, anyone who'd ever want any of those would take Sarah Silverleaf, which ends up rather monotonous. Heck, if Connection adds to the dice she'd have 24 to begin with, can you imagine having her at 5/4 with full use of Connection+Loyalty+Negotiation+Charisma for anything under availability 32? That'd be overkill to the max.

*: This is assuming Connection only raises the limit under the base rules. Bull ruled Connection adds as Bonus Dice because of the using of Buying Hits and low dice ratings with the Connection+Loyalty system. As such, with Charisma+Negotiation he'd likely not let them add bonus dice.

Now let's assume you ran a few runs and sold intel to the same 5/2 Contact every time. That puts you at 5/4 which likely is the limit, meaning it's 50% more for anything under availability 20, so 72k for a Pain Editor. This is assuming you do not score Availability Discount favors in any way throughout Season 5.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #40 on: <09-20-13/0604:16> »
Michael, thanks for an exhaustive reply, very much appreciated; clears up a lot of my questions, and does address some of my obvious frustration. As mentioned, the system just hits a little close to home when the character type that is most hit by Availability limitations (and thus cash limitations) are those that need it most to be cost effective. A high-armor character (as opposed to the ridiculously fast one who just dodges bullets instead of taking them to the chest) will statistically quickly succumb to stun damage, with few ways of countering this (Pain Editor being the most obvious and most effective).

Also, I did no even know you could create your own contacts :) I figured you would always use the base stats of the contacts in SR5 or the SRM sample contacts; learn something new every day.

Also also, selling intel and gaining availability discount favours is a thing? I've only GMed the first 6 SRM Season 2 missions so far, and nothing like that has come up yet that would apply in these cases (max availability of 15 mentioned in those rules),

Again, thanks for elaborating; cheers!

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #41 on: <09-20-13/0618:27> »
Also also, selling intel and gaining availability discount favours is a thing? I've only GMed the first 6 SRM Season 2 missions so far, and nothing like that has come up yet that would apply in these cases (max availability of 15 mentioned in those rules),
I haven't got the foggiest, since I haven't seen SR5 Missions yet.

Now in Season 4, the players got to sell Artefacts to either of the four interested parties and increase their Loyalty. In Season 5, we got 4 corp Johnsons as well and they want intel to help them claim land in Chicago. So reason begs that we'll have the same situation in Season 5, where you frequently can suck up to a corporate Johnson by selling them what they want and thus raise Loyalty and obtain Faction Points. Note that this wasn't just selling intel (aside from selling info to either of the two journalists in the Ork Underground storyline) but actually selling them what the run was all about.

In Season 4 the faction favors included a one-time discount on an item. I don't know what exactly the faction favors entail in Season 5.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #42 on: <09-20-13/0626:29> »
I see light at the end of the tunnel! It's the Pain (Editor) Train coming, choooo chooo! *coughs*

Eherm. Thanks again, Michael, did not know about those (as we've still got another 19+12 missions in Season 2 and 3 before Season 4 :) )

The Masked Ferret

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« Reply #43 on: <09-20-13/0814:42> »
So far I have not seen anything that makes much more available in season 5, other than 1 place that has everything avail 6 or less available all the time. And one CMP from firing line that you can get access to one item of any availability at cost, if you make the right choices.

There are no factions in season 5. So, no faction rewards.

If you are creating a character, you will probably want 2 fixer contacts: a 6/1 and a 1/6 (Loyalty/Connection). The 6/1 is for fencing the stuff you steal (6 loyalty will buy at 30%), the 1/6 is for buying stuff (starts with 13 dice, and you can possibly earn their loyalty up to 4, for a 4/6 contact that will stay with your character even when the invariable change in venues for season 6 happens.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #44 on: <09-20-13/0824:37> »
Raising Loyalty is really hard to do, though, when it comes to non-Missions contacts.

No Factions? Well that indeed is a big change.
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