Shadowrun

Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: A.A. Salati on <09-24-10/0824:42>

Title: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: A.A. Salati on <09-24-10/0824:42>
Cap legwork successes for Data Searches at 1 below maximum for anything not directly related to the Matrix.

If you can learn things about a company's IPO for example with 0-4 successes (with 4 giving you the best, most secretive tidbits), Data Search can only potentially yield 3 successes worth of info.

This increases dependence on contacts, makes contacts more valuable, and spreads out legwork so that a hacker with a huge Data Search dice pool doesn't become the sole source of research.  This also deals with players who want to take advantage of earning free contacts in game to spend those BP on other things and skip starting with contacts.
Title: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: KarmaInferno on <09-24-10/1019:51>
I will have to say that in all the many many tables of Shadowrun I've played, I've had maybe two that saw a character with a Data Search dice pool of more than 6.




-k
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Bull on <09-24-10/1513:22>
OK, had this split off, as this is something that won;t be covered in teh FAQ specifically...

Have you seen the Legwork test charts from the Dawn of the Artifacts adventures?  They use a new style of Legwork chart.  They have Contacts hit results, and Data Search hit results.  Since Data Searches are both free, and you can do them automated via agents as an extended test very easily, but you're sifting through a lot more extraneous data, you need more hits via Data Search than you do via straight Contact work.  Plus, yes, it's possible that some of the highest level of data you cannot find in the Matrix.

We're copying that format for Season 4.  When possible, we use the official style and rules :)

Bull
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Bull on <09-24-10/1516:31>
I will have to say that in all the many many tables of Shadowrun I've played, I've had maybe two that saw a character with a Data Search dice pool of more than 6.

-k

On the other hand, if you have a hacker of any sort in your group (And I've actually run with more hackers that full time faces), they're throwing 12+ dice.  It's not unusual for our current hacker to get 15+ hits on his extended data search tests.

And even with 6 dice, if you're rolling at the table, you're averaging 4-5 hits on the extended test, before you're out of dice.  Which is enough to cap out most Legwork tests in the current format (Which treats Data Search and normal Contact Legwork the same).

Bull
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: A.A. Salati on <09-24-10/1521:13>
Exactly, and I took this private.  It's an extended test so even a non-hacker can get a big dice pool.  Excellent news about the DOTA style.
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Deacon on <09-24-10/1852:27>
Not having run Missions beyond the first few adventures (SRM00), I didn't realize that background information obtainable through legwork and data search were the same thing.  Data search isn't going to find you the same kind of information, IMO; Data Search relies on said information being on the Matrix in the first place.  Sometimes personal information or eyewitness reports are going to be unobtainable through data searches -- but contacts might have that information passed to them from word-of-mouth.

And that's a major part of the cyberpunk milieu, the human factor in the stories about the high-tech and the dystopian setting.  Contacts aren't just there to provide a simple method for obtaining gear or information; they're people your character knows and trusts to some extent. 

I seem to recall writing information tables for separate contact types -- your street-level Fixer isn't going to know the same information that your corporate researcher or Lone Star beat officer will know.  They might even have different takes on the information; they're almost certainly going to have different viewpoints.

-Deacon
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: etherial on <11-12-10/1109:32>
I didn't realize that background information obtainable through legwork and data search were the same thing.  Data search isn't going to find you the same kind of information, IMO; Data Search relies on said information being on the Matrix in the first place.  Sometimes personal information or eyewitness reports are going to be unobtainable through data searches -- but contacts might have that information passed to them from word-of-mouth.

Data Search is not separate from Legwork - Data Search is the primary form of Legwork. You search for information that has been posted about the topic as well as for people who seem to be holding back about the topic. Sure, your Contacts might know someone or something, but someone out there in the Matrix definitely knows something.
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: farothel on <03-21-11/1455:10>
Our GM goes with a 3:1 ratio.  3 hits on datasearch gives 1 hit on the legwork tables.  Also the sometimes limited amount of time you sometimes have for legwork can limit the amount of times you can roll to get those extra hits.
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Man Who Walks At Night on <03-21-11/1623:09>
Data Search is not separate from Legwork - Data Search is the primary form of Legwork. You search for information that has been posted about the topic as well as for people who seem to be holding back about the topic. Sure, your Contacts might know someone or something, but someone out there in the Matrix definitely knows something.

I have to disagree here. Yes Data Search is part of Legwork, but its definately NOT the primary part, Legwork, the very term Legwork is associated with detectives (either private or in law-enforcement) using their legs to do the work, aka, walking from contact to contact, looking for witnesses, people who heard something etc. I realize Shadowrun takes place in a cyberpunk setting with more advanced computer networks than today - but there is still a lot of information you will never be able to find in the matrix. Sure looking up who owns Corp A is a data search, but finding the old lady with the cat who happened to see the 2 gangers mugging Mr Joe in redmond barrens last night - will not be on the matrix.

Matrix information can be gotten from contacts (who might have happened upon the data when they last used one of those website roulette functions that tosses you to a random site, or who can do the search for you)

But..

The reverse is definitely not always true.

I just use common sense on deciding if searching the matrix can give the information - sometimes it can, sometimes it cannot.

You are who you know, not how fast you can type :P

Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: DWC on <03-21-11/1756:28>
In a world infested with self-important morons and social networking software, all the information in the world that used to only be available by walking down the street to talk to someone IS now going to be available on the matrix because the people who know it will write about it in hopes that it will give them their fifteen picoseconds of fame.  Things people used to keep secret are now posted to Youtube in the fevered hope that the single interesting moment of their life will "go viral" and become a meme for three days.
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Man Who Walks At Night on <03-21-11/1811:36>
In a world infested with self-important morons and social networking software, all the information in the world that used to only be available by walking down the street to talk to someone IS now going to be available on the matrix because the people who know it will write about it in hopes that it will give them their fifteen picoseconds of fame.  Things people used to keep secret are now posted to Youtube in the fevered hope that the single interesting moment of their life will "go viral" and become a meme for three days.

For a lot of information this is true. But there is still people in the sixth world who just minds their own business and rarely use a trid set for more than watch re-runs of Dallas in 3D. Add to this that information is money, this alone means anything worth knowing is either not going to be found on the net - or protected so fiercely that its a run in itself to get it.

The old lady with the cats from my example is not likely to blog about seeing a couple of gangers beating a guy. 1) She doesn't blog (or use you-tube :P) 2) It could be dangerous for her to speak up about it, but a discrete visit from a couple of runners might get her talking, big difference on what people will say publicly and what you can convince (in various way...) them to say in private.

I'm of the mind that most information which is more than raw data or statistics will still require the runners to do some old fashioned legwork, of course, that is just my take on the Sixth World, and yours may differ :)
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: DWC on <03-21-11/1903:42>
Maybe I have a skewed perspective after spending 4 hours in company mandated Social Networking Awareness training today, though I've always had a dim and condescending view of social networking as a whole.  The little old lady with the cat is now on Facebook looking at pictures of her grandkids, who've forgotten that grandma can also see the pictures of them drunk at their first college party. 

In 60 years, why wouldn't she have sent a picture of someone getting beaten up to the other people in her knitting circle (commenting, "look at the sad state of the world"), including someone who's not actually a little old lady but instead is a 24 year old market research analyst for a company that makes neoprene gloves for knitters with arthritic hands.  He sends the picture to some of his friends from college, and one of them posts it to www.worldsmostonesidedfistfights.com, forgetting to strip out the timestamp and the GSP tag that the camera embedded in the file.

Three days later, the image recognition software in your Browse program matches the picture of the victim to someone who failed to show up to make a delivery of a bag of Vory-owned BTLs, cross references the GPS tag and time stamp, and flags the video.  Now, you know who beat the hell out of this guy, when it happened, and, once you find the security camera outside her building, can grab the image of the thrill seekers jumping into his car and driving away.  Again, facial recognition matches one of the attackers up with his picture in an article about him winning the Academic Decathalon, which gives you his name, age, neighborhood, and the name of his high school.
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Man Who Walks At Night on <03-22-11/0620:38>
Maybe I have a skewed perspective after spending 4 hours in company mandated Social Networking Awareness training today, though I've always had a dim and condescending view of social networking as a whole.  The little old lady with the cat is now on Facebook looking at pictures of her grandkids, who've forgotten that grandma can also see the pictures of them drunk at their first college party. 

In 60 years, why wouldn't she have sent a picture of someone getting beaten up to the other people in her knitting circle (commenting, "look at the sad state of the world"), including someone who's not actually a little old lady but instead is a 24 year old market research analyst for a company that makes neoprene gloves for knitters with arthritic hands.  He sends the picture to some of his friends from college, and one of them posts it to www.worldsmostonesidedfistfights.com, forgetting to strip out the timestamp and the GSP tag that the camera embedded in the file.

Three days later, the image recognition software in your Browse program matches the picture of the victim to someone who failed to show up to make a delivery of a bag of Vory-owned BTLs, cross references the GPS tag and time stamp, and flags the video.  Now, you know who beat the hell out of this guy, when it happened, and, once you find the security camera outside her building, can grab the image of the thrill seekers jumping into his car and driving away.  Again, facial recognition matches one of the attackers up with his picture in an article about him winning the Academic Decathalon, which gives you his name, age, neighborhood, and the name of his high school.

All valid - I think we will just have to agree that we obviously have different opinions on how widespread social networking is in the sixth world :)
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Sichr on <03-22-11/1619:54>
Maybe I have a skewed perspective after spending 4 hours in company mandated Social Networking Awareness training today, though I've always had a dim and condescending view of social networking as a whole.  The little old lady with the cat is now on Facebook looking at pictures of her grandkids, who've forgotten that grandma can also see the pictures of them drunk at their first college party. 

In 60 years, why wouldn't she have sent a picture of someone getting beaten up to the other people in her knitting circle (commenting, "look at the sad state of the world"), including someone who's not actually a little old lady but instead is a 24 year old market research analyst for a company that makes neoprene gloves for knitters with arthritic hands.  He sends the picture to some of his friends from college, and one of them posts it to www.worldsmostonesidedfistfights.com, forgetting to strip out the timestamp and the GSP tag that the camera embedded in the file.

Three days later, the image recognition software in your Browse program matches the picture of the victim to someone who failed to show up to make a delivery of a bag of Vory-owned BTLs, cross references the GPS tag and time stamp, and flags the video.  Now, you know who beat the hell out of this guy, when it happened, and, once you find the security camera outside her building, can grab the image of the thrill seekers jumping into his car and driving away.  Again, facial recognition matches one of the attackers up with his picture in an article about him winning the Academic Decathalon, which gives you his name, age, neighborhood, and the name of his high school.

Inspiring :)
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: KarmaInferno on <03-22-11/2316:50>
Heh. My rigger adept has the Media Junkie flaw and the Multitasking adept power specifically so she can be checking her MyTwitBook account in the middle of combat without interrupting her actions.

:)



-k
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Wasabi on <03-24-11/0640:27>
KarmaInferno, you rock sir. *golfclap*
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Redwulfe on <03-30-11/1046:36>
I have to disagree, not that KarmaInferno rocks that fact is obvious, but to the fact that Data search can be used to replace your legwork. simply because of human nature. If someone was shot in my ally, and i saw it, and it was perpetrated by local gang members that are know to cause trouble, even kill others, in my neighbor hood, I would never think that it would be wise to blog about it. In fact if that is the type of neighborhood I live in I would know better than to open myself up to getting shot. "Material witness found dead, news at 11:00." Shadowrun is even more dangerousness and thee are things that can not be found on the matrix. If the world you live in is a world that has such easy access to information then one camera shot and the next thing you know every thing about you would easily be found. Shadowrunner could not exist in this type of a world. They need anonymity to survive and everything that is done is on the matrix would mean that anyone could find you at any time as well. why be in a business that you are guaranteed to get killed or arrested in.

Red
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: KarmaInferno on <03-31-11/0040:50>
You make the assumption that people are smart and don't do foolish things.

That is manifestly incorrect.

Just take a look at how many people just scatter their personal information all over the damn internet without even thinking about it. Even after being warned repeatedly not to do so.

Hell, I have to stop my dad, who has been in the computer industry for decades, from clicking on strange interweb pop-ups.

Now, I might limit the amount and type of legwork obtainable with just Data Search, but they should be able to get some stuff.

Then I will make my evil GM laugh as their incomplete Data Search legwork leads them to completely wrong conclusions about their current run and results in all sort of trouble for them.

I almost never tell my players, "No, you can't do that". They have, however, learned that some stuff carries consequences, and if the GM is smiling it's already too late.



-k
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Redwulfe on <03-31-11/1250:52>
Actually I am making the assumption that people in dangerous situations are more paranoid than foolish.

Many a cop has seen neighborhoods clam up and not talk about a crime that has happened rather than face the consiquences for retribution from local gangs. This of course has become less and less over the years but it still happens on occasion. Add to this the fact that in the world of shadow run it is more dangerous and there are areas that the cops don't go at all, which are basically war zones and I think that this will happen more often.

Now I do be leave that in the modern day it is easy to find anything on the Internet, though somethings are still really hard to find, it does not mean that secrets are posted over the matrix in the shadow run world where those leaks are plugged up by killing the person who leaked it. That's why we have contacts that can get us information that you couldn't get by just looking the info up on the net.

Like contacts data search information should depend on where you search. I really liked the anatomy of a shadow run from the new toolkit. After the hacker could not pull up any info on the matrix on the marks hideout he did a search on a hackers website. He had the connection to make data search more useful.

I guess I don't have that many problems with data search becoming as good as others wish it to be, except in one glaring facet. If data search can get us every thing we need to know then information contacts become useless and there is no need to buy or pay them.


As an example, I had a game where we sat down to make characters together, as I often like for creating complementary characters, and one of the players wanted to play the face. He wanted to buy several contacts to be his information network so he could be really useful duringbthe legwork phase of the run. It was going to be his thing. Another player asked if it was alright to pick up data search for him self and I said sure. When we started playing the character with uber data search wished to be able to find all the info on everything using this secondary trick and completely overshadow the player that spent a lot of resource to build his information monger. My ruling is I would not allow data search in this fashion based on my comments above. That player was so upset he quit the game. I tried to point out that data search was still a us full skill and would allow him to use it to make team work bonuses to the info character, but he wanted to do the job of info monger on very cheap points and overshadow the contact character. I realize that the player was not in the cooperative spirit that I try to foster in the game and just let him go. We went on to have a lot of fun in the game.

I guess this one incident always colors my judgement of data search.

I feel that it has a place but contacts should not be overshadowed as research methods by it. To maintain this balance I do not let sensitive information to hit the matrix unless it is necessary to keep the story moving forward, and the party usually hears a news report about the leak ending up punished or dead, to keep the feel of a world that this would be the case.

Red
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Bull on <04-05-11/1408:08>
The discussion is good.  And a lot of good points are raised.

Generally, I leave it up to the author to decide the results of the legwork tests, though I may offer up suggestions.  I tell them to keep in mind that sometimes, not everything can be found online, especially more...  personal and private stuff.  But a lot of stuff can be, and sometimes all of it can be.  So we mix it up.

Some Missions groups may not have a face, and may have to rely on the Hacker to do all the Legwork via the Matrix.  As such, we don;t want to penalize that group too harshly.

Bull
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: John Shull on <04-10-11/0816:34>
It is really hard to have a rules structure for information gathering without it understanding that information gathering is itself a art and a science.  You pull everything the matrix has on someone you are looking at raw data. If you for some reason cannot get the net to coff it up on command your limited to the databases within your evil clutches.   You then apply your parameters and then much of it falls back except what is pertinent.  You talk to those connected and it gets trickier as you interview, cojole, interrogate, question, and negotiate information from people.  People have information subjective from their perspective and it depends on how you ask to what you might get.  My point is that the PC is most subjective part of the investagation as his clues gathered are only what he could gather from the situation he is in.  In Shadowrun you can customize your gun, your martial arts style, your car, and your lifestyle in nice neat ways.  Your investagator however doesn't really get that refinement.  He cannot be a lie detector like Lightman on the show Lie to Me, an astute criminal writer like Castle, or a fast talking criminal like Cafferty on White Collar.  Actually you can be characters like those but they are funneled into legwork senario in a clumsy way.  Rules just don't adequately cover what these people can do in working the art of detecting.  So you have a long talk with the DM and see what he can work out with you til the rules catch up.
Title: Re: Data Search & Legwork
Post by: Blond Goth Girl on <04-13-11/2222:13>
I actually made skills for the Lie to Me types and Sherlocks (seriously - I have a Sherlock skill group). 

For data search, my thing is it's out there.  Think of how much info is on the web now when you google.  Basically, you need a lot of successes to filter it out.  You can't read 7M docs.  I make players think - no matter what you roll a search for "brown beads," won't work.  Now when players think and data search with a search term like Catholic rosary beads cursed circa 1522 - they have automatically found the answer assuming that was the right question.  The dice roll is to determine in game time how quickly they got it.