[Shadowjack]

I think that's pretty reasonable, Lacynth40. You make a good point regarding the gray area although these extra rules are not even printed in the core book afaik. The repercussions are extreme and potentially game ruining if taken too far. Personally, I don't like the idea of a gm handing out these qualities to me against my will. I like to think that cyberware is a balancing point for cyber vs adept and adepts don't take any ruinous negative qualities in this manner yet they can go on an continue to gain adept powers. I think it would be cooler  if heavily cybered characters could have very bad things happen to them but it's still repairable.  My plan is to get the best grade of cyberware I can and go down to .1 essence for  the full experience.

[KarmaInferno]

Hey, do what ya like.

Just reminding you that Shadowrun is not like most other roleplaying games. In other games, flashy combat monsters are a good thing. In Shadowrun, they tend to get dead.



-k

[Lacynth40]

Yep, it's yer game. Feel free to explore the world to your liking. I just like a bit more grit in mine. As for the adepts, oh, they get hosed quite a bit, if they just concentrate on being physical monsters. Like, people tend to forget that awakened characters shine just a little bit more on the astral plane than mundanes do. An adept that can't fight back in the astral is going to have a bad day if they run into any vicious spirits...

[Critias]

The body DIES if it has too much cyberware installed. And you tell me there is no gray area between being just fine, and DYING because there isn't enough meat to sustain you?

Well, yes.  Because there's a very strict definition of "too much cyberware," and it's whenever you hit or pass up 0.00 Essence.  Period.  There are options in place for a more detailed degradation (choosing to take the various immune system flaws, or a cyberpsychosis, or whatever), but any GM that just arbitrarily slapped 'em onto a player without at least forewarning them is being kind of douchey about it.  I'm a big fan of adepts (a bigger fan than most, I'd wager), but there's no need to randomly hose a street sammie like that, either, in my book.  Both builds come with some downsides already installed, tacking on new ones is just showing some favoritism and likely to breed player resentment.  Having someone's "meat start rejecting...in weird ways" is just randomly screwing a player who has already satisfied the rules for some gear (paying the nuyen cost and Essence cost), IMHO.

There's no such thing as almost a cyberzombie.  You either are (negative Essence and crazy rituals and such), or you aren't.  In a world of gray morality, there are still some very stark white/black yes/no situations.  Positive versus negative Essence is one of those things, where the rules are concerned.  Low (but positive) Essence has been used as a justification in the past for describing some folks as crazy, sure, but there's no rule that says it HAS to happen.   

Some folks can skate on thin ice (sub-1.0 Essence) just fine, others freak the hell out and turn into slasher-flick monsters when they first get cyberoptics and some spurs installed.  As far as the rules are concerned, it can go either way.

[Crash_00]

Gotta agree with Critias here. Essence is used as a balancing factor in the game mechanics. As a GM you can hand out negative qualities when warranted, but I've always taken it to be more of the enemies, dulled senses, in debt, ect that arise from botched runs or damage to a person.

Handing out negative qualities because a character is following the rules of balance for his character type (augmented) is way too extreme to me. If the player wants to be experiencing those qualities he can take them at any time also.

Do you hand out negative qualities to Mages or Adepts that have a six or higher Magic just because they're gaining a high score in that balancing area? This just feels like a kneejerk reaction to the character type.

[Medicineman]

And negative qualities CAN be handed out during gameplay if the GM thinks you deserve it.

sure, he can also give free positive Ones ,but that

I get someone that hands me a cyber-monster, and he doesn't AT LEAST have Cyberware Compatibility, he can expect that eventually, his meat is gonna start rejecting some of those in some bad ways.

is pure GM's Fiat because it is by NO WAY backed up by the Rules !

And you tell me there is no gray area between being just fine, and DYING because there isn't enough meat to sustain you? Sorry, but I don't buy it.

Its not me thats telling this ,its RAW
Me I'm saying that its perfectly OK to take these disadvantages(I do so frequently) but that its not mandatory

The body DIES if it has too much cyberware installed.

its not the Body ,its the Soul !!

Hough!
Medicineman

[Sengir]

Me I'm saying that its perfectly OK to take these disadvantages(I do so frequently) but that its not mandatory

Of course it's not mandatory, SR4 rules mostly don't tell you that you HAVE to play your character in a certain way, but that does not absolve a player from having to act out his character.

Even with a decent Essence score (Deltaware + Adapsin + ...), if somebody is can rip off your arm and beat you to pulp with it, or smell antshit a few kilometers upwind, I expect him to have a somewhat different attitude to "normal" teammates - mothering, arrogant, ashamed of himself, whatever.

PS: And because it's really hurting my eyes, the word is spelled s-u-r-e

[Stahlseele]

And it's not "the soul" beacause that does not EXIST in SR . .
Else, Ancestor Spirits are the Souls of the deceased . .
And as such, Necromancy would work just fine too . .
Including reanimation/resurrection by binding Spirits into Bodies.

ESSENCE IS JUST A BALANCING TOOL, NOTHING MORE!

It IS the body slowly dieing from ware-overload. Nothing else.
Cyber-Zombies get cancer and necrosis in the fleshy bits after all.

And usually, over the top characters DO act over the top too . .
If i am Bullet-Proof, i will help people with heavy pistols aiming at me.
And then show them how it's done after having caught the bullet with my left eye-lid.
If i can shoot arrows through tanks, I WILL SHOOT ARROWS THROUGH TANKS!
And so on, and so on . .
Maybe not all the time, but it WILL happen. Because this is WHY such characters are MADE.
TO
BE
AWESOME!
DOT COM!

[Medicineman]

if somebody is can rip off your arm and beat you to pulp with it, or smell antshit a few kilometers upwind, I expect him to have a somewhat different attitude to "normal" teammates - mothering, arrogant, ashamed of himself, whatever.
I hope You also insist on a different attitude from a Mage or Technomancer ? Because these might far more removed from normal  feelings & emotions than a Char with <1 Essence !

PS: And because it's really hurting my eyes, the word is spelled s-u-r-e
Its corrected for sure

Hough !
Medicineman

[freddieflatline]

In Cyberpunk there were rules for getting your character therapy for cyberpsychosis.  You get to go into immersion therapy using brain dance and pet bunnies for a couple of months.  I used to let my players do that to get back some of their humanity.  You could probably mod the rules so that SR4 characters could buy off their character's cyberpsychosis.

[Critias]

In Cyberpunk there were rules for getting your character therapy for cyberpsychosis.  You get to go into immersion therapy using brain dance and pet bunnies for a couple of months.  I used to let my players do that to get back some of their humanity.  You could probably mod the rules so that SR4 characters could buy off their character's cyberpsychosis.

But there's no mod to the SR4 rules necessary for that.  Taking cyberpsychosis in the first place is entirely optional (it's a Negative Quality that you can choose to purchase, or not to), and there are existing rules for buying off Negative Qualities during gameplay.  I'd say therapy isn't a bad way to role-play out buying that Negative Quality off, but there's no need to "mod the rules" to let it happen; the rules are already there.  Cyberpsychosis is just another Negative Quality, and the rules already handle it.

[FastJack]

Fun Fact #549:

When I did a d20 Shadowrun a few years (okay, okay, a decade ago), instead of creating an Essence for the character, I multiplied Essence Cost by 3 and you subtracted it from your Charisma score. Social 'ware gave their benefits to checks and skills, without enhancing the score.

So the more 'ware you had, the lower your Charisma went and the more you became 'shunned' by the common people when dealing with them. (Intimidation was the only thing unaffected).

[CanRay]

D20 causes cancer you know.  You should get yourself checked out, FastJack.

...

Hey, just be glad I didn't use the option suggested by the Paranoia series. 

[bigity]

Making Shadowrun D20 causes you to be shunned more than being a cyberzombie

[Lacynth40]

Quick question. What DOES a lower Essence get you, in RAW. Just so I'm crystal clear.