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Magic in SR6?

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #45 on: <07-09-19/2333:01> »
I’m not sure the existence of sustaining focuses or quickening means super buffed mages in itself. With the right limitations that doesn’t have to occur.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #46 on: <07-10-19/0023:03> »
Incidentally I think we're getting too close to breaking NDA here since this conversation requires rule quotes including from sections that changed since SR5 and aren't spoiled yet. So maybe we should table it for now or continue in the demo team agent forum to discuss if we need an SRM decision.  :-\ :-X
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Marcus

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« Reply #47 on: <07-10-19/0050:52> »
I’m not sure the existence of sustaining focuses or quickening means super buffed mages in itself. With the right limitations that doesn’t have to occur.

Just for the record I said magical boosted stats not super buffed mages. If the attribute booster spells exist and the ability to extend duration exists. Then I think the eventual result is fairly obvious. If you take steps to lock that out that’s probably game on SR magic. Maybe not if something replaces it, but I wouldn’t want to be the one explaining it.  That said extent is a real question.
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #48 on: <07-10-19/0536:19> »
I'm less worried about how it balances out for Karl 'The Kaster' Drago looking at the rules saying I'll break you, and how it balances out for an solid-but-not-min/maxed runner. No matter how well you try to make the rules Karl will find the loop-holes that let him break the game. More so then other archetypes awakened need to have a good player/GM confab to make sure everyone is on the same page with what is and isn't the level of campaign you're building. If the player insists on constantly OPing your game with their mage just remember the ol' adage, "Anything you can do the Corps can do better. They can do everything better then you." Magic users are supposed to be fairly rare in world, but you can bet if Karl is going around being a magical mass murderer and terrorist, a High Threat Response Team with a bunch of mages and adepts with spirit backup will come to remove him from existence.

Also something that I haven't seen mentioned for spirits. All the talk so far seems to treat them like disposable drones, which just strikes me as wrong. Spirits are living, reasoning beings, and aren't just going to blindly follow the full intent of commands. They can (and probably will if the mage has a bad rap in the spirit world) twist the orders they're given to something the mage never intended, wasting favors and shortening their service.

Finstersang

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« Reply #49 on: <07-10-19/0632:02> »
Incidentally I think we're getting too close to breaking NDA here since this conversation requires rule quotes including from sections that changed since SR5 and aren't spoiled yet. So maybe we should table it for now or continue in the demo team agent forum to discuss if we need an SRM decision.  :-\ :-X

Wild guess: Attribute Enhancement spells now explicitly state that they don´t increase drain soak? Because that would be the most obvious solution to this (TBH, kinda under-exposed) problem of previous Editions.

Anyways, I´m more worried about Spiritrun. So far, I´ve seen nothing that tells me that the writers have even understood where the problems with spirits are (instant "reloadability", durability, power scaling...). If anything, spirits seem to be balanced even worse now:
  • Spells get a fixed rating , but spirits still have linear power scaling.
  • The effect of armor is greatly reduced, along with damage codes, but spirits still have their flat damage reduction against nonmagical attacks, likely making them even more impossible to take out.
  • Spirit armies are now possible without binding and material investment.
  • While changes to the summoning roll make reckless summoning a lot harder, drain is also more reliable now, making instant resummoning in the battle less risky.

I can´t think of many things anything that would even this out right now. Mandatory Material/Reagent costs for summoning spirits in the first place or - godforbidd! - additional requirements and restrictions based on the summoner´s tradition instead of UMT streamlining, maybe. But I´m sure we would have already heard about any changes in this direction...
« Last Edit: <07-10-19/0811:28> by Finstersang »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #50 on: <07-10-19/0925:49> »
I’m not sure the existence of sustaining focuses or quickening means super buffed mages in itself. With the right limitations that doesn’t have to occur.

Just for the record I said magical boosted stats not super buffed mages. If the attribute booster spells exist and the ability to extend duration exists. Then I think the eventual result is fairly obvious. If you take steps to lock that out that’s probably game on SR magic. Maybe not if something replaces it, but I wouldn’t want to be the one explaining it.  That said extent is a real question.

Well assuming they didn’t read the rules wrong we already know focussed concentration handles up to 3 spells at least. So that covers a lot of stats. Past that I think we are talking super buffed mage zone.

Something like reflex spell, one drain stat and combat sense or reaction or intuition boost.

The “fix” seems to be scaling drain based on how many hits you use to power the spell. I think for the reflex spell they said in the play it was 5 base drain +2 for every initiative due added. I think a attribute boosts had a lower base and were +2 drain for every boost last +1. So the theoretical limiting factor is shit tons of drain. Seems like mages morning routines will be brutal.

There may be more to it than that. Like how things stack like maybe only one attribute spell can boost a single pool. So if you boost reaction/intuition and combat sense you only get the highest boost spell for dodging. I guess we will see in a month or so.

Hobbes

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« Reply #51 on: <07-10-19/0956:57> »
Seems like mages morning routines will be brutal.


Basically.  But you can build up to it slowly if you're really concerned about it.  Otherwise, wake up at Sunrise, do stuff, nap till noon.

Personally I would just skip the sustained drain stat boosts and keep Increased Reflexes on the pair of Force 6 Spirits.  If all you're doing is occasional utility and healing you don't need to buff up Drain stats.  For combat spend your actions ordering Spirits around/re-summoning.  YMMV though. 

Serbitar

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« Reply #52 on: <07-10-19/1001:48> »
I'm less worried about how it balances out for Karl 'The Kaster' Drago looking at the rules saying I'll break you, and how it balances out for an solid-but-not-min/maxed runner. No matter how well you try to make the rules Karl will find the loop-holes that let him break the game. More so then other archetypes awakened need to have a good player/GM confab to make sure everyone is on the same page with what is and isn't the level of campaign you're building. If the player insists on constantly OPing your game with their mage just remember the ol' adage, "Anything you can do the Corps can do better. They can do everything better then you." Magic users are supposed to be fairly rare in world, but you can bet if Karl is going around being a magical mass murderer and terrorist, a High Threat Response Team with a bunch of mages and adepts with spirit backup will come to remove him from existence.

Also something that I haven't seen mentioned for spirits. All the talk so far seems to treat them like disposable drones, which just strikes me as wrong. Spirits are living, reasoning beings, and aren't just going to blindly follow the full intent of commands. They can (and probably will if the mage has a bad rap in the spirit world) twist the orders they're given to something the mage never intended, wasting favors and shortening their service.

Typical example of trying to fix bad rule design by arbitrary ingame bullying.

The main problem of OP mages is not that they kill people (maybe even more than other runners, because they are more effective) but that they are taking away the fun from the other players. Same goes for too powerful spirits.
The logic to let the game world retaliate because a player used totally viable game mechanics (what is rule abuse anyway? either something is allowed or not. At what point should I feel guilty?) is just bad GMing.

If players want equally powerful characters (which might not even be the case) and the rule set does not deliver that, the only thing that helps is house rules (and a good discussion about the problem, which might result in more house rules). NOT "The Game World strikes back!".

BTW: There is such thing as rules with no loopholes. Thats what a balanced rulesystem provides. Of course you can never get that with linear rule systems (without limits). You need power laws or exponential curves in it AKA "diminishing returns".

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #53 on: <07-10-19/1005:46> »
Seems like mages morning routines will be brutal.


Basically.  But you can build up to it slowly if you're really concerned about it.  Otherwise, wake up at Sunrise, do stuff, nap till noon.

Personally I would just skip the sustained drain stat boosts and keep Increased Reflexes on the pair of Force 6 Spirits.  If all you're doing is occasional utility and healing you don't need to buff up Drain stats.  For combat spend your actions ordering Spirits around/re-summoning.  YMMV though.

In previous editions I never saw the drain stats being boosted. As combat stats were more important. Improved reflexes first, then combat sense, if there was a 3rd they might double down with deflection or reaction/intuition. But two sustaining focusses was already a lot in my games. People initiated, learned new spells, bumped skills etc.

With focussed concentration x3 I’m kind of expecting improved reflexes, improved attribute body and maybe combat sense depending on how it works in the full edition as the starting go to. Though once people deal with higher drain they may min max around that more.

Spirits depending on how powerful their attacks end up being I can see that being your go to combat action. Just to avoid dealing with drain as an alternative.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #54 on: <07-10-19/1013:20> »
Typical example of trying to fix bad rule design by arbitrary ingame bullying.

The main problem of OP mages is not that they kill people (maybe even more than other runners, because they are more effective) but that they are taking away the fun from the other players. Same goes for too powerful spirits.
The logic to let the game world retaliate because a player used totally viable game mechanics (what is rule abuse anyway? either something is allowed or not. At what point should I feel guilty?) is just bad GMing.
Players can toss around a bag of grenades in every encounter and walk around in MilSpec, and there are in-universe counters to that. 'If you cross the line, the setting supports backlash' is not bad GMing. Spirits not liking abuse is explicit in the rules, and HTR when you go around creating too big a splash is something that's always been a thing.

Going 'you got 2 dice too many so let me increase the competition' is a problem. 'You're throwing around so many high-Force Spirits that the government has taken an interest' is not.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #55 on: <07-10-19/1028:59> »
Typical example of trying to fix bad rule design by arbitrary ingame bullying.

The main problem of OP mages is not that they kill people (maybe even more than other runners, because they are more effective) but that they are taking away the fun from the other players. Same goes for too powerful spirits.
The logic to let the game world retaliate because a player used totally viable game mechanics (what is rule abuse anyway? either something is allowed or not. At what point should I feel guilty?) is just bad GMing.
Players can toss around a bag of grenades in every encounter and walk around in MilSpec, and there are in-universe counters to that. 'If you cross the line, the setting supports backlash' is not bad GMing. Spirits not liking abuse is explicit in the rules, and HTR when you go around creating too big a splash is something that's always been a thing.

Going 'you got 2 dice too many so let me increase the competition' is a problem. 'You're throwing around so many high-Force Spirits that the government has taken an interest' is not.

Even the first part is sort of a last resort imo unless the team on the whole is doing it. If it’s just the mage with stupid force fireballs or the street sam with a bag of grenades talk to the player first. I prefer not to TPK over one player.

Though for focus abuse again I preferred early editions and they had a built in setting fix. Go ahead build your focus drop karma and money and the first astral security mage who spots you on a run destroys them all and you wasted piles of karma and money. They have got harder and harder to destroy over the editions. It used to be in my games no one took a focus until they could mask it as the setting risk was too high. Now it seems people start with multiples of them in various builds I see on this forum.

That’s my hope for this edition. Make focuses easy to permanently destroy again. Make active focuses the turning on your wireless with a crap comlink for defense for mages instead of turning on your wireless but with firewall 20.

Lormyr

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« Reply #56 on: <07-10-19/1115:45> »
The chargen step describing spending leftover karma lists 3 things you may spend karma on.  Initiation isn't one of them.

Edit: Technically 4 things, including converting karma to nuyen.  Still, initiation isn't one of the 4 things.

See, I read it that way at first as well, but I later decided that I couldn't have understood that reading accurately because all of the magically active premades do not abide by that reading. The Adept has more pp than possible, the combat mage has 2 more spells than possible, and the street shaman has 5 more spells than possible without being able to purchase them directly.

Therefore the only reading that makes sense to me is the final line of (paraphrasing) "see the chart for how much the stuff you can spend karma on costs". That interpretation is supported by the first sentence under character advancement section.

As far as what is actually intended I couldn't begin to speculate.

Existing I assumed. If they are as abusable as before is what Ive been wondering.

They are every bit as unbalanced as before.
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Marcus

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« Reply #57 on: <07-10-19/1342:39> »
Something like reflex spell, one drain stat and combat sense or reaction or intuition boost.
Initiative booster, drain stat, and probably Rec/Int or possibly Body.

Would be my guess, it was already mentioned on here that combat sense no longer increase defense pool so that spell is DOA in 6.

Defense is always better then Soak. But as we seem to swinging similar sized die pools in 6e compared 5e with about 2/3 to 1/2 the damage and 1/8 of the soak. With something like 1/3 or 1/4 of the action economy, which just means wiggle room on combat is gonna be really small.

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Marcus

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« Reply #58 on: <07-10-19/1349:30> »
The chargen step describing spending leftover karma lists 3 things you may spend karma on.  Initiation isn't one of them.

Edit: Technically 4 things, including converting karma to nuyen.  Still, initiation isn't one of the 4 things.

See, I read it that way at first as well, but I later decided that I couldn't have understood that reading accurately because all of the magically active premades do not abide by that reading. The Adept has more pp than possible, the combat mage has 2 more spells than possible, and the street shaman has 5 more spells than possible without being able to purchase them directly.

Therefore the only reading that makes sense to me is the final line of (paraphrasing) "see the chart for how much the stuff you can spend karma on costs". That interpretation is supported by the first sentence under character advancement section.

As far as what is actually intended I couldn't begin to speculate.

Existing I assumed. If they are as abusable as before is what Ive been wondering.

They are every bit as unbalanced as before.

I find very re-assuring to know something don't change. LOL Example Character are always a problem it seems.

In 5e No initiation in creation had to be specific errata in, as I think most regulars on here are probably aware of that. Sounds like 6 has the same issue. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it got missed.
 
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Moonshine Fox

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« Reply #59 on: <07-10-19/1806:29> »
I'm less worried about how it balances out for Karl 'The Kaster' Drago looking at the rules saying I'll break you, and how it balances out for an solid-but-not-min/maxed runner. No matter how well you try to make the rules Karl will find the loop-holes that let him break the game. More so then other archetypes awakened need to have a good player/GM confab to make sure everyone is on the same page with what is and isn't the level of campaign you're building. If the player insists on constantly OPing your game with their mage just remember the ol' adage, "Anything you can do the Corps can do better. They can do everything better then you." Magic users are supposed to be fairly rare in world, but you can bet if Karl is going around being a magical mass murderer and terrorist, a High Threat Response Team with a bunch of mages and adepts with spirit backup will come to remove him from existence.

Also something that I haven't seen mentioned for spirits. All the talk so far seems to treat them like disposable drones, which just strikes me as wrong. Spirits are living, reasoning beings, and aren't just going to blindly follow the full intent of commands. They can (and probably will if the mage has a bad rap in the spirit world) twist the orders they're given to something the mage never intended, wasting favors and shortening their service.

Typical example of trying to fix bad rule design by arbitrary ingame bullying.

The main problem of OP mages is not that they kill people (maybe even more than other runners, because they are more effective) but that they are taking away the fun from the other players. Same goes for too powerful spirits.
The logic to let the game world retaliate because a player used totally viable game mechanics (what is rule abuse anyway? either something is allowed or not. At what point should I feel guilty?) is just bad GMing.

If players want equally powerful characters (which might not even be the case) and the rule set does not deliver that, the only thing that helps is house rules (and a good discussion about the problem, which might result in more house rules). NOT "The Game World strikes back!".

I'm sorry, I thought we were playing a game where characters often operate under the tagline "I kill people. For money."
"The Game World strikes back!" is what happens in literally every game ever made. You're not the only people moving in a world in stasis. If you go lobbing acid bombs into a cubical farm full of wage slaves, guards will come to arrest or put you down. Get in a bar fight with the Halloweeners cause your buddy Lucky Eyes wanted to talk smack, his buddies may come find you and practice the Art of Beating on your bones (then you go punch Lucky Eyes in that secondhand eye-ware he calls cyber). In game bullying would be sending the Red Samurai after you for painting 'Renraku Sucks!' on the side of their building. Sending them when you blow up a floor of the tower with a few pounds of C4 is a proper response.

There are rules and guild lines for security responses in the books, just as there is a rule (called Spirit Index) for how much of a fragger the local spirit world thinks you are. Not to mention every piece of Shadowrun fluff all the way back to the very first novel that has had spirits in it has shown them to be complex beings with thoughts and feelings and emotions alien to but on par with the meatsacs who summon them. Why would they react differently then any other NPC just because of a compulsion.

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BTW: There is such thing as rules with no loopholes. Thats what a balanced rulesystem provides. Of course you can never get that with linear rule systems (without limits). You need power laws or exponential curves in it AKA "diminishing returns".

Even with 'exponential curve' rules, there's still ways to break them. Every rule can be broken, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how. If you've never ran into this then Congrats! Seriously, it means neither you nor your group is a min/maxing munchkin and that is a reason to celebrate. If Karl Kaster is acting out badly, talk to them first as they may not realize what they're doing (or just got carried away) and have them tone it back a bit. If they pull a "well it says in the rules that I can so *pssst*" then you bring in a precision response and re-evaluate if Karl Kaster has a place at your table.

just bad GMing.
Going 'you got 2 dice too many so let me increase the competition' is a problem. 'You're throwing around so many high-Force Spirits that the government has taken an interest' is not.

Even the first part is sort of a last resort imo unless the team on the whole is doing it. If it’s just the mage with stupid force fireballs or the street sam with a bag of grenades talk to the player first. I prefer not to TPK over one player.

I'll admit, I didn't think that needed to be said as it should be a given. Players sometimes don't realize what their doing or just plain get carried away. It happens. And other players shouldn't be punished for one persons bad table manners.

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Though for focus abuse again I preferred early editions and they had a built in setting fix. Go ahead build your focus drop karma and money and the first astral security mage who spots you on a run destroys them all and you wasted piles of karma and money. They have got harder and harder to destroy over the editions. It used to be in my games no one took a focus until they could mask it as the setting risk was too high. Now it seems people start with multiples of them in various builds I see on this forum.

That’s my hope for this edition. Make focuses easy to permanently destroy again. Make active focuses the turning on your wireless with a crap comlink for defense for mages instead of turning on your wireless but with firewall 20.

Ghost yes! I'm glad the old 'ground a fireball through the focus' is gone, but if I can unravel a spell or spirit from a ways off, I should be able to unravel the magic in a focus, temporarily or permanently.