[Lormyr]

I disagree.

All good! Let's discuss further:

At higher levels, if the mystic adept keeps spending the karma for power points, the magician pulls ahead.

To be clear, pulls ahead at what? Both have the exact same offense potential, as they both have access to the exact same things. Strictly on the defense side, the mystic adept is completely unrivaled.

In order to keep the analysis focused, just consider Combat Sense. It is both a spell and a power.

At chargen, the mystic adept spends 15 karma to get 3 power points, all of which go into Combat Sense, giving him +6 defense and the ability to always make a surprise check. The mage uses one of the spells he learned (worth 7 karma) to pick up Combat Sense the spell.  He also spends 12 karma to bond to a sustaining focus 6 and has to spend 24k nuyen (worth 12 karma), then casts until he gets 6 hits and now gets +6 defense and +6 to surprise tests. It seems like a good deal (15 karma to 31 karma)

Yes, the mage gets projection which is slick, but even in your own example here the mage is spending more resources to get his 6 combat sense dice than the mystic adept did, and that is before the mystic adept does the same thing (or quickens, the real winning move) to have double what the mage does since adept combat sense stacks with spell combat sense.

and the sustaining focus can be used for whatever spell the mage wants to sustain, so it's more versatile

Not exactly. Sustaining foci have to be dedicated to one spell category. I consider the use of foci less than optimal since quickening exits anyhow, personally.

If the mystic adept also took the spell to cast on allies, he would be paying twice, so not a good use of resources

Sure, unless you are planning to optimize defense. Shadowrun 5th is very clear about what does not stack, and that is Initiative boosts and attribute augmentation past +4.

If the mysad went with spell resistance at max instead of astral perception, mage could match that with a counterspelling focus, which is more versatile

Again not exactly, since counterspelling foci also have to be dedicated to one category. Plus the defensive minded mystic adept will have harmonious defense, which makes the issue of resisting magic leagues apart.

The mage will have standard resistance test for the spell in question, plus ranks in counterspelling, plus shielding, possibly plus a foci.

The mystic adept will have standard resistance test for the spell in question, plus max ranks of spell resistance, plus counterspelling ranks, plus shielding, plus willpower+magic+initiate grade from harmonious defense.

A couple hundred karma later, the magician and mysad now have MAG 8. Now the karma differential spell-to-power is 20 to 39, but I think the advantage still goes to the mage.

If a person makes a mystic adept with optimized defense for the build then yes, a mage of equal karma will be a slightly more effective spellcaster. The mystic adept will be untouchable outside of a horrible dice roll, or an adept with a high force weapon focus buffed by diagnostics from a technomancer sprite.

[Lormyr]

MysAds of 6WE are not the MysAds of 5e. (Then again, they're not the MysAds of 4e, either...)

Hundreds of karma down the line MysAds will be as broken as they ever were, but not right out of chargen at least.

With one exception, the worse of that has been tempered by the changes to powers though. At least as compared to 5th.

[Hobbes]

Yeah, I don't know what Adept powers can't be simulated/approximated/outclassed by Conjured Spirits or Spells.  I've come to peace with the minimal opportunity cost of Mystic Adepts from the last two editions.  Mostly because Mages are so powerful anyway.

[Totoro]

I disagree.

All good! Let's discuss further:

At higher levels, if the mystic adept keeps spending the karma for power points, the magician pulls ahead.

To be clear, pulls ahead at what? Both have the exact same offense potential, as they both have access to the exact same things. Strictly on the defense side, the mystic adept is completely unrivaled.

In order to keep the analysis focused, just consider Combat Sense. It is both a spell and a power.

At chargen, the mystic adept spends 15 karma to get 3 power points, all of which go into Combat Sense, giving him +6 defense and the ability to always make a surprise check. The mage uses one of the spells he learned (worth 7 karma) to pick up Combat Sense the spell.  He also spends 12 karma to bond to a sustaining focus 6 and has to spend 24k nuyen (worth 12 karma), then casts until he gets 6 hits and now gets +6 defense and +6 to surprise tests. It seems like a good deal (15 karma to 31 karma)

Yes, the mage gets projection which is slick, but even in your own example here the mage is spending more resources to get his 6 combat sense dice than the mystic adept did, and that is before the mystic adept does the same thing (or quickens, the real winning move) to have double what the mage does since adept combat sense stacks with spell combat sense.

and the sustaining focus can be used for whatever spell the mage wants to sustain, so it's more versatile

Not exactly. Sustaining foci have to be dedicated to one spell category. I consider the use of foci less than optimal since quickening exits anyhow, personally.

If the mystic adept also took the spell to cast on allies, he would be paying twice, so not a good use of resources

Sure, unless you are planning to optimize defense. Shadowrun 5th is very clear about what does not stack, and that is Initiative boosts and attribute augmentation past +4.

If the mysad went with spell resistance at max instead of astral perception, mage could match that with a counterspelling focus, which is more versatile

Again not exactly, since counterspelling foci also have to be dedicated to one category. Plus the defensive minded mystic adept will have harmonious defense, which makes the issue of resisting magic leagues apart.

The mage will have standard resistance test for the spell in question, plus ranks in counterspelling, plus shielding, possibly plus a foci.

The mystic adept will have standard resistance test for the spell in question, plus max ranks of spell resistance, plus counterspelling ranks, plus shielding, plus willpower+magic+initiate grade from harmonious defense.

A couple hundred karma later, the magician and mysad now have MAG 8. Now the karma differential spell-to-power is 20 to 39, but I think the advantage still goes to the mage.

If a person makes a mystic adept with optimized defense for the build then yes, a mage of equal karma will be a slightly more effective spellcaster. The mystic adept will be untouchable outside of a horrible dice roll, or an adept with a high force weapon focus buffed by diagnostics from a technomancer sprite.

I believe you have swayed me. There is a build magicians can't really match.

[Michael Chandra]

An asides: A few of the 'you can do X' notes aren't correct in SR6. Combat Sense spell doesn't do the same as the power now. And while allowing Diagnostics to work on weapons, especially melee weapons, was always ridiculously against RAI, SR6 fixes the exploit explicitly.

[Lormyr]

I believe you have swayed me. There is a build magicians can't really match.

Nothing can, in 5th ed at least. On the extreme end with about 500 karma, you have defense dice in high 40's (50's vs. ranged), soak in the 50's or 60's with milspec, toxin resistance in the 40's, and so many magic resistance dice (more than 60) that not even immortal elves with nonsense magic attributes of 30's can land spells on you without exceptionally improbable rolls.

Everything comes at a price though, so your offense will suffer somewhat to get there.

An asides: A few of the 'you can do X' notes aren't correct in SR6. Combat Sense spell doesn't do the same as the power now.

Yeah. But all the same things stack/don't as in SR5, so we'll see what future options do to that balance.

[Shinobi Killfist]

How many of these spell changes have basically made the spells worthless though.

If a spell pretty much just adds to defense values now it’s a waste of ink with the current edge rules.

[Lormyr]

How many of these spell changes have basically made the spells worthless though.

If a spell pretty much just adds to defense values now it’s a waste of ink with the current edge rules.

Imo a number of formerly useful spells aren't any longer. But that sentiment also applies to qualities and adept powers as well.

[Finstersang]

How many of these spell changes have basically made the spells worthless though.

If a spell pretty much just adds to defense values now it’s a waste of ink with the current edge rules.

Well, the Armor Spell in the QSR adds to the defense value and to the soak pool. As it seems, it´s mostly the "everyday" bullet-proof west that´s got nerfed. Which is also pretty much a buff to all the "tanky" perks like armor/evasion spells, adept Powers and augmentations.

[Shinobi Killfist]

How many of these spell changes have basically made the spells worthless though.

If a spell pretty much just adds to defense values now it’s a waste of ink with the current edge rules.

Imo a number of formerly useful spells aren't any longer. But that sentiment also applies to qualities and adept powers as well.

I’d rather they cut content waiting for an actual good idea than put something worthless together assuming edge fixes everything. I think they said 1/2 the qualities were edge things. I don’t think you can have that many and have the system work well.

Note they have stated the armor spell in the full rules doesn’t do that. It does not add soak.

God I hope physical barrier adds armor of some kind. An imaginary wall that has no armor/structure and only provides potential edge would be a bridge too far.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

I just want to make this a bit more clear, as I was heading over to state the same thing.

Well, the Armor Spell in the QSR adds to the defense value and to the soak pool.

Note they have stated the armor spell in the full rules doesn’t do that. It does not add soak.

[Lormyr]

I think they said 1/2 the qualities were edge things. I don’t think you can have that many and have the system work well.

Half is about accurate. The qualities are at least clearly written, however. Some of the adept powers allow multiple ranks of purchase, but the wording either makes no sense for how it would work at multiple ranks, or makes multiple ranks irrelevant. Spell Resistance for example gives you a point of edge when targeted by a spell. Presumably multiple ranks = extra edge per spell, but then any amount past 2 would be useless.

Note they have stated the armor spell in the full rules doesn’t do that. It does not add soak.

Correct. In my opinion, as things currently stand, both the spells of armor and combat sense have no value.

God I hope physical barrier adds armor of some kind. An imaginary wall that has no armor/structure and only provides potential edge would be a bridge too far.

So no armor from barriers, as they work differently, but better than 5th. You basically subtract 1/2 the structure rating from incoming damage, and physical barrier makes one hell of a barrier now. That said, potentially collapsing or just making a hole in the barrier is still pretty easy. I am not sure of its value overall.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I’m fine with barrier not being super effective at stopping bullets. But the mental gymnastics of something just providing edge while trying to represent a barrier that stoped movement would be too much for me. I usually just use it as an umbrella for my mages in the rare case  I get to play.