Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Kincaid on <07-22-15/1152:59>
-
This grew out of a separate thread, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss what's worked for people who play TMs. I mentioned in the other thread that the guy playing a TM at my table is remarkably useful and people asked for some examples. Busy day at work, so I'll probably add to this slowly over time.
This is slightly off topic, so if people want to move TM coolness to another thread, we can do that too.
A few basic principles. Obviously, a great deal of this is my opinion and not empirical.
1. The technomancer at our table is a summoner. To use a MMO analogy, deckers are blasters and technomancers are (or at least, can be) summoners. They're different roles in the raid.
2. The most powerful skill in the game is Binding. The second most powerful skill in the game is Registering.
3. As you'll note with any discussion about street sams, the number of initiative passes you get/control is a critical factor in determining how effective your character is. A good sam will probably get 3 IPs reliably. A good technomancer can pretty easily get 8.
4. A sam has more flexibility with what he does with his IPs than a sprite (even if all he does is six-round bursts), so it's not entirely apples to apples, but if a player goes into a situation with a playbook (in my case, a literal playbook of things jotted down on notecards), he can exert a great degree of battlefield control.
5. If you want someone to break into a host and fetch a file, then at the lower end of the karma curve, a decker is probably going to be better, barring some sort of wild specialization. Direct connection is at least one Submersion away and a host's Firewall can be a serious impediment. Until the technomancer gets Skinlink, host access-related challenges are probably best solved through social engineering. Given how so many shadowruns are set up with the expectation that "the Matrix guy" will solve all your host problems, I can understand the frustration a player feels when his technomancer's ears begin to bleed and everyone else at the table is giving him the "You had one job!" stinkeye.
Everyone at the table needs to stop asking the technomancer to play to his weaknesses and start asking him to play to his strengths.
Shadowrun is a team game. Creatively problem solve getting into a host for 2-3 sessions and your technomancer will have Skinlink. Suppression is also truly awesome in a host. Delaying IC by 2 Combat Turns gives you 5-6 IPs to get things done.
6. We can return to hosts in a bit, but let's focus on battlefield control. As many people have noted, playing a decker in the middle of a firefight is a little frustrating. You have to spend a Complex Action to get marks or resort to Data Spiking guns; the sam can just kill the guy with a six-round burst with a Simple Action, making the decker feel remarkably inefficient. Fork is awesome and helps a little in this scenario, but it's still a game of catch up.
7. The weakness of the decker in a firefight is poor action economy. Technomancers don't have this problem. Let's say you use one machine sprite as a buffer for the sam's gun (not too exciting, but he'll appreciate it), another as a roving destroyer of enemy guns/cybereyes/wired reflex + reaction enhancer systems, and your other sprite simply Data Spikes things. Note we've just replaced the decker's Data Spike spam with 1/3 of your army and you haven't actually done anything yourself yet. (Note for your playbook: specify different classes of targets for your sprite's Data Spikes and the other sprite's Gremlins--you don't want them to target the same thing).
8. So what do you get to do during all this? Since the sprites are handling general mayhem, you could spend a few IPs to generate marks and swing the environment if that's an option--closing doors, taking control of communications, those sorts of things. When I play mages, I'm a big fan of illusion and manipulation spells, so I'm also a big fan of Resonance Veil. No OS, no marks required. Don't believe what you're seeing? Roll your extremely excellent Computer skill, Mr. Sec Guard. Did every guard's biomonitor flatline? Is my gun about to cook off ammo? Where exactly is my smartgun telling me to point my gun? And so on. If I can spend my action to do something that makes a guard not shoot my teammate, that's a win. A less interesting, but fairly efficient, choice is to follow up your sprite's Data Spikes with Resonance Spikes to finish off the target to keep your sprite moving from one target to the next.
-
How does a technomancer get 8 ips? Are you counting the sprite Ips as the technomancers? Cause if you're not, however your getting the 8ips solves my "the matrix is slow" issue a bit.
-
I'm counting the sprite's IPs. In the same way that having a spirit army can break mages, having a sprite army can break TMs (although not to the same degree--I think mages are safely atop the mountain). Each IP you control is an opportunity to affect the battlefield. Even if sprites have somewhat narrow application, the sheer volume makes up for it.
-
Awesome, please keep this up!
And by binding you of course mean Registering ;-)
-
Awesome, please keep this up!
And by binding you of course mean Registering ;-)
I need my afternoon coffee.
-
How do you prioritize your attributes? Logic for more sprites or willpower for fading. Also, the starting sprite limit is charisma... is this a typo(pg98)
-
I imagine the note on page 98 is a typo. Originally, Charisma was the stat that limited your number of sprites and that was changed to Logic in the errata. I don't think the errata caught the mention on page 98.
My base TM build is not terribly creative (I haven't really thought about CF's impact on them). Willpower of 6 and all your other mental stats at 5 (assuming human). You waste hits (12 dice vs. a limit of 5) ~17% of the time, which isn't great, but can be greatly reduced by teamworking with your sprites. Teamworking isn't a cure-all. It costs services and that's something to weigh when thinking about wasting hits versus spending Edge versus using a service. Understanding the relative importance of tests and their cost of failure is really important for any archetype in Shadowrun. Can I afford to miss a secguard? Probably. Can I afford to miss a mage? Less likely. Can I afford to roll poorly on my Edge-to-go-first Confusion spell? No. The same holds true for a technomancer. Sometimes a limit of 5 is probably going to be sufficient; sometimes it isn't. Technomancers key off their attributes and attributes are expensive--there's no sugar coating that. They've always been karma sinks. While you're earning to karma you need to build up your attributes, knowing how to play around the limits is important.
For example, let's say you've gotten yourself into a host. There's a spider and Patrol IC present. The danger of a host for a technomancer is just like a decker--spend too long, and you'll get overwhelmed. The exact SOP varies slightly based on your ability to get marks out-of-combat. If you can (and you'll Edge any failure to prevent the spider from getting a mark on you), great. If you can't, go first (either through a great roll or through Edge) and open with Diffusion of Firewall. Since everything else in this combat keys off of the spider's Firewall, this is a roll you cannot screw up. Syncing initiatives with your sprites may be tricky, so teamwork is a nice bonus here, but not something you can rely on.
You peel off some of the spider's Firewall. If you were running silent, you no longer are.
Fault Sprite envelops the spider in an Electron Storm. Whether or not the Fault Sprite should be running silently really comes down to how well you rolled at reducing the spider's Firewall. Noise in a host is a weird thing, but since Electron Storm is "weird and Resonance-y," I basically run it like Confusion and give the spider a -2 penalty.
Crack Sprite uses Suppression to prevent IC from spawning. The Crack Sprite is running silently since Suppression doesn't require a roll, so there's no -2 dice to worry about. The Crack Sprite is your summoned (not Registered) sprite.
The spider isn't going to spend Complex Actions looking for your sprites--he's going to attack you. That means he's at -2 dice and facing a fairly efficient (because of his lower Firewall) ongoing damage effect. Between 3 passes of Electron Storm and 2 passes if you doing your thing, the spider should be offline by the end of the first Combat Turn. You may be able to fit in FMD here as well.
The Patrol IC screams helplessly.
If the process of cracking and copying the file you need is taking too long, summon a new Crack Sprite in the final IP of Suppression's last CT and start the process anew. EDIT: See two posts down for the cycle.
-
Wouldn't you have to dismiss the previous crack sprite before you can summon a new one? So you would have to dismiss it the second to last pass before you could summon a new one.
What are your build priorities usually? What edge do you shoot for? How did you get into the host in the first place? I assume you had your Fault sprite go to the resonance and then after you were in called him back for 2 tasks in total so you could use him in there.
-
I realized I screwed up the order of operations in that example because of a houserule I've gotten too used to, but as long as you do the summoning on your second-to-last IP, you're fine. As long as you aren't summoning 1-service sprites, that is. You need the sprite to be present at the beginning of the CT (in the host) and having already been told to use its power (the previous CT). Presumably (the rules aren't clear on this), if you use Suppression as the final task of a sprite, the sprite disappears at the end of the power's duration, just like using a final task on sustaining. You also need to clarify with your GM exactly how the duration works--if your GM insists that it works until the end of the Combat Turn (why summon a Level 1-5 sprite then?), you're stuck using Level 6 sprites. Suppression is a strange case in the sense that if you have it last until the end of a Combat Turn, it doesn't so anything since the host checks at the beginning of a combat turn before spawning IC. At my table, if you tell a level 3 sprite to suppress in IP 3 of CT 1, he will do so until IP 3 of CT 2 (or his last IP, if he has fewer than 3).
Final CT of the original suppression power.
1st IP
Since the host began this CT under the affect of the sprite's Suppression power, no IC spawns.
Your original, Level 6 Crack Sprite expires. You have held your action to go after the sprite if necessary.
Compile a new Crack Sprite (L3) (Complex Action)
-let's say you get 3 services.
2nd IP
Command Sprite to use Suppression (Simple Action, 2 services remain)
Crack Sprite takes a -10 initiative penalty for joining combat late, but is still guaranteed at least one action and uses power.
3rd IP
Do something file-related
First Combat Turn with the newly-summoned Sprite
1st IP
[Host is still under Suppression so no IC spawns at the beginning of the Combat Turn]
Do something file-related (or skip to IP 2 if you only have 2 actions).
2nd IP
The first use of Suppression the sprite you summoned last Combat Turn used expires.
Command Sprite to use Suppression (Simple Action, 1 service remains)
3rd IP
Do file-related stuff.
At this point, you can probably finish up before the start of the next non-suppressed CT (when the IC would spawn), but if you're worried, you can cycle back up to the top.
Basically, the cycle is: if you have 3 IPs, you can compile. If you have 2 IPs, you burn tasks. If you're sprite is leaving and you have 2 IPs, you can compile but you won't be able to do anything in the host that requires a Complex Action until you reroll initiative.
-
Maybe I missed it but why do dismiss the first Crack Sprite after he performs Suppression?
-
Wouldn't you have to dismiss the previous crack sprite before you can summon a new one? So you would have to dismiss it the second to last pass before you could summon a new one.
What are your build priorities usually? What edge do you shoot for? How did you get into the host in the first place? I assume you had your Fault sprite go to the resonance and then after you were in called him back for 2 tasks in total so you could use him in there.
My player's build is pretty boring in the sense that it's very straightforward. Attributes A, Resonance B, Skills C, Race D, Resources E. There are good arguments for switching Skills and Resonance there as well. If you go Skills C (28/2), the most robust choices are probably:
Software 6
Compiling 6 (4 from Resonance B)
Registering 6 (4 from Resonance B)
Hacking 6
Cybercombat 6
Computer 6
The skill groups went to Influence and Acting, iirc.
You could drop a point or two from Computer and/or Cybercombat to pick up a few specializations (I'd go -1 Computer/ + host specialization of hacking). This is not a well-rounded starting point for the character--Skills B gives you that. It's really a matter of preference.
That puts a human at Edge 3. Not terrible, but not amazing. After Skinlink, buying up Edge is a top priority--I get comfortable around 5. I don't think this is unique to TMs--Matrix archetypes seem more Edge-dependent than most in my experience.
-
Maybe I missed it but why do dismiss the first Crack Sprite after he performs Suppression?
We play it that when you summon a new sprite/spirit and you have an active one, the old one just disappears (that was the houserule I messed up), so I've been clumsy with the proper wording. But you're right, the sprite would just disappear once his last task is used. I edited the Suppression cycle for clarity.
-
resonance library fun
- Repeat threading Cleaner level 1 for Fading Value 2 let you potentially mark, snoop and trace an unlimited amount of devices before you are forced to jack out.
- Thread Static Veil (for example level 3 for Fading Value 2) is great if you mark, snoop and trace (and cookie) a specific subject. This let you continue to run surveillance on the target for many many hours without having to worry about GOD (but with Trackback added in Data Trail you might want to be a bit careful).
- Thread a level 2 Puppeteer for Fading Value 6 and break the limit with Edge to force the Spider to Jack Out as his next action (taking dump shock and losing all marks on your persona in the process).
- Resonance Channel (for example level 3 for Fading Value 2) is great if you for example is located on the north pole of in the middle of the pacific where you normally can't connect to the matrix through normal Matrix Channels.
- Repeat thread Resonance Spike on an unknowing target. This is not considered to be an illegal attack, nor a sleaze, action. It does not trigger overwatch score. It also does not fall under "Noticing Hackers" (SR5 p. 236).
- Thread Resonance Veil against any target that use AR through DNI + a sim-module (aka Super AR) in order to build an illusion that cause Nausea (SR5 p. 409) due to the sensory input (smell of a dirty diapers, the feeling of being punched in the junk or whatever).
- Thread Transcendent Grid (for example level 5 for Fading Value 2) to ignore negative dice pool modifiers to access targets on the public grid or working across grids (great if your target is on a local grid as they normally require that you are physically present to access). You also avoid using brute force or hack on the fly to hop between grids (which are illegal matrix actions that start your overwatch score).
- If you ever run into a hostile hacker that have an overwatch score you can repeat thread Tattletale (for example level 3 for Fading Value 2 - you can thread it at level 5 for FV 2, but then you need to spend 5 combat turns to make it permanent). Spend level combat turns to make it permanent and thread a new (just like Resonance Spike this is not an attack nor a sleaze action so it does not cause overwatch and does not fall under "Noticing Hackers" on p. 236). As soon as his overwatch score hit 40 (you can increase OS by 20 every 60 seconds this way) then GOD will converge(!) on your target - If your target run the baby monitor cyberprogram you thread Resonance Veil to make him think he is far from being converged upon.
-
Do you and your sprites share "sites"?
Dude is running silent.
Can you make sprites attack him without seeing him?
Do you have to command them to take a round to spot him?
What happens if he has data anomaly?
-
Xenon, why do you have to wait ten seconds for tattletell to go?Thts only to make it permenant. His OS is still increased while you're sustaining it.
-
Xenon, why do you have to wait ten seconds for tattletell to go?Thts only to make it permenant. His OS is still increased while you're sustaining it.
Was calculating with about three action phases per combat turn, three seconds per combat turn and maybe four-five hits per test. Less than 10 seconds to increase overwatch score by 40 to hit convergence.
But yeah, you need to sustain it for level combat turns before it turn permanent. I missed that....
thanks for the catch :)
edit
mm.... it also means that you don't really benefit to cast it at a higher level....
it take 1 combat turn to increase overwatch score by 1 if you thread it by level 1 and get 1 hit.
It take 4 combat turns to increase overwatch score by 4 if you thread it by level 4 and get 4 hits.
It means you can only increase overwatch score at a rate of 1 per 3 seconds then.
Ohh well... as long as you are not noticed it is still fine i guess :)
(you don't need to make the final Tattletale permanent though - as soon as his overwatch score hit 40 GOD will converge, even if you are still just sustaining it).
-
Do you and your sprites share "sites"?
Dude is running silent.
Can you make sprites attack him without seeing him?
Do you have to command them to take a round to spot him?
What happens if he has data anomaly?
There's some GM fiat here. If someone in your group makes a standard Perception test and someone else doesn't, what happens when one person helps the other one see/find it? I'd give someone a new test with +3 dice (looking for something specific) and allow teamwork. In any event, the MP test made upon entering a host to find a specific hidden icon should probably be teamworked if there's no obvious spider present and silent icons have been detected. If the spider has Data Anomaly, then the reverse situation occurs, with the sprites assisting the TM.
Exactly when initiative starts is an important factor. I generally don't have people roll initiative as soon as they enter a host, so there are a few moments out-of-combat to get your bearings in most cases. If you're in a host, you have a mark on that host and it thinks you're a legitimate user. That might all crumble, but at least initially, you have some breathing room. You can spend that time finding the spider, finding the file you'll need post-combat, and setting yourself up for the opening salvo. Marking the spider, should you choose to do it, would be the last step.
The Tattletale/Veil trick, with or without sustaining, is really only viable out-of-combat anyway, so the difference between 10 seconds and a minute or two isn't really significant since timekeeping is pretty abstract.
-
just a note on the direct connect issue, you could take a lower cyber arm/cyber hand and then apply a device modification to it; induction receiver. solves the direct connection issue at a cost of 1 point of RES
-
just a note on the direct connect issue, you could take a lower cyber arm/cyber hand and then apply a device modification to it; induction receiver.
This will give you cybernetic hand a direct connection to the device.
I might allow that a persona you base on your internal cyberdeck that you installed in your hand get a direct connection if you mod your hand with a induction receiver cyberdeck module.
solves the direct connection issue at a cost of 1 point of RES
...but why on earth would your Living Persona suddenly get a direct connection just because you have a cyberhand modded with a induction receiver cyberdeck module??
That is the same crazy talk as connecting a wire from the device to your data jack and thinking that your Living Persona would now be directly connected.....??
Your Living Persona is not a standard internal cybernetic device.
-
the hand is part of you, you paid essence for it. its connected to your nerves, responds to your thoughts, your impulses. its connected to your motor cortex, your sensory cortex. all part of you.
your living persona is formed of you, your essence. ergo, your hand is you, so why wouldn't it give you the benefit?
and besides, if mages get to target spells through cyber eyes using vision enhancements/thermo etc at the cost of one essence, why the fuck wouldn't technos get to form direct connections for the cost of one essence?
-
If a mage can establish line of sight with cybereyes, a techno can establish a direct connection with cyberhand.
-
Xenon is correct about their interaction, but even if it was allowed (or houseruled, or whatever), I'm not at all sure I'd take a Resonance hit for what's effectively 13 karma and waiting 1-2 sessions for direct connection.
-
Xenon is correct about their interaction, but even if it was allowed (or houseruled, or whatever), I'm not at all sure I'd take a Resonance hit for what's effectively 13 karma and waiting 1-2 sessions for direct connection.
its not the only thing you can get with 1 essence though. theres a genetech mod that gives a massive boost to initiative, meaning you're not totally boned in physical combat as well, plus im sure there are other toys you can squeeze in to that point of essence that make it more worthwhile
-
I always imagined the Living Persona to be formed by your rather unique connection to the Resonance and that it only existed within the realms of the Matrix. That you can't connect wires or cyberware directly to your Living Persona. That as you explore the mysterious repositories of pure data in the Resonance Realm your connection to the Resonance grow stronger and you might get to master new powers - for example the power to directly connect your Living Persona with a device by physically touching it.
If it was intended that Technomancers could establish a direct connection between their Living Persona and a device with a physical wire to a simple cybernetic implant, don't you think they would have mentioned that somewhere by now? Why would they even add a skin link echo if all you need is a datajack and a cable or an implanted device modded with an induction receiver cyberdeck module....?
As for house rule I would rather just give all technomancers the Skin Link Echo for free, as a default power at no cost right out of chargen (this is what we did before Data Trails came out).
slipped by.. lets see... Csjarrat, Kincaid and gilga.
-
Well, again, why would the add another control rig echo intead of errating the first? Or add an echo that affects things that dont exist in fifth (encryption/decription) or not mention at all anywhere ehere the technomancer doesnt get bonuses with his technomancer things when using anything?
Nobody knows, but based on rulings, id hazard to say that a if there is a rule that could potentially be ambiguous and one way helps a techno, and another hurts him, the way that hurts him is the correct ruling.
Honestly it makes me wonder about bioware affecting the living persona.
-
Well, again, why would the add another control rig echo intead of errating the first? Or add an echo that affects things that dont exist in fifth (encryption/decription) or not mention at all anywhere ehere the technomancer doesnt get bonuses with his technomancer things when using anything?
Nobody knows, but based on rulings, id hazard to say that a if there is a rule that could potentially be ambiguous and one way helps a techno, and another hurts him, the way that hurts him is the correct ruling.
Honestly it makes me wonder about bioware affecting the living persona.
I'd like to gently nudge this thread back to a discussion of tactics and tricks available to technomancers. If we want to have a separate discussion about the nature of the Resonance and whatnot elsewhere, that's great.
-
I'd like to request we stick to tactics in this thread and not get into rules/techno/editing arguments.
It's invaluable to have this stuff in a single location and getting it all crumped up with random shiznit ain't gonnna help.
-
Well My tactics..
Resonance Veil can be used for a lot of things. Everything from making deckers feel like thier insides are being ripped apart by tiny weasles, to even having cars drive oddly. With smartguns you can make it so they can't shoot you if they've got a smart targeting system. If it happens in the matrix you can make someone think it.
Like if you've got an enemy decker.. you could make all your team's icons get replaced by fakes. Then have the fakes run somewhere else. Or possibly have a ghost decker appear. This is probally one of the better tactics.. You Veil over yourself so the target cannot see your icon, while using it to also create a fake decker icon that keeps punting data spikes at them. (While you're using resonance spikes)
Got a sin scanner coming along? Veil it to make it think you've got a valid sin. Unless it can beat your veil, it will believe it. The moment you drop the veil of course, alarms will go off, but hey!
-
Well My tactics..
Resonance Veil can be used for a lot of things. Everything from making deckers feel like thier insides are being ripped apart by tiny weasles, to even having cars drive oddly. With smartguns you can make it so they can't shoot you if they've got a smart targeting system. If it happens in the matrix you can make someone think it.
Like if you've got an enemy decker.. you could make all your team's icons get replaced by fakes. Then have the fakes run somewhere else. Or possibly have a ghost decker appear. This is probally one of the better tactics.. You Veil over yourself so the target cannot see your icon, while using it to also create a fake decker icon that keeps punting data spikes at them. (While you're using resonance spikes)
Got a sin scanner coming along? Veil it to make it think you've got a valid sin. Unless it can beat your veil, it will believe it. The moment you drop the veil of course, alarms will go off, but hey!
I don't think that Resonance Veil can be used to make your icons invisible. Just as I don't think Phantasm can be used to make a room look empty. Illusions are additive. Invisibility is subtractive. And TMs don't have an invisibility complex form...but that'd totally be sweet if they did...
-
the matrix is a tad different from meat land. Resonance veil isn't totally 100% phantasm for the matrix. Its also a bit of Control thoughts.
You could use Control thoughts to create an illusion. "I think I see a tiger" and poof, you might as well be seeing a tiger. For Resonance Veil "You think you see nothing." or "You think you see that Icon over here." or "You think you see a decker data spiking you."
-
Just a quick follow up to the earlier question about priorities. Ideally, your GM will allow you to use Sum-to-10 and you'll go Attributes (4), Resonance (4), Skills (2), Race (0), Resources (0). You end up with a few more skill points and complex forms over Priority.
-
I think Resonance A is a trap. It only gets you 80-ish karma of stuff compared to a mage that gets over 100-ish karma of stuff. I think TMs are better off bumping up metatype and using special points to max out res and get some extra edge. Then attributes A, since attributes are the most expensive to raise post chargen. It gives a player a few extra points to put into physical attributes to round themselves out.
Skills end up being D, which is lame, but luckily skills are pretty cheap to raise with karma, and E Nuyen, since it ain't easy being a 'mancer in the Sixth World.
But you can also flip skills and metatype to be a human with 6 res and 2 edg and a ton of skills. Which ain't too bad either. But considering how important edge is, I think taking the skill hit might be better, and you can be an elf or dwarf (or ork or troll if you wanted to be a gimped TM), which are way cooler than lame humans.
-
First off a pet pass is not in the same class as a PC passes. If you want to count that way you can rack up a heck of LOT of passes, between Mages and riggers it's possible to get a truly impressive number if that's what your looking for. Sadly it still doesn't make them useful in many situations, not to mention the opportunity cost involved in this.
Yes getting techno's to shift to the matrix battle field is a great idea when and where it is possible, or alternatively getting techno to adopt a drone battle field could go a long way to help address where a matrix battle field is not possible. But as it stands there are far to many issues unresolved relating to techno and device interfacing. A techno can't even start out controlling drones, let alone given their resource constraints afford to buy them. We really don't even know if a sprite can interface with a drone, as far as RAW goes the answer seems like no.
As it stands summoner techno is the only possible viable build, this is b/c of the shocking weakness of complex forms. They costed at twice spells and at best have half the game value. Until this addressed or the archtype is radically altered the problems will remain. Threading is not a useful solution to any of these issues. It may have great stat implications, but it is currently a liability to the class.
Something needs to be done to correct the techno situation.
As it stands I think Prototype transhuman did more to help starting techno's then anything we saw in DT.