Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => The Secret History => Topic started by: JimJungle on <03-28-11/2055:24>
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How was he assassinated? What made the Rift?
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That rift is what happens when Great Dragons divide by zero. :P
What happened to him, in universe, the world may never know. Out of game, he's playing bridgekeeper, asking questions three.
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He wasn't assassinated he "Sacrificed" himself to power an incredibly powerful focus. He then somehow became a free spirit named Lethe and ended up possessing a cyberzombie named Billy aka Burnout. He is as of last mention guarding a metaplaner gap that divides our world from that of the Horrors.
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Are you saying that he did it to himself? Right before he was inaugurated as pres? Seems like bad timing to me
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Right after he was inaugurated, legally, he was President of the UCAS. And the timing sucks, yes.
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Yeah he did, and yeah it was, but he thought it had to be done. The whole thing is explained in the Dragonheart Trilogy. Think that's the title anyway afb for now.
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I asked because the SR4 had very little to explain this major event.
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Yeah it kinda got swept under the rug and only really detailed in those novels. It made things interesting for a while.
Here's more info about him: http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Immortals.htm#9
And here's a copy of his will if you are interested: http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Dunk_Will.htm
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I asked because the SR4 had very little to explain this major event.
That's because, as I said, no one in the universe knows what happened. They don't even know how he was killed. And all the books, except for rules, is written from the point of view of a character. In the SR4 and SR4A's BBB instance, it's FastJack (Who laments that it should be Captain Chaos that should be doing this.).
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The Shadow knows ;) ;D
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Too bad he wasn't invited to post on the JackPoint. :P
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Lol, so true. ;D
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So what are The Horrors the Dunkelzahn is trying to keep back. Also was it ever clear about why Chostwalker hates the Azzies so much? Aside from them being Azzies.
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I asked because the SR4 had very little to explain this major event.
That's because, as I said, no one in the universe knows what happened. They don't even know how he was killed.
That's because when a Great Dragon decides that something needs to be a secret.... wow, is it kept secret!
Note: There are also some hints to this during the 'Survival of the Fittest' adventure module. As part of the metaplanar quest option, the Runners find themselves in the limo with Big D on inauguration night, while he's having second thoughts about going through with the explosion.
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The Horrors are things that make even Great Dragons go, "Frag this for a game of soldiers, I'm outta here!". They come when the Mana is at it's highest point, kill (Or make those they don't kill envy the dead) everything, and this time, they're coming early!
This has all the Immortal Elves (Who built the Tir countries and taught Elves their "Ancient Culture and Language" with a lot of Celtic theft from the corruption that happened during the Fifth World) and Great Dragons (Who slept through the time of low mana, but were hunted down and are far lesser in number. One almost woke up from Tunguska, but "The Laughing Man" apologized for that.) from the Fourth World (The last time magic was around) looking at all their plans they made and go, "Aw... DREK!!!"
Ghostwalker hates the Azzies because some of their work is decreasing the time it'll take for The Horrors to come over even further. He smells their magic upon them, and is not a happy dragon. There's also the fact that he woke up late and the rest of the Great Dragons went, "Uh, yeah, dude, sorry about your Brother, man."
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The Horrors are very very very very x infinity evil spirits that break through to our world when the mana level gets high enough, and well eat EVERYTHING. They are the big bad in the game Earthdawn and back in the day Earthdawn and Shadowrun were owned by the same company and there was a certain amount of crossover the Horrors being part of it.
Ghostwalker hates the Azzies because a man named Darke who worked for them was trying to bring the Horrors over early, causing Dunklezahn (who is Ghostwalker's brother) to sacrifice himself to stop them.
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So what are The Horrors the Dunkelzahn is trying to keep back.
Shadowrun is the 6th World (or timeframe).
During the middle of the 4th Age, when Magic is at it's peak, astral spirits called Horrors are able to bridfge the gap between their innately magical home, and the Earth. It's like killing off the dinosaurs, and they set about torturing, killing and destroying about everything.
Towards the end of the 4th Age, magic starts receding, and they are weakened, some expiring on earth because they've stayed too long, others retreating home before the bridge collapses.
During the 5th Age, there's no magic.
Now, during the 6th Age, magic is ramping up again, and in a thousand years or so, that bridge will be reformed. Big D is going to hold that off for as long as possible.... you know, big Saving the World type stuff...
Also was it ever clear about why Chostwalker hates the Azzies so much? Aside from them being Azzies.
Ghostwalker has a particular hatred of Blood Magic, mainly because it attracts suffering (and Horrors). Most great dragons feel the same way, GW is just more assertive about it.
There's a quote from the old Earthdawn game (which is set in the 4th Age), where a great dragon is lamenting that Blood Magic is the greatest mistake dragons ever made (it may have even been GW in his former name. Mountainshadow I think?
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Ghostwalker was Icewing (edit and Doll Maker, because he made the drakes), Dunklezahn was Mountainshadow (edit and Far Scholar).
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Mountainshadow is Dunkie. Not exactly very secret if you know German, apparently. (Or so I heard. I only know English and Bad English from dealing with folks from the USA.).
I think Ghostwalker is also just a really angry person, period. Some people see him as the "Second Coming" of Dunkie (Don't ask, I can only handle so much stupid and crazy for one lifetime), and, well, "Jesus is coming and he is pissed!"
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Are the Shedim a form of The Horrors? Sounds rather similiar, they hate the living and cause pain, death, and misery.
What chances that at the end of the Dawn of the Artifacts saga there'll be another force to help repel The Horrors?
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The 'down-cycle hunting', always thought it was a cool phrase, but don't know who or why?
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The Shedim are "The Horrors Lite". From a US Brand of Beer, no less. The Horrors make them look like wimps.
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That's debatable, they are precursors of the horrors, but I don't think they are. Invae or Insect spirits are also a warning the Horrors are coming.
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The 'down-cycle hunting', always thought it was a cool phrase, but don't know who or why?
Some Immortal Elves and maybe a human secret society did the down cycle hunting. Sirrug's attacks on that airliner and train was him getting revenge on some of them.
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Mountainshadow is Dunkie. Not exactly very secret if you know German, apparently. (Or so I heard. I only know English and Bad English from dealing with folks from the USA.).
Dunkel means Dark and Zahn means Tooth.
I took 4 years of German and that's all I get for it.
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Mountainshadow is Dunkie. Not exactly very secret if you know German, apparently. (Or so I heard. I only know English and Bad English from dealing with folks from the USA.).
Dunkel means Dark and Zahn means Tooth.
I took 4 years of German and that's all I get for it.
Better than my French.
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That's debatable, they are precursors of the horrors, but I don't think they are. Invae or Insect spirits are also a warning the Horrors are coming.
So these other magical threats (Shedim and da Bugs) are like the signs of things to come. Anything else from the Earthdawn material that can be speculated on?
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Yeah. Metahumanity is doomed. :P
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Anything else from the Earthdawn material that can be speculated on?
Ever since Earthdawn was released people have been compiling connections and speculation. Robert Derie has the most well-known and recent one, though I still prefer Max Rible's for any number of reasons I don't particularly feel like discussing.
The Horrors is an idiotic Cthulhu nonsense that has no place in SR. Cthulhu is fine in certain circumstances. As far as I'm concerned, this isn't one.
And this is coming from someone who has a Grade 6 physad and cyberzombie fight to the death and has no problem with a cockroach technomancer swarm. They may be far off on the horizon, but I do have my limits.
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That's debatable, they are precursors of the horrors, but I don't think they are. Invae or Insect spirits are also a warning the Horrors are coming.
So these other magical threats (Shedim and da Bugs) are like the signs of things to come. Anything else from the Earthdawn material that can be speculated on?
A) The Horrors are a LONG way off. Thousand/s of years before the ambient Mana levels are high enough for them to make the jump. Possibly longer before the big horrors (Verjigorn and co) can come across.
This is a good thing. Verjigorn was the Hunter of Great Dragons.... that's a title that gives me nightmares....
B) There are more than enough dark and twisted paths to worry about before Horrors get involved. I, along with other Earthdawn purists, am in zero hurry for Horrors to receive any focus in the SR universe.
C) Shedim and da-Bugs are just more magical entities with their own agenda and modus operandi. No worse than corps as far as I'm concerned in terms of runner-threats.
D) More and more astral entities, cyber/magic combinations and weirdness will ensue long before Horrors need to be included. Technomancers/Technocritters are a nice new flavour of Otaku, as well as SURGE-related effects.
I will be quite content as a PC and GM to never include Horrors in my games. However, when dealing with Immortal Elves or Great Dragons, as a GM I need to know that the future doom of horrors arriving is something that these ultra-long-lived NPC's are planning around, even now. These current NPC's (and surrounding organisations and corporations) are right now stockpiling everything they can so that one day, even a thousand years from now when the schedule of Horror-arrival is public knowledge, these groups will be able to survive.
Note: They're not planning to win. Just survive....
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Evo, having Buttercup (A free spirit) on the board, is one of the Megas that actually are planning something. Most likely.
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Evo, having Buttercup (A free spirit) on the board, is one of the Megas that actually are planning something. Most likely.
CanRay, do you LIVE on these boards? :P
We joined the forum around the same time, and I can't refresh a page without seeing your name in the 5 most recent postings :o
I knew I liked you 8) +1
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I'm an E-Ghost. :P
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Captain?
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Okay, here's the full low-down on Dunkelzahn, the Horrors, and pretty much the entire backbone of the first 10 years or so of Shadowrun's metaplot. Please note this will spoil a lot of adventures, sourcebooks, and novels that I highly recommend you read because they're really good. I'm not even going to block out the spoilers because that's all this entire post is.
In the 4th World (aka Earthdawn), the world was ravaged by beings called Horrors (they are never once called this in Shadowrun canon, only "The Enemy" by Harlequin and that's the closest anyone comes to naming them). The Horrors are basically Lovecraft's nightmares/wet dreams in some interpretations, but I personally think that the Skinwalker from the Dresden Files novel Small Favor by Jim Butcher sums them up best. They're hard to kill and they feed on human/metahuman fear and pain. And they are epicureans too. Sure, there's the instant screaming terror sort of fear from blowing up someone's house with their family inside, but that's like fast food. Tasty, but no depth of flavor and it's not that filling for very long. But that slow physical and emotional torture? That's the stuff right there... And there are billions of them. Billions upon billions, just waiting for mana levels to get high enough to come to the world and feast. The trick is (and this is important) that the mana levels have to be very high to get here, but they don't have to be very high to stay here.
Fast forward to 2018 or so when the Great Ghost Dance happens. Who gave them the info on how to do it? No one knows. But performing the ritual caused a "spike" in the mana levels. Imagine the gap that the horrors have to go through, and it's the Grand Canyon (not my images, it's how it's depicted multiple times). The Great Ghost Dance made a sort of stone bridge jutting out from our side to the side with the Horrors. It means they can come early, which is a bad thing (Understatement of the Year award candidate!). Blood magic also makes this bridge even longer, allowing the Horrors to come sooner. Key sign that things are bad, the Insect Spirits were about a century or three early for the mana cycle.
Fast forward to 2055 or so. Harlequin goes on a metaplanar quest (well, he doesn't really do crap except watch the backs of the poor runners who do all the hard work) against hordes of Horrors who were able to bridge the gap and sneak over. After the quest is over, the Horrors are stalled but not stopped (unless you ask Harlequin who thinks he single-handedly saved the world). Souce: Harlequin's Back adventure and the novels House of the Sun and Worlds Without Ends.
But there's a problem. Aztlan/Aztechnology is actually working to make the bridge longer through ritual sacrifices. Dunkelzahn tries to warn everyone who has the power and knowledge to do something (as depicted in the Aztlan sourcebook), but apparently they don't do a damn thing because Dunkelzahn decides the best course of action is to blow himself up. He does and uses his will and some documents left behind to send a run to Aztlan who is attempting to create a Locus (think Off-brand AAA battery : Power Focus :: Fusion nuclear reactor capable of powering the entire East Coast : Locus) by sacrificing several thousand people in a Blood Magic ritual.
Sidebar: See, Horrors can do nasty things to people to torture them. One of them is corrupting the individual to the point they're kinda a mini-Horror themselves. Rumor is that Aztechnology/Aztlan is run by a Horror-touched Great Dragon, which is a Bad Thing (yet another Understatement of the Year candidate).
One of the side effects of what Dunkelzahn does is create a Great Form Free Spirit that's as powerful as a Great Dragon. This spirit decides to possess the body of a cyberzombie...and gets trapped by the rituals to create a cyberzombie. Long story short ("Too late!"), the cyberzombie/spirit combo manages to drain the magic out of the bridge, shortening it so that the manacycle's back on target as normal. The spirit then becomes self-aware and realizes that it is in fact the soul of Dunkelzahn...but does this after everyone else has left. Oh, and Ryan Mercury finds out he's a drake. Seriously, it makes sense in context, that's why I said to read the novels (Stranger Souls, Clockwork Asylum, and Beyond the Pale).
Anyway, Crash 2.0 happens and Fanpro's management decides they want to kill that whole thread even deader, so they dropped a plane on Cyberzombie Dunkelzahn's Ghost. So don't expect it to ever come up again, especially since Horrors are an Earthdawn thing and that brand is now managed by a different competing company.
Also, Shedim have nothing to do with Horrors. That's a completely different can of worms that took the Old Guard (beings that had been around since the 4th World) by surprise.
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Evo, having Buttercup (A free spirit) on the board, is one of the Megas that actually are planning something. Most likely.
It's certainly a radical move that demonstrates Evo are willing to take some risks.
Although, Dunkelzahn's Draco foundation (and Astral Preservation Society blah) will have a lot more weird and wacky inputs from weird and wacky sapients as well.
In my game, the PC's came across some Wasp Insect spirits and were incredibly surprised that they weren't attacked outright (as Wasps prefer to hunt other Insect Spirits) was a very interesting session and conversation between the two parties. The runners politely declined to be Flesh-form hosts themselves, but directed the Spirits to a local ganger gym. In return, the Spirits advised about some Astral locations that runner-mages might like to frequent.
It's not What you know... :)... it's Who...hang on...do spirits count as a Who, or a What? Hmmm, I think I've messed this up now... *sigh*
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Okay, here's the full low-down on Dunkelzahn, the Horrors, and pretty much the entire backbone of the first 10 years or so of Shadowrun's metaplot. Please note this will spoil a lot of adventures, sourcebooks, and novels that I highly recommend you read because they're really good. I'm not even going to block out the spoilers because that's all this entire post is.
That was an elegantly crafted summary of a LOT of material. +1 to you :)
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Evo, having Buttercup (A free spirit) on the board, is one of the Megas that actually are planning something. Most likely.
It's not What you know... :)... it's Who...hang on...do spirits count as a Who, or a What? Hmmm, I think I've messed this up now... *sigh*
I go by the Spider Robinson scale of Personage: "If someone is able to say 'Excuse me' if they bump into me in a bar, they're people, no matter what shape."
Although, I'm more of the "Buy me a beer" variety. :P
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Evo, having Buttercup (A free spirit) on the board, is one of the Megas that actually are planning something. Most likely.
It's certainly a radical move that demonstrates Evo are willing to take some risks.
Although, Dunkelzahn's Draco foundation (and Astral Preservation Society blah) will have a lot more weird and wacky inputs from weird and wacky sapients as well.
In my game, the PC's came across some Wasp Insect spirits and were incredibly surprised that they weren't attacked outright (as Wasps prefer to hunt other Insect Spirits) was a very interesting session and conversation between the two parties. The runners politely declined to be Flesh-form hosts themselves, but directed the Spirits to a local ganger gym. In return, the Spirits advised about some Astral locations that runner-mages might like to frequent.
It's not What you know... :)... it's Who...hang on...do spirits count as a Who, or a What? Hmmm, I think I've messed this up now... *sigh*
Buttercup may or may not know about the Horrors. My money's on "no" considering how deep Yamatetsu was in with the Invae before that was blown wide open. Either that or they managed to keep their "secret magical research" quiet from the free spirit on the Board of Directors, which is far more unlikely. The only major operations I can think of that know about the Horrors are the Draco Foundation/DIMR, Tir Tairngire and Tir nA nOg, Aztlan (obviously), every Great Dragon and most of the non-Greats, and maybe a couple of others.
And thanks for the compliment...I glossed over a lot of it though, there are a lot more details and threads all over the place I didn't get into due to not wanting to write a book myself on the forums. Bottled Demon, all the bequests/"contests" in Dunkelzahn's will, Dragons of the Sixth World, etc. Plus, Ancient History's site has most of it anyway if someone's that interested and I covered some more a few posts below talking about Crater Lake.
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It really is sad about the problems between CGL and AH. :'(
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Buttercup may or may not know about the Horrors. My money's on "no" considering how deep Yamatetsu was in with the Invae before that was blown wide open. Either that or they managed to keep their "secret magical research" quiet from the free spirit on the Board of Directors, which is far more unlikely. The only major operations I can think of that know about the Horrors are the Draco Foundation/DIMR, Tir Tairngire and Tir nA nOg, Aztlan (obviously), every Great Dragon and most of the non-Greats, and maybe a couple of others.
I also vote No in that regard. Buttercup hasn't done anything to imply she's a particularly old or impressive spirit. Some of the Great Dragon butler-spirits could be old enough, though.
Query on the Great Dragons, though. Are they still teaching the non-Greats akin to the old Earthdawn material in that regard? Used to be that 'normal' dragons would handover their eggs to the Loremaster (used to be Vasdjenas, then Dunkelzahn, now Lofwyr), to be hatched and raised by Great dragons.
Some of the adventure modules and dragon-discussions in SR though, imply that 'normal' dragons are looking after their eggs themselves, and there's no listed link between Greats and non-Greats anymore. Could well be that some of these dragons aren't learning their ancient history from the source/Jewel of Memory anymore....
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It really is sad about the problems between CGL and AH. :'(
I must be all acronym'ed out. I have zero idea what you're referring to ???
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CGL = Catalyst Game Labs.
AH = Ancient History.
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CGL = Catalyst Game Labs.
AH = Ancient History.
Yes, is a shame there won't be a lot of linked stuff anymore.
Was always amusing running Earthdawn and SR campaigns concurrently, having ED PC's trying to plant clues for SR PC's to find.
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"So we found this ancient painting in what was obviously some kind of vault... It looks like... Us. Um, guys, what the hell? They even got Jimmy's eyes right." "They're not even painted." "Exactly! Stone cold!"
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"So we found this ancient painting in what was obviously some kind of vault... It looks like... Us. Um, guys, what the hell? They even got Jimmy's eyes right." "They're not even painted." "Exactly! Stone cold!"
'It had gems for eyes, dude. Gems! Solid diamonds in the cufflinks, was just all cool!'
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Query on the Great Dragons, though. Are they still teaching the non-Greats akin to the old Earthdawn material in that regard? Used to be that 'normal' dragons would handover their eggs to the Loremaster (used to be Vasdjenas, then Dunkelzahn, now Lofwyr), to be hatched and raised by Great dragons.
Some of the adventure modules and dragon-discussions in SR though, imply that 'normal' dragons are looking after their eggs themselves, and there's no listed link between Greats and non-Greats anymore. Could well be that some of these dragons aren't learning their ancient history from the source/Jewel of Memory anymore....
Dragons of the Sixth World. That's how it's done still. Hestaby is supposedly raising the clutch of Rhonabwy and the Sea Dragon (and she's trying to get them back), there's supposedly a bunch of clutches in Madagascar but Harlequin commented it was a decoy, and there's a couple of others mentioned here and there. Lofwyr has a clutch somewhere in Tir Tairngire that may or may not have hatched (from the novel Never Trust an Elf) which...
SPOILER ALERT
...Glasgian Oakforest thought would be fun to track down and go all smashy-smashy on. Needless to say, Lofwyr was pretty damn pissed about that, leading to the deal set up between Lugh Surehand, Aithne Oakforest, Lofwyr, and Hestaby that involved Lofwyr handing over his Princehood at Tir Tairngire to Hestaby, Aithne Oakforest buggering off to Europe, and chewed bones raining down along Oregon and Northern California.
Some may raise their own clutches, but odds are it was with Dunkelzahn's permission due to his more liberal attitude concerning the old ways.
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Gee fella ain't you full of helpful information. ;)
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Gee fella ain't you full of helpful information. ;)
Who, me? I own almost every book including the novels and I've been playing Shadowrun for almost two decades at this point. I've picked up a lot of trivia. I'm running into problems in the game I'm about to join as a player because I know more about the metaplot than my GM. Wasted three of my knowledge skills to explain how my character might know all the crap I do (Sixth World History, Shadowrunner Hangouts (since I couldn't find one that said "I can identify Shadowtalkers from 1st-3rd Ed by their posts without looking at the SIG"), and Conspiracy Theories).
And seriously, this is me holding back. I deleted half of that Horrors history lesson since I kept going off on tangents.
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But tangents are fun and distract... OH SHINY!!!
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Gee fella ain't you full of helpful information. ;)
Who, me? I own almost every book including the novels and I've been playing Shadowrun for almost two decades at this point. I've picked up a lot of trivia. I'm running into problems in the game I'm about to join as a player because I know more about the metaplot than my GM. Wasted three of my knowledge skills to explain how my character might know all the crap I do (Sixth World History, Shadowrunner Hangouts (since I couldn't find one that said "I can identify Shadowtalkers from 1st-3rd Ed by their posts without looking at the SIG"), and Conspiracy Theories).
And seriously, this is me holding back. I deleted half of that Horrors history lesson since I kept going off on tangents.
I like you, you'll fit in nicely here. ;)
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Okay, here's the full low-down on Dunkelzahn, the Horrors, and pretty much the entire backbone of the first 10 years or so of Shadowrun's metaplot. Please note this will spoil a lot of adventures, sourcebooks, and novels that I highly recommend you read because they're really good. I'm not even going to block out the spoilers because that's all this entire post is.
That was an elegantly crafted summary of a LOT of material. +1 to you :)
2nded, I have zero Earthdawn knowledge, and as much as it saddens me, serious gaps in some of my SR lore... Threads like these make me so very happy. :)
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I second that. I have NO Earthdawn 'lore' and I just recently (past year or so) started reading over alot of my Shadowrun material in earnest. So a thorough explanation of the underpinnings of the plotline is highly appreciated.
Thanks Abstruse.
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Mountainshadow is Dunkie. Not exactly very secret if you know German, apparently. (Or so I heard. I only know English and Bad English from dealing with folks from the USA.).
Dunkel means Dark and Zahn means Tooth.
I took 4 years of German and that's all I get for it.
According to Earthdawn sourcebook Dragons, one of Mountainshadow best agent went by the name Dark Tooth. Deneirastas believe he could be an old and experienced drake. Moutainshadow comments Dark Tooth is "far cleverer and more capable" than Deneirastas imagine. Several people (myself counted) took this remark as irony and believe Dark Tooth was Mountainshow in human form.
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If you want to get a bunch of info about Shadowrun and Earthdawn's shared histories, you can either read a crapload of books over several years then re-read them after you read another so you can make connections you didn't see before...
...or you can just go to Ancient History's site at http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/ (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/) and spend an afternoon learning stuff that honestly I didn't even know and couldn't have figured out on my own. Especially since a lot of the stuff is really tiny shout-outs in Shadowtalk/JackPointers talking that just happen to give you a "three years later" update on what's going on.
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Ok, so now that the why Dunkelzahn died is out of the way. Why go through all the trouble to become President in the first place? Was that a last minute decision or had he put things in motion by selecting who'd succeed him?
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Ok, so now that the why Dunkelzahn died is out of the way. Why go through all the trouble to become President in the first place? Was that a last minute decision or had he put things in motion by selecting who'd succeed him?
I never for a second believe that Great Dragons are caught unprepared (except, perhaps, by other Great Dragons :) )
I have full belief that Dunkelzahn planned the exact date and time he'd be president, twenty years in advance :o Also, being a presidential candidate ensured that there were tens of millions of witnesses to his death, followed by unprecedented interest in his will and estate (again, prepared in advance and updated regularly).
Things like that don't happen by chance.
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No, but parts of his will were obviously not prepared properly, such as the donation of his body to science.
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No, but parts of his will were obviously not prepared properly, such as the donation of his body to science.
Considering the other parts of his will were so well prepared (and obviously recently updated), this to me smacks of Red Herring to imply he wasn't involved in his own demise.
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Ok, so now that the why Dunkelzahn died is out of the way. Why go through all the trouble to become President in the first place? Was that a last minute decision or had he put things in motion by selecting who'd succeed him?
This is just a guess since there's no canon explanation given (and likely not one to come), but here are a few reasons he may have run for president while planning suicide:
1. He hoped he wouldn't need to off himself because the warnings he'd given the others in the know back in the Aztlan sourcebook.
2. He really wanted to be president to help guide the country similar to the sort of bequests he made in his will to prepare the world for the Horrors (check out Ancient History's Annotated Will on the link above).
3. He wanted to make sure that no one else won the presidential election except his hand-chosen man, Haeffner.
4. He wanted to make sure that he was elected president before he died, giving his will as much legal clout as possible since any challenges to his citizenship (and thus his will) would've been made before he ran.
5. He knew a rift would develop when he offed himself and that rift would eventually allow his brother Ghostwalker to return, and the only way to ensure he would be in the right place at the right time would be on inauguration night.
That's just off the top of my head, it's probably all of these and twenty more reasons we'd never be able to figure out.
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I never for a second believe that Great Dragons are caught unprepared (except, perhaps, by other Great Dragons :) )
How cute.
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I never for a second believe that Great Dragons are caught unprepared (except, perhaps, by other Great Dragons :) )
How cute.
I'm just jealous :P
In terms of Artificial Intelligence design, modern science (Note: I'm not in a position to comment on Military R&D in this regard :P) cannot possibly yet replicate the combination of:
1) Constant analysis of incoming information,
2) Lump sum of knowledge based on x thousand years of active life experience (which conveniently ignores the dragon hibernation cycle, although it's possible their minds were still active on the plances for this time, learning more information)
3) Predictive analysis of non-quantifiable variables (Human nature, Magical events)
4) Heretofore unprecedented level of organic intelligence to marry all these things together and spit out turns of events like a game of chess
Also a Human Logic/Intuition attribute rating of 1 is impaired, 9 is ultra-genius.
Great dragons take these to ratings of 13-15 as standard, with RAW mods of +1-3 improving these to ratings of 14-18..... enough to make Albert Einstein and Leonardo da Vinci look like brain dead vegetables in comparison.
Ergo, I find it easy to believe that Great Dragons are simply too off-the-scale intelligent for us mere metahumans to comprehend.
Further, I then find it more plausible to believe that such a creature is rarely, if ever, caught unprepared (especially if they've focused so much thought to a particular course of action, up to and including suicide).
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It has been hinted at before that certain titles and positions convey certain power. The title of "President of the United States", one that does not dissipate posthumously or even when out of office, might be one of those powers needed to turn Dunkie into that Great form spirit.
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In terms of Artificial Intelligence design, modern science (Note: I'm not in a position to comment on Military R&D in this regard :P) cannot possibly yet replicate the combination of:
1) Constant analysis of incoming information,
2) Lump sum of knowledge based on x thousand years of active life experience (which conveniently ignores the dragon hibernation cycle, although it's possible their minds were still active on the plances for this time, learning more information)
3) Predictive analysis of non-quantifiable variables (Human nature, Magical events)
4) Heretofore unprecedented level of organic intelligence to marry all these things together and spit out turns of events like a game of chess
Also a Human Logic/Intuition attribute rating of 1 is impaired, 9 is ultra-genius.
Great dragons take these to ratings of 13-15 as standard, with RAW mods of +1-3 improving these to ratings of 14-18..... enough to make Albert Einstein and Leonardo da Vinci look like brain dead vegetables in comparison.
Ergo, I find it easy to believe that Great Dragons are simply too off-the-scale intelligent for us mere metahumans to comprehend.
Further, I then find it more plausible to believe that such a creature is rarely, if ever, caught unprepared (especially if they've focused so much thought to a particular course of action, up to and including suicide).
It's been stated (I believe in Dragons of the Sixth World) that Lofwyr spends most of his time in his office watching a bank of trideo sets all tuned to different channels, monitoring all of them simultaneously while holding complex conversations in person and on the phone. Most humans have to have a chip implanted in their brains to be able to handle that (Encephalon).
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And people wonder why you never cut a deal with a dragon.
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It's been stated (I believe in Dragons of the Sixth World) that Lofwyr spends most of his time in his office watching a bank of trideo sets all tuned to different channels, monitoring all of them simultaneously while holding complex conversations in person and on the phone. Most humans have to have a chip implanted in their brains to be able to handle that (Encephalon).
*cough*
Multitasking adept power
*cough*
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It's been stated (I believe in Dragons of the Sixth World) that Lofwyr spends most of his time in his office watching a bank of trideo sets all tuned to different channels, monitoring all of them simultaneously while holding complex conversations in person and on the phone. Most humans have to have a chip implanted in their brains to be able to handle that (Encephalon).
*cough*
Multitasking adept power
*cough*
1) I said "most". Unless you want to plead spike babies, there are people who can do that now.
2) And where exactly did that adept power come from? Could it be an attempt to duplicate the effects of an Encephlon for those who would rather spend the power points and karma than the essence and nuyen?
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2) And where exactly did that adept power come from? Could it be an attempt to duplicate the effects of an Encephlon for those who would rather spend the power points and karma than the essence and nuyen?
As I recall Encephlon and Multitasking do very different things mechanically. I think what Multitasking does is more in line with an Attention Coprocessor in terms of concept. In terms of mechanics the only thing I can think that compares is the Echo.
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2) And where exactly did that adept power come from? Could it be an attempt to duplicate the effects of an Encephlon for those who would rather spend the power points and karma than the essence and nuyen?
As I recall Encephlon and Multitasking do very different things mechanically. I think what Multitasking does is more in line with an Attention Coprocessor in terms of concept. In terms of mechanics the only thing I can think that compares is the Echo.
Maybe I'm thinking previous editions of Encephlon...either way, this thread is completely derailing.
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*Looks at the bodies and cargo spilled onto the countryside from the derailment* OH THE HUMANITY!!!
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It has been hinted at before that certain titles and positions convey certain power. The title of "President of the United States", one that does not dissipate posthumously or even when out of office, might be one of those powers needed to turn Dunkie into that Great form spirit.
Indeed, that's a good thought!
This is a holdover from the Earthdawn mechanics, where Names (note the capital 'N') could hold immense power.
There's definitely nothing stopping that particular piece of magic starting to 'Awaken' into the 6th age....
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It has been hinted at before that certain titles and positions convey certain power. The title of "President of the United States", one that does not dissipate posthumously or even when out of office, might be one of those powers needed to turn Dunkie into that Great form spirit.
Indeed, that's a good thought!
This is a holdover from the Earthdawn mechanics, where Names (note the capital 'N') could hold immense power.
There's definitely nothing stopping that particular piece of magic starting to 'Awaken' into the 6th age....
That's actually in the Aztlan soucebook. It does still work in the Sixth World as some of the Aztlan/Aztechnology priests had specific titles that carried power with them. It also may be why the Caribbean League having so many problems keeping a Head Hougan alive to collect the 30+ million nuyen worth of Great Dragon talon clippings, and it also may be why Big D required one be named to claim it.
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Indeed, that's a good thought!
This is a holdover from the Earthdawn mechanics, where Names (note the capital 'N') could hold immense power.
There's definitely nothing stopping that particular piece of magic starting to 'Awaken' into the 6th age....
That's actually in the Aztlan soucebook. It does still work in the Sixth World as some of the Aztlan/Aztechnology priests had specific titles that carried power with them. It also may be why the Caribbean League having so many problems keeping a Head Hougan alive to collect the 30+ million nuyen worth of Great Dragon talon clippings, and it also may be why Big D required one be named to claim it.
Interesting. I may have to go forth and claim this Atzlan book..... now where was that Credit card?
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Gee fella ain't you full of helpful information. ;)
Who, me? I own almost every book including the novels and I've been playing Shadowrun for almost two decades at this point. I've picked up a lot of trivia. I'm running into problems in the game I'm about to join as a player because I know more about the metaplot than my GM. Wasted three of my knowledge skills to explain how my character might know all the crap I do (Sixth World History, Shadowrunner Hangouts (since I couldn't find one that said "I can identify Shadowtalkers from 1st-3rd Ed by their posts without looking at the SIG"), and Conspiracy Theories).
And seriously, this is me holding back. I deleted half of that Horrors history lesson since I kept going off on tangents.
This doesn't seem like that much of a problem. I'd either cut the Meta-plot related skills or suggest that the GM learn a bit about the Big Picture. If the GM is looking to keep the game small scale, then having knowledge skills that rely on the Meta-plot being implemented to the game are useless. Perhaps asking the GM if those knowledge skills will be of use is something you could do and if not cut them and put the points into something more to the game they're running.
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Also a Human Logic/Intuition attribute rating of 1 is impaired, 9 is ultra-genius.
Great dragons take these to ratings of 13-15 as standard, with RAW mods of +1-3 improving these to ratings of 14-18..... enough to make Albert Einstein and Leonardo da Vinci look like brain dead vegetables in comparison.
Ergo, I find it easy to believe that Great Dragons are simply too off-the-scale intelligent for us mere metahumans to comprehend.
Hehe, yeah...but no Great Dragon ever invented the wheel. Or calculus. Or peeps. Let alone Relativity (Special or General), Quantum Mechanics, and silly string. Hellz, even "After much research and hundreds of bags of burned Nuke-and-Pop" The Big D couldn't discover how open-flame popped popcorn packages could be made!
And before the "yeah, but their great, friggin, dragons...they don't need wheels or calculus or peeps" argument is made...well humans didn't need it either. The Maya never invented the wheel. As long as there was food and shelter Newton never needed to be curious about light, gravity, and mathematics...but he was...and it was that curiosity that led his logic/intuition to formulate some durn gud models for how those things work. So then either great dragons aren't curious (but the Big D is clear evidence that at least one is) or...their great logic/intuition is all a lie! A lie, I tell you! They're nothing but lizard-brained scaly-ego'd charlatans!
And in closing (to this tongue-in-cheek, semi-IC, rant); um...never deal with a dragon?
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Hehe, yeah...but no Great Dragon ever invented the wheel. Or calculus. Or peeps. Let alone Relativity (Special or General), Quantum Mechanics, and silly string.
Wheel? Who says it wasn't a dragon? :P
Peeps, maybe not. But Drakes? Yes. Immortal Elves? Yes
Hellz, even "After much research and hundreds of bags of burned Nuke-and-Pop" The Big D couldn't discover how open-flame popped popcorn packages could be made!
I always thought this was a reference that he couldn't work out how to Dragon-breath roast it?
Seeing as that's the equivalent of opening a can of tuna with a nuke, I can imagine that's a pretty tricky prospect....
...and it was that curiosity that led his logic/intuition to formulate some durn gud models for how those things work. So then either great dragons aren't curious (but the Big D is clear evidence that at least one is) or...their great logic/intuition is all a lie! A lie, I tell you! They're nothing but lizard-brained scaly-ego'd charlatans!
Who says they're not curious?
And Intuition off the scale seems pretty right for a creature that can predict the rise of an island some years in advance....
Personally, I'm a dragon Fanatic (yes, the capital F is deliberate), but I've had several deliberate characters who HATED dragons. Mental note: Under no circumstances is it advisable to call a great dragon 'an overgrown gecko'..... no matter what your initiate grade, you're now officially lunch. RIP brother...
And in closing (to this tongue-in-cheek, semi-IC, rant); um...never deal with a dragon?
Seconded. All in favour say 'Aye?'
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Isn't one of the Greats now working for a Mega in charge of R&D for computer technology?
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Celedyr, yes.
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I was gonna post, but Abstruse beat me to the punch. +1 for you, sir.
A little bit of a sidebar: Ghostwalker/Icewing/Doll-maker is the ass-kicker of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun world. And he didn't spend the down-cycle hibernating like the others, he was on a meta-planar jaunt for who-knows-what reason. His accumulated wisdom and fighting skills meant that absolutely no other dragon, not even another GREAT dragon, wants to confront him directly. (He tried to provoke Lofwyr into a fight right after he came back and found out his brother had died. Needless to say, Lofwyr changed the rules of the contest into a game of cat's-paws so as not to be turned into garden mulch.)
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I was gonna post, but Abstruse beat me to the punch. +1 for you, sir.
A little bit of a sidebar: Ghostwalker/Icewing/Doll-maker is the ass-kicker of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun world. And he didn't spend the down-cycle hibernating like the others, he was on a meta-planar jaunt for who-knows-what reason. His accumulated wisdom and fighting skills meant that absolutely no other dragon, not even another GREAT dragon, wants to confront him directly. (He tried to provoke Lofwyr into a fight right after he came back and found out his brother had died. Needless to say, Lofwyr changed the rules of the contest into a game of cat's-paws so as not to be turned into garden mulch.)
I was always curious how the Rite of Succession would've played out if Ghostwalker had been around for it. The dragon pretty much just marched into the single biggest political hotbed in the entire developed world, said "All this is mine now and you work for me." He then kicked the everloving crap out of Aztechnology and Aztlan, pretty much the big bad of the Shadowrun world up to that point and threw them out. And everyone else looked at that and said "Cool, you're in charge."
Again, that's the UCAS, CAS, Sioux, PCC, and Ute who just rolled over and said "That's cool, you can take over. We're good."
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I was gonna post, but Abstruse beat me to the punch. +1 for you, sir.
A little bit of a sidebar: Ghostwalker/Icewing/Doll-maker is the ass-kicker of the Earthdawn/Shadowrun world. And he didn't spend the down-cycle hibernating like the others, he was on a meta-planar jaunt for who-knows-what reason. His accumulated wisdom and fighting skills meant that absolutely no other dragon, not even another GREAT dragon, wants to confront him directly. (He tried to provoke Lofwyr into a fight right after he came back and found out his brother had died. Needless to say, Lofwyr changed the rules of the contest into a game of cat's-paws so as not to be turned into garden mulch.)
I was always curious how the Rite of Succession would've played out if Ghostwalker had been around for it. The dragon pretty much just marched into the single biggest political hotbed in the entire developed world, said "All this is mine now and you work for me." He then kicked the everloving crap out of Aztechnology and Aztlan, pretty much the big bad of the Shadowrun world up to that point and threw them out. And everyone else looked at that and said "Cool, you're in charge."
Again, that's the UCAS, CAS, Sioux, PCC, and Ute who just rolled over and said "That's cool, you can take over. We're good."
Ghostwalker was around for the Rite of Succession, hence why Lofwyr changed the rules to using pawns.
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Ghostwalker was around for the Rite of Succession, hence why Lofwyr changed the rules to using pawns.
Wow, you're right. Been too long since I looked over Survival of the Fittest. Re-reading it now, Lofwyr didn't exactly change the rules so much as use parliamentary procedure to force them into a full Rite rather than just fighting it out then and there. My guess is because Lofwyr, thanks to SK, thought he would have a lot more influence in the game.
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Ghostwalker was around for the Rite of Succession, hence why Lofwyr changed the rules to using pawns.
Wow, you're right. Been too long since I looked over Survival of the Fittest. Re-reading it now, Lofwyr didn't exactly change the rules so much as use parliamentary procedure to force them into a full Rite rather than just fighting it out then and there. My guess is because Lofwyr, thanks to SK, thought he would have a lot more influence in the game.
Or, more likely, got his tail handed to him on a platinum platter, and opted for the option that would have made that a less likely event. I think the Golden One is rather attached to his tail, and the rest of his scales.
Ghostwalker is the 200-lbs. gorilla of the Great Dragon world, from my read. Only Dunkie, his Brother, had a shot at standing up to him is the feel I get. Why he doesn't throw his weight around more is a good question. Probably still getting a feel for the world at large.
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Ghostwalker was around for the Rite of Succession, hence why Lofwyr changed the rules to using pawns.
Wow, you're right. Been too long since I looked over Survival of the Fittest. Re-reading it now, Lofwyr didn't exactly change the rules so much as use parliamentary procedure to force them into a full Rite rather than just fighting it out then and there. My guess is because Lofwyr, thanks to SK, thought he would have a lot more influence in the game.
Or, more likely, got his tail handed to him on a platinum platter, and opted for the option that would have made that a less likely event. I think the Golden One is rather attached to his tail, and the rest of his scales.
Ghostwalker is the 200-lbs. gorilla of the Great Dragon world, from my read. Only Dunkie, his Brother, had a shot at standing up to him is the feel I get. Why he doesn't throw his weight around more is a good question. Probably still getting a feel for the world at large.
I don't buy it. Maybe in terms of pure power, but Ghostwalker flat out doesn't have the more subtle avenues of power that other dragons have been able to build. Ghostwalker is between 30 and 50 years behind the other Greats in building his power base. Sure, he has Denver, but Lofwyr has SK and Hestaby has...well, we don't know for sure, but probably a little bit of everything else similar to Dunkelzahn. Ghostwalker also seems quite a bit more physical than the other dragons...sort of the Harry Dresden of the dragon world. "Not so subtle." Or the less SFW version from Changes I am modifying slightly, "Screw subtle."
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Hey, he was the only easily approachable dragon in Earthdawn. And it seems he still is - you just need a present for him to even see you. In ED it was a nice side-income. My character is still looking for a nice piece of magic art to use as a gift. :)
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Hey, he was the only easily approachable dragon in Earthdawn. And it seems he still is - you just need a present for him to even see you. In ED it was a nice side-income. My character is still looking for a nice piece of magic art to use as a gift. :)
In the Earthdawn rules, (under his 4th Age name of Icewing) Ghostwalker was indeed incredibly approachable (up there with Vasdjenas, really), as long as you had a nice tribute for him.
In SR4, nothing seems to have changed in that regard.
As for his power base, in the material world may be a bit behind that of the big players (eg Lofwyr), but I understand Ghostwalker is much more Astrally active than other GD's (except perhaps Hestaby...sneaky wench that she is).
Seeing as Astral areas and Spirit favours can be a currency all their own, perhaps GW's power base is a little less visible, but no less powerful....
Note: Also, few GD's can openly claim that an entire city is theirs :) I'm just sayin' ...
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Sort of the Harry Dresden of the dragon world. "Not so subtle." Or the less SFW version from Changes I am modifying slightly, "Screw subtle."
This is how I see him as well.
The thing is, it was a purely physical confrontation that Loffy was starting to head towards. That's what I'm referring to when I say Ghostwalker would hand him his tail.
Ghostwalker reads to me as a very angry person in general in Shadowrun (Not so sure in Earthdawn), although approachable, you better be nice, as I'm sure there's a ketchup factory in Denver.
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Ghostwalker was the best mage among GD's in the Fourth World, and the best summoner. I don't think that changed, as Vasdenjas is dead (Dunkelzahn inherited his title of Loremaster), and Dunkelzahn also - those were the only two that could possibly be any competition in that matter.
He usually made the front entrance approach - like in ED with the whole war vs. dragons that Thera brewed after finding out that dragons also know the protections from the Scourge. They began targeting dragons, but lost their Behemoth (a huge flying castle-airship) in the process, and when they reached GW's lair, it was empty. Soon after, major players on Thera who were involved or profited from the dragon hunt started dying, and a dragon looking just like GW was seen sitting on the Sphinks, in the middle of the imperial city of Thera, just by the governor's palace every time someone 'mysteriously' died...
In short: he went to the enemy's capital and took revenge on his own. And soon after therans announced they will leave dragons alone if they don't spread information on the protection rituals - which they weren't really, at least not for free.
And who was the major power and political player in Earthdawn? Icewing/Ghostwalker. He even had his pet dwarven kingdom of Throal that was trying to unite all of the province against the therans...
Oh, and like Dunkelzahn, he really doesn't like blood magic, and such. It was the theran specialty - like their ships were fueled by draining lives of slaves, and such...
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The whole dust-up with GW read a bit like he he got off easy for handing the Azzies, The NAN countries, the CAS folks and the UCASers their collective rear ends in Denver. I mean, I get it that the authors needed somewhere for homeboy to set up shop and that Denver had been off the radar for a while, but come on. You don't go against five countries militarily and not get some serious political and tactical backlash for it. I thought there would be some sort of troop mobilization at least as a show of force. The whole Take Over thing read like it was an isolated incident between pocket mil-spec security forces. You'd think megas and entire countries would be so on a war footing as is with so many hostile neighbors that they'd return GW's wrath in kind. Hell, even biological agents would make sense. I mean, there's something to be said for the idea that "If I can't have it, nobody can" being still alive and well. Whatevs. I wrote enough.
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Ask the people of Tehran what happens when you get into a pissing contest with a Great Dragon.
Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you can't. They're DEAD.
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The whole dust-up with GW read a bit like he he got off easy for handing the Azzies, The NAN countries, the CAS folks and the UCASers their collective rear ends in Denver. I mean, I get it that the authors needed somewhere for homeboy to set up shop and that Denver had been off the radar for a while, but come on. You don't go against five countries militarily and not get some serious political and tactical backlash for it. I thought there would be some sort of troop mobilization at least as a show of force. The whole Take Over thing read like it was an isolated incident between pocket mil-spec security forces. You'd think megas and entire countries would be so on a war footing as is with so many hostile neighbors that they'd return GW's wrath in kind. Hell, even biological agents would make sense. I mean, there's something to be said for the idea that "If I can't have it, nobody can" being still alive and well. Whatevs. I wrote enough.
Most of that did happen, but not the way you're thinking. Ghostwalker shows up astrally and starts blasting the hell out of Aztlan's sector. So Aztlan starts bringing in troops. This causes a political fallout because no country is supposed to have more than a specific number of military assets for security only. So the other sectors started bringing in troops and resources not because of Ghostwalker, but because of Aztlan. Then Ghostwalker shows up with a body now and basically says "Mine." Not everyone agreed, but Ghostwalker did some backroom dealings and voila, Aztlan's out and everyone's happy having a dragon treating the territories of five of the six most powerful North American governments as his personal fiefdom. The transcripts of the meeting are actually pretty good reading.
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I guess. I still think five countries, all of which would be at high alert considering the UCAS president just took a public dump seemingly from "the bad guys", would have more to say on the matter then rolling over for a pervibial tummy rub. What if five countries in the post-modern countries went to war or at least went on a full offensive which would more then likely be the move considering tensions would be sky high? Abstruse, you're right. They were a good read. My frustration led to a re-read. My topic is off topic, though. DZ's legacy should live on through another plot line involving more Greats and Elves and Ninjas and sh*t.
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I think they just decided 'Nah, what the hell. If we won't get Denver for ourselves, then let's make sure nobody else does, and give it to the friggin dragon. This way we know where he lives, and he won't help himself to any of our territories.'
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I think they just decided 'Nah, what the hell. If we won't get Denver for ourselves, then let's make sure nobody else does, and give it to the friggin dragon. This way we know where he lives, and he won't help himself to any of our territories.'
It was also the only way to avoid a war. After Aztlan brought in forces, everyone else did too. If Ghostwalker hadn't been there to say "Mine", all six nations would've said "Mine" and with all those tensions would've exploded. Tense political war would've turned to shooting war very fast since Aztlan violated the Treaty of Denver (you know, that document that pretty much maintained what little peace there was in the continent) followed by everyone else doing the same.
Turning the city over to Ghostwalker was the only way to maintain the peace. Everyone got something in the backroom deal, and everyone also got Aztlan out the city which they all would've wanted for various reasons (mostly to break up the various voting blocks).
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Pretty much. The only people losing out and getting slotted off is the Azzies.
And, let's face it: Slotted off is their default setting. :P
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Ghostwalker did trash some of the security forces in Denver, some in each of the zones, but, with the exception of Aztlan, did it all in self defense (of course, random dragon flying around would spook anyone, factor in paranoid zone troopers and...). Aztlan he took special care of, and gave the entire Aztlan zone to the CAS and likely made several other concessions to the other local powers.
Plus, he's a great dragon. It's better to be working with one than on the business end of their flame thrower.
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It wasn't five countries on one side and a great dragon on the other. It was a balkanized city occupied by multiple competing powers (not all of whom had a direct territorial route to the city) each on their own side with a great dragon (accompanied by a substantial array of spirits) jumping into the mix.
And it's not as if Ghostwalker just woke up and blindly threw a tantrum. A lot of commentary discounts his planning and groundwork prior to assaulting Aztlan's (and Lofwyr's) assets in Denver to reassert control of his territory, just because it happened so quickly that it's hard to conceive of any entity working that fast. It speaks volumes of why Ghostwalker was one of the most dominant greats during the Fourth World.
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Well, Denver wasn't exactly 'his territory'. That's in Romania IIRC...
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Well, Denver wasn't exactly 'his territory'. That's in Romania IIRC...
Wasn't Denver Dunkie's old stomping grounds? He just moved to Canada after he woke up and got his own 'Trid show?
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Yes, Dunkelzahn awoke in Cherry Creek Lake, Denver. (Which also seems to make the Big D the only dragon I know of that awoke in a major metropolis.)
Re: Ghostwalker taking over Denver. You have to remember that A) he's a Great frakking Dragon, B) he emerged from an astral frakking rift, and C) he had an army of frakking spirits with him. Him taking over Denver (one city) is a lot more believable than Native Americans rising up and taking over the United States and Canada.
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Yes, Dunkelzahn awoke in Cherry Creek Lake, Denver. (Which also seems to make the Big D the only dragon I know of that awoke in a major metropolis.)
Re: Ghostwalker taking over Denver. You have to remember that A) he's a Great frakking Dragon, B) he emerged from an astral frakking rift, and C) he had an army of frakking spirits with him. Him taking over Denver (one city) is a lot more believable than Native Americans rising up and taking over the United States and Canada.
To be fair, the Native Americans had the Hispanics on their side. :P
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And volcanoes.
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And volcanoes.
Four volcanoes. That were previously dormant. About the same time that the world had just come to terms with the fact that people could run around casting spells and no one knew what you could actually do with magic.
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And volcanoes.
Four volcanoes. That were previously dormant. About the same time that the world had just come to terms with the fact that people could run around casting spells and no one knew what you could actually do with magic.
It wasn't that SAIM beat the USA, it was fear. No one knew if this was a warning shot or if the magic wielders had just landed their best punch. I imagine a lot of corporate puppeteers didn't want to find out since they weren't sure how to make a profit off the event. Better to let SAIM "win" and use the resulting chaos to twist law to the corps own benefit.
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He wasn't assassinated he "Sacrificed" himself to power an incredibly powerful focus. He then somehow became a free spirit named Lethe and ended up possessing a cyberzombie named Billy aka Burnout. He is as of last mention guarding a metaplaner gap that divides our world from that of the Horrors.
That crap is still supported as canon? Ugh
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He wasn't assassinated he "Sacrificed" himself to power an incredibly powerful focus. He then somehow became a free spirit named Lethe and ended up possessing a cyberzombie named Billy aka Burnout. He is as of last mention guarding a metaplaner gap that divides our world from that of the Horrors.
That crap is still supported as canon? Ugh
Aside from Rob Boyle (I think, might've been Adam Jury) dropping a plane on his head and killing him during Crash 2.0. Seriously.
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Huh? Burnout? Did he leave the bridge? Elaborate please.
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Huh? Burnout? Did he leave the bridge? Elaborate please.
Someone asked on Dumpshock when we'd see Billy/Lethe again after 4th Ed came out. The line manager at the time said a plane crashed on him and he died during the crash.
Basically, the entire Dragonheart trilogy was meant to do a couple of things. Explain how and why Dunkelzahn died and close off the entire Horrors subplot for good. Not sure if it was by design or by chance, but after that, the design philosophy of the metaplot changed. It went from previously where they would hint at events in one book, introduce them in another, expand on them for a book or two, and finally give them full game stats and treatments and the plot "closed out". A few examples of the previous philosophy would be Bugs (hinted in Secrets of Power, introduced in Universal Brotherhood, expanded in 2XS and Queen Euphoria, and closed out in Bug City), Horrors (hinted in every Aztlan/Aztechnology write-up, introduced in Aztlan, expanded in Harlequin's Back and Worlds Without End, and closed out in the Dragonheart trilogy), and IEs (hinted in Tir Tairngire write-ups, introduced in Tir Tairngire, expanded in Tir nA nOg, Harlequin, and pretty much everything involving either of those two countries, closed out in Threats).
The design philosophy afterward seemed to take a much more organic approach. Basically, they threw a bunch of crap against the wall and waited to see what stuck. They'd set up little hints about anything and everything, then expand on the ones people seemed interested in with a single book covering about a year of gametime for the event. The Corporate War, Year of the Comet, Renraku Archology Shutdown, etc. Then when they ran out of ideas, they'd make another set-up book, typically something like the Target and Shadows of where they updated locations and set up more possible events.
This pretty much stopped after 4th Edition as they were concerned with just getting all the "Core books" out (cyber, guns, magic, matrix, and options) for so long that they didn't develop the plots for a while. By the time they were done with those, the editorial staff had multiple changeovers and the license changed hands and honestly, I haven't been able to figure out what their design philosophy is now at all. I think it's having the same problem that other systems (D&D mainly) and comics have been having. They try something new, but thanks to the internet, they get INSTANT feedback of people whining about how it's different so it sucks so they never have a chance to follow through as they try to change to fit what people want. D&D kept getting complaints in 4e about how it's different so it sucks, so they tried to move back to something closer to the previous editions in Essentials and got massive negative feedback so they scrapped that and completely ditched their entire line and they've only got something like four or five books on the schedule for the entire year (which is big for a system that used to put out 1-2 a month).
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We're talking about Rabid Fanboys/girls. If there isn't something to complain about, they'll mis-remember something to complain about and refuse to believe otherwise when someone points it out to them. :P
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We're talking about Rabid Fanboys/girls. If there isn't something to complain about, they'll mis-remember something to complain about and refuse to believe otherwise when someone points it out to them. :P
Thus the problem the entertainment industry's having aside from novels (which are released long enough apart that fanboy wanking can't affect them too much). TV shows don't have it as bad either since episodes are aired months after they're filmed. Fanboyism about a plot development in Episode 203 won't affect anything when they're currently filming Episode 209 and Episodes 210-215 are written. Movies don't get it during the production since that takes place between 6-18 months depending on special effects, but the entire industry's torn between pandering to the fanboys and ignoring them ("This is a popular comic/video game/novel, let's adapt it but make it MOAR AWESOME by changing everything the fans like about it since our focus groups say it's too confusing or they felt sad."). Video games are immune because the lead time on game development is years (a game that's only in development for a year is considered a rush job).
Comics are scripted and drawn about 2-3 months in advance of release, which means that when they do something like change a character's costume or kill off a character, they get feedback they can use to alter the release. Same with RPGs except they can be changed much more easily since they're mostly text rather than art. And with things like PDF releases, those can be changed up to the day they go live (and depending on who's making the changes, even the minute). Things like blogs, webcomics, podcasts, etc. can all be influenced, but honestly their audiences are so small comparatively speaking and usually have such low production costs (mostly server costs and the initial outlay for equipment (mics and mixer boards for podcasts, Photoshop and drawing pads for webcomics)) that they can interact directly with their audience, either explaining what the basic plan is (or even just assuring the audience that there is a plan) or flat-out telling them to piss off if they don't like it (which is just as frequent since ego usually plays into these media).
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Ah yes, Ego. How glad I am to not really have one.
So, how about those Mountain Dragons?
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honestly, I haven't been able to figure out what their design philosophy is now at all.
Well, I was under the impression it was something akin to "provide players with material to incorporate into their campaigns so that they can have fun in this shared, ongoing universe."
As far as "bad" ideas go, there are only three options I see with the hindsight of playing and bitching and now writing for this game for most of my life:
1. Bitch.
2. Ignore it.
3. Make it better.
One of these options is fucking retarded.
As for that second post, uh ... What? All I can think is "It didn't take The King's Speech 12 years to get made because of SFX."
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You forgot make stupid comments and crack jokes. :P
In seriousness, "Make it better" is the only way I can allow myself to look in the mirror.
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Eh. That kind of falls into the "Ignore it" option. At least for the purposes of my point. ;)
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As for that second post, uh ... What? All I can think is "It didn't take The King's Speech 12 years to get made because of SFX."
I'm talking about from the start of production to the release of the film, not from the moment the script gets optioned or commissioned. I'm not even going to get into that politicking and studio bookkeeping nightmare of pre-production (for the record, Superman Returns was the most expensive film ever made solely because Warner Bros kept it on the books as the same film that Kevin Smith/Tim Burton/etc. had been working on since the mid-late 90s, even though not a single person stayed on that entire time except a couple of the producers). From the moment sets are built and the camera is rolling, a film typically takes 6-18 months until release. A rare few take more (not counting films that get held for years like Trick R Treat), but even fewer take less outside Corman and Sci-Fi Original Movies sort of speed demon productions. And even then, the film rarely changes due to fan input (those changes usually come from test audiences which is pretty much the bane of any director on the planet). The few times that does happen, it's not major changes. Typically just a few reshoots and a reedit like what happened to Snakes on a Plane after it became an internet meme (they reshot a handful of scenes and did some ADR for an R rating rather than PG-13 which was the original aim).
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As for that second post, uh ... What? All I can think is "It didn't take The King's Speech 12 years to get made because of SFX."
I'm talking about from the start of production to the release of the film, not from the moment the script gets optioned or commissioned.
There are more than a 'rare few' that take longer than the 12-18 months you mentioned.
With the advent of more and more CGI, the post-production efforts are becoming exceedingly astronomical. Examples:
- Avatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(2009_film)) - Premiere 10th December 2009, Production design initiated 2005 (while pre-development work had begun in 1994)
- Toy Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_Story)Released 1995, production initiated 1991
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As for that second post, uh ... What? All I can think is "It didn't take The King's Speech 12 years to get made because of SFX."
I'm talking about from the start of production to the release of the film, not from the moment the script gets optioned or commissioned.
There are more than a 'rare few' that take longer than the 12-18 months you mentioned.
With the advent of more and more CGI, the post-production efforts are becoming exceedingly astronomical. Examples:
- Avatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(2009_film)) - Premiere 10th December 2009, Production design initiated 2005 (while pre-development work had begun in 1994)
- Toy Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_Story)Released 1995, production initiated 1991
Pixar movies and James Cameron count as "a rare few" compared to the body of work put out by the major studios alone, not counting independents and foreign films.
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As for that second post, uh ... What? All I can think is "It didn't take The King's Speech 12 years to get made because of SFX."
I'm talking about from the start of production to the release of the film, not from the moment the script gets optioned or commissioned.
There are more than a 'rare few' that take longer than the 12-18 months you mentioned.
With the advent of more and more CGI, the post-production efforts are becoming exceedingly astronomical. Examples:
- Avatar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(2009_film)) - Premiere 10th December 2009, Production design initiated 2005 (while pre-development work had begun in 1994)
- Toy Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toy_Story)Released 1995, production initiated 1991
Pixar movies and James Cameron count as "a rare few" compared to the body of work put out by the major studios alone, not counting independents and foreign films.
Depending on the accepted definition of 'Production' these Pixar/James Cameron etc are not your only criminals here.
Does production start with Storyboards? First Film sequence? First CGI demo?
Depending where you draw the line, you can be talking 5+ for lots of movies *cough* Harry Potter, Star Wars, LotR *cough*
More and more movies are spending 2+ years in post production due to the level of Computer effects. More and more people are following in the footsteps of Cameron, Spielberg, Lucas and Pixar, so there's no reason to expect movie production times to start shortening....
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I just want to see more Pratchett movies.
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I just want to see more Pratchett movies.
Concur. Other half is a massive fan, and we're trekking off to hear him speak this weekend...
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*Pouts* One of my regrets in life is that I'll never get a chance to meet him. :'(
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*Pouts* One of my regrets in life is that I'll never get a chance to meet him. :'(
Is he dead? Are you dead? Didn't think so on the second one. If you work towards it happening it can. ;D
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*Pouts* One of my regrets in life is that I'll never get a chance to meet him. :'(
Is he dead? Are you dead? Didn't think so on the second one. If you work towards it happening it can. ;D
Is he dead? Not yet.
But the likelihood of me being able to get to England any time before he stops being Not-Dead are infinitesimally small. Smaller still is the chance of doing it while he's still doing public appearances.
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*Pouts* One of my regrets in life is that I'll never get a chance to meet him. :'(
Is he dead? Are you dead? Didn't think so on the second one. If you work towards it happening it can. ;D
Is he dead? Not yet.
But the likelihood of me being able to get to England any time before he stops being Not-Dead are infinitesimally small. Smaller still is the chance of doing it while he's still doing public appearances.
It was a very nice event. Sydney Opera House, him and his hat. Was great hearing him talk, and getting a few spoilers on the next book...
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Sorry to interrupt the derailment, just wanted to follow a different tangent: I'm interested in reading Ghostwalker's negotiations to secure Denver. Can someone kindly point me to the book(s) where that takes place? I inherited a lot of older SR3 books from a friend, so I may actually have it.
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Sorry to interrupt the derailment, just wanted to follow a different tangent: I'm interested in reading Ghostwalker's negotiations to secure Denver. Can someone kindly point me to the book(s) where that takes place? I inherited a lot of older SR3 books from a friend, so I may actually have it.
Year of the Comet, pp. 59-75. You may get some additional info from Shadows of North America, pp. 72-76.
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Great, I do have both books. Thanks!
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Does anyone know where I can find a listing of all of the bequests from Dunkelzahn's will that have been fulfilled?
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I think the Ancient Files had one, but i am not sure . .
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From what I can tell Ancient Files isnt around anymore :(
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nope, they are not. he took them down.
try the waybackmachine for example.
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*Pours a 40 for the old website*
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Ok, so now that the why Dunkelzahn died is out of the way. Why go through all the trouble to become President in the first place? Was that a last minute decision or had he put things in motion by selecting who'd succeed him?
The theory of the title of President adding to his power is an interesting one. I think, though, the reason he did it was to ensure that metahumans could be given SINs - UCAS had to allow non-humans to get SINs so he could become President.
It's certainly not a coincidence, though, given the timing - he had specific reason to be President before he "died".
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The presidency's fun to think about, but the stuff that will REALLY blow your mind is when you consider how he set up Crash 2.0 and the Wireless Matrix.
Don't think so? Consider this line of thought:
The Big "D" bequeaths all those Renraku shares to Miles Lanier. Miles & Richard Villiers then use that to set up a "falling out", so that Miles is considered trustworthy by Renraku. In the process of this long con, Miles and Richard are able to gut both Renraku and Fuchi, setting up Novatech to be the newest AAA corp on the market. But the process of creating the corp leaves Villiers strapped financially, so he has to go "public" with shares in Novatech, creating the biggest online transaction/presence/event EVER. This becomes a target of AIs, Terrorists and everyone else. After the Crash, technomancers are born and AI's become more prevalent.
Ipso Facto, Dunkelzahn created Technomancy.
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The presidency's fun to think about, but the stuff that will REALLY blow your mind is when you consider how he set up Crash 2.0 and the Wireless Matrix.
Don't think so? Consider this line of thought:
The Big "D" bequeaths all those Renraku shares to Miles Lanier. Miles & Richard Villiers then use that to set up a "falling out", so that Miles is considered trustworthy by Renraku. In the process of this long con, Miles and Richard are able to gut both Renraku and Fuchi, setting up Novatech to be the newest AAA corp on the market. But the process of creating the corp leaves Villiers strapped financially, so he has to go "public" with shares in Novatech, creating the biggest online transaction/presence/event EVER. This becomes a target of AIs, Terrorists and everyone else. After the Crash, technomancers are born and AI's become more prevalent.
Ipso Facto, Dunkelzahn created Technomancy.
You're forgetting a few steps.
Dunkelzahn also bequeathed 34 billions UCAS dollars to Art Dankwalther, probably knowing he would use al that money to seek revenge against Richard Villiers (though when so much psychology is involved, I'd consider the use of Divination is much more likely than straight fore-planning). 34 billions may not be enough to set up a competitor, but quite enough to fund clandestine operations against Novatech.
Also, and it is much, much more important, Richard Villiers and Miles Lanier plan involved Fuchi Industrial Electronics lodging a complaint against Renraku Computer Systems, officially suspecting Miles Lanier was using his knowledge of Fuchi security procedures to conduct corporate espionage. The complaint leads to Corporate Court investigations on both Fuchi and Renraku. To avoid his work being discovered by the court, Brightlight (aka Leonardo) left Renraku in a hurry, erasing all his works from Renraku systems since he joined in May 2057. This left Renraku without probably the only person able to fully understand the modifications he advised on the Seattle arcology expert system. Had Brightlight stayed around, maybe he could have stopped Deus early on.
For additional blowing, add Brightlight himself displayed otaku/technomancer-like abilities according to Black Madonna.
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The dragon did have his fingers in a lot pies, didn't he? ;)
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The dragon did have his fingers in a lot pies, didn't he? ;)
no.
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The dragon did have his fingers in a lot pies, didn't he? ;)
no.
he had his claws in all of them.
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Also add that he had written instructions for The Draco Foundation for EXACTLY the amount of time for Crash 2.0 to happen.
And, something tells me that the last instruction was: "Open Envelope Two Now. You'll find it in my sock drawer in..."
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Also add that he had written instructions for The Draco Foundation for EXACTLY the amount of time for Crash 2.0 to happen.
And, something tells me that the last instruction was: "Open Envelope Two Now. You'll find it in my sock drawer in..."
P.S. Get on JackPoint. Plan9 is a savant.
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He just needs to learn how to show his work more.
...
Then again, who wants to go into his apartment full of paperwork all over the walls and ceiling, with coloured twine connection various places, and which is full of BO due to his Conspiracy-thons where he's forgotten to everything for months at a time.
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And he's set off tonnes of Faraday Bombs
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Don't forget The Big D's note to make sure all children born after October 31, 2060. ;)
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Don't forget The Big D's note to make sure all children born after October 31, 2060. ;)
IIRC, Humanis destroyed the inoculations. :(
I'd know for sure, but Ancient History took down the site. :'(
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Don't forget The Big D's note to make sure all children born after October 31, 2060. ;)
IIRC, Humanis destroyed the inoculations. :(
I'd know for sure, but Ancient History took down the site. :'(
I have the back up, where should i look?
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Don't forget The Big D's note to make sure all children born after October 31, 2060. ;)
IIRC, Humanis destroyed the inoculations. :(
I'd know for sure, but Ancient History took down the site. :'(
I have the back up, where should i look?
Dunkies Annotated Will, and use a find command on either "Children" or the date.
BTW: I just noticed those boxes that AH wanted to know what was in so badly in Street Legends. They may *NOT* have been destroyed as ordered... And may come into play after all...
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PM'd
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Don't just PM, show the class! ;D
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Don't just PM, show the class! ;D
Well I hope UA doesn't mind..
To the corporations and governments of the world, I leave the formula for an infant vaccination that should be administered to all children born after 31 October 2060.
The vaccination was made based on compounds and enzymes found in dragon blood. Those who developed the vaccination believed they were imparting increased longevity to their children, while others (like Lofwyr) believed DUnkelzahn was attempting to create a new draconic servitor race. According to one of the leading researchers, the vaccine may have resulted in a new metatype, and the date was critical, as the mana level had to be high enough for the vaccine to activate. The vaccine was destroyed before it could be distributed by a raid of Humanis Policlubbers, who were indirect pawns of Lofwyr.
Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets, The Forever Drug
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*Points at Chrona* There, see, he did it, AH! Not me!
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*Points at Chrona* There, see, he did it, AH! Not me!
Right, no need to call the organleggers, CanRay is tonight's dinner.
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"Ghoul Cab: We clean up our own road kill."
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"Ghoul Cab: We clean up our own road kill."
"Ghoul Lawyers: We devour your problems."
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Ghoul Crime Scene Cleanup Crews
it'll be clean enough to eat off.
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Ghoul Crime Scene Cleanup Crews
it'll be clean enough to eat off.
Ghoul Crime Scene Cleanup Crews
it'll be clean enough to eat off too.
Fixed
Back on topic, the mention of the man stripped of all rights being mentioned in SL, by A. nonymous, no less, draws my attention.
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Ghoul Crime Scene Cleanup Crews
it'll be clean enough to eat off.
Ghoul Crime Scene Cleanup Crews
it'll be clean enough to eat off too.
Fixed
Back on topic, the mention of the man stripped of all rights being mentioned in SL, by A. nonymous, no less, draws my attention.
ok,, what about it draws your attention?
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I feel it's a deliberately chosen example...I can't really elaborate
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Does that belong in the A Nonymous thread?
Anyway, his will set up a lot more than just SOME things leading to the Crash 2.0. There are still parts of the will to be done. And who's to say that in a few more years, we get some books that "change the game" again, and we can look back on Uncle Dunkie's will again and go "Ooooh... THAT'S what that was for..."
Seriously, did FASA and that OTHER game company leave notes or something? Hell, I'd love to pour over those game design notes and piece things together. Who's to say the "immunization" wouldn't have brought forth the Obsidimen metatype? (To hell with the story of the Last Liferock.... They had to start from somewhere last go around.) I mean, if it was something unimportant, it wouldn't have taken up space in his will. I say EVERYTHING in that will was either moving a chess piece forward, or paying off old debts. Or both in some cases.
TL;DR - I WANNA SEE THE DESIGN NOTES! *cries*
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Does that belong in the A Nonymous thread?
Its been mentioned there and is relevant here
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I feel it's a deliberately chosen example...I can't really elaborate
A man stripped of his identity and a person that posts with no name...
Maybe my moniker of "The Poster With No Name" is more accurate than I thought... And here I was just doing a Clint Eastwood joke.
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I feel it's a deliberately chosen example...I can't really elaborate
A man stripped of his identity and a person that posts with no name...
Maybe my moniker of "The Poster With No Name" is more accurate than I thought... And here I was just doing a Clint Eastwood joke.
Yes that's what was nagging at me.
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Could it have been what's his face? There was someone in the Will who specifically had all identity, assets, and everything else stripped from him (I thought the limit was 18 months) and he could only get it back by proving that he was himself. (Granted, that was hard given that all of his health/DNA/Dental records were destroyed as well) The reward was a couple of Mill plus this guys stuff if you killed him and could prove it.
The section ended with D basically saying "And this is why the runners say: Never deal with dragons."
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I wonder what kind of spite that guy earned to get that kind of treatment from Dunkie.
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He ate his fries.
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Seriously, did FASA and that OTHER game company leave notes or something? Hell, I'd love to pour over those game design notes and piece things together. Who's to say the "immunization" wouldn't have brought forth the Obsidimen metatype? (To hell with the story of the Last Liferock.... They had to start from somewhere last go around.) I mean, if it was something unimportant, it wouldn't have taken up space in his will. I say EVERYTHING in that will was either moving a chess piece forward, or paying off old debts. Or both in some cases.
From what I've heard, no, there aren't such notes, at least from FASA and FanPro era. Line developers usually were way too busy with what they are going to actually publish to read about what was the freelancers' intent behind every word and what they would like to do if given the opportunity in an aptly themed sourcebook next year or a full epic campaign (that you know will be SR best ever !).
I remember someone went to FASA former offices as they were emptying the place, and pick as many boxes he could, with no idea of what could be inside. A few years later, that guy made a call as he had to empty his garage. I don't remember those who searched them made any significant breakthrough.
There was someone in the Will who specifically had all identity, assets, and everything else stripped from him (I thought the limit was 18 months) and he could only get it back by proving that he was himself. (Granted, that was hard given that all of his health/DNA/Dental records were destroyed as well) The reward was a couple of Mill plus this guys stuff if you killed him and could prove it.
The section ended with D basically saying "And this is why the runners say: Never deal with dragons."
For a period of ten days beginning on 14 February 2057, Lars J. Matthews will cease to possess any legal status. He will be stripped of all evidence of legal existence, including SIN, credsticks, DocWagon contract, bank accounts and so on. To the individual or group who ends Lars J. Matthews' physical existence during those ten days, I leave all of Matthews' assets and 1 million nuyen for a job well done. If Mr. Matthews survives and can prove his identity, his legal status and all possessions will be restored to him. Haven't you heard? Never deal with a dragon, Lars.
As a reminder, Dunkelzahn died on August 9, 2057, and several items in his will implies he did update his will between February and August. So most assume there was a typo here.
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Or the guy bought it and Dunkie just didn't get around to removing it.
Alternatively, he could have just used it as a message about "Never screw with a dragon" without ever actually doing anything to anyone. Seems his style, actually.
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The presidency's fun to think about, but the stuff that will REALLY blow your mind is when you consider how he set up Crash 2.0 and the Wireless Matrix.
Don't think so? Consider this line of thought:
The Big "D" bequeaths all those Renraku shares to Miles Lanier. Miles & Richard Villiers then use that to set up a "falling out", so that Miles is considered trustworthy by Renraku. In the process of this long con, Miles and Richard are able to gut both Renraku and Fuchi, setting up Novatech to be the newest AAA corp on the market. But the process of creating the corp leaves Villiers strapped financially, so he has to go "public" with shares in Novatech, creating the biggest online transaction/presence/event EVER. This becomes a target of AIs, Terrorists and everyone else. After the Crash, technomancers are born and AI's become more prevalent.
Ipso Facto, Dunkelzahn created Technomancy.
I like to believe that even though he did set these events in motion, he didn't see Technomancy coming. And if he he ever met a Technomancer who then explained where his abilities come from, said Technomancer would probably see the incredibly rare sight of a Great Dragon's jaw dropping in surprise.
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Really? Technomancers know where their abilities come from?
I thought it was a bunch of gobbledygook that translates into "Fragged if we know.", just like Hermetic Mages. :P
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Really? Technomancers know where their abilities come from?
I thought it was a bunch of gobbledygook that translates into "Fragged if we know.", just like Hermetic Mages. :P
This
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Really? Technomancers know where their abilities come from?
I thought it was a bunch of gobbledygook that translates into "Fragged if we know.", just like Hermetic Mages. :P
This
"But here's all the math proving that we don't know, and, thus, it's worth getting a grant for MIT&T, and giving me Tenure to find out further!"
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Really? Technomancers know where their abilities come from?
I thought it was a bunch of gobbledygook that translates into "Fragged if we know.", just like Hermetic Mages. :P
This
"But here's all the math proving that we don't know, and, thus, it's worth getting a grant for MIT&T, and giving me Tenure to find out further!"
Oh, nice try boyo. The grant, sure, apply for it. Get the grant, and publish a few times, and meet the other requirements, and we'll discuss tenure.
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Really? Technomancers know where their abilities come from?
I thought it was a bunch of gobbledygook that translates into "Fragged if we know.", just like Hermetic Mages. :P
Well, figuring it out is only slightly more likely than meeting Dunkelzahn.
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Well, he liked people. Both meeting and meating them, i guess . .
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Well, he liked people. Both meeting and meating them, i guess . .
I was thinking less meeting him and more getting close enough to meet him.
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Depending on his mood, the length of the meeting before the meating varies greatly. :P
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The Horrors is an idiotic Cthulhu nonsense that has no place in SR. Cthulhu is fine in certain circumstances. As far as I'm concerned, this isn't one.
Whether you like it or not, the cycle of magic and the dangers it brings have been part of Shadowrun since the game's inception. If you look back at the early days of Shadowrun, hints about an ancient magical past and dangerous bad magic and creatures started cropping up long before Earthdawn was published (Bottled Demon, Universal Brotherhood, and an early SR short story written by Jordan Weisman). This very dark and dangerous aspect of the Shadowrun universe is an integral part of the game, and always have been.
For you to suggest that a fundamental part of the SR universe doesn't belong tells me that you really don't really understand the game and what it's about.
And for the record, the Horrors are not "Cthulhu nonsense." The Horrors from Earthdawn and the monsters of the Cthulhu mythos are very different on many levels. Once again, this statement demonstrates that you really don't know what you're talking about.
That being said, personally, I don't think any of the Named Horrors from Earthdawn (with the possible exception of Verjigorm) really belong in Shadowrun, but the danger that the Horrors in general represent (even if they are appearing *very* early in the cycle) definitely belong in Shadowrun. Perhaps they shouldn't play a big part in the current meta-plot, but they shouldn't simply be dismissed either.
Take Care,
Lou Prosperi
Who worked with the people who created Shadowrun
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I really do not know all that much about the Earthdawn Horrors but they do add a certain energy to Shadowrun. A kind of urgency if you will. A looming danger in the background that makes it different from other dystopian settings.
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Well, dangerous to the Dragons and Immortal Elves.
Everyone else will be long dead by the time they show up, even regular elves.
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Plus there's the possibility - however remote - that something will go Horribly Wrong, and one or two (or more) Horrors will make it into the world. Who's ready to deal with that?
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Well, Harley's got a guild of MMORPGers that he's leading... ;D
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Great, so their online avatars are (probably) safe . . . what about the rest of the world?
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I just got done talking with The Almighty, he says he can get me out of this but your Fragged.
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The Horrors is an idiotic Cthulhu nonsense that has no place in SR. Cthulhu is fine in certain circumstances. As far as I'm concerned, this isn't one.
And this is coming from someone who has a Grade 6 physad and cyberzombie fight to the death and has no problem with a cockroach technomancer swarm. They may be far off on the horizon, but I do have my limits.
Whether you like it or not, the cycle of magic and the dangers it brings have been part of Shadowrun since the game's inception. If you look back at the early days of Shadowrun, hints about an ancient magical past and dangerous bad magic and creatures started cropping up long before Earthdawn was published (Bottled Demon, Universal Brotherhood, and an early SR short story written by Jordan Weisman). This very dark and dangerous aspect of the Shadowrun universe is an integral part of the game, and always have been.
Here's the thing: he gave an opinion based off personal preference, not a decree. He stated -- in the rest of his post -- that he goes lots of places with the game, and having read what he's published for the game, what he's written on the boards, his philosophy on 'what is written' compared to 'what is meant', and read what he's written even before he became one of the writers for Shadowrun, I can categorically state that while he may not personally like the Horrors, he accepts them as part of Shadowrun canon when he writes for Shadowrun. He's sunk his fingers into making things even darker and more dangerous -- and in my opinion, the Horrors have got nothing on the pain and anguish humans can inflict on each other, which is something James is trying to bring into the Shadowrun universe by making the political climate more ... realistic. Which in this case means worse.
For you to suggest that a fundamental part of the SR universe doesn't belong tells me that you really don't really understand the game and what it's about.
And for the record, the Horrors are not "Cthulhu nonsense." The Horrors from Earthdawn and the monsters of the Cthulhu mythos are very different on many levels. Once again, this statement demonstrates that you really don't know what you're talking about.
That being said, personally, I don't think any of the Named Horrors from Earthdawn (with the possible exception of Verjigorm) really belong in Shadowrun, but the danger that the Horrors in general represent (even if they are appearing *very* early in the cycle) definitely belong in Shadowrun. Perhaps they shouldn't play a big part in the current meta-plot, but they shouldn't simply be dismissed either.
Lou Prosperi
Who worked with the people who created Shadowrun
... I have to say, this strikes me as being the very height and depth and breadth of conceit and arrogance. You decide from two sentences of less than thirty words total (including articles!) that one of the current writers for the game 'really (doesn't) really (sic) understand the game and what it's about'?? That he 'really (doesn't) know what (he's) talking about'?
Lou, you wrote for Earthdawn, and were that product line's developer. I get that. You, before most others around, 'get' what you and those with you meant the Horrors to be. I spent fourteen years keeping an eye out for my copy of 'A Killing Glare', have bought 'Horrors', 'Blades', and 'Shattered Pattern' purely for reference material. I personally love the inclusion of the Horrors. I will tell you, though, that from many readers' points of view, Horrors ≈ Cthulhu ≈ Demons. You have particularly brought to the forefront the idea of them feeding on pain, agony, anguish, and psychological distress, but this is not new; this was not new when Lovecraft wrote about it. They made these stories when man was still using charcoal and clay as wish/intent-projection and wall art.
Your writing and story-telling? Good stuff.
To have you show such contempt to one of the current writers of the game? Bad form.
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I just got done talking with The Almighty, he says he can get me out of this but your Fragged.
Oh, well, there's always the next lifetime . . .
Reincarnation rules!!! 8) ;D
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@The Wyrm:
I have to disagree with you about Cthulhu monsters being very similar to the Horrors (or demons being similar). Cthulhu monsters, in general, do not care about the fate of humanity. This is stated (or implied) several times throughout Lovecraft's works. Yet they always seem to hang around to torment humans, or be the object of worship for a cult, or whatever. They have what I call "active disinterest" in humanity, to the point of one walking up to your door to borrow a cup of sugar, but without all that bothering to knock and ask you for it. It's really perplexing, even if the stories themselves are interesting and well written.
Demons want to torment humanity because they are evil. Period. That's it for motivation, they don't get any deeper than that. Demons will eat someone's legs because, oh ho that's really viscious and nasty and EEEeeevilll!! I can't write anymore about them because they don't have anything else there. They are really a very dull antagonist.
Horrors, OTOH, are much better villians and antagonists. They have a reason for coming to the Earthly plane, one that is easily understandable, even if their methods are not: Food. Perhaps it's harder for predators there to get sustenance without great risk, and so "our" world looks like a garden ripe with fruit to them. It may be a simple motivation, but it is one that makes far more sense than Cthulhu mythos ("We don't care about you, FEAR ME!!") or a demonic invasion ("RARR!! ME EVIL!!").
Speaking of evil, the Horrors are undoubtably evil, but not because they are Evil (twirl that mustache!), but because they perform evil actions. This is a crucial difference, and one that makes them a better foil. A monster that is evil because it is what it is (demons) is not nearly as interesting to read about, or fight against. Since they do have a clear motivation for their actions, they can be bargained with (not recommended), or someone can use that motivation against them. A clever hero can use their wits to thwart them, and not because a Horror is dim (often they are not) but because their motivation is something that can be understood and used.
IMO, Horrors are a far more interesting and useful antagonist than any mere Cthulhu creature or demon.
EDIT: I can't speak for LouP (and wouldn't want to), but that might be the thing that he is referring to when he speaks to Meiers. That's just a guess, though. LouP would have to clarify.
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I have to disagree with you about Cthulhu monsters being very similar to the Horrors (or demons being similar). Cthulhu monsters, in general, do not care about the fate of humanity. This is stated (or implied) several times throughout Lovecraft's works. Yet they always seem to hang around to torment humans, or be the object of worship for a cult, or whatever. They have what I call "active disinterest" in humanity, to the point of one walking up to your door to borrow a cup of sugar, but without all that bothering to knock and ask you for it. It's really perplexing, even if the stories themselves are interesting and well written.
The concept for Cthulhu mythos creatures is actually quite simple and direct: they are several stages of development (mystic/psychic, one would assume) above humanity. They are, to us, what we are to, say, cockroaches; amoeba or paramecium might be even better. They don't particularly care or need to care about (or even notice) our existence. We would not think about accidentally stepping on a one-celled organism, breaking into its house, or just living in the same place as it; we would not even be aware that they have a society, much less what some fragment happens to be doing (e.g. worshipping us) while we're going about our daily business. And with Cthulhu-mythos beings, the impact of the power of their psyches, even from the 'least' of them, causes enormous amounts of stress and can lead to psychotic breaks and other forms of insanity. It isn't a matter of intent, it's a matter of power levels. So yes, I would agree with you that Cthulhu monsters are not quite similar to Horrors; the Horrors, of all types and levels (right up to the Great Hunter himself) would themselves be several levels below those of the Cthulhu 'group', just due to their attachment to humanity. I'll agree that paralleling Cthulhuae (??) with Horrors may be a sub-ideal comparison.
Demons want to torment humanity because they are evil. Period. That's it for motivation, they don't get any deeper than that. Demons will eat someone's legs because, oh ho that's really viscious and nasty and EEEeeevilll!! I can't write anymore about them because they don't have anything else there. They are really a very dull antagonist.
Err, well, no. That's emo goth 'bad person' wannabes.
Demons -- if we're presuming these are those angels who rebelled in Heaven and chose to Fall instead of humbling themselves and accepting YHVH's forgiveness -- desire to torment, mislead, and cause the downfall of humanity because of a philosophical disagreement. Depending on the starting point, either Mankind either needs to be saved in its entirety (and the demons so torment us in order to prove a point against the whole 'each must make choices throughout life') or else Mankind does not deserve to receive such love and attention from YHVH (and the demons so torment us in order to display why they are unworthy of that attention. It isn't hunger; it's politics. A demon wants people first and foremost to Make Bad Choices, i.e. to sin, and will use any and all methods of persuasion -- conversation, debate, enticement, seduction, blackmail, threats, violence, torture, &c. -- to push their victim into committing sins. They are defined as evil by humanity and the Heavenly Host (who have written the history books); they themselves do not define themselves as being evil, except in the most whinging sorts of writing.
Comparing demons with Horrors is, again, sub-ideal; it'd be like comparing a person with a dog. The person is shooting the rabbits because they're eating his crops (the philosophical reason), and the fact that he can eat them is a secondary benefit; the dog attacks them purely because he's hungry.
Horrors, OTOH, are much better villians and antagonists. They have a reason for coming to the Earthly plane, one that is easily understandable, even if their methods are not: Food. Perhaps it's harder for predators there to get sustenance without great risk, and so "our" world looks like a garden ripe with fruit to them. It may be a simple motivation, but it is one that makes far more sense than Cthulhu mythos ("We don't care about you, FEAR ME!!") or a demonic invasion ("RARR!! ME EVIL!!").
Speaking of evil, the Horrors are undoubtably evil, but not because they are Evil (twirl that mustache!), but because they perform evil actions. This is a crucial difference, and one that makes them a better foil. A monster that is evil because it is what it is (demons) is not nearly as interesting to read about, or fight against. Since they do have a clear motivation for their actions, they can be bargained with (not recommended), or someone can use that motivation against them. A clever hero can use their wits to thwart them, and not because a Horror is dim (often they are not) but because their motivation is something that can be understood and used.
IMO, Horrors are a far more interesting and useful antagonist than any mere Cthulhu creature or demon.
And I accept your opinion. In mine, Cthulhuites (?? -- what IS the right term for the entire lot of 'em?) are interesting the way natural disasters are interesting, as an examination of humanity by how they react to an extreme situation. Horrors are interesting because despite their sentience, they are still motivated by that one thing, hunger; all they do is derived from the desire to satisfy that one need, in all its myriad forms. As you say, they can be fought against, thwarted, redirected, tricked, etc. -- but in essence and my opinion, fighting against even the most powerful Horror is to battle a near-sentient creature with a singular aim.
Demons, again in my opinion, are the hardest and worst of the lot -- because they are out to cause you to corrupt yourself. They don't need you to beat yourself up over it the way Horrors do (because that anguish is the Horror's bread-and-butter); they just want you to do it, because in so doing you are proving their point, that you don't deserve either a) free will, or b) redemption. Or c), both. They are the hardest to fight, because you aren't fighting them, you are fighting yourself.
So no, demons and Cthulhu beings do not quite parallel Horrors; in both cases, the Horrors are lesser than those they are being compared to, In a generalized form, however, all three can be considered 'wholly alien' to the human condition; beings from 'elsewhere', with powers far beyond what man has, and who torment/torture humanity for reasons of their own (or simply as a side effect of going about their own business). This is the point that James indicates, not the nitty-gritty of how and why.
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Watch out Gun Nut, someone has you in their sights. ;D
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[...] I'll agree that paralleling Cthulhuae (??) with Horrors may be a sub-ideal comparison.[...]
[...]In mine, Cthulhuites (?? -- what IS the right term for the entire lot of 'em?) are interesting [...]
The term you are searching is Great Old Ones (has nobody yet tried calling them the GOO?).
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Watch out Gun Nut, someone has you in their sights. ;D
Heh.
I've held off posting a reply for a bit while I chewed TWO's last post. Plus, I forgot about it a bit.
The trouble I still have with GOO's intentions (there, I used it) is that they don't have any. There is absolutely no motivation to them. They are, as has been pointed out, more akin to a force of nature than a real antagonist. For antagonists, their followers and minions are all the PC's are going to deal with (because wrestling a tornado is not nearly as survivable). The "crazed fanatic" story gets old pretty quickly, though. And without their masters to provide a truly suitable final opponent, GOOs just become window dressing. And while the curtains might be nice to look at, they make for boring conversation. So a GOO is good for a one off game or a single campaign, but IMO are only tolerable in low doses. Anything more gets boring very fast.
Demons, again in my opinion, are the hardest and worst of the lot -- because they are out to cause you to corrupt yourself. They don't need you to beat yourself up over it the way Horrors do (because that anguish is the Horror's bread-and-butter); they just want you to do it, because in so doing you are proving their point, that you don't deserve either a) free will, or b) redemption. Or c), both. They are the hardest to fight, because you aren't fighting them, you are fighting yourself.
Emphasis mine.
So, just to confirm, demons are (or bring about) people's worst nature seeking to bring them down for the sake of bringing them down. Evil for the sake of Evil.
While this can be (and often is) the subject of some great stories, and even great games, they, like the GOOs, are only fun for a single campaign. Unless, of course, one makes a demon something that can be directly combated and not something that gets dealt with only via hocus pocus , then the players have something in front of them to hit (the TV show Supernatural eventually went this route). This makes them more enjoyable to encounter on a regular basis, but it does errode their central idea or theme (fighting oneself). This turns them into "hack and slash" baddies.
Both are still lesser antagonists than Horrors. In the sense that an antagonist in a game is something or someone that can be encountered and (possibly) defeated by the protagonists i.e. the players. Neither GOOs nor (pure) demons are interesting enough long term antagonists to base a long term game upon. By long term game I mean a series of campaigns lasting multiple sessions each. Too much of anything can become dull but too much of either GOOs or (pure) demons tends to show up by the 5th session.
Horrors, OTOH, by their variety and their motivations, are something the players can encounter repeatedly, either through minions or directly, and still be interesting and engaging. Very powerful Horrors (VPH) can even have their own minions or lesser Horrors that the players must deal with prior to their final (?) encounter with the VPH. Or, the players can simply encounter the lesser variety, hacking and slashing their way through droves of near mindless baddies in order to save not only their own lives, but the lives and livelyhoods of others. In this, the Horrors play upon something primal in the human psyche.
One of THE most primal fears of any human being is being eaten. In this, Horrors are tailor made to go right for the old amygdala. They aren't here to revive some weird cult, to make you into a bad person, or to turn you into a monster. They may (and often do) do all those things, but they are doing it to devour you. Body or soul, all you are to them is food.
And this is why Horrors are better antagonists. That huge sucker punch to the gut: primal fear. If you lose to them you don't lose some esoteric idea of the world, you get eaten. If you fail to thwart their schemes, you don't become a bad person TM, you get eaten. And if you don't stop their minions from capturing and sacrificing their victims to their object of worship, you don't get sacrificed, you get eaten!!
For all their endless variety, Horrors want one thing from their victims...sustenance. Everything else is window dressing. And because of their endless variety, because their motivations are known, the players can encounter them again and again, in any form or any location and know that this fight is the fight of their lives. Because it is.