[Major Doom]

Seriously? Do you really think it took a report to see this thread? Trust me, the forum may be busy, but it's not that busy that the moderators would have "lost" this thread in the shuffle.

This forum is far from tyrannical. And they are NOT ban-happy around here. In fact, I'd say that you (and Critias) did push the envelope for the first time in the six weeks since this place started up. So, with pushing the envelope comes the moderators' establishing the boundary.

Now, stick to the subject and leave the name calling to other forums.

I finding the timing of the admin showing up, exploiting my comment, and threatening to ban me, suspicious of a report.  Just an observation that seems more plausible than idle surfing.

But I find it ironic there is no boundary for keeping other members from judging another members' house rules, quite harshly (subjective term I may admit) and not the least emotionally charged counterpoint.

Also, I would like to note that Critias' assessment of your ideas to add in new rules and restrictions and whatnot about lists of gear and other various things is fairly right on. He may not have said it in the nicest way, but I think what he was trying to get at was that there's a deeper issue here that needs to be resolved, and by adding new house rules into the mix, the only thing that will happen is more paperwork and more work on your end of the table, or perhaps the players resentment will rise, etc. None of which are going to help the problem or the gaming group.

I started this thread with a question looking for other options due to my situation of my players handling gear.  Some people early gave their insight, I thank you, some decided to judge my ruling quite voraciously, adding a psychological spin, stating that I have a deep underlying issue with my gaming group over one house rule.  That's a very subjective assessment that doesn't qualify a judgement.  What may not work for one person (or group) doesn't mean it may not work for another.

Personally, I think we have a really good, relaxed and pretty chill forum here, and the Mods are doing an excellent job. I doubt that anyone bothered to push the "report" button, and more likely than not, one of the mods was just surfing the forum and read your post because - believe it or not - the mods here are gamers like us, and are interested in contributing, participating, and reading what goes on here. If for no other reason than.... it's their job! So, much as I can see your frustration here, if you're going to have an attitude like that, I'd be surprised if your account lasts much longer - even considering how laid back the mods are around here.

Now, a bit of advice, and I say this with all the respect and friendliness in the world:

Chill out. We're all friends here, and just because someone doesn't like your ideas, or - heaven forbid - comes off as a bug ugly jerk face, the best thing to do is play it cool and let it go, we're all here to enjoy the game and the community. Sometimes it's just not worth stepping up to the perceived threat/challenge/insult. Really.

At this point, I think it's a mixed bag.  Some good people who'll want to assist, and some pretty judgemental people.  Granted Critias may have had the best of intentions to express that my house rule isn't something he would do, but it didn't come out at as that.  Then Max was right behind with a follow up to stoke the fires.  That doesn't seem friendly and chill to me.  But I'm the bad guy because I didn't want to be cowed.

And speaking as an (ex) forum moderator: Lipping off at the mods is a bad idea. Trust me.

To me this sounds like you are confirming my statement that questioning the way an admin handles a situation is forbidden because you'll just get banned.  You said we're all friends and happy people, but an admin going out of his/her way, exploit one comment, and threaten judgement isn't conducive to a forum.  And since you ended that statement with to trust you, I'm sure you doled out bans quite liberally and without much cause either.

So getting back to the topic.  Doom, it looks like you've mostly made up your mind on how you are going to handle this with your players.  Did you have other options that you were weighing?  Have you had a chance to talk about your ruling with the players yet?  If so, what was their reaction?

I'm sounding like a broken record at this point, but yes I am weighing other options because it's why I started the thread.  If I didn't care for any other options, I wouldn't have asked.  Sorry if I'm sounding curt, but this is getting ridiculous.

Major Doom asks, “Or will you ban me for questioning the admins handling of the situation?”
Yet if we go back we see Major Doom’s initial response to his warning, “Yeah awesome moderation here buddy.  Just exploit two words I said and ignore the entire thread's context.”
I don’t see your question about our handling of the situation. What I do see is less than polite and a statement aimed at being provocative.

I'm not surprised you don't see it any other way.  Instead of an admin remaining neutral, the admin exploited my statement only.  I'll admit my response was not polite, it was definitely not unwarranted.

As in your game we have rules, the rules are stated up front and clearly. You have been warned…twice. This is not a single individual’s sandbox, we want =everyone= to be able to express their opinions and ask questions in a FRIENDLY atmosphere. For those people who are able to abide by the rules we welcome them and hope that they have a great time here. For those who cannot follow the rules we can and will remove them for the sake of the community.

This one is a gem.  I'm going to take a page from the admins' book and exploit a statement here: "we want =everyone= to be able to express their opinions and ask questions in a FRIENDLY atmosphere".  I began this thread with a question seeking additional ideas, and I didn't get FRIENDLY advice from some members.  Maybe if the admins take a moment to refrain from firing off threats of banning, and observe that except for my two instances of an impolite comment, I've been pretty objective, friendly, and non-threatening.  So tell me, where is this FRIENDLY atmosphere where a member can't post a question without getting judged on a SINGLE house rule?


Regardless folks, I'm the bad guy and many probably want blood (hence at this writing I have a -11 to my rep).  So admins just get it over with and ban me.

[FastJack]

Okay, Major, let's go over where this thread went wrong.

Yes, you asked for people's advice on handling equipment and encumbrance in Shadowrun, and you got a page of responses before it turned into the argument it did.

It began when Bradd commented that since you didn't care about your player's opinion on the house rule. Your response to that was that you were dealing with "petty, irresponsible, and overly lazy players". Then Critias joined in with his opinion that if you viewed the players that way and enacted house rules without their input, then the situation would probably worsen.

Now, Critias' response could have been more politely written, but he's not one to pull his punches either. Overall, I think it was overreaction on "key words" of both of you posts that degenerated this into a name-calling diatribe. Each of you were focusing on those few words as personal insults and escalated with direct insults instead of perceived insults.

For instance, you took his calling your rule of "if it's on the sheet, you're carrying it" as "pretty ridiculous" as a personal insult. He could have worded it better, but he was giving his opinion on your ruling AND he gave you an alternative to the rule of having the players make two lists of "everyday" gear and "firefight" gear. You focused on the negative to your rule instead of the help he offered. This, in turn, ticked Critias off because he gave you advice and then you called him an ass for doing so. From all the posts I read of Critias, I can say that his heart's in the right place and he's only trying to ensure everyone is having fun playing the game. And, from what you've said of your group, it sounds like you're not having fun (and possibly your players as well).

Now, as far as the "smiting" of your account, I can't answer why people have done so, but it's most likely because of the tone of your posts and the spiraling down you've gone through since the mods gotten involved. Yes, some of your comments stood out because you were personally attacking another member, but Critias tried to break it off, understanding that his comments/opinions weren't welcome (again, he might have been able to word it differently). Unfortunately, you began to feel persecuted by others since the mods got involved. Instead of taking a deep breath, trying to see if you could've responded differently or if it may have been over-reaction to perceived sleights, you took on the roll that everyone was against you. And you're still doing it.

When the mods first came in with a warning, the first post was from Critias saying that a ban was not needed. The entire incident is nothing more than a disagreement that got blown way out of proportion. And, considering it's the first time it's happened on the forums, I'd say that no bans should be needed since we got to see where the "line is drawn" and now know where not to go.

There is no reason to ban you. There is no reason you can't contribute and have fun here like everyone else. If you feel that you still want to be a part of the forums, join in on other discussions. Add to the conversations, and try not to take anything personally. Remember, you can't write the tone of your voice when typing on a forum and you shouldn't imply a tone to things you read. It's the internet, man, if you get ticked off at every perceived slight from what you read, you're going to spend a long time angry. Only get angry at the direct insults.

[John Schmidt]

Leave it to Fastjack to cover all of the bases very well. 

For myself, I don’t “want blood” and would be perfectly happy if everyone takes a deep breath and move on from this.

[Major Doom]

For instance, you took his calling your rule of "if it's on the sheet, you're carrying it" as "pretty ridiculous" as a personal insult. He could have worded it better, but he was giving his opinion on your ruling AND he gave you an alternative to the rule of having the players make two lists of "everyday" gear and "firefight" gear. You focused on the negative to your rule instead of the help he offered. This, in turn, ticked Critias off because he gave you advice and then you called him an ass for doing so. From all the posts I read of Critias, I can say that his heart's in the right place and he's only trying to ensure everyone is having fun playing the game. And, from what you've said of your group, it sounds like you're not having fun (and possibly your players as well).

For the record, my first post had stated that I tried the "everyday" gear and "firefight gear in the past, with little effect since the players refused to manage their gear.

Now, as far as the "smiting" of your account, I can't answer why people have done so, but it's most likely because of the tone of your posts and the spiraling down you've gone through since the mods gotten involved. Yes, some of your comments stood out because you were personally attacking another member, but Critias tried to break it off, understanding that his comments/opinions weren't welcome (again, he might have been able to word it differently). Unfortunately, you began to feel persecuted by others since the mods got involved. Instead of taking a deep breath, trying to see if you could've responded differently or if it may have been over-reaction to perceived sleights, you took on the roll that everyone was against you. And you're still doing it.

Aside from pointing out Critias' ignorance in the matter, I was not antagonistic toward anyone.  Now before anyone cries foul, my provocative response to the admins was based on my opinion that they were not being neutral, along with threatening to ban me without taking the thread into context, I felt I had a right to respond equally in tone.

I never said everyone was against me, but honestly speaking, many probably decided to target me since my single house rule was absurd and defended it as objectively as possible.

When the mods first came in with a warning, the first post was from Critias saying that a ban was not needed. The entire incident is nothing more than a disagreement that got blown way out of proportion. And, considering it's the first time it's happened on the forums, I'd say that no bans should be needed since we got to see where the "line is drawn" and now know where not to go.

Ban not being needed maybe your and Critias opinion, but admins' opinions say otherwise.

There is no reason to ban you. There is no reason you can't contribute and have fun here like everyone else. If you feel that you still want to be a part of the forums, join in on other discussions. Add to the conversations, and try not to take anything personally. Remember, you can't write the tone of your voice when typing on a forum and you shouldn't imply a tone to things you read. It's the internet, man, if you get ticked off at every perceived slight from what you read, you're going to spend a long time angry. Only get angry at the direct insults.

Um I didn't get ticked off at every perceived slight, I got ticked off at only one.  Aside from that, I've been pretty diplomatic in the rest of my responses.  Now if my tone is interpreted as being aggressive, I can't help that.

Funny thing you mention contribution, because now I feel I have to walk on egg shells with members here, since my negative reputation keeps increasing, I get judged on ONE house rule, admins wanting to slam the ban hammer on me, and all I wanted was some ideas.  Yeah thanks, I feel all warm and fuzzy from the amiable reception.

Leave it to Fastjack to cover all of the bases very well. 

For myself, I don’t “want blood” and would be perfectly happy if everyone takes a deep breath and move on from this.

Seriously just follow through with banning me and get it over with.  If it helps, just think of removing a band-aid, just do it quick in one fell swoop.

[FastJack]

You're right. You did mention the two-list rule was tried in another game to no success. As for the Admins being neutral, I have to disagree. They warned you because you broke rules #1 and #2 of the ToS, after that, they warned both you and Critias for breaking rule #1. It may seem that it wasn't neutral because Critias is a Freelancer and knows the mods but, as I pointed out before, he wasn't attacking you personally, he was debating your position on the matter (again, he might have done so it better language).

If they really were being unfair, they would have banned without a warning, which is within their expressed rights to do so per the ToS. Also, they could have banned both you and Critias for five days per the ToS, but instead they passed out warnings. I'm not sure why you're asking to be banned at this point, but I don't think it's going to happen unless you seriously fly off the handle. If you feel so strongly that you're not welcome here, you don't have to come back. But I hope you do stick around since it's better around here with people with many different backgrounds and ideas (besides, how can I NOT like a fellow Big Trouble fan? ).

[Angelone]

If they really are that uncooperative start having them nailed. People are going to take their pictures put them on the web, and call the police when they see someone running around downtown Seattle with an assault cannon slung over their shoulder. Drop a cow or two on them from space.

I'm going to agree it seems you have an issue between you and your group. Explain to them you are not happy with the direction the game is going and what you would like to see. If they still refuse to put in the effort you would like, and honestly it's not alot it will take all of maybe 5 minutes to come up with the gear lists, start putting in the same amount of effort into telling the story.

People might think that's harsh and I agree, yes it is, however it's unfair to Major Doom that he's putting in the work to make the world go round and the players don't even seem to care about their characters or working with him.

Edit- I'm guessing these are your friends you are playing with so try not to ruin things.

[Usda Beph]

Drop a cow or two on them from space.

In our party we use Hippos... you know for a different flavor!

[voydangel]

I appreciate the responses from both sides of the story here, however, In a not-very-subtle attempt to get back on track....

@Major Doom: Ignoring all my comments about the thread drama - what are your thoughts/gut reactions on the suggestions I made in my post? (You seemed to overlook them, or at least, didn't comment on them.)

[Critias]

Doom, I've tried to bow out of this thread a couple of times now, but you just keep going, you just keep talking about me, and you just keep making it pretty difficult to want to stay quiet.  I apologize -- again -- that my comments were taken like they were.  I'm sorry that you don't like my thoughts or how I expressed them on your house rule, and I'm sorry that you don't like my thoughts or how I expressed them on the atmosphere of your game table, which brought that house rule into play.  You're obviously free to run your game however you want to, and if it works for you and yours, terrific.  I don't know your gaming group, I don't know how sternly you need to hold the metaphorical leash to keep a game going, so I'll just say -- again -- that I hope you and your players work out whatever issues you may or may not have, and can keep slinging dice and having fun.

I'll ask you to kindly do two things, however.  

First, consider that I've received a warning for this thread as well, and I didn't call anyone an ignorant ass (twice), nor have I been sarcastically calling your Dr. Freud, etc.  You're not some oppressed minority, here, innocent of all wrongdoing and being ganged up on by the powers that be.  You might consider the moderators taking objection to you calling me an ignorant ass (twice) as some sort of "exploit" of "just two words" from a post, but considering that you've obviously taken offense at my comments over what could no doubt, similarly, be boiled down to "just two words" of a post, perhaps you should reconsider your indignation.  "Just two words" can hold an awful lot of insult and vitriol, after all.

Second, consider that, as a general rule for making it through life, it's best to know the appropriate time and place to argue with someone in a position of authority (regardless of how genuinely authoritative they are, what nature of authority they hold, or whether or not you respect that authority).  Just like the side of the road with traffic whizzing past a grouchy highway patrolman isn't the place to argue a ticket, you may be well served in the future by not arguing a moderator warning right there, in the public thread you just got warned in.  

As someone who's been both a forum moderator, and a forum moderatee (for lack of a better term) for quite a while, I can assure you that you'll never increase their opinion of you, never improve their attitude toward you, and never appear to be more reasonable by arguing with a mod in public.  Getting more and more defensive and hostile towards a moderator becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy;  if you insist they're being jack-booted thugs long enough and loud enough, and dare them to ban you shrilly enough, eventually you're likely to be proven right, and to no one's detriment but your own.  Purely as someone who's had his fair share of interactions with moderators, and as someone who -- please recall -- initially, in fact, told the moderators I didn't feel their intervention was required in this thread...your best bet is probably going to be forwarding any more questions, concerns, challenges, or criticisms their way in private.  

As a general rule, no one likes their authority being challenged in public.  You obviously take offense to it when the players in your game don't agree with you -- particularly in the middle of the game, right? -- so you would likely be well served to remember that the mods aren't likely to enjoy it when forum posters disagree with them in public, either.  Just like most RPG sessions would run more smoothly if minor rules quibbles and GM interpretation disagreements were handled at the end of a session instead of in the midst of clattering dice, any given forum is more likely to run smoothly, and keep everyone relatively happy, when moderation disputes are handled in private and after tempers have cooled.

And with that, I'd like to once again bow out.  I'm not sure what, if anything, I've said in this thread that you'll choose to take further offense to, but if you do (despite my efforts to be pretty bland in this post), I'd appreciate it if you PMed me about it instead of further derailing this thread.  I want to see your game straightened out, and that won't happen if this little dispute between us remains the central point of this thread.

[Usda Beph]

But it's the minor rule quibbles that always derail a game in mid stride. The big ones normally raise their head before gaming because they are so glaring.

It's that sliver in your foot kinda rule that get's us hopping mad mid game.

As a veteran gamer both as a player and GM I have learned that in the end, THE GM IS RIGHT. It is his/her game, her/his rules. If as a player I don't like those rule I have the right to leave!

As a former Commando running games, I was told that as the GM my word was law at the table, if the rule was unclear My ruling was final, its like that for ANY GM. Players don't have to agree with the rule but they need to follow it. I have known DMs who made their players "Cast" their spells. So at the table if a mage cast magic missile the play had to recite verbale and make somatic jestures. In this case the player recited "Whirl, Click, Bang bang bang." while making gun finger motions. Me I decided I wouldn't play a mage at that table!

So therefore if Doom wants gear lists for in and out of combat at his table, the players either make the lists or choose to game elsewhwere. The players don't get to tell teh GM how to run his/her game. Suggest, neogotiate, beg, but in the end the GM runs the show. GMs are the directors players the actors.

Remember I am the GM who nuked his players into dust because they couldn't stop running a Wall of Gauss! That was how I had to handle the situation.

[Bradd]

Back to the original question: To fix your problem, you'll need to know why your players are sloppy about gear managment. Depending on their reasons, some fixes will work great, and others will just cause more friction in your group.

It could be that your players simply hate bookkeeping and gear management. In this case, leaning on the rules will foster resentment. Instead, it's better to take a flexible approach to gear. Leave things fuzzy from the players' point of view, assuming that the characters know best how to manage their gear. Don't worry about any specific piece of gear until it becomes important to the game. At that point, the player has to decide whether they're carrying or not. Want to use a particular gun? OK, but now you need to deal with the consequences of carrying it. Want to protect an item from a pickpocket or search? OK, you can say that you left it at home, but now you can't use it. In short, it doesn't matter whether you're carrying something until you need to know, and then you can decide on the spot. This method is especially good for handling Batman-type characters.

It could be that your players hate, hate, hate having their gear taken away. The players probably aren't being lazy so much as just desperately trying to protect their gear from harm. You can handle this the same as the low-bookkeeping approach above, but it's probably even better to simply stop going after the gear. The players won't be so pathological if they aren't afraid. The tricky thing here is deciding whether to tell the players that you're going easy on them. On the one hand, it will help them relax and trust you. On the other hand, it can interfere with the game's mood if you're aiming for distrust and paranoia. Frankly, I would recommend strongly against distrust themes in-character unless your players trust you fully out-of-character. This requires a bit of suspension of disbelief, but I think that's better than hostility.

It could be that your players aren't particularly touchy about anything, but simply want to beat the system. They're "cheating" to get what they need without suffering consequences. This is the one case where I think it's actually reasonable to lay down the law. Your old WoD rule is great for this, just enforce it. When the PCs head out, ask them whether they all have a list of "ready" gear. If not, stop the game while they deal with it. This could lead to an in-character planning scene, which is cool. You might also get the benefit of peer pressure from the players who do stay on top of gear management. Eventually it should be second-nature to keep stuff organized.

Things get trickier if your players are a mix of these types. If you're not sure, it might be safest to use the first solution, and just downplay gear management entirely. That's not ideal for the players who are trying to game the system, as they actually like the challenge of getting crap past the radar (in character or out), but it shouldn't actually irritate them. In contrast, if you get draconian with folks who hate bookkeeping, they're going to get pathological on you and start gaming the system too.

[Mäx]

I still think that the third option is the best and easiest.
Just use the old rule of gear lists and this time actually enforce it.
Either you the GM have a list of what gear every PC is carrying at this moment or the game stops until you do.

[Bradd]

There are player types who get massively annoyed by that, however. It gets really bad when you mix up, say, a player who hates bookkeeping with a player who hates game delays.

[The Cat]

I still think that the third option is the best and easiest.
Just use the old rule of gear lists and this time actually enforce it.
Either you the GM have a list of what gear every PC is carrying at this moment or the game stops until you do.

Somewhat related to this, back at the tail end of SRI, a friend, who eventually became a graphic designer, converted a deck of playing cards into his "gear list" (they call them ATCs, Art Trading Cards, these days) along with a "master list" on a character sheet (and eventually, a spare sheet of paper).  Each card was recovered and the surface used to write down the item and all the data on it.  When he could get a picture (mind you it wasn't as easy as looking for it on the internet back then) he included one, sometimes redraws sometimes photocopies from the books he painted over and so on and the occasional original art for stuff without images he could easily find and use.  At the start of a run, he'd go through his cards, select his gear and then drop the others back in the box.  If he swapped gear out he'd switch cards.  Eventually, he got into Magic: The Gathering (AKA Crack For Gamers) and started using the rather simplistic "card boxes" they had labeling each as "Self," "Home," "Safehouse A," "Car" and so on.

I liked the idea and started doing something similar with large Index Cards split in half (though FAR less artistically).  Over the years I've told people about this and seen a few variants.  For instance, in one of my current groups, one person prints off the pre-made business cards with her gear items, images of the gear and so on on a fairly regular basis.

While the "up-front' effort was fairly significant, the long run reduction in bookkeeping is staggering.  You always know what you have where and what can and cannot be used.  Simple paperclips keep everything organized during and between sessions and as a game goes on and gear begins to pile up it's easier to keep track of what you have.  In the group with the person using the business cards, they're beginning to  ALL do it and starting to trade cards for the same gear around.

[voydangel]

I've seen and used similar concepts to the gear card deck idea. It does work tremendously well. The only downside is all the work you have to front load to make it happen. I would kill to have someone make a commercial version of these cards for sale. Could be made like magic cards, with a pic, stats in the lower half text box, name in the upper left, dmg, recoil and AP in the various locations. Nearly an exact copy of magic cards. I'd buy them for sure. Hmm... if I can find time in between looking for a job and my overloaded college classes, maybe I'll dust off my old graphic designer skills and try to design a few. Anyone know a cheap and relatively easy online source for printing custom card sets on demand? Preferably one that has decent quality...