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Mara

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« Reply #135 on: <09-24-13/0130:07> »
Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.

Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.

New Dominion, the sequel series, wiped all the grime and dirt away, and even took away the Hand Grenade interrogations
by the Tank Police, took away the filter masks, and all that...and it was not really the same setting. They could have changed
all the names, and you still would not have thought it had any connection to the original series.

So..I think that helps illustrate the point.

GiraffeShaman

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« Reply #136 on: <09-24-13/0148:20> »
Quote
Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.

Great point. The next time my players go Pink Mohawk, that's how I'll deliver some gritty realism. You thought the cops had just SMGs and seven dice in their attack pools? Not tonight kids, meet the new Knight Errant Tank Patrol Division.

Mara

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« Reply #137 on: <09-24-13/0246:21> »
Quote
Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.

Great point. The next time my players go Pink Mohawk, that's how I'll deliver some gritty realism. You thought the cops had just SMGs and seven dice in their attack pools? Not tonight kids, meet the new Knight Errant Tank Patrol Division.

*shifty eyes* You know...given some of the ordinace I have seen players have? While I would not imagine them in MBTs like the Stonewall,
I can definately see Knight Errant and Lone Star having things like Strikers and Devil Rats for some situations..

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #138 on: <09-24-13/0251:30> »
Ah, but at the same time if all the grime got wiped away, that wouldn't be evolution - it wouldn't be building off the existing base.

Dominion: Tank Police was a great example of the Shadowrun setting. It was dark, brooding, and dystopian. Come on: The
police had TANKS.

New Dominion, the sequel series, wiped all the grime and dirt away, and even took away the Hand Grenade interrogations
by the Tank Police, took away the filter masks, and all that...and it was not really the same setting. They could have changed
all the names, and you still would not have thought it had any connection to the original series.

So..I think that helps illustrate the point.

IMO, it just illustrates something I already knew, and that is that sequels rarely get a fair shake from some fans that a show/movie/whatever has.
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RHat

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« Reply #139 on: <09-24-13/1010:23> »
Majority has no relevance in this context.

Since that seems to be the only real argument in favor of the "never changing setting", it is quite relevant.

And even if it did turn out to be the case on the forums, that doesn't mean that it is for the majority of all SR players.

I rather suspect the best form of the argument is something more along the lines of "a significant portion of the playbase".  It doesn't have to be a majority for losing them to be a Problem.
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Magnaric

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« Reply #140 on: <09-24-13/1050:46> »
Going to weigh in here and try to lend some outside perspective, since all of you guys make valid points, but it's hard to see the forest for the trees sometimes.

I've been familiar with the Shadowrun settings for a good while, but have only really had the opportunity to play regularly recently. However, I first played in 2nd Edition, so that's where that is. From what I've seen, certain things change while others must necessarily stay if not the same then at least similar enough to be recognizable.

The technology from 2E to 4E(which I am currently playing) has changed a bit, gotten more advanced, as it rightly should, since it reflects the change from clunky wired 80s tech to more neo-modern wireless stuff. Likewise, the plots, metaplots, schemes, conspiracies, and a ton of the people involved have shifted, changed, evolved, etc to reflect that life is not static. It moves. Constantly.

Now, the rules can change, the corporations and plots can shift, even the atmosphere can be altered a fair bit, but certain themes that make the setting what it is have to remain semi-constant. If they don't, the system ceases to be Shadowrun. Perhaps there is room for sub-settings, aka different locations, sprawls and whatnot that may have a very different feel to the main core game, sort of like how there's core D&D, and then there's the various campaign settings(Eberron, Forgotten Realms, etc). Just look at the difference between a game set in Seattle with a lot of cloak and dagger stuff, and one set in Bogota, where heavy armour and excessive ammo may actually be a good thing.

Through all that though, what remains constant is that corporations and nations are self-serving and monolithic entities, people everywhere get manipulated by other people, conspiracies are in fact common(just not commonly known perhaps), and society in general lives in a fairly gritty dystopian world, where there IS light and shining beacons of hope(depending who you ask), but the larger the beacon, the larger the shadow it casts. Shadowrun IS a dark, dystopian setting. Yes, it shares certain factors with other ones(you could run a Shadowrun-Mad-Max crossover fairly easily for instance), but it is it's own animal, and to change the nature of the beast is to fundamentally change the beast.

So, after that mechanical rant, here's the final point I think most people have missed so far, one that is purely in-game. Life has changed a lot in 20 years. It's changed more in 50 years. However, certain things haven't. Even in the 50s, 60s, 70s, etc, companies and corporations tried to get more power. It happened with Reagan, it happened with Clinton, and it's happening under Obama(using generic American examples as a constant, I'm Canadian). Likewise, technology progresses on, comforts and interests and music trends change, but people generally stay the same.

The first settings was in the 2050s, and it was established to be a dark, gritty, dystopian, "high-tech, low-life" setting. FASA designed it that way. Through subsequent editions, smaller things changed, but the world atmosphere largely remained the same, as no matter the circumstances, where there is money to be had doing illegal things for powerful players, there are people willing to do those things discreetly. In game-time, the difference between the first and 5th editions is about 20 years, give or take a few. So the difference in world view, atmosphere, etc would be about the difference between the 90s and now. Not actually that big of a difference, overall.

Also, final final point. While there is a dichotomy between Transhumanism and Dystopian cyberpunk influences, the two can coexist, in small doses. Someone earlier mentioned the Horizon/EVO example, which is perfect. The megacorps march towards what they see as a utopian world for their citizens, and the people who belong to the corps/want to belong see it as perfect beauty and harmony. However, a LOT of people don't want anything to do with that, and as such it's a relatively small and isolated cultures. Megacorps aren;t really isolated, but consider that only a couple of the Big 10 right now are really experimenting with these concepts, and at most they probably have a few hundred thousand employees. Not all that much compared to a world population of probably about 8 billion.
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Maskerade

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« Reply #141 on: <09-24-13/1953:47> »
I came to Shadowrun for the technoir, cyberpunk, sometimes-dystopic sometimes-crystal-spires (barrens vs arcologies, anyone?), the shady deals and the promises of a better life for those who just had the skill to keep their fingertip grip on both their lives and reality.

In short, it was a game that I loved.

Seeing that all be wiped away to get a tabletop Deus Ex: Human Revolution (which I loved, but it was a bit too clean for Shadowrun) wouldn't sit right with me, and whilst there are transhuman elements, that's all they should be to maintain the integrity of the setting: elements.

At its heart, you are playing a group of organised (usually) criminals who rob very powerful people for a living, and have to do so sucessfully every time. This really doesn't transfer well into a transhumanist setting, wheras it's basically the definition of cyberpunk, so to me, Shadowrun is fine as it is.
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« Reply #142 on: <09-27-13/1936:47> »
Transhumanism, as defined by Wikipedia is "The intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities."

I'm not sure how cybernetics and magic Don't already do that.

The link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

Judging from the context of the argument it seems more along the view of Cyberpunk grit and Noir stylings vs the more polished technologies of Post-Human style sci fi as developed by writers like Charles Stross (Accelerando) and Hannu Rajaniemi (Quantum Thief) which deals with more advanced types of science in their fiction that in turn influences the humanity of the protagonists in question.

Posthuman Definition According to transhumanist thinkers, a posthuman is a hypothetical future being "whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously human by our current standards."

Wikipedia Entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman

At the end of the day, I go by the rule that Gary Gygax left on the first page of D&D first edition.

"If you don't like a rule, don't use it, it's your game."

As far as whether or not Shadowrun is moving towards a more Cyberpunk or more Posthumanist (Or Transhuman if you prefer to think of it that way) style of science fiction is like asking if you got peanut butter in your chocolate or chocolate in your peanut butter.

The source material isn't stating it either way, but that's probably more because the writers just aren't using those terms for it. You can change your personality with a Personafix chip, and your body with surgery or magic to the point where you could literally become a different person, or, conversely, you could make other people change until they were as much like you, as you were.

Within the context of the rules, which means if you wanted to, you could have a go-gang that's composed of one person who just keeps kidnapping and converting other people to be like him. (I'm totally going to use this as a Game Hook now).

Now, that's a central tenet of Posthumanism, that bodies and personalities are mutable, even disposable after a fashion, and that's already in SR. Cyberwear and Personafix.

The fact that in the Shadowrun Wiki it addresses those deckers who were jacked in at the time of Crash 2.0 as being E-Ghosts.
http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence

However, I've yet to see any of those E-Ghosts getting back to a meat existence, nor have I seen any other kind of Engram Technology (ala Neuromancer) in Shadowrun. There's certainly elements of it there, but they are countered by the Ork Underground, Go-Gangs and Used Cyberwear, in order to keep the game somewhat true to its William Gibson/Tolkien roots.

I honestly don't think you're going to ever see a Shadowrun supplement come along that will say one way or the other because it would be needlessly divisive. Why not just give players and DM's the ability to play that kind of game if they want to, and leave it unspoken?

However, the argument seems to be one of Glamour Vs Grit, and as far as that goes it's a personal choice on the groups playing.
Me, personally, I choose Grit every time, that's my preference.

Reaver

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« Reply #143 on: <09-27-13/1956:18> »
Transhumanism, as defined by Wikipedia is "The intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities."

I'm not sure how cybernetics and magic Don't already do that.

The link is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

Judging from the context of the argument it seems more along the view of Cyberpunk grit and Noir stylings vs the more polished technologies of Post-Human style sci fi as developed by writers like Charles Stross (Accelerando) and Hannu Rajaniemi (Quantum Thief) which deals with more advanced types of science in their fiction that in turn influences the humanity of the protagonists in question.

Posthuman Definition According to transhumanist thinkers, a posthuman is a hypothetical future being "whose basic capacities so radically exceed those of present humans as to be no longer unambiguously human by our current standards."

Wikipedia Entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posthuman

At the end of the day, I go by the rule that Gary Gygax left on the first page of D&D first edition.

"If you don't like a rule, don't use it, it's your game."

As far as whether or not Shadowrun is moving towards a more Cyberpunk or more Posthumanist (Or Transhuman if you prefer to think of it that way) style of science fiction is like asking if you got peanut butter in your chocolate or chocolate in your peanut butter.

The source material isn't stating it either way, but that's probably more because the writers just aren't using those terms for it. You can change your personality with a Personafix chip, and your body with surgery or magic to the point where you could literally become a different person, or, conversely, you could make other people change until they were as much like you, as you were.

Within the context of the rules, which means if you wanted to, you could have a go-gang that's composed of one person who just keeps kidnapping and converting other people to be like him. (I'm totally going to use this as a Game Hook now).

Now, that's a central tenet of Posthumanism, that bodies and personalities are mutable, even disposable after a fashion, and that's already in SR. Cyberwear and Personafix.

The fact that in the Shadowrun Wiki it addresses those deckers who were jacked in at the time of Crash 2.0 as being E-Ghosts.
http://shadowrun.wikia.com/wiki/Artificial_Intelligence

However, I've yet to see any of those E-Ghosts getting back to a meat existence, nor have I seen any other kind of Engram Technology (ala Neuromancer) in Shadowrun. There's certainly elements of it there, but they are countered by the Ork Underground, Go-Gangs and Used Cyberwear, in order to keep the game somewhat true to its William Gibson/Tolkien roots.

I honestly don't think you're going to ever see a Shadowrun supplement come along that will say one way or the other because it would be needlessly divisive. Why not just give players and DM's the ability to play that kind of game if they want to, and leave it unspoken?

However, the argument seems to be one of Glamour Vs Grit, and as far as that goes it's a personal choice on the groups playing.
Me, personally, I choose Grit every time, that's my preference.


Wow, that was very well thought out and put together. Grats!


I see what you are saying. Personally, when I think "Transhumanism" I am seeing more sleek and polish... bright lights, white walls, sterile...clean.

Shadowrun has those elements for sure, but it feels very rough, new....


And the Grit or Glamour aspect is pretty much waaay on the grit side of things... Shadowrun at it's core fails without that grit. It's the "I have to sell my body, while my mind is asleep so I can buy food for tomorrow" attitude that makes the premise of Shadowrun workable. At least to me.

I just don't really see professional criminals running around in a society that has reached the typical view of "transhumanist" status-qo...



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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

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« Reply #144 on: <09-27-13/2038:22> »

Wow, that was very well thought out and put together. Grats!


I see what you are saying. Personally, when I think "Transhumanism" I am seeing more sleek and polish... bright lights, white walls, sterile...clean.

Shadowrun has those elements for sure, but it feels very rough, new....


And the Grit or Glamour aspect is pretty much waaay on the grit side of things... Shadowrun at it's core fails without that grit. It's the "I have to sell my body, while my mind is asleep so I can buy food for tomorrow" attitude that makes the premise of Shadowrun workable. At least to me.

I just don't really see professional criminals running around in a society that has reached the typical view of "transhumanist" status-qo...

Thank you for the compliment, I do my best to think out what I post.

As far as seeing a kind of grit to Transhumanist works, I suggest the Takeshi Kovacs series of novels, amazing work, and it really reinforces the criminal aspect of the person rather than the crime.

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« Reply #145 on: <09-27-13/2040:29> »

...
As far as seeing a kind of grit to Transhumanist works, I suggest the Takeshi Kovacs series of novels, amazing work, and it really reinforces the criminal aspect of the person rather than the crime.

thanks, always looking for new reading material.
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Crunch

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« Reply #146 on: <09-27-13/2110:40> »
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"The intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally improving the human condition through applied reason, especially by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities."

The difference between a transhumanist setting and a Cyberpunk setting is in the bolded section. Transhumanists believe that the tech will make is better. Cyberpunks believe that it only makes us more capable of acting on our worst impulses. A transhumanist believes that the tech will make you wiser, more good and more human. The existence of essence loss in Shadowrun makes it inherently a non-transhumanist setting, as in SR tech makes you less human. That idea is anathema to transhumanist belief.

Try reading Westerfields Risen Empire series. It's got a highly developed transhumanist culture at odds with a human empire.

RHat

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« Reply #147 on: <09-27-13/2115:17> »
Crunch, the very existence of the idea of the posthuman fully invalidates your central premise; this is the idea of a person being made something other than human via tech - loss of humanity is very much an element of that.
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Crunch

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« Reply #148 on: <09-27-13/2120:37> »
In transhumanist settings the "posthuman" is a positive ideal. Humanity is being cast away and replaced by something better. Doesn't sound like a cyber zombie to me. Transhumanist settings and cyberpunk settings share a lot of window dressing, but the underlying philosophy is different.

The transhumanist posthuman is an ascendant being made better through tech.
The cyberpunk transhuman has thrown away his humanity for a lonely crib and diminishing returns.

In other words the issue isn't "other than human", that's a common trait to both genres, it's whether that "other" is an improvement over the original model.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #149 on: <09-27-13/2125:16> »
Cyber zombies, in case you've forgotten, require a very difficult and rather powerful ritual for their creation. The "jar head" Cyborgs would be rather close, however.
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