Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: Vale on <04-03-12/1133:08>
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Hoi, chummers.
Looking for a little feedback on a pair of pistols I wrote up and wanted to get a little consensus on before I released them into my game. Used a couple modifications from the forum (marked with asterisks) which are linked at the bottom. Really I'm trying to get a feel for item creation and the bits I'm most concerned about are pricing, availability and fluff. If you would be so kind as to leave a little criticism, it'd be appreciated.
As an aside, Vale corp is a homebrewed AA corp I use in my games to allow for player and GM created content.
VC Pacifier
Heavy Pistol [Base Model: Ruger Super Warhawk]
7P, -2AP, SS, -, 6 (cy), 12R, 4000
Modifications: Caliber Upgrade*, Increased Cylinder, Smartgun System, Safe Target System, Melee Hardening
The latest in the Vale Corp line of self-defense weapons, the Pacifier has already seen it's fair share of action and received well-deserved praise. With it's increased caliber and reinforced materials, it is well suited to taking out enemies both up close and at a distance; a built-in smartgun and safe target system makes it an ideal choice for those looking for a powerful sidearm and law enforcement alike.
VC War Crime
Heavy Pistol [Base Model: Ruger Super Warhawk]
8P, -3AP, SS, 1, 8 (cy), 14F, 1250
Modifications: High-Power Chambering, Troll Weapon**, Smartgun System
What started as a request for a friend eventually turned into a full production line of these deadly revolvers. Created specifically to fit a troll's hand and usage, this revolver will be leaving holes the size of human fists in its wielder's opponents. Understandable, the corporate court and law enforcement have cracked down on the sale and ownership of one of these aptly named weapons.
*: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6651.msg117468#msg117468
**: http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=6373.msg111849#msg111849
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Honestly? They seem really overpowered to me. Especially since this would be what the gun takes with basic ammo. Now toss in what it would do with, say, ExEx or APDS. You're essentially talking about a pistol with the power of a sniper rifle. Even if you could get it to work in the rules, there are Things That Should Not Be(tm).
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Technically only the Pacifier can use any type of ammo it wants as the War Crime is limited to -only- High-Powered Rounds found in the War book. Even then, getting ammo for it would be hell as it has a 20F availability. But I do see your point.
I was honestly toying with tossing in a 'These guns cannot be further modified' for good measure.
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Well a Super Warhawk costs 250. High Power Chambering doubles that to 500, smartlink would bump it up to 750 and tossing in Increased Cylinder sets you at 1250 which is exactly the price of the War Crime. Likewise the stats seem to be exactly what a Super Warhawk with these mods would use, so I don't see an issue. Maybe include a reminder about the -2 dice pool penalty (there is some argument over whether it's a recoil penalty than can be compensated or not). Rather than saying it can't be further modified, how about putting that it can only take 2 slots of modification (what the super warhawk would theoretically have left).
As for the Pacifier, the main issue I have with caliber upgrade is that SR uses a caliber system where all weapons of the same class (Heavy Pistol in this case) use the same ammunition (meaning they must be the same caliber by extension). Personally I would drop the cost of the mod down a bit, but make the ammunition for this gun only and cost a certain amount more (and/or restrict what "varieties" it's available in to keep it from being the equivalent of the War Crime with no penalty). I would probably make ammunition cost 3 times as much and only be available in regular, gel, and hollow point.
I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
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I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
That's why I say it is one of the Things That Should Not Be(tm). If a player came to me wanting to do this, even if they could do it in a completely rules-legal way, without using homebrew things, I would still shoot it down. It is like running an undead campaign in D&D, and letting the rogue buy a +1 Undead Bane Rapier of continuous (spell that allows the caster to sneak attack undead) and a +1 Holy Dagger of continuous True Strike. Some things are simply too powerful.
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I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
That's why I say it is one of the Things That Should Not Be(tm). If a player came to me wanting to do this, even if they could do it in a completely rules-legal way, without using homebrew things, I would still shoot it down. It is like running an undead campaign in D&D, and letting the rogue buy a +1 Undead Bane Rapier of continuous (spell that allows the caster to sneak attack undead) and a +1 Holy Dagger of continuous True Strike. Some things are simply too powerful.
And yet we can have Adepts that punch for 12P and -3 AP. ::)
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I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
That's why I say it is one of the Things That Should Not Be(tm). If a player came to me wanting to do this, even if they could do it in a completely rules-legal way, without using homebrew things, I would still shoot it down. It is like running an undead campaign in D&D, and letting the rogue buy a +1 Undead Bane Rapier of continuous (spell that allows the caster to sneak attack undead) and a +1 Holy Dagger of continuous True Strike. Some things are simply too powerful.
And yet we can have Adepts that punch for 12P and -3 AP. ::)
And I would likely ban that one, too, or get them to tone it down to reasonable levels. Just because it is rules legal doesn't mean you have to allow it in your game. It is the DM's JOB to take things that would unbalance the game and hit them with either the banhammer or the nerfbat.
The two weapons I mentioned in my example are perfectly rules-legal. But they are hideously overpowered, which is why you won't see a competent DM allowing them.
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I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
That's why I say it is one of the Things That Should Not Be(tm). If a player came to me wanting to do this, even if they could do it in a completely rules-legal way, without using homebrew things, I would still shoot it down. It is like running an undead campaign in D&D, and letting the rogue buy a +1 Undead Bane Rapier of continuous (spell that allows the caster to sneak attack undead) and a +1 Holy Dagger of continuous True Strike. Some things are simply too powerful.
And yet we can have Adepts that punch for 12P and -3 AP. ::)
And I would likely ban that one, too, or get them to tone it down to reasonable levels. Just because it is rules legal doesn't mean you have to allow it in your game. It is the DM's JOB to take things that would unbalance the game and hit them with either the banhammer or the nerfbat.
Aww, so I guess no Zen under you? :'(
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The big issue is that guns just don't do enough damage. They're all crammed in such a small area that you really can have small jumps in power without treading into another groups territory. If you want truly gritty game play you can always do what I did for a post-apocalyptic one shot and multiply all the weapon damages by 1.5 (2 for heavy weapons). Then things are realistically brutal and you have room to play with ;D .
Anyway, the easiest way to get rid of the issue if you really don't like it is to just nix High Power Chambering. That said, remember the super warhawk already puts out more than an assault rifle round. Too much thought into this game kills it quickly. A lot of the popular revolver rounds were also used in carbines as well.
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I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
That's why I say it is one of the Things That Should Not Be(tm). If a player came to me wanting to do this, even if they could do it in a completely rules-legal way, without using homebrew things, I would still shoot it down. It is like running an undead campaign in D&D, and letting the rogue buy a +1 Undead Bane Rapier of continuous (spell that allows the caster to sneak attack undead) and a +1 Holy Dagger of continuous True Strike. Some things are simply too powerful.
And yet we can have Adepts that punch for 12P and -3 AP. ::)
And I would likely ban that one, too, or get them to tone it down to reasonable levels. Just because it is rules legal doesn't mean you have to allow it in your game. It is the DM's JOB to take things that would unbalance the game and hit them with either the banhammer or the nerfbat.
Aww, so I guess no Zen under you? :'(
In a word? No. Not without revisions to make him not broken.
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The only point of contention I have with you, Mirikon, is a divergence of philosophy. Rather than shoot anything down, I take it in stride and adapt. Sure you can have a Pacifier, but realize there's a gang called the War Crimes that you probably shouldn't cross. A pacifier? Good choice, a lot of Knights like that model too.
There's always a bigger fish.
I was hoping that the pricing and availability would counteract the relative power of the guns, at least somewhat. The reason the War Crime's availability is so high (comparatively) is due toots low cost and extremely high lethality. You wont be able to buy one at chargen and completely wreck shop and getting one later on will be quite a hassle.
The pacifier, on the other hand, is just at the limit of what you can buy at start, but comparing it against other heavy pistols (or most guns in general) it is quite the money sink; nearly a BP by itself. There are a lot of things 4 grand can get you and not many are willing to spend that kind of money on a sidearm.
At least that's my take.
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The only point of contention I have with you, Mirikon, is a divergence of philosophy. Rather than shoot anything down, I take it in stride and adapt. Sure you can have a Pacifier, but realize there's a gang called the War Crimes that you probably shouldn't cross. A pacifier? Good choice, a lot of Knights like that model too.
There's always a bigger fish.
I was hoping that the pricing and availability would counteract the relative power of the guns, at least somewhat. The reason the War Crime's availability is so high (comparatively) is due toots low cost and extremely high lethality. You wont be able to buy one at chargen and completely wreck shop and getting one later on will be quite a hassle.
The pacifier, on the other hand, is just at the limit of what you can buy at start, but comparing it against other heavy pistols (or most guns in general) it is quite the money sink; nearly a BP by itself. There are a lot of things 4 grand can get you and not many are willing to spend that kind of money on a sidearm.
At least that's my take.
Actually you can get it in character generation with Restricted Gear, and in game, with some of the dice pools I've seen people talking about (especially that Pornomancer), it may take a week to get it in your hands (conservative estimate).
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Fair point, which is why the Bigger Fish philosophy works so well as a counter argument. The GM can troll the players so much harder than they can the GM, but I'd never let it get as far as the players vs. the GM; this isn't Hackmaster, after all.
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I really don't see any problems with them if they can't be modded further. They are good but pricey, especially the Pacifier. The Pacifier also has the drawback of using high powered rounds. Pretty balanced imo.
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Honestly, I don't see the problem. Seems like a good gun to me, especially since all the mod slots are used already. Now, if Vale said that since these are production line, it still has 6 mod slots, I might have a problem....
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Actually, they are production lines, according to what's written in the original post.
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Remember, I'm still learning the system so the idea of mods being 'built in' to the gun is news to me. Its the reason i wanted to put the cannot be further modified tag on them, to try and clear that up. Sorry to mislead.
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As for the Pacifier, the main issue I have with caliber upgrade is that SR uses a caliber system where all weapons of the same class (Heavy Pistol in this case) use the same ammunition (meaning they must be the same caliber by extension).
It's just a simplification for easier game play and one that i would personally never use.
Infact i would laught for minutes if someone succested during a game that their going to take the bullet from their predator and load them in to their Warhawk or from their PSG enforser and load them into the Barret.
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As for the Pacifier, the main issue I have with caliber upgrade is that SR uses a caliber system where all weapons of the same class (Heavy Pistol in this case) use the same ammunition (meaning they must be the same caliber by extension).
It's just a simplification for easier game play and one that i would personally never use.
Infact i would laught for minutes if someone succested during a game that their going to take the bullet from their predator and load them in to their Warhawk or from their PSG enforser and load them into the Barret.
However, it is one of those things that is inherent in the game as it stands, just as spells causing drain is. Personally, I think the sourcebooks have done a decent job of avoiding the 'power creep' you see in some other games, where everything constantly gets bigger and badder and better. With a few exceptions, everything that is under availability 20 has stayed at a fairly stable power level even from the original SR4 book being out. The new books have offered increased versatility (You have your Steel Lynx, or there's that Crimson Samurai, or that Hachiman), and cosmetic changes (I, for one, love the color-changing enhancement to clothes in Attitude). The newer options (under availability 20, again. I haven't had opportunity to play with any of the uber-gear.) all are about the same power level as the older ones.
Adding in something that inherently increases the power of a handgun to do the same damage as a sniper rifle just runs counter to the way the entire rest of the game is set up.
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Adding in something that inherently increases the power of a handgun to do the same damage as a sniper rifle just runs counter to the way the entire rest of the game is set up.
You mean like high power chambering does?
Or just using AP fletchette.
All that the High Caliber mod is is a more sensible version of the high powered chambering mod.
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I GM a few people that love to try to mod out their weapons or gear to 'insane' levels... And I have found that the best argument is the ol' " if you want it, chances are someone else already has it, now do YOU want to be on the receiving end of it?"
If they say "yes", well you can probably guess what usually ends up happening pretty damn fast :D and after they make a new character, I politely ask them if they still want it in the game.
Mind you, I have my own ways of dealing with "min/max"ers of all stripes that usually (after a few rerolls) lands me with fairly balanced characters that everyone can enjoy.
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I think part of the gut wrench reaction to it is that it does hunting rifle damage with more AP in a smaller package with no drawback.
That's why I say it is one of the Things That Should Not Be(tm). If a player came to me wanting to do this, even if they could do it in a completely rules-legal way, without using homebrew things, I would still shoot it down. It is like running an undead campaign in D&D, and letting the rogue buy a +1 Undead Bane Rapier of continuous (spell that allows the caster to sneak attack undead) and a +1 Holy Dagger of continuous True Strike. Some things are simply too powerful.
>.> then the undead get bigger and better? Though a +1 undead bane of contious spell has to be waaaaay up there in price. I think the banes a +2 enchantment bonus? Taking it at least up to +3 territory where it's 18,000 gold just to pop it on there, then it's upgraded for a continous spell that's got to send the price skyrocketing. With the true strike dagger if they have to take a turn to activate true strike or only allow it a certain amount per day it should be fine. I mean you won't be facing strictly undead either... what created the undead? Probably Necromancers... and they ain't always dead. *grins*
Anyways, the guns themselves seem powered up but almost anything in this game can kill you. Not sure why you need bigger guns, a Super Rugar WarHawk hunts cars anyways.... <.< hmmm i wonder where i got that saying....