[Moonrunner]

I continue to be confused as to how people get this idea in their head that any table-top RPG ever has released without significant errors or unclear portions of text in important parts of the game, or been successfully an completely patched in 3 months, and then get "I'm gonna quit the whole dang game!" levels of upset about a game that - like all the others ever - doesn't hit that mark.

The state of completion for Shadowrun 6e is quite abnormal for an RPG of any standard.  I've been playing these games since 1983 and this quite possibly the most unfinished and mind bogglingly bad release I've ever seen.

We also do not have the luxury of waiting months to fix this game.  The game is quickly falling off the radars of gamers due to its shoddy condition.  Everyone I talk to outside this forum laughs at the mere mention of Shadowrun 6e.  People are jumping ship to more polished alternatives like Cyberpunk, Interface Zero, Android, Carbon 2185, etc.  If we wait much longer to get this fixed then this edition will never recover.  This is way worse than what the slow/limited response has merited thus far.

[Michael Chandra]

Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign, up to and including massive NDA violations and piracy encouragement (looking at you, Reddit mods violating your own anti-piracy rule), while lying about the quality of SR5 which they all hated before SR6 came out, all because they're upset the new edition didn't give them exactly what they wanted. /s

Seriously though, most archetypes are perfectly playable and there's only a few balance problems, yet people insist everything is the end of the world. I can run a campaign just fine, just needing clarifications while making temporary decisions for now. I don't see why people insist SR6 is broken beyond repair.

[Typhus]

I think 'beyond repair' comes from the fact that there's not much "fixing" you can do.  The margin for what can be fiddled is very small, as far as I have found when trying.  You end up in "rewrite required" territory very quickly when you start trying to adjust things.  "Fix" A, and B breaks.  The solution Michael has of just making judgement calls is really the only way one can approach the product on its own. 

Regarding fixes we might get from on high, given the volume of things stated as moving to the printers, and that this effort is on the same shoulders as the finalization of errata, my suspicion is that things which generate revenue will take priority over wrapping up the errata.  Previous history also makes people rightly suspect. 

Last thought from me is that it's also not really fair to SR to compare it to any other 'big name' (ie popular) product.  The production processes and scale are very different, and this leaves the final product in a different league.  I would agree the problems are at a higher rate and deeper nature than "standard" problem levels are, but I wouldn't call this product "standard" at this point.  It is going to fail most any comparison test you put it to, really.  The only fair comparison you can really make is to prior editions.  Things like, "is it better now", "do you like X", "would you play it" are all valid.  Comparing sales numbers, error rates, rules issues, fan reactions, community engagement from management, responsiveness of customer service, marketing strategy...this just isn't that shop, and it won't be for the foreseeable future.  SR6 and CGL are going to lose those comparisons almost every time.  Don't waste your time. 

It's disappointing to me too, but I can't change that. "Management" has stated they don't want to act on the negative feedback since it 'doesn't represent the player base', apparently.  Folks who want changes will just have to wait and see if anything trickles into the supplements that addresses any of the issues.  My guess is you'll see it there before any errata addresses it.  I will happily eat those words if I am proven wrong. 

[stuh42l]

Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign, up to and including massive NDA violations and piracy encouragement (looking at you, Reddit mods violating your own anti-piracy rule), while lying about the quality of SR5 which they all hated before SR6 came out, all because they're upset the new edition didn't give them exactly what they wanted. /s

Seriously though, most archetypes are perfectly playable and there's only a few balance problems, yet people insist everything is the end of the world. I can run a campaign just fine, just needing clarifications while making temporary decisions for now. I don't see why people insist SR6 is broken beyond repair.

I'm not sure laying this on reddits feet is logical or beneficial. Many people who purchased the game and have left reviews think the same way. The company hasn't really been forthright or willing to engage. There is no marketing to speak of. There isn't even an accurate website.

To put it in your own words, it makes you wonder what rep it would have if it was a more quality product, the company marketed it, and built its hype.

[stuh42l]

I think 'beyond repair' comes from the fact that there's not much "fixing" you can do.  The margin for what can be fiddled is very small, as far as I have found when trying.  You end up in "rewrite required" territory very quickly when you start trying to adjust things.  "Fix" A, and B breaks.  The solution Michael has of just making judgement calls is really the only way one can approach the product on its own. 

Regarding fixes we might get from on high, given the volume of things stated as moving to the printers, and that this effort is on the same shoulders as the finalization of errata, my suspicion is that things which generate revenue will take priority over wrapping up the errata.  Previous history also makes people rightly suspect. 

Last thought from me is that it's also not really fair to SR to compare it to any other 'big name' (ie popular) product.  The production processes and scale are very different, and this leaves the final product in a different league.  I would agree the problems are at a higher rate and deeper nature than "standard" problem levels are, but I wouldn't call this product "standard" at this point.  It is going to fail most any comparison test you put it to, really.  The only fair comparison you can really make is to prior editions.  Things like, "is it better now", "do you like X", "would you play it" are all valid.  Comparing sales numbers, error rates, rules issues, fan reactions, community engagement from management, responsiveness of customer service, marketing strategy...this just isn't that shop, and it won't be for the foreseeable future.  SR6 and CGL are going to lose those comparisons almost every time.  Don't waste your time. 

It's disappointing to me too, but I can't change that. "Management" has stated they don't want to act on the negative feedback since it 'doesn't represent the player base', apparently.  Folks who want changes will just have to wait and see if anything trickles into the supplements that addresses any of the issues.  My guess is you'll see it there before any errata addresses it.  I will happily eat those words if I am proven wrong.

It wouldn't be fair to compare 6E with the big names on quality if it wasn't also for the fact that very many 1 and 2 man publishing outfits are putting out tight and high quality games on the indie side. Some of those very indie games are even being sold at Target now.

[GuardDuty]

I think 'beyond repair' comes from the fact that there's not much "fixing" you can do.  The margin for what can be fiddled is very small, as far as I have found when trying.  You end up in "rewrite required" territory very quickly when you start trying to adjust things.  "Fix" A, and B breaks.  The solution Michael has of just making judgement calls is really the only way one can approach the product on its own.

I have no intention of playing 6E.  I don't even like the idea of putting the label of Shadowrun on anything from the last decade, to be honest.  Even so, I have followed fairly closely what people have been complaining about, and I can't immediately think of a single thing that, to me, seems broken beyond a minor adjustment or some common sense GM discretion.  There are pages and pages of arguments on this forum about various things being "broken", but they mostly just boil down to "what if I'm an abusive power-gaming player in a group that doesn't do that but the RAW allow it what then huh huh huh?"

There are many--many--things about 6E that I do not like.  Disliking how something is designed to work is different from that thing not working.

[Noble Drake]

The state of completion for Shadowrun 6e is quite abnormal for an RPG of any standard.  I've been playing these games since 1983 and this quite possibly the most unfinished and mind bogglingly bad release I've ever seen.

I've seen worse. Hell, I've seen worse in the Shadowrun line even (or perhaps it's just inverted nostalgia googles causing an overly-harsh view of the things I had to self-patch in SR2 and SR3). I've also seen worse that no one even complained about.

We also do not have the luxury of waiting months to fix this game.  The game is quickly falling off the radars of gamers due to its shoddy condition.

If you think Shadowrun really had much presence on the radar of the general gaming population at any point in time more so than now, I'd say you're kind of out of touch with reality - or at the very least, in some kind of different cosmos from that in which I've operated all these years finding that around 90% of the people I've ever met that even know what Shadowrun is are because I've introduced them to it.

And I think something is actually going right in regards to the public perception of the game since during the whole run of SR5 I had to special order any and every book I wanted and constantly had trouble with my FLGS getting them on for me, but now they've got shelf space dedicated to SR6 and even order-in special editions and accessories so that one of the players in my group could incidentally drop in and buy 2 sets of dice & edge tokens and a copy of the core book on a whim.

Plus, outside of a small handful of gamers I've only seen the likes of online, table-top players tend to be very patient people. They can wait for a new product, or for errata to patch up something they don't want to use as-is, playing with other stuff in the mean time - because there is always more to play than there is time to play it.

[penllawen]

Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws

”The messengers will continue to be shot until the bad word-of-mouth improves.”

[Michael Chandra]

because there is always more to play than there is time to play it.

Story of my Steam Library.

[adzling]

the core issue with 6e is the busted/ not working edge mechanic, there's no papering over that with errata.

if 6e was not so shoddy it wouldn't matter how many people complained about it online because once folks looked at the game/ tried it they would love it.

however, as we all know, that's not the case.

add on Catalyst's horrific track record of, well everything, and folks are not going to give them the benefit of the doubt anymore.

the tl:dr here is that catalyst has burned their customers one too many times and 6e's shoddiness is not appealing to people.

[Lormyr]

Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign

It's actually called an opinion, and just like yours is valid, so is theirs. You see a perfectly playable game with few balance problems, and they see what they see - I won't put words in anyone else's mouth, but in my case a playable but nonsensical and kind of flat edition with a wholly unacceptable level of editing errors (and yes, SR5 was the same editing wise - that is why I expect improvement).

I don't have the slightest idea what the edition's rep is in general, but I am confident that whatever it is reflects the quality of the product and not just what people say. Most people can read, and by reading you can make up your own mind about whether you like what you read or not.

I'm not sure laying this on reddits feet is logical or beneficial. Many people who purchased the game and have left reviews think the same way. The company hasn't really been forthright or willing to engage. There is no marketing to speak of. There isn't even an accurate website.

To put it in your own words, it makes you wonder what rep it would have if it was a more quality product, the company marketed it, and built its hype.

”The messengers will continue to be shot until the bad word-of-mouth improves.”

if 6e was not so shoddy it wouldn't matter how many people complained about it online because once folks looked at the game/ tried it they would love it.

the tl:dr here is that catalyst has burned their customers one too many times and 6e's shoddiness is not appealing to people.

Preach.

Bottom line, for every one Michael, there are substantially more Lormyrs, Stuh42ls, Penllawens, and Adzlings. Thanking Christ for small favors aside, none of our comments on either side matter in the grand scale of things. The product speaks for itself, and people will evaluate if they like or it don't for themselves.

[Ghost Rigger]

Man, makes you wonder what rep it would have if people weren't constantly exaggerating about its flaws and going on a crazy bashing campaign, up to and including massive NDA violations and piracy encouragement (looking at you, Reddit mods violating your own anti-piracy rule), while lying about the quality of SR5 which they all hated before SR6 came out, all because they're upset the new edition didn't give them exactly what they wanted. /s

Blame bad press all you want, but do you know what people are saying about 6e on websites that aren't reddit? Nothing. Other than the occasional "don't play 6e, it's a dumpster fire" when someone asks what edition to play, it's as if it never even existed. That's awfully indicative of what people really think about it, don't you think?

[0B]

The state of completion for Shadowrun 6e is quite abnormal for an RPG of any standard.  I've been playing these games since 1983 and this quite possibly the most unfinished and mind bogglingly bad release I've ever seen.

Incidentally, if you do have 1st edition errata, please let me know- the closest I've found were a few scanned copies of the KAGE magazine, and the rules in that were either extra options or clarifications (And I think only the first 2-3 issues came out before 2nd edition...) Either way, the hunt continues!

[Noble Drake]

Blame bad press all you want, but do you know what people are saying about 6e on websites that aren't reddit? Nothing. Other than the occasional "don't play 6e, it's a dumpster fire" when someone asks what edition to play, it's as if it never even existed. That's awfully indicative of what people really think about it, don't you think?

Did you know that even now, when it seems like everyone and their grandma is on the internet numerous hours every day, the majority of gamers don't engage in any kind of discussion about the games they like online?

I'm not saying SR6 is doing great, mind you, because I don't actually know that. I'm just pointing out that even if the entirety of people talking about SR6 all agreed that it is "a dumpster fire" that wouldn't necessarily be the majority opinion.

What I do know is that SR6 works well enough that I don't mind self-patching it for use at my table, my group's having fun playing it, and our FLGS has been moving SR6 products in significant enough numbers to keep space dedicated to the game on their shelves.

[Ghost Rigger]

What I do know is that SR6 works well enough that I don't mind self-patching it for use at my table, my group's having fun playing it, and our FLGS has been moving SR6 products in significant enough numbers to keep space dedicated to the game on their shelves.

Casuals infatuated by something shiny and new. They'll play a few games before getting bored of it and when they go back to their D&D campaign those products will just sit on a bookshelf and collect dust.