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Court of Shadows and Immortal Elves

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lokii

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« Reply #60 on: <09-17-16/0940:40> »
Another note: I said the Elven Court at Wyrm Wood was not a fae court and I don't think the following changes that. But I noticed that there is a fairy-like creature described in The Blood Wood: a songsprite.

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These small, delicate, beautiful creatures flit around on sparkling wings seemingly spun of gossamer threads. [...] Many song sprites are harmless, and visitors may see a few flitting around Queen Alachia's palace.

They are said to be a variety of will o' the wisp, so either they have been created by the magicians too or have developed in the meantime. Overall I don't feel the authors wanted to make a point about the origin of fae beings with any of this. But who knows.

BlackMyron

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« Reply #61 on: <10-03-16/2005:25> »
It should be noted that Harlequin angered Tir na nOg's "Lady of the Court" over their use of Celtic culture in the Aztlan SB:

LADY OF THE COURT:  It is also interesting that so many of the cultural trappings [the Aztlan people] have chosen come from a culture that is a mere 600 years old.
THE LAUGHING MAN:  Yes, always best to reach back to that really ancient Celtic tradition.
LADY OF THE COURT:  You are pushing me.
THE LAUGHING MAN: Yup.  <chuckle>

Rosa

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« Reply #62 on: <10-04-16/0509:32> »
It should be noted that Harlequin angered Tir na nOg's "Lady of the Court" over their use of Celtic culture in the Aztlan SB:

LADY OF THE COURT:  It is also interesting that so many of the cultural trappings [the Aztlan people] have chosen come from a culture that is a mere 600 years old.
THE LAUGHING MAN:  Yes, always best to reach back to that really ancient Celtic tradition.
LADY OF THE COURT:  You are pushing me.
THE LAUGHING MAN: Yup.  <chuckle>

Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.

But yeah it is a main reason why my reactions to CoS so far have been OMG, FFS, /Facepalm with the occasional Hmm interesting thrown in there, but what irritates me the most is how they totally and completely either ignore or directly contradict earlier products dealing with TNN or the Seelie Court/Faerie.

Sengir

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« Reply #63 on: <10-04-16/1415:07> »
Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.
Well, what we know about Norse mythology isn't much older, most sources were written after Christianization and not by people actually believing in Odin and his "harlequinesque" love for costumes ;)
« Last Edit: <10-04-16/1416:49> by Sengir »

RowanTheFox

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« Reply #64 on: <10-04-16/1426:21> »
Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.
Well, what we know about Norse mythology isn't much older, most sources were written after Christianization and not by people actually believing in Odin and his "harlequinesque" love for costumes ;)
For all we know, those cultures pulled their inspiration from the elves and the elves just reclaimed it after the awakening.
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Rosa

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« Reply #65 on: <10-05-16/0335:03> »
Yes this has always bugged me to no end as well, i mean i wouldn't mind if it was more proto-celtic or semi-celtic i guess, but when you read CoS and have read previous books dealing with Tir Na Nog and/or the Seelie Court it is sooo blatantly based on Irish mythology and faerie lore, which is no older than max some hundreds of years. I suppose you could argue that certain people have whispered in the ears of poets and historians over the years, but that kind of immortal-centric history i find irritating as well as it take any uniqueness away from 5th World cultures. The same issue is even worse in some of the ED products, where 5th World cultures have been copy pasted onto ED,  with the Talea chapter of the Theran Empire still in my eyes being the worst example ever.
Well, what we know about Norse mythology isn't much older, most sources were written after Christianization and not by people actually believing in Odin and his "harlequinesque" love for costumes ;)
For all we know, those cultures pulled their inspiration from the elves and the elves just reclaimed it after the awakening.

All culture is of course in some way based on what came before, either as a further Development of the majority culture or as a reaction against the majority culture. But this is not what we have here, the Whole Elven myths about the Tuatha de Danaan have always been basically a Xerox copy of celtic mythology, not inspired by, but a Xerox copy.

And yes if they did the same with Norse mythology i would object to that as well, but they haven't so far.

But as i said in my latest post, this isn't my biggest issue with the CoS, because that part of it isn't new. Rather it is how the CoS either totally ignore or just simply contradict former SR books and lore regarding TNN, the Seelie Court and the Fae. The way they treat the Tuatha de Danaan irritates me no end as well. The Tuatha de Danaan have basically gone from being ( in both SR and ED path of the Wheel lore ) the shining ones, a semi-divine progenitor species WHO occupies the "Shining Citadel" where the goal of the Wheel is to ascend to. In both SR and ED the path of the Wheel is a tradition which is at least semi-religious and which also as most religions give a certain legitimacy to the ruling system. It certaily did in ED and it certainly does in TNN in SR. In Aetherology we learned that the land of the Tuatha de Danaan is located to the North in the plane of Faerie. The Tuatha de Danaan is not mentioned at all in connection with the Courts, both seelie and unseelie. Now though, they are suddenly the ruling class of the Seelie Court and unfortunately by being pulled to the fore and put in the center, they have become ordinary. They are no longer the mysterious semi-divne progenitors, now they are a race of beings that are just as messed up and ordinary as any other metahuman race in SR, which of course Means that the Whole legitimizing effect of the path of the Wheel is gone, which essentially Means that they have done what would be the equivalent of proving that Jesus and Muhammad were just ordinary men, and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing. I'll stop ranting now but i could go on about the ramifications of several choices they have apparently suddenly made and how it impacts both SR and ED, this rant only covers the weird choice to suddenly make the Tuatha de Danaan the ruling class of the Seelie Court.

lokii

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« Reply #66 on: <10-05-16/1911:07> »
In both SR and ED the path of the Wheel is a tradition which is at least semi-religious and which also as most religions give a certain legitimacy to the ruling system. It certaily did in ED and it certainly does in TNN in SR.

I don't think that the path along the wheel of life in Earthdawn was associated with any temporal elven power or even a cultural power like the Elven Court. In fact I had the impression The Blood Wood is not addressing the elven spiritual beliefs at all and only discusses which of the two sects is more widespread and which named NPC belongs to either one of them.

Rather it is how the CoS either totally ignore or just simply contradict former SR books and lore regarding TNN, the Seelie Court and the Fae. The way they treat the Tuatha de Danaan irritates me no end as well. The Tuatha de Danaan have basically gone from being ( in both SR and ED path of the Wheel lore ) the shining ones, a semi-divine progenitor species WHO occupies the "Shining Citadel" where the goal of the Wheel is to ascend to. [...] They are no longer the mysterious semi-divne progenitors, now they are a race of beings that are just as messed up and ordinary as any other metahuman race in SR, which of course Means that the Whole legitimizing effect of the path of the Wheel is gone, which essentially Means that they have done what would be the equivalent of proving that Jesus and Muhammad were just ordinary men, and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing.

Well, the Tuatha De Danaan are the elves of Tír na nÓg or of the Danaan families anyway. And they believe themselves to be reincarnated elves who lived in a past age. In this regard I don't think there is anything mysterious about the Tuatha De Danaan back then. They were just other elves (or other elven bodies same soul). Also, if you look at the section "Meaning in the Myth" in the "Ways & Path" chapter of Tír na nÓg the interpretation of the Danaan myth is largely spiritual or symbolic. So not even the stories about the Tuatha De Danaan are a mythic version of true events. Basically like Hinduism or Buddhism an elf is a spirit weighted down by a body as a representation of worldly attachment that has to be stripped away to ascend (back) to a purely spiritual form. In their case by following the ways and paths.

I don't know what they did exactly with the Seelie Court, but insofar the Tuatha De Danaan are fae folk that seems to me more mysterious than what the Danaan families believe in. And the true mystery remains: who is this Danu person, anyway? ;)

Rosa

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« Reply #67 on: <10-06-16/0714:50> »
The path of the Wheel is very much Associated with temporal power both in ED and SR. It is closely Associated with "what it Means to be ( proper ) elven" and in ED this was the area of influence of the Elven Court, one which could actually be used to declare someone un-elven like in the case of Shosara. It also has the Whole shining ones, shining citadel part of it. In TNN the paths are very much the same as they were in ED, but maybe even more strict and Again they are central to "what it Means to be ( proper ) elven" and here as such falls under the purview of the Seelie Queen. In the old TNN book it is explained that she can actually use this power to change Tir politics though it does not happen often it does happen, sort of like it was with the Elven Court back in ED.

That is Temporal power borne out of being perceived as the perfect symbol of being an Elf.

The paths are also a Tool of social control in a society where social mobility is less due to people simply living very much longer, you need a system that people can channel their natural ambitions and energy into, the paths provide this and at the same time introduces the idea that advancing to the center of the Wheel takes a very long time. Of course in order to get people to follow such a set of strict rules and guidelines their Whole lives, there must be a reward for doing so, in the case of the paths this reward is provided in eventual ascension to the shining citadel, which is the home of the near mythical Tuatha de Danaan. In Tir Na Nog the Paths are this system in Tir Tairngire they had the Rites of Progression fill much the same function, which is to give the "illusion" of social mobility and even some limited real social mobility, while maintaining the Staus quo mostly, both systems are actually quite Feudal in their approach to adressing social status and the reasoning behind them.

I disagree with the notion that the elves of TNN see themselves as being Tuatha de Danaan. They call themselves the Danaan families, the top 8 amongst them call themselves the Danaan Mor, so yes they see themselves as related to the Tuatha de Danaan, as i said above, the Tuatha are the mythic forebearers of the Elves. They do indeed view themselves as reincarnated elves of ages past, because the idea of reincarnation is central to the path philosophy as it takes several lives to reach the center and ascent. Of course this Means that the path philosophy is even more about social control, it is the very incarnation of the idea of "Don't question your betters, they have spend several lives becoming this wise, so they clearly know better." and the "keep to your allotted role in life and you will be rewarded"  Funnily enough though this aspect doesn't seem to be present in the ED version of the path of the Wheel. As far as the ED path philosophy goes, don't look to Bloodwood but instead to denizens of earthdawn btw. Also in ED yu actually have two competing versions of the path of the Wheel, which is very interesting, but has been missing in SR ( until maybe run faster, which seems to imply that changes to the path philosophy has occured ).

By making the Tuatha de Danaan the "common" people of the Seelie Court you have shined the spotlight on them, so their every flaw and averageness is plain for all to see, they are no longer the mystical spiritual icons that can inspire people to follow the paths of the Wheel in order to try to emulate the shining ones, why would you emulate people that are just as flawed and ordinary as you are yourselves. In comparison what would hapen to western civilisation if people found out that Jesus was just an ordinary man and that the angels were just as flawed and ordinary as people are? This is the consequence that this ill conceived decision to suddenly make the Tuatha de Danaan the powers that be in the Seelie Court fails to adress. Unfortunately it seems like the author(s) of the book either didn't really understand how religion and myth Works in real life, or they just thought they had a good idea and failed to follow it through to it's logical conseqences. If they had decided to instead make the people in charge in the Seelie Court elves and/or the fae race called Elvar from howling shadows this wouldn't even be an issue because you would have maintained the aura of mystery and semi-divinity surrounding the Tuatha de Danaan.

Lokii's comparison to Hinduism or Buddhism is actually quite apt, but also Again an example of why this decision was the dumbest decision they could possibly have made ( ok maybe they could have made a dumber decision if they tried ). Why does Buddha inspire the Buddhists to seek Nirvana? Why does the Hindus seek to ascend through the incarnations. Because the idea hat this is somethig to strive for is maintained by the stories of the Buddha and by the Hindu myths. If people could suddenly see that Buddha was just a normal man WHO f*cked up and failed just as much as everyone else, do you really think they give two cents about his philosophy? Some would yeah, a lot wouldn't. The reason why these Things Work, both in Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity...etc. is because the rules and life philosphies are infused with the absolute authority of the Divine. Making the Divine or mythical ordinary you remove the absolute part of authority and it becomes just another authority no more right or wrong than any other temporal profane authority.

Another point of irritation for me in CoS in the way they have suddenly made the Unseelie Court into just another faction of the Seelie Court which goes totally against the previous incarnations of the Unseelie Court. Yes i know that the Unseelie Court has gone through some different incarnations in SR, but they were not necessarily mutually exclusive. But the most recent one was from Aetherology where we learned that the Unseelie Court was the 2nd great Court of Faerie and that the ruler of the Unseelie Court was Lord Gwynn ( see the Welsh Gwynn Ap Nudd ). The Seelie Court and the Unseelie Court had both been shunted into their fractured Hyper metaplanes existing halfway between the plan of Faerie and Earth because of a magical cataclysm due to both Courts trying to enact a major ritual to banish their counterpart from Faerie ( something that has als been changed to a slow erosion instead, which is Again another point of irritation ). As the Seelie Court was tied to Tir Na Nog, the Unseelie Court is tied to Mag Mell ( a mythical Island off the western coast of Ireland. I remember reading in some book or other about Alchera Islands showing up off the West coast of Ireland i just don't remember which book it was ). Now suddenly the Unseelie Court is "just" a secret faction of the Seelie Court. Why? Why go totally against what you just wrote in Aetherology? Also it makes the Unseelie less mysterious and less of a threat tbh. And again it seems like the author(s) haven't even read Aetherology or perhaps just assumed that no one else had read it.

Tbh CoS seems to me to be more about promoting synergy sales with the 6th World tarot than it is about actually dealing with an underdeveloped area of the 6th World.
« Last Edit: <10-06-16/0745:48> by Rosa »

lokii

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« Reply #68 on: <10-06-16/1539:53> »
Wheel of Life in Earthdawn:

It is of course possible that the philosophy of the wheel of life originated from the Elven Court but if so it seems to exist largely independent from it by the time of Earthdawn. And in theory I agree it certainly would fit into the domain the Court claims, but I'm pretty sure the whole segment on elven spirituality in Denizens is the same as The Blood Wood: there is no mention of a specific role the Elven Court plays. If the court took a strong stance regarding these philosophical teachings you would expect that the elves of Blood Wood belong to the sect of strict adherents, but they are majority free followers. And you would expect that at least they all belong to the same sect, but that's also not true. The Blood Wood, p.19:

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Though blood elves are free to follow the Paths on the Wheel of Life in any fashion they choose, the vast majority of them are Dae'mistishsa, or free Followers, including Queen Alachia. (Before Alachia, only Queen Failla did not follow Sa'mistisha.) [...] That being said, both the Talshara and the Escalanas ranelles largely subscribe to Sa'mistisha.

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Tuatha de Danaan:

See section "Important Names" from Tír na nÓg:

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However, many non-elven natives still refer to themselves as Irish rather than tuatha ("the people"), the official term describing citizens of Tír na nÓg. Elves of the Tír always refer to themselves as tuatha. Scions of the ruling Danaan Families refer to themselves as Tuatha de Danaan. [...] Because the Tír elves believe they have a unique, almost sacred role in the nation, they reserve the name Tuatha de Danaan for themselves. They refer to all non-elves as tuatha.

By the way Danu not a problem according to the bit inbetween:

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Years of misinformation to the contrary, this term does not mean "people of the goddess Danu." It means "the people of craftsmanship," or "the artistic people."

Later p.67:

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In the most recent Awakening, the elves have returned to claim Tír na nÓg just as their previous incarnations did in bygone ages.

And as I said the interpretation of the text "The Battle of Moytura" (Mag Tuired) does not point to a mysterious prehistory. For example the four cities are mental states. Or the burning of the ships that the Tuatha arrived on in Tír na nÓg is a metapher that elves cannot ascend before fulfilling a purpose in the Sixth World and so on.

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Just a side note: there is of course a widespread religious veneration of Buddha but Buddhism as a spiritual path to salvation is not actually predicated on a "belief" in Buddha. Rather the practitioner should examine the teachings of Buddha critically and follow them once convinced that they represent revealed truth about the nature of reality.

Rosa

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« Reply #69 on: <10-07-16/0232:53> »
Just a side note: there is of course a widespread religious veneration of Buddha but Buddhism as a spiritual path to salvation is not actually predicated on a "belief" in Buddha. Rather the practitioner should examine the teachings of Buddha critically and follow them once convinced that they represent revealed truth about the nature of reality.

The key Words here are "once convinced". Because once you are convinced of the absolute truth of Buddhas teachings, then you can start to use them to Progress towards Nirvana. It doesn't matter if it is the Buddha himself or his teachings you venerate, what matters is that all religious authority is by it's very nature absolute. You coud say exactly the same kind of thing about any religion. A christian is only a christian when he/she has examined the teachings of Jesus and have been convinced by them. After that point though they are believers in the absolute truth of Jesus' divinity and that he died for their salvation and so on. The Whole adhering to the teachings of Budda due to their absolute authority on how to achieve Nirvana is what makes Buddhism a religion, not if they actually whorship him or not.

Scholars of religion operate with two definitions of religion, a narrow definition where there must be a belief in supernatural beings present, and those beings must be a central core of the belief system. The problem with this definition and the reason why it isn't used very widely anymore is that for example Buddhism doesn't qualify as a religion under this definition. The wide definition of religion which is the one most commonly used now instead focusses on a belief system, be it a belief in a life philosophy, spiritual teachings, an ideology....etc. which includes rules and guidelines that must be followed because they are the absolute authority on how to achieve the desired end result. Under this definition Buddhism very much qualifies, so does communism as well btw and so does the Path of the Wheel eventhough the myths are supposed to be understood symbolically or spiritually or whatever.

« Last Edit: <10-07-16/0448:48> by Rosa »

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #70 on: <10-07-16/2052:24> »
Despite immense temptation, I am wisely going to not post a response because getting into a religious debate is like getting into a political debate - a fast route to a Admin Smite.  I further recommend that the topic in regards to religion be dropped.
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Sengir

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« Reply #71 on: <10-10-16/0710:01> »
and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing.
I was wondering about that, how do players actually get there? Some kind of mystic gate?

Rosa

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« Reply #72 on: <10-10-16/0837:21> »
and the fact that apparently now more or less anybody can travel to The Seelie Court further eroding any sort of special status the Tuatha de Danaan had Means that the reason to actually follow the path of the Wheel has become even more non existing.
I was wondering about that, how do players actually get there? Some kind of mystic gate?

That or some of the established paths or artifacts or being guided there, i'm sure i'm forgetting some, there's many ways to get there now.

BlackMyron

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« Reply #73 on: <10-17-16/0205:55> »
There's apparently an Event that happens in 2078 that produces a 'wandering portal' that allows mortals to circumvent the normal process of getting to the Seelie Court.

Opti

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« Reply #74 on: <12-05-16/1502:37> »
A little threadmancy to point to Shadowrun: Anarchy. There are a few adventures which will carry some weight with this group, I'd wager. Check and Seelie it for yourself.