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Binding & Down-Time Rules

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UmaroVI

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« Reply #15 on: <06-11-12/0255:03> »
My understanding is that the SRM FAQ's requirement that you buy hits overrules the normal rules about when you should and shouldn't buy hits. After all, it explicitly tells you to buy hits with Ally Spirits, and that most definitely has potential bad consequences for failing the test.

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #16 on: <06-12-12/1241:37> »
How did you come to that understanding? The rule you specifically quoted specifically says using the rule. It would take a special kind of mental contortions to presume that a rule that says use another rule actually meant to override that rule.

Therefore spirits and sprites cannot be bound or compiled using the downtime rules. Don't like it, get your GM to roll it against you during or after a mission, it's a cleaner fix anyway and keeps binding sprites and spirits from becoming casual or trivial.
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #17 on: <06-12-12/1317:29> »
A rule telling you to use the rules about buying hits meaning to not use the rules to buy hits is even weirder.

Bull did actually just say that yes, you do buy hits. I'm just arguing that the FAQ makes this clear, but maybe it should be explicitly spelled out when the new FAQ comes out.

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #18 on: <06-12-12/1526:50> »
How do you get through life doing so much selective reading. A rule telling you when it doesn't apply is actually fairly common especially in legal codes.

Bull's literal exact words:

"Any "automated" system will lend itself to being "gamed".  *shrug*  Not much that can really be done about that.

But yes, so long as you have a Gamemaster with the time, you can always do things "normally".  And if using Missions for home games, you SHOULD do that.  But for convention play, especially larger conventions such as Origins or Gen Con where everythings on a really tight time schedule, having some basic rules in place to handle non-GMed downtime is a must have.  But it's not perfect."

Bull

Now i would make the argument, and invite correction is that people, including yourself, thought they were gaming the system, Bull conceded that any static system can be gamed. However this particular part of the system cannot be gamed because of how the rules work.

The rules explicitly make clear that if the players could suffer bad consequences for test failure the game master should force a roll out. The downtime rules say that downtime tasks must be accomplished using the buying hits rule. Therefore if you must use the buying hits rule and the buying hits rule forbids activities where negative consequences could be suffered for failure (which you could argue, poorly) you cannot do them during downtime. Therefore by the rules and by the FAQ which refrences those rules you cannot bind or register during downtime.

Just because the rules don't read the way you want them to or even believed they did doesn't make them unclear.
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #19 on: <06-12-12/1548:45> »
I'm not going to pick apart what Bull just said, but I think if he meant to say "no, you can't buy hits for binding or registering" he would have said that, rather than explaining how the system being "game-able" to an extent is unfortunate but unavoidable. If you couldn't buy the hits for binding or registering, you wouldn't be able to game it, would you?

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #20 on: <06-12-12/1553:35> »
So you would instead make the argument that Bull's intent is to reverse on here what's actually posted in the FAQ and Rules. In the process of saying that the rules are game able?

Personally I'm even open to the interpretation that Bull thought that you could buy hits for this, having not read the rules himself recently. Your belief seems to be that his posting on here reverses something in the rules/FAQ even though he didn't even state something explicitly.

Now personally i know that's not the case as otherwise Possession traditions and that other garbage would be explicitly gone. Again, really really wanting something to be a certain way doesn't make it reality.
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

UmaroVI

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« Reply #21 on: <06-12-12/1659:46> »
Seeing as Bull wrote the FAQ, I think he is quite qualified to explain what he meant, even if it isn't up to the standards of legal code.

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #22 on: <06-12-12/1711:37> »
"Yes, characters may conjure an ally (p. 103, Street Magic). All of the standard rules for materials, extended tests, and buying hits between Missions apply." (p. 10, Missions FAQ)

The conjuring ritual for an ally spirit uses exactly the same rules as summoning and binding any other spirit...it even says so.  (p. 104, Street Magic, first paragraph under Conjuring Ritual)

I see no reason why a regular summon/bind attempt should be any different.  I would say, though, that if one test is rolled at the table, all relevant rolls have to be made at the table for the binding to be valid...no rolling your own Binding and making the spirit buy hits or anything cheesy like that.

Lurker, I think you're being a little too strict with the wording on the Buying Hits rule:  "If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits" (p. 62, SR4A).  By that logic, you shouldn't allow characters to buy hits when acquiring gear, because they "may" attract unwanted attention from authorities, mafia, etc. on a glitch (p. 312, SR4A).  "Should" is a recommendation, "must" (or omitting the phrase altogether) is a requirement.  The Missions FAQ has interpreted "should" a little differently (in the cases of both buying gear and conjuring an ally spirit) in the interest of allowing characters to do stuff during downtime without hounding a GM while (s)he is trying to get food in the last 5 minutes before the next convention slot.
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
Missions Freelancer (SRM 04-10 Romero & Juliette, SRM 05-01 Chasin' the Wind, SRM 06-06 Falling Angels, PM-02 A Holy Piece of Wetwork)

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #23 on: <06-14-12/1556:35> »
A strict interpretation is the only possible way for a living campagin to succeed. If you allow the "oh i'll just work out the math and auto bind/register betwen missions it creates a vastly different power dynamic which can reduce the convention experience for some and also leads to people often complaining the missions are too easy. In my mind it doesn't matter that the rules for ally spirits are exactly the same one strict exception to a rule does not make all like exceptions valid. For all that it's worth if i'm involved in the discussion of the next FAQ i'll bring this up so we can hopefully get it ruled one way or another. Now if i had my druthers I would explitly ban buying hits (and this is not because of my usual openly stated anti-mage bias, but rather that I don't think binding/summoning should ever be trivial or a sure thing. Characters can and do die from failing these tasks.
"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

Black

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« Reply #24 on: <06-14-12/1834:44> »
Having never had the pleasure of playing Shadowrun Missions at a con, I may be incorrect here...  But I thought a fair bit of Trust is involved in these things by there very nature.

Given that trust is a major underlying theme, and that the actual game time at cons is very, very limited, oh and that the GM is likely to change from Mission to Mission...

Does it matter if the hits are bought or not?  Not sure its ideal for a Convention Gm to get too caught up on what happens between Missions, but rather focus on getting the game rolling.

Also, could you please be a bit more respectful to Bull.  He and the Missions team do a great job (and one day, one day, I will play a Mission run by Catalyst at a con...)
Perception molds reality
Change perception and reality will follow
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lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #25 on: <06-14-12/2200:08> »
I do not know where you got the impression I am being disrespectful to Bull. Frankly i'm rather amused by it. Likewise if Fringe is who i think he is I have naught but the utmost respect for him. Otherwise he still get garden variety respect. Having said that I stand by my statement that a singular exception does not a blanket exception make. That by the most basic read of the FAQ and the rules the practice is verboten. This not matching up with peoples past behavior or expectation does not my problem make.

Now you state you've never been to a Con but then tell us what we (and i'll use that term, because I do GM a fair amount at conventions, especially the big two) should focus on. The problem here is this, the FAQ and the rules are our guide posts, they get everyone on the same page and playing the game game. We don't do a lot of checking because yes it is a time and a trust issue. Recently, especially at this last Origins I saw a frightening amount of bound spirits and especially registered sprites with insane numbers of services from some paties, and I did wonder where they were coming from. Based on a strict reading of the rules you cannot bind or compile in downtime, via buying hits. If Bull comes in here and tells me my interpretation is wrong I will shut up and color, such is his purview.  But until then the FAQ and rules stand as highest arbitration. I know from personal experience that there have been some changes that Bull would like to make but has held off on because he didn't have time to do a full FAQ rewrite (mind control, possession spirits, etc) so what i'm saying in the few actual instances in the few places where Bull hasn't liked something but the FAQ allowed it, it's gotten to stand.

Without putting too fine a point on it I know this because I'm on the missions team. I just checked and made sure I still had my super secret club house access and everything. That's not to say that I think that makes me any greater authority, it doesn't. I point it out to show that my comments arn't coming from a vacuum, but things I've actually observed in play and going over feedback.

"And if the options are "talk to him like a grown up" versus "LOLOLOL murder him in his face until he doesn't come back," I know which suggestion I'm making." - Critias

No team I'm on has ever had a problem with group think.

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #26 on: <06-14-12/2322:03> »
Thanks, lurker.  If you're using the same name as on the other forum, we've played at the same table (and you've GMed for me once as well), and I do respect your viewpoint.  Actually, this discussion is largely irrelevant for my Missions mage (also Fringe) because that character doesn't bind spirits (Incompetence: Binding) for RP reasons.

But yes, I've also seen mage players come to my table (also GMing at the big two cons) with huge numbers of services on bound spirits.  I suspect it's due in part to the metagaming that goes on in connection to the buying hits rule. (And what else is a mage going to spend nuyen on aside from binding/ritual materials, that doesn't cost karma?)

I still think there's room in the FAQ for different interpretations, so I imagine there are a spectrum of interpretations among the various Missions GMs.  As you say, lurker, a revised FAQ ought to address that.  It may come down to requiring that Binding Tests be rolled and signed off at the table, but that also puts more work on GMs, which can be problematic at cons.  (And I have a hard time penalizing a con player just because (s)he has stumbled into my situation of GMing back-to-back sessions.)  I think a better-balanced solution might require that spirits spend Edge to resist Binding if they're already bound to more than a particular number of services (say, 8-Force as an arbitrary starting point) or to oppose any Rebinding (p. 189, SR4A) attempt.  I think either of these Edge options works in line with RP for spirits, who likely grate against repeated long-term servitude, but I think the latter is a bit simpler.  I have no objection to a magician showing up with a couple of Force 3-6 spirits bound to a few services each, but I do think that a conjuror who has (Charisma) spirits bound, to dozens of services each (though I may be exaggerating slightly here), is being abusive (in-character) to spirits in general.
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
Missions Freelancer (SRM 04-10 Romero & Juliette, SRM 05-01 Chasin' the Wind, SRM 06-06 Falling Angels, PM-02 A Holy Piece of Wetwork)

DireRadiant

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« Reply #27 on: <06-15-12/0001:07> »
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