[Kinkerbell]

I can only speak for myself here, but I actually deeply enjoy the fluff-to-rules ratio with a few exceptions.

I mean, the lack of drones is *killing* me as a GM, because drones can make excellent  (and bodies for AIs, until we get CAST/TRACES back). And while I completely do not agree with the chosen echoes given in DT, I know that Tmancers are getting their own buff down the line, so I'll simply ignore that they exist until I get that and have my rootkit back. There's other bits noted, such as the lack of creation rules for vehicles, spells, weapons, etc, which were given in the 4E equivalent books, but we're not looking at a complete rules line. Vital stuff first, cool stuff people want but don't *need* second.

And that said, I think the fluff is really important. I'm a GM by trade, and Shadowrun is an insanely complex and narratively detailed world. With each edition, there's more and more to remember. The short stories may not help you with a specific rules application, or even with specific operations, but they help in evoking that feel of Shadowrun. A lot of us are veterans. We can shut our eyes and see SR in all its grim, chromed-out, spell-slinging glory. But not everyone has that. New players need the world evoked for them, and a description and a few tips are no replacement for a good piece of fiction. I got into Shadowrun through the fluff myself, back when SR 1/2/3 had a rich library of novels and shorts. SR5 is getting there, but the books are a little more niche, and the short fiction in core, chrome flesh, DT, and so on are good, general slice-of-life examples of the world as a whole, as well as ways of introducing new shadowtalkers to replace the old ones, and new enemies and places and capabilities in a way that we can all intuitively understand.

And then there's Wakshaani's point. Chrome flesh, for example, has *more* 'ware than its 4E equivalent did. Its hard to fault them for so much fluff when it still managed to hit all the high points. Were parts of it poorly implemented? Yeah. Redliner needs more explanation, modular cyberlimbs are a mess, customized drugs are a mess, and chemical gland RAW is literally useless. But that's editing, not a flaw of *construction.*

I enjoy the current way the books are built, and fully support the inclusion of fluff. Part of SR's draw is the detail of such a unique world, and the fluff is how that is furthered.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually, it is partially a flaw of construction. All that space taken up by fiction could have been used to ensure things were crystal clear.

Again, I am not saying "no fluff, ever", but rather that it's best to keep it restricted only to what's absolutely necessary to go with the rules present in a core rules supplement and put the heavily detailed stuff (and most especially specific story line information) to other sources that players are less likely to be digging through.

This has the benefit of providing sources for those GMs who wish to use every last iota of published "fluff" in their games while leaving all that extra out of the core 'stuff' for those who just want to take the general framework of the setting and run with it for their own paths. Sure it would be more expensive for the former type of GM, but that is more money in the pocket of CGL that can be used to pay the writers more and/or create even more resources.


Edit: I do feel that full stories really should be in anthology texts or, even better, expanded to full-on novels or novel trilogies. Fiction on that level really deserves to be placed on its own.

[Kinkerbell]

Well, alright, I will grant you that in a few places the problem is one of construction, e.g. modular limbs. That needed more space. The writer straight-up admitted this. But a lot of the smaller flaws (and some bigger ones coughcustomdrugscough) seem to be problems of phrasing rather than problems with space issues, and those would benefit from more careful editing or another bleeder group taking them through playtesting to see where the issues lie, but they don't need additional *space.* So I return to the flugg not actually costing a whole hell of a lot, when in a lot of cases- as Wakshaani pointed out- you're still getting as much content as before.

But seriously. Construction rules. Please god, construction rules. Spells, weapons, vehicles. Which, ironically, gets back to the fluff. You run across mages designing spells, armorers tinkering with their guns, riggers with bananas rigs in stories all the time, and zero support for creating those. Fluff, I like it, I love it, I want a lot of it, but (at the risk of undermining myself slightly), it does get weird when a story presents awesome mccoolthing and there's no way to actually do it in the rules. I'm really missing the cool little twenty pages supplements 4E had going at the end that filled in little holes like these.

EDIT: Re: Money. Yes, it would be more expensive and thus make more money to do it where the fluff was essentially purchased separately. But in some cases (I don't play deckers, for example), paying for a short story anthology and being able to avoid say, Data Trails, means that they're trading a $40.00 purchase for a $10.00 one. And if the fluff is helping to draw people into the game by having it present when they're otherwise scrawling the the crunch-heavy tables of numbers and statistics, every player that wins over because of the writing, as I and my entire group got into SR is hundreds of dollars of future purchases.

[All4BigGuns]

But seriously. Construction rules. Please god, construction rules. Spells, weapons, vehicles. Which, ironically, gets back to the fluff. You run across mages designing spells, armorers tinkering with their guns, riggers with bananas rigs in stories all the time, and zero support for creating those. Fluff, I like it, I love it, I want a lot of it, but (at the risk of undermining myself slightly), it does get weird when a story presents awesome mccoolthing and there's no way to actually do it in the rules.

Ten thousand times this. The custom firearm and vehicle creation rules were among the best things in Cannon Companion and Rigger 3, and their removal never should have happened especially with the excuse given for it. That the characters may not necessarily have the resources to do it in-game should not prevent the inclusion of such rules so that the players can create something cool for their characters to acquire and run it by the GM so compromise can be reached.

Of course the weapon creation should be expanded for the creation of melee weaponry as well (not to mention non-firearm ranged weapons) so that both melee and ranged combat types can benefit from them.


And then there is another type of creation rules entirely that really should be included. We have always been lacking detailed and comprehensive construction rules for "strongholds" (for lack of a better term). I don't believe that 'group lifestyles' are sufficient for creating a base of operations.

[Wakshaani]

[Wakshaani, this is a good baseline to go by, only every "rule page" needs to be significantly rules rather than a sidebar or single line here and there.

A need to put more focus on actual rules and mechanics is the only weakness you have, man.

I wish! Getting my brain broken as a lil' kid left me with 95% of my left hand (And forced me to use my 'off hand' for everything since), took away the ability to say a few letters (Took away everything, but I got *most* of it back), I can't swim, my knees are shoddy, and I'm stuck with a tenor voice instead of a way-cool Barry White rumbly bass.

And that's just for starters.

But, yeah, I read teh feedback (And read *way* more than I comment on), and take it to heart. We're trying to make stuff better each and every time, and hopefully the stuff I have in (Future Product) will show that off. Nuthin' but love, brother!

[Kinkerbell]

I wish! Getting my brain broken as a lil' kid left me with 95% of my left hand (And forced me to use my 'off hand' for everything since), took away the ability to say a few letters (Took away everything, but I got *most* of it back), I can't swim, my knees are shoddy, and I'm stuck with a tenor voice instead of a way-cool Barry White rumbly bass.

And that's just for starters.

"Answers to 'Lucky.'"

[All4BigGuns]

I wish! Getting my brain broken as a lil' kid left me with 95% of my left hand (And forced me to use my 'off hand' for everything since), took away the ability to say a few letters (Took away everything, but I got *most* of it back), I can't swim, my knees are shoddy, and I'm stuck with a tenor voice instead of a way-cool Barry White rumbly bass.

Not quite what I was talking about, but from the rest, I think you got the gist going by the parts not quoted.

[tytalan]

Thanks Patrick you gave me a lol moment with that.  as for your comment All4BigGuns I'll quite tell you to go to another game as soon as you quite demanding that the game must be written the way you want it no mater what anyone else thinks.  I'm sure that if people were having that much problems with the book content they would not be running out of stock. 

My wife who is also a long time gamer says it reminds her of the old WOD books were you would have a short story split in to chucks thru out a supplement. 

Also pages counts does not mean anything     

To quote Wakshaani " Cyber has almost double what Augmentation had for 4th edition.

Bio has almost double what Augmentation had in 4th edition.

I tried to include everything from both chapters that wasn't in the main book, minus a couple of things, then added about the same number of new things on top of that. You might want to do a parts count. (And, yes, there's also lots of fluff for each on top of that! I like writing, what can I say?)"

We have gotten more out of this book than you got in 4th edition. 

If you don't like the fluff skip it or don't buy the next book.

[All4BigGuns]

Okay, you won't stop putting words in people's mouth. So, why don't you stop saying that because the book is absolutely perfect for you that any complaint about it is completely invalid?

[tytalan]

I did not put any words in your month All4BigGuns I just read what you were saying and connected the dots.  If you were only commenting once or twice I would consider that you were expressing your thoughts but I see you blowing things up over and over again on many threads.  Your welcome to your thoughts but if you dismiss my thoughts than I'm going to rebuttal yours. That's how it works.  Sorry if you find this process not to your liking. 

   

[All4BigGuns]

The very first response you made to me was the first instance of dismissal of ideas in that you immediately came out with "go play this game instead".

[adzling]

tytalan you are conveniently ignoring the many other posters here (and elsewhere) who think there is way too much fluff in the crunch books.

So as you can see from the discussion here that a case can be made for either side you are 100% wrong in stating that all4bigGuns is in the minority.

Quite the opposite if anything judging from the statements of my gaming group and my totally unscientific, anecdotal review of the comments on the subject in various forums.

I will say that most people who say they like things as they are misquote the "less fluff" faction by inserting the straw man that "some fluff is needed".
This is not what the "less fluff" faction is saying, it's saying very simply, focus on creating quality rulesets and stop dumping more shovel-ready fan-fic into the crunch books.
It helps little and only serves to take aways the focus from a quality ruleset which Catalyst has demonstrated again and again they have a hard time pulling off, ostensibly due to horrific editing.

[Kinkerbell]

Guys. Personal attacks are getting us nowhere.

As Adzlin pointed out, a case can be made for either side. I think he's oversimplifying the pro-fluff side slightly, but I've already done as complete a job as I can discuss my point of view. All I'll say now is that part of it is preference, part of it is immersion factor, and part of it may be a business model thing.

Also, while the editing is detestable in some cases, there is no guarantee that stripping out fluff for rules would make that better.

[adzling]

You're absolutely right Kinkerbell, it's a hope borne of frustration at the poor quality of the rules editing process that results in unclearly worded, contradictory descriptions again and again.
It's like no one is paying attention to the editing of the rules and the hope is if they would just reduce the time spent on non-essential fluff (that lives happily in shadows-in-focus fluff type books and novels) they could actually spend more time and $$ on getting the rules right.
And heck mebbe issuing some errata within a couple of years of publishing a book riddled with inexcusably obvious errors.

but this may just be wishful thinking.

still a guy's gotta have something to hope for, right?

Also, while the editing is detestable in some cases, there is no guarantee that stripping out fluff for rules would make that better.

[tytalan]

I agree with you about the editing Kinkerbell and adzling my problem with Guns is this demand he's made more than once that we most have a 25 / 75 or less fluff vs. rules.  I've play a lot of games in my day and I've seen bad fluff, no fluff, and good fluff and IHO this books and most of the others are closer to good fluff levels than not.  The games I've played that had little or no fluff tend to louse player interest faster than the ones with a good amount of Fluff.  If you want a true measure of how the people are responding to the Fluff level in the books look at the sales that the final test.