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[SR5] House Rules

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Malevolence

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« Reply #300 on: <11-04-14/1832:51> »

Based on the concept from FATE and the Cypher system (and to a lesser degree D&D 4th) where you can perform some quick self healing a limited number of times, I have created some house rules to do so in Shadowrun. These are meant to exemplify a mixture of "I just need a second to catch my breath" and "that damage wasn't really as bad as I originally thought" to gain a small number of damage boxes back. These are, mechanically, new uses for Edge that allow you to bypass the time requirement for gaining the benefit of Natural Healing.


Shrug it Off
As a Complex Action, you may spend a point of Edge to immediately make a Natural Recovery test to heal stun damage as if the character had rested for 1 hour (Body + Willpower). This can be done as often as the character desires as long as the following two conditions are met:
1. The character must have a point of Edge available to spend
2. At least 1 hour has to have passed since the last Natural Recovery Test (whether granted from an hour of rest, Shrug it Off, Only a Flesh Wound, or any other means)


Only a Flesh Wound
Similar to Shrug it Off, but more potent. The Character may BURN one edge point and use a Complex Action to immediately make a Natural Recovery test to heal physical damage as if he had rested for 1 day (Body x 2). So long as the character has at least one point of Edge to burn, he can do this as often as he likes.


I am seeking input on how unbalancing the community at large feels it might be, how the verbiage might be changed to better describe the effect (and avoid misinterpretation or undesirable edge cases), and input for fine tuning. For example, right now I have it as allowing a heal check roll returning a random value which could be quite high for high BOD/WIL characters, so it might be better to use a different test or a straight value. Or maybe Only a Flesh Wound is weak for burning a point of edge and it should allow you to add your edge pool to the roll as well?


What are your thoughts?
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« Reply #301 on: <11-04-14/1857:16> »
Shrug it Off is going to be easily abusable (as are all Edge actions) by a High Edge character. Most commonly Trolls and Humans. Although not too abusable. Medkit/First Aid + Heal Spell + Shrug it Off most likely heals you to full, or at the very least removes many boxes of damage from your condition monitors.

Only a Flesh Wound us going to be highly powerful on high Body characters who have only 1 Edge. Similar to the conversation (can't find it atm) of abusing Not Dead Yet, a 1 Edge character can Burn and Edge, then use 5 Karma to regain it back. Obviously the GM can stop that, and they do lose out on Karma, but for when you need your mega tank who has Symbiotes and Body 7+ back in the game, it will be good. I would be tempted to let it add the Edge pool as well, but that won't make much of a difference on those who are in a position to abuse it.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #302 on: <11-04-14/2023:26> »
Honestly, it has echoes of video-game 4e AD&D - where it's virrtually impossible to really put the PCs into a risk-it-all do-or-die situation where they're down to the bloody edge.  It'd work great for a very cinematic campaign, sure, and if that's your goal, this'll work great.  But understand that with this, the PCs become considerably more unkillable, and it makes it tough to really endanger them without killing them outright, which is a complaint I heard from many more than a few people about 4e AD&D,

SR5 rules for healing already allow for incredibly fast healing - not 'action movie' cinematic, but at least 'action noir' cinematic, where the main character has to lay low for a day or two, and is pretty much at full health after that.  This turns it up to 14, and makes it 'action movie' cinematic.  Again, though, if that's what you're going for, this would do it.
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Malevolence

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« Reply #303 on: <11-04-14/2107:44> »
As with most things, this would also be usable by NPCs. But yes, it is mostly targeted towards more cinematic games (hence the names), though considering the other uses of edge, it doesn't have to be limited to them.


The problem I saw that made this interesting its that despite all of the rapid healing and nearly instant healing methods, characters were still mostly annoyed with lingering wound modifiers. They weren't endangering them - having 3 boxes on each track is nowhere near life threatening, it was simply inhibiting dice pools. Wound modifiers are a great mechanic, don't get me wrong, but in the excitement of a prolonged run where you don't have the luxury of sitting still for an hour (i.e. - the GM is Doing It Right), getting an unlucky ding early on means dealing with a one or two dice inconvenience for the rest of the run. If it is a minor inconvenience it might not be worth spending/buring a point of Edge to do something about, but if it is becoming annoying (and the player fun level is possibly suffering as a result), this provides the option to spend a relatively valuable and restricted resource to gain a dice or two back to your pools.


This will probably mostly benefit magic users as it gives them a limited but quick way to heal drain damage that would otherwise cripple them for hours/days. Not that mages need much help, but due to the opportunity cost of putting points into Magic, they tend to have lower Edge overall and so this becomes relatively more expensive for them.


But yeah, at the other extreme, it can give you one more option to avoid death if you have full or nearly full damage tracks. In that case, you are using Only a Flesh Wound and your other Edge based option is Not Dead Yet, which is probably the better value as it ensures your survival rather than simply improving your odds.


Maybe I'm trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. That's why this is up here. Both pieces of feedback have been helpful. Thank you. But in light of them I thought it might help to explain more what I was hoping to achieve with them.


Perhaps restricting them to once per session or in-game day would better address the potential exploitability/unkillability issues that were brought up?
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« Reply #304 on: <11-04-14/2123:01> »
Limiting Shrug it Off to once per in-game day would balance it perfectly IMO.

Unfortunately, I don't see a way to prevent the low-Edge spam of Only a Flesh Wound (same with Not Dead Yet, but that's another thing), since it basically makes tanks, well, really tanky. Medkit + Heal spell is already huge, but that just helps even more. I think it would be better perhaps if it was just Body + Edge pool; that would give higher Edge people a better pool to heal with, while low Edge people have a much lower heal. Then again, I'm not sure if it's worth Burning Edge at that point.

ZeConster

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« Reply #305 on: <11-04-14/2135:33> »
Honestly, it has echoes of video-game 4e AD&D - where it's virrtually impossible to really put the PCs into a risk-it-all do-or-die situation where they're down to the bloody edge.
We had a few too many fights inbetween rests at one point in our D&D campaign, and the healer ran out of healing surges, which meant potions only healed him 1 HP - he literally had to hide under a table during a boss fight against a demon.

Lucean

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« Reply #306 on: <11-05-14/0219:16> »
It all strongly depends on the degree of optimization of the party and the opposition. I saw three Rangers at our tables, the only one with Twin Strike started with 14 STR and used Scimitars, and one of the others uses Shield of Blades ...
I managed to force some Death Saving Throws and we recently had some characters get to zero surges or very close to it in another campaign, but other than that it was more cinematic, yes.

How strong or maybe overpowered the suggestes recovery options are depends IMHO on the amount of action the group faces and how many possibly critical dice rolls have to be made. If you regularly have to expect to need 2 or 3 Edge per run and are already sitting at 4, you have another strong option to reduce wound penalties. I wouldn't think such an option to provide any real benefit to the play experience.

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #307 on: <11-05-14/0722:38> »
We had a few too many fights inbetween rests at one point in our D&D campaign, and the healer ran out of healing surges, which meant potions only healed him 1 HP - he literally had to hide under a table during a boss fight against a demon.
A demon capable of throwing fireballs, which meant I had to hide at a large distance and occasionally shout healing messages at the others. And I already had gone down once that fight so I was at 1 HP.

Back on topic: I kinda prefer the current lethality. There's several ways to temporarily recover Stun damage, and First Aid deserves to be promoted. And the inconvenience is nice, since risk is supposed to be risk. ZeConster having to hide at a large distance and sending his Spirit in solo, was due to a really good anti-Summoning roll from me and poor Drain resist from him. Being able to just shrug that off takes the fun out.
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« Reply #308 on: <11-11-14/2152:20> »
Recently, I participated in a game where I had a number of stun boxes from a Flashbang. Ironically, I had a headache while playing it. I then thought about how a Flashbang would probably give my character a headache, and I know that eventually, you get drained from continuous pain. I then thought of this idea for a houserule. Basically, if you have any damage on your condition monitors, you have a chance to "bleed out" per se. This makes Shadowrun slightly more lethal, and I'm curious as to what everyone thinks about it. The Stun damage rule focuses on your force of will, as well as your body's ability to resist pain. The Physical damage rule focuses on just how strong your body is and how fast it can heal, when you are bleeding out, it doesn't matter about your willpower.

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Stun Damage

If you sit around with Stun Damage on your Condition monitor for a certain amount of time based on the following table, you have a chance to accumulate more stun damage through sheer fatigue of headaches, bruises, etc.

Make a Body + Willpower test with a threshold equal to your wound penalty. Any effects that boost, or lower, these attributes factor into the test. If you fail to meet the threshold, then you take Stun damage equal to the Threshold minus your hits. A glitch forces you to take at least 1 Stun box (cumulative with additional if you fail the test). A critical glitch, along with the additional Stun Box from a glitch and the boxes you take from missing the threshold, means that you must immediately make another test. If you succeed on the test, you no longer have to make any more tests unless you gain more Stun damage through external means.

So, for example, a Human with 6 Stun Damage has sat around for 1 hour. He must make a test. He rolls Body 3 + Willpower 3. His threshold to meet is 2. He rolls 2 hits on 6 dice. He takes no boxes of damage. He does not have to make another test, unless he gains more Stun damage through external means.

A Troll has 10 boxes of Stun Damage, and has sat around for 30 minutes. He rolls Body 7 + Willpower 5. His threshold is 3. He rolls 2 hits. He takes one more Box of Stun damage, putting him at 11 boxes of Stun. He does not need to make another test for 30 minutes.

Time Interval between Tests:

1 to 3 Stun Damage - 2 hours
4 to 6 Stun Damage - 1 hour
7+ Stun Damage - 30 minutes

Damage Compensators treat your Stun damage for the threshold and time intervals as # of Stun Boxes minus the rating of your Damage Compensators. Pain Editor completely negates this accumulation of damage, as you feel no fatigue.

This damage can never overflow into your Physical Monitor or Overflow Monitor, although it can cause you to fall unconscious. Symbiotes have no effect on this test.

The Allergy Quality applies a dice pool penalty to the resistance test according to it's severity. -2 for Mild, -4 for Moderate or Severe, and -6 for Extreme. This only activates if the allergen is present.

Any painkillers that are taken may halt the accumulation of Stun Damage in this manner. The GM can decide how long these painkillers last.

Taking a short rest (as per the rules to recover Stun Damage), even with the Insomnia Quality or if you fail to get any hits on your healing tests, stops this accumulation of Stun Damage. Any time spent while resting (as per the rules to recover Stun Damage) pause the time until the next test (similar to registering Sprites and their OS score), however, if you are interrupted, the timer resumes.

Physical Damage

If you sit around with Physical Damage on your Condition Monitor for a certain amount of time based on the following table, you have a chance to accumulate more Physical damage due to your body being severely damaged.

Make a Body x 2 test with a threshold equal to your wound penalty. Any effects that boost these attributes factor into the test, and wound penalties are the only ones that apply. If you fail to meet the threshold, then you take Physical damage equal to the Threshold minus your hits. A glitch forces you to take a box of Physical Damage (cumulative with any boxes that you may accumulate if you fail the test). A critical glitch, along with the additional Physical Box from a glitch and the boxes you take from missing the threshold, means that you must immediately make another test. If you succeed on the test, you no longer have to make any more tests unless you gain more Physical damage through external means.

For example, a Human with 4 Physical Damage has gone for 90 minutes without the boxes being removed. He rolls Body 3 x 2. His threshold to meet is 1. He rolls 0 hits on his 6 dice. He takes one box of Physical Damage. He does not need to make another test for 45 minutes.

A Dwarf has 8 boxes of Physical Damage, and has gone for 15 minutes without the boxes being removed. He rolls Body 7 x 2. His threshold to meet is 2. He rolls 2 hits, but also glitches. He takes one box of Physical Damage. He does not need to make another test unless he gains more Physical damage through external means.

Time Interval between Tests:

1 to 3 Physical Damage - 90 minutes
4 to 6 Physical Damage - 45 minutes
7+ Physical Damage - 15 minutes

Damage Compensators, Pain Editor, and Symbiotes have no effect on this test. Platelet Factories may trigger, as usual.

The Allergy Quality applies a dice pool penalty to the resistance test according to it's severity. -2 for Mild, -4 for Moderate or Severe, and -6 for Extreme. This only activates if the allergen is present.

The Weak Immune System Quality applies a -2 penalty to the test, to represent the body's weakened ability to handle infection and general health.

This damage can go into Overflow, and eventually kill you.

A Medicine + Logic [Mental] test with a Time Interval equal to the number of Physical Boxes divided by 3 (rounded up) in minutes may be performed to stop this accumulation of damage. This is to represent applying pressure, and torniquets, etc. that can be used to allow a body to begin to heal itself.

Taking a long rest (as per the rules to recover Physical Damage), even if you fail to get any hits on your test, stops the accumulation of Physical damage. Any time spent while resting (as per the rules to recover Physical Damage) pause the time until the next test (similar to registering Sprites and their OS score), however, if you are interrupted, the timer resumes.

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So, what do you guys think? This is, admittedly, a very rough first draft, and it may be confusing in some places. Feel free to point out any places that are lacking in clarity. I also realize that this makes Shadowrun much deadlier, but it is a house rule for a reason. I also think it fits in with "real-life" stuff, especially the stun damage part. I cannot tell you how many times I've been unable to function at anything due to a headache (the equivalent of stun damage) until the pain got so pervasive I had to sleep it off.
« Last Edit: <11-15-14/0016:06> by 8-bit »

Namikaze

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« Reply #309 on: <11-12-14/0149:19> »
I like the idea of it, but then I love anything that makes the game harder.  This would integrate nicely with the advanced medical rules from Bullets & Bandages too.
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #310 on: <11-12-14/0211:06> »
It has advantages, and I like the rule, but this is an inevitable slide into death.  You take one box of damage, and if you keep going, even if you don't take any more damage from other stuff, eventually you're going to be dead, because you don't account for the body's natural ability to compensate, shut down blood vessels, coagulate, etc.  Resting for hours to recover one box of damage isn't necessary; the body does this on its own.  Perhaps once you match the threshold on the test, you can stop needing to track this - but up the threshold by one to compensate.
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« Reply #311 on: <11-12-14/0213:59> »
It has advantages, and I like the rule, but this is an inevitable slide into death.  You take one box of damage, and if you keep going, even if you don't take any more damage from other stuff, eventually you're going to be dead, because you don't account for the body's natural ability to compensate, shut down blood vessels, coagulate, etc.  Resting for hours to recover one box of damage isn't necessary; the body does this on its own.  Perhaps once you match the threshold on the test, you can stop needing to track this - but up the threshold by one to compensate.

I like that idea, as you're right. Eventually, if you don't rest, it's going to kill you. The Physical part was a little overkill (but I figured it should be, because, you know, bleeding to death is kind of serious). Passing the threshold would be a good way to just end the test then and there.

Perhaps up the threshold to Boxes/2 (round up)? Seems sort of ridiculous once you get to 7 boxes though, as you are hitting 4+ threshold, which can get dicey even at 14 dice. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, what do you mean by upping the threshold by one?

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #312 on: <11-12-14/0543:56> »
Instead of (Boxes/3, round up) - which is essentially the wound penalty of whatever row of damage they're on - make it (Boxes/3) + 1.  So for 1-3 boxes, they have a threshold of 2; for 4-6, a threshold of 3; etc.

I do have something of an issue of wound penalties applying; that's kind of double-dipping, since the wound penalty (at least the one that you're working towards) is, after all, the threshold.  When it comes to healing, as compared to making a skill roll to HELP healing, wound penalties never apply.  Otherwise you'd wind up overfrequently with a TPK, as one hit basically means that you're screwed no matter what .
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Lucean

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« Reply #313 on: <11-12-14/0621:22> »
So The Wyrm Ouroboros, you want people to die over night just because of having some minor injury?
So with BOD 2 you'd eventually die with just one box on your physical monitor? If you go to sleep for 6 hours you might have gone to 4 boxes of damage within 4.5 hours and then spiral down to death even faster.

I don't like it, because it's especially harmful to humans and elves while being more or less neglectable by the others.

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« Reply #314 on: <11-12-14/1056:13> »
Hmm, back to the drawing board with that one, I'll see if I can get a revised version up soon-ish.