[taukarrie]

By either someone attempting an interesting character concept or people just trying to find loopholes in the system mages with some amount of cyberware sometimes happen. Id like to understand the game of balancing magic rating and essence in 6E.

"(specifically, anytime your Essence goes below any whole integer, you lose a corresponding point of Magic or Resonance)"
- 6E CRB pg 38

To me this means that you just lose a point off of your current magic rating rather than your max magic rating is reduced by 1 per point of essence loss. If thats the case I'd imagine you can choose priority A magic for a full mage with a 4 magic rating, take 2 essence worth of cyberware, and then use starting karma and metahuman adjustment points to get magic rating back up to 4, or even up to 6. Is that right?

Magic rating is, for all intents and purposes, an attribute? So a player can raise the magic rating with 5 x (new rating) karma point during play?

Initiation. I dont see any prerequisite for a character's magic rating before attempting initiation. Given the time, resources and available karma can you initiate regardless of your current magic rating? 

[easl]

To me this means that you just lose a point off of your current magic rating rather than your max magic rating is reduced by 1 per point of essence loss. If thats the case I'd imagine you can choose priority A magic for a full mage with a 4 magic rating, take 2 essence worth of cyberware, and then use starting karma and metahuman adjustment points to get magic rating back up to 4, or even up to 6. Is that right?

If you do the character creation steps in order, you would first assign your attribute points and adjustment points. That's the step where you raise your mages' Magic from 4 to 6.  Then during the Magic/Resonance step, you'd give her 8 spells (2 spell per original magic point, before adjustment points are added). Then during the Buy Gear phase, you'd buy gear, reduce her Essence, and reduce her Magic at the same time.  This is somewhat consistent with past editions, where your character's Essence rating functioned as a cap on their Magic/Resonance rating.

Now, some qualities allow you to start with a higher trait or skill - those only make sense if you can reallocate your attribute (or skill) points after you buy the quality. So obviously there are some exceptions to doing the character generation steps strictly in order. However, personally I would not allow a player to reallocate adjustment points to bring Magic back up to 6 after she had knocked her character's Magic down 2 points due to Essence loss in the 'buy gear' phase.

I'm not sure if, after character generation, Essence functions as a hard cap on your Magic score (i.e. not allowing you to raise it with karma as you earn it during play, assuming you are initiated).   I don't think that's addressed in this edition, though I could be wrong.

[CigarSmoker]

[...] magic for a full mage with a 4 magic rating, take 2 essence worth of cyberware, and then use starting karma and metahuman adjustment points to get magic rating [...] up to 6. Is that right?

6th CRB p.129 Magic, Technology, and Resistance
[...]
One primary effect is that Awakened characters avoid cyberware, bioware, and other implants. These things reduce their Essence, which in turn limits some of their mana-channeling abilities. Which is something few Awakened people want.[...]

thats the only quote in the book which refers to maximum Magic being reduced by Essense loss. And its far from being straighforward ^^

Magic rating is, for all intents and purposes, an attribute? So a player can raise the magic rating with 5 x (new rating) karma point during play?

Yes. And there is a table in CRB how long raising Attributes takes. But its only a suggested time frame for the GM.

Initiation. I dont see any prerequisite for a character's magic rating before attempting initiation. Given the time, resources and available karma can you initiate regardless of your current magic rating?

The prerequisite is having a Magic Attribute of at least 1. Because:

6th CRB p. 167
[...]Your Initiate Grade can never exceed your Magic rating.[...]


And on a side note: most Cyber- and Bioware will make a Full Mage weaker not stronger. Health Spells greatly suffer from lost Essence (5-Target Essence as Dicepool modifier, 6 Essence means 1 free hit; see health spell description)

[taukarrie]

To me this means that you just lose a point off of your current magic rating rather than your max magic rating is reduced by 1 per point of essence loss. If thats the case I'd imagine you can choose priority A magic for a full mage with a 4 magic rating, take 2 essence worth of cyberware, and then use starting karma and metahuman adjustment points to get magic rating back up to 4, or even up to 6. Is that right?

If you do the character creation steps in order, you would first assign your attribute points and adjustment points. That's the step where you raise your Mages' magic from 4 to 6.  Then during the Magic/Resonance step, you'd give her 8 spells (2 spell per original magic point, before adjustment points are added). Then during the Buy Gear phase, you'd buy gear, reduce her essence, and reduce her magic at the same time.  This is somewhat consistent with past editions, where your character's Essence rating functioned as a cap on their Magic/Resonance rating.

Now, some qualities allow you to start with a higher trait or skill - those only make sense if you can reallocate your attribute points after you buy the quality. So obviously there are some exceptions to doing the character generation steps strictly in order. However, personally I would not allow a player to reallocate adjustment points to bring Magic back up to 6 after she had knocked her character's magic down 2 points due to essence loss in the 'buy gear' phase.

I'm not sure if, after character generation, essence functions as a hard cap on your magic score (i.e. not allowing you to raise it with karma as you earn it during play).   I don't think that's addressed in this edition, though I could be wrong.

Well id still get the same result if i did things in my example in the order youve laid out. The difference would be that I would first choose priorities, (magic A for the 4 points), and then use karma/metahuman points to bring that 4 to a 6, and then buy the cyberware that brings it back down to 4. The question here is one about starting spells. If following chargen strictly in order, page by page you take starting spells RIGHT before buying gear. Its literally on the same page. I would think if you lost essence somehow during play you wouldnt lose spells, but for chargen you shouldnt be able to take more starting spells than your finished starting magic rating would allow.

As far as order of steps go, I feel like the order steps appear on the pages is really not called out as necessarily strictly followed. Nothing is numbered, and no text expressly prohibits one step before another. Most likely, the chargen section was just written in its present format to be as intuitive as possible in teaching a new player how to make a character. In most cases you just realize that some things cant be done before others and are naturally forced into a general order of steps. Considering this, I would rule that if you know you are going to be a mage starting with less than 6 essence just hold off getting spells until you know where youre essence ends up.

[ZeroSum]

And on a side note: most Cyber- and Bioware will make a Full Mage weaker not stronger. Health Spells greatly suffer from lost Essence (5-Target Essence as Dicepool modifier, 6 Essence means 1 free hit; see health spell description)

I agree in theory; most 'ware can be if not directly detrimental, then at least ineffective. Certain 'ware, however, can be extremely useful; take a Pain Editor, for example, you can't knock yourself unconscious any more. Are you a hermetic mage and want to resist drain better? Get that Cerebral Booster, chummer. There are several examples where magic and tech directly compliments each other quite nicely.

[easl]

The question here is one about starting spells. If following chargen strictly in order, page by page you take starting spells RIGHT before buying gear. Its literally on the same page. I would think if you lost essence somehow during play you wouldnt lose spells, but for chargen you shouldnt be able to take more starting spells than your finished starting magic rating would allow.

I'd let them keep all their spells. When you were a junior wizard, you learned 8 spells. Then you went into surgery and got a cybernetic arm. Do you still know 8 spells? Yes, you do.

As far as order of steps go, I feel like the order steps appear on the pages is really not called out as necessarily strictly followed.

Yeah, it's much easier to do things iteratively/in one fell swoop rather than step-wise. I have no problem with that if it makes it easier for a player to put their character together...as long as the iterative fine-tuning doesn't break any rules. As a GM, I would see reallocating adjustment points to bring your Magic back up to 6 after taking 2 essence worth of 'ware as breaking the rules. I would not see taking Magic 4 worth of spells and then reducing magic to 2 after taking 'ware as breaking the rules. But, YMMV.

[Michael Chandra]

The spells are based on your magic priority, basically it's (1 Magic and 2 spell formulae learned / 2+4 / 3+6 / 4+8), so that's not related to your final magic at all.

On the other hand, spending things should be in order (though you can make an expense that only in a later step becomes legal due to a quality), exactly to prevent players trying to use loopholes.

[CigarSmoker]

And on a side note: most Cyber- and Bioware will make a Full Mage weaker not stronger. Health Spells greatly suffer from lost Essence (5-Target Essence as Dicepool modifier, 6 Essence means 1 free hit; see health spell description)

I agree in theory; most 'ware can be if not directly detrimental, then at least ineffective. Certain 'ware, however, can be extremely useful; take a Pain Editor, for example, you can't knock yourself unconscious any more. Are you a hermetic mage and want to resist drain better? Get that Cerebral Booster, chummer. There are several examples where magic and tech directly compliments each other quite nicely.

The Hermetic Mage could get a Sustain Focus with Force 6 and just cast Increase Attribute Logic on himself for +4 instead +3. Costs 12 Karma 24.000 Nuyen.

Pain Editor, Sleep Regulator, Platelet Factories are interesting but i wouldnt sacrifice precious Essence for them
-"Sleep Regulator" can either be super or its just fluff
- Pain Editor is super good yeah ^^
- Platelet Factories good when the drain exceeds your Magic Attribute, but with more Essence that would have been higher to begin with

But yeah those 3 are kind of good.