[PatrolDeer]

Arkas, I get your reasoning.

It should be possible (it pretty much is possible in reality) to engage a single target with a single shot, move your sights to a secondary target and engage the secondary target with a single shot.
This translated to the Action phase would in my understanding be also, use Major+Minor and divide your dice pool by two. Perfectly possible in reality, some dudes can do this easy under 3 seconds in range conditions.
There is also a mechanical limit to that. The more targets a shooter wants to engage, the less attention (dice pool) the shooter will have for each shot.

But that gets very muddy when using the same reasoning for other fire modes as well as rising number of targets.

SA (I just call it double tap) means you squeeze the trigger twice. How many additional targets beyond the first can shooter engage in a single combat round ?
The same mechanical limit would apply to SA mode, split dice pool by the number of available targets, yet the shooter takes twice the time to shoot compared to SS. (Two trigger pulls compared to one)

So the amount of targets a shooter can engage in a single round should be reduced by the amount of bullets flying at each target.

With SS there are theoretically 4 targets let's say, ( I am taking distance, cover, vision, ... out of equation) so with SA there should be 2 targets you can engage with multiple attacks. SA takes double the amount of time compared to SS (two trigger pulls)

With Burst, you should be able to engage only a single target, or, as we can see in the rules, engage at maximum 2 targets.
With Full auto, spray and pray as long as it is within 10 targets, each threatened by a single bullet and a miserable chance to hit.

[Xenon]

Rule wise this are the different scenarios that are valid if you are wielding a single firearm:

• SS only fire one single bullet (as a major action) and can therefor only hit one single target (as a major action).
• SA fire two individual bullets (as a major action). Rule wise you can only double tap one single target (as a major action).
• BF seem to automatically fire 2 bullets each time you pull the trigger and it fire 2 bullets plus 2 bullets for a total of 4 bullets (as a major action). Rule wise you can either pull the trigger twice against the same target (Narrow Burst by taking a major action) or aim at one target, pull the trigger once and then aim at a second target to pull the trigger a second time (Wide Burst by taking  a minor and a major action).
• FA seem to automatically fire 10 bullets (as a Major action). Rule wise you can attack between one and 10 times (spread out against one or multiple targets and hitting each target once or multiple times). This is the only mode you can use if you wish to hit the same target multiple times (without dual wielding). This is also the only mode you can use if you wish to hit more than two individual targets. Or any combination of the two. As a single major action (without also taking a minor action).

Nothing beyond that is explicitly covered by the rules, but I think it also make sense to [house] rule the following:

• That you with SA mode also have the option to aim at one target, tap the trigger once, then aim at a second target and tap the trigger a second time for two individual SS attacks by taking a minor and a major action.
• That you with SA mode also have the option to just tap the trigger once against a single target, basically taking a SS attack even though you are using a semi automatic weapon, by taking a single major action.
• That you with BF mode also have the option to just tap the trigger once against a single target, basically taking a single SA attack even though you are using a BF weapon as a major action (but you should not be allowed to take a SS attack when you are using a weapon in BF mode since it will automatically fire two bullets each time you pull the trigger)
• That you with FA mode are explicitly not allowed to take the Anticipation Edge Action (because attacking ten times without splitting the pool is BS and also because you need to spend a Multiple Attacks minor action together with your Major Action attack and four Edge in order to trigger Anticipation)

[hulka]

I agree with you Xenon with one exeption.
CRB p.109
"BF: You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack. You can shoot a narrow burst, which decreases the Attack Rating by 4 and increases damage by 2, or make a wide burst and split your dice pool between two targets and count each as a SA-mode shot."

How i understand this, is:
You pull trigger once and shoot 4 bullets. You can do this to one target and apply -4AR, +2Dmg.

Or, You pull trigger once and, when targets are close to each other (p.42), you can transfer shooting from one to second. Then you apply -4AR and +1Dmg, like dmg from two bullets.

I know it doesn't comply with the rules "count as a SA", but when pull trigger once and shoot 4 bullets recoil is the same.

This is also why they do not have to apply 1 Minor action for Multiple attack.

[CigarSmoker]

This is also why they do not have to apply 1 Minor action for Multiple attack.

"Full Auto" does not need 1 Minor Action for attacking multiple target. "Wide burst" has nothing like that in its description. Its all on p.109.

[hulka]

Correct. I agree. But...

1. You pull trrigger once. One action. 4 bullets out.
2. Rules say, You can shoot a narrow burst or make a wide burst. Not two SA or two short BF. Only one burst narrow or wide. You divide Dicepool because you're trying to keep focus on one and shift to second.

This is my opinion, maybe it doesn't follow the rules.

Edited: Maybe, part of the mind must focus on shifting, so Minor action for Multiple Attack is necessary. But in FA its not necessary. What is diferend? One pul 4 bullets or one pull 10 bullets.

[taukarrie]

Correct. I agree. But...

1. You pull trrigger once. One action. 4 bullets out.
2. Rules say, You can shoot a narrow burst or make a wide burst. Not two SA or two short BF. Only one burst narrow or wide. You divide Dicepool because you're trying to keep focus on one and shift to second.

This is my opinion, maybe it doesn't follow the rules.

Edited: Maybe, part of the mind must focus on shifting, so Minor action for Multiple Attack is necessary. But in FA its not necessary.

I still feel like that wide burst manuever was meant to be a a way to hit two adjacent targets without spending a minor action. BF or FA, youre still firing inside a 3-second window. If Im surrounded by 10 guys and i can shoot all 10 of them with 10 bullets on FA from a RPK HMG heavy machine gun with a single major action I should be able to shoot two of those guys adjacent to each other with 4 bullets on BF from a Black Scorpion with the same action.

[hulka]

That's my opinion too. So Minor action is not necessary.
In narrow burst you're trying to keep scattering on one target in wide burst, you are trying to transfer bullets to the second target. But its the same action. One pull trigger.

[taukarrie]

That's my opinion too. So Minor action is not necessary.
In narrow burst you're trying to keep scattering on one target in wide burst, you are trying to transfer bullets to the second target. But its the same action. One pull trigger.

overall this topic is more hotly debated than i expected. Im probably going to house it as follows in my games:

       SS: 1 round, 1 target, 1 major action
       SA: 2 rounds, 1 target or 2 targets (as a pair of SS attacks), 1 major
              action, 1 minor action
       BF (narrow): 4 rounds, 1 target, 1 major action
       BF (wide): 4 rounds, 2 targets (as a pair of SA attacks), 1 major action
       FA: 10 rounds, 1-10 target(s), 1 major action

[hulka]

LOL.
I also made a table and let me add the following.
(pt=pull trigger)(M=Major)(m=Minor)(Dp=Dicepool)
SS= 1pt - 1 bullet - 1 target.   (1M)         AR like weapon , Dmg like weapon  (Bam)
SA= 2pt - 2 bullets - 1 target   (1M)         AR-2, Dmg+1                                (Beng, Beng)
        1pt - 1 bullet - 1 target    (1M)         AR like weapon , Dmg like weapon    (Beng)
       2pt - 2 bullets - 2 targets   (1m,1M)   AR -2, Dmg like weapon, Dp/2   (Beng, Beng)
BF= 1pt - 4 bullets - 1 target (narrow) (1M) AR-4, Dmg+2                     (Trrrrrr)
       1pt - 4 bullets - 2 targets (wide) (1M)   AR-4, Dmg+1 Dp/2               (Trrrrrr)
FA= 1pt - to 10 bullets - x targets     (1M)     AR-6, Dmg like weapon, Dp/x targets  (Ratatatatatatatatatata)

Sorry that, you can shift it to House rule section.

[skalchemist]

I feel like the thing that is missing in this is the distinction between firing mode and tactic used in firing.

* Firing Mode: this is an aspect of the weapon itself.  You pull the trigger, it fires 1/2/4/lots of rounds.  The two round and four round modes are mechanically/electronically limited (through a cam shaft or similar mechanism) that fires exactly that number of rounds.  It is controlled by a literal switch on the weapon (although this can be activated electronically via Smartlink). 
* Tactic: are you concentrating on a single target or are you spreading your fire among multiple targets.
* Number of times you pull the trigger.

Also, I think that logically the decrease in attack rating is tied to the number of bullets spitting out of the end of the weapon (as the recoil makes it increasingly hard to aim), and the increase in damage is related to the probability that the target will be hit by more than one bullet.

Also, three seconds is a fairly long time in terms of gaining control of the weapon and re-aiming between trigger pulls.  The splitting of the dice pool is really a sufficient penalty.

Therefore, I think I would house rule this whole business in the following fashion, as essentially a two dimensional matrix of firing mode and tactic.  This is pretty big alteration, YMMV obviously:

Firing Modes:
SS: you fire one round per trigger pull, no change to Attack Rating
SA: you fire two rounds per trigger pull, -2 to Attack Rating
BF: you fire four rounds per trigger pull, - 4 to Attack Rating (with exception for Wide Burst)
FA: you fire as long as the trigger is depressed, -6 to Attack Rating. 

Tactical Actions:
Careful Fire: 1 major action.  only possible in SS/SA/BF.  You target one enemy.  Get an increase to damage rating = rounds fired/2 rounded up (+0 for SS, +1 for SA, +2 for BF).
Rapid Fire:  1 Major action and 1 minor action.  only possible in SS/SA/BF.  You fire twice in quick succession.  Split your dice pool evenly into two packets.  Assign these packets to either two targets that are close to each other, or a single target.  Damage rating increases as with Careful Fire (+0 for SS, +1 for SA, +2 for BF). 
Wide Burst: 1 Major action.  only possible in BF.  You target two enemies that are fairly close to each other with a single trigger pull.  This does NOT require a minor action.  Attack Rating -2 (instead of -4), Damage Rating +1 against each target.  You must split your dice pool evenly between the two targets.
Spray: 1 Major action. only possible in FA.  You fill an area with a volume of fire, firing at least 5 and no more than 10 rounds.  Divide your dice pool evenly in a number of packets equal to the number of rounds fired.  Assign a packet to any target in the area, including more than one packet on the same target.  No damage rating change.  This does NOT require a minor action.

This is just framework that seems like a logical "refactoring" of the current rules, achieving the roughly the same result but in a logical fashion I can understand.  Again YMMV.  And like Hulka, I probably should be posting this to the House Rule thread instead of here.

[hulka]

Back to topic.
When used two weapons, you have to spend 1 minor action for Multiple attack and divide a Dicepool for each of weapon.
1: If you have Dicepool 12, 3 targets and one SMG capable FA in each hand.
Spend 1minor, 1 major action. Split Dicepool for each hand with weapon. Without Ambidexterity quality you cannt use Edge.
FA mode, First weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 but good dmg.
Second weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 good dmg.
2: one weapon with FA firing mode. Dicepool 12, 3 targets.
Spend only 1 major action, can use edges. 4 dice for each target. AR -6 still good dmg.
What probability is with weapon in each hand and FA mode that you hit?
Correct me when i wrong.

[CigarSmoker]

Back to topic.
When used two weapons, you have to spend 1 minor action for Multiple attack and divide a Dicepool for each of weapon.
1: If you have Dicepool 12, 3 targets and one SMG capable FA in each hand.
Spend 1minor, 1 major action. Split Dicepool for each hand with weapon. Without Ambidexterity quality you cannt use Edge.
FA mode, First weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 but good dmg.
Second weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 good dmg.
2: one weapon with FA firing mode. Dicepool 12, 3 targets.
Spend only 1 major action, can use edges. 4 dice for each target. AR -6 still good dmg.
What probability is with weapon in each hand and FA mode that you hit?
Correct me when i wrong.

Since you already can split your dicepool in "FA mode" there is almost no benefit to fire "FA mode"with two weapons simultaneously. Exception: You want to split the shots between more than 10 targets. Lets say 20 Bullets for 20 Targets with 1 Dice each - possible but a bit risky ^^

[Reaver]

Back to topic.
When used two weapons, you have to spend 1 minor action for Multiple attack and divide a Dicepool for each of weapon.
1: If you have Dicepool 12, 3 targets and one SMG capable FA in each hand.
Spend 1minor, 1 major action. Split Dicepool for each hand with weapon. Without Ambidexterity quality you cannt use Edge.
FA mode, First weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 but good dmg.
Second weapon 2 dice for each target AR -6 good dmg.
2: one weapon with FA firing mode. Dicepool 12, 3 targets.
Spend only 1 major action, can use edges. 4 dice for each target. AR -6 still good dmg.
What probability is with weapon in each hand and FA mode that you hit?
Correct me when i wrong.

Since you already can split your dicepool in "FA mode" there is almost no benefit to fire "FA mode"with two weapons simultaneously. Exception: You want to split the shots between more than 10 targets. Lets say 20 Bullets for 20 Targets with 1 Dice each - possible but a bit risky ^^

One advantage of dual wielding FA weapons, twice the ammo count. Its not about firing both at the same time, its about how long you go until you reload.. useful for a running retreat..

[Xenon]

And a more general advantage of wielding two weapons that maybe does not have access to FA firing mode (firearm + firearm, firearm + melee or melee +melee) is that you may attack the same target twice (by splitting the pool and taking a minor action). Something you normally cannot do with just a single [melee or ranged] weapon (again, unless it have FA firing mode).