[penllawen]

Limiting attribute augmentation is not the ideal way of balancing magic. All character types/archetypes should have access to multiple augmentations without having to resort to sacrificing their archetype (magic, resonance, ect.).

Thanks - as ever - for your thoughtful ideas.

Wanted to pick up on this bit though. I totally agree with the principle but for me the execution (in 5e and 6e) is fatally flawed. Every other archetype pays a lot for attribute boosts - in nuyen, Essence, and/or power points. But for mages, these boosts come really cheap, especially once sustaining buffs like Focused Concentration, foci, and Quickening come into play.

And this applies double to higher tiers of boosts. It’s quite easy to come out of chargen with a mage who can cast a +4 version of Increase Attribute and almost guarantee no drain or at worst a box or two. For a combat character to boost Agility by the full 4, or a decker Logic, it’s a substantial investment. For a mage, it’s Tuesday.

It’s wildly unbalanced. Mages need something along these lines, but this ain’t it for me.

[Lormyr]

Ease of access is an issue. Focused Concentration is a poorly balanced quality, and I've already gone over Foci issues.

Remove both of those from the equation and then your only option is Quickening. Strong, yes, but it comes with a hole other host of potential social/stealth issues.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

"You can't bring spells in here" can be a common, or perhaps even nearly omnipresent rule across public places.

A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going.  F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.

[DigitalZombie]

You want to appropriately balance magic?

1). Set "mortal" Magic Attribute to a maximum rating of 12, and Initiate Grade to a maximum rating of 6.

Why: Unlimited growth potential is one of the most prominent reasons magic overshadows other options, which all have limited growth.

2). Make Foci have a maximum rating of 4, and that 4 being an artifact level item and appropriately rare. Dramatically increase both the karma and nuyen costs. At least triple the current costs, and I would go even higher.

Why: After a certain point in character progression, which occurs much faster than you might think if you are not experienced with the system, Foci becomes exceptionally more efficient than directly spending karma on your Magic Attribute or Initiate Grade. They also stack on top of the unlimited growth potential, which is ludicrous.

3). Limit the maximum Force of spirits which "mortals" can summon to their Magic Attribute or 8, whichever is lower.

Why: In SR6 even Force 6 is overbearing for most standard opposition that is not magic heavy.

I Think are All good suggestions, but also somewhat table specific. Ive never player at a table with anyone with10+ magic or 3+ initiation.
Or Crazy powerful foci. And out tables always had the impression that "magicrun" was a thing anyway.
( Spirit durability I agree with is a problem at All levels of Play).

Example: lets say your above suggestions were in effect. How would the have Limited your Mystic adept runner?
He would still have a +4 Attribute bonus on All 8 Attributes thanks to increase Attribute and quickining*. He would "only" have magic 12 and a max of 6 initiate grades.  He would be ultra fast thanks to his quickened* reflexes.
He would be able to summon force 8 spirits (I cant remember if your character dabbled in summoning).

No mundane runner would get to that lvl.



I suppose many disallow quickening for This reason

[Lormyr]

Ive never player at a table with anyone with10+ magic or 3+ initiation. Or Crazy powerful foci.

Sure. Like I said, I can only speculate how the "average" home game runs because 99% of my SR5 play has been with Missions. Played or ran a game every week for the better part of the last five years.

Example: lets say your above suggestions were in effect. How would the have Limited your Mystic adept runner?

Phain had Magic 12, Initiate Grade 12, a rating 6 power foci, a rating 12 centering foci, a rating 16 qi foci (iron will 8 ), a rating 12 qi foci (natural immunity 12), and a rating 6 qi foci (mystic armor 3). So using my above limitations, and not even considering how the increased foci costs and rarity might have removed the option for some of those foci entirely, he'd have lost:

- 14 of his 44 drain resistance dice, now 30 (6 from Initiate Grade from Centering, 8 from reduced centering foci).
- 6 raw power points from lost Initiate Grades.
- 2 dice from Magic tests from reduced power foci.
- 6 levels of Iron Will from reduced qi foci.
- 8 levels of Natural Immunity from reduced qi foci.
- 1 level of Mystic Armor from reduced qi foci.

And instead of strolling around with Tsumani (a Force 20 water spirit) he routinely summoned, he'd have had Big Wave (a Force 8 ) instead.

I personally think that is a huge power sink (primarily from the drain resistance pool), but you'll have to judge for yourself.

[penllawen]

Remove both of those from the equation and then your only option is Quickening. Strong, yes, but it comes with a hole other host of potential social/stealth issues.

"You can't bring spells in here" can be a common, or perhaps even nearly omnipresent rule across public places.

The problem with this is - if you’re using Quickening as per RAW - I don’t think they’re particularly interesting problems to have at the table. “You can’t go in there without raising an alarm because of your spell” has two likely outcomes - it’s important, so the mage does the astral equivalent of kicking the door in, and now we’re straight to Punk Mohawksville. Or the mage stays outside, and now I have a player bored while the rest of the team does whatever they’re trying to get done. Both are fairly dull, especially when used repeatedly.

Even 1 karma means (I think) no mage is going to regularly give up the Quickening to get in places. It’s not much of an investment, really, but it feels big. So I don’t feel this is a good counter balance.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Remove both of those from the equation and then your only option is Quickening. Strong, yes, but it comes with a hole other host of potential social/stealth issues.

"You can't bring spells in here" can be a common, or perhaps even nearly omnipresent rule across public places.

The problem with this is - if you’re using Quickening as per RAW - I don’t think they’re particularly interesting problems to have at the table. “You can’t go in there without raising an alarm because of your spell” has two likely outcomes - it’s important, so the mage does the astral equivalent of kicking the door in, and now we’re straight to Punk Mohawksville. Or the mage stays outside, and now I have a player bored while the rest of the team does whatever they’re trying to get done. Both are fairly dull, especially when used repeatedly.

The intent of the suggestion isn't to encourage "stay in the van" play by the mage, but to just not be sustaining any spells at all until the fight begins (or is imminent), rather than 24/7.

Even 1 karma means (I think) no mage is going to regularly give up the Quickening to get in places. It’s not much of an investment, really, but it feels big. So I don’t feel this is a good counter balance.

Quickening WOULD take a hit in effectiveness if the suggestion were followed, granted.

[mbisber]

A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going.  F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.

I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.

It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.

[penllawen]

The intent of the suggestion isn't to encourage "stay in the van" play by the mage, but to just not be sustaining any spells at all until the fight begins (or is imminent), rather than 24/7.

Eh. So now every mage spends their first 2-3 actions casting buff spells, just in time for the fight to end? Feels like that’s too far the other way. Samurai don’t spend 3 actions turning on their wired reflexes and drawing then loading guns.

[Kirklins]

I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.

It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.

True, but for security purposes more eyes means better response times and possibly better response effectiveness.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going.  F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.

I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.

It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.

Still auto-success to see spells' auras, as Masking doesn't hide those.  Only Foci.

The intent of the suggestion isn't to encourage "stay in the van" play by the mage, but to just not be sustaining any spells at all until the fight begins (or is imminent), rather than 24/7.

Eh. So now every mage spends their first 2-3 actions casting buff spells, just in time for the fight to end? Feels like that’s too far the other way. Samurai don’t spend 3 actions turning on their wired reflexes and drawing then loading guns.

Not saying that's how everyone SHOULD play; just saying it's an option.  Especially if one sees Focused Concentration as being OP.

Besides: yeah, there IS a similar argument to be had that Sammies shouldn't be running around with Wired Reflexes turned on 24/7, either. 

[mbisber]

A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going.  F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.

I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.

It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.

Still auto-success to see spells' auras, as Masking doesn't hide those.  Only Foci.

The Assensing Table says it requires 2 Hits with those 2D to see Spells, whether it is a Mage or a Spirit looking.

Perception + Intuition is offset by Stealth +Agility.

Where are these auto-successes coming from in SR6? 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

A flipside of the spirit cap means a generic Mag 6 security mage can have F1 spirits in 18 places of business at a time, each one on the lookout for anyone walking in with active magic going.  F1 isn't enough to MAKE you do something about it, but it's certainly enough to recognize active magic when it sees it and mentally alert its master.

I now have an SR6 book and have been looking it over.

It would seem that these F1 Spirits would have to get really lucky with their 2D vs. a Mage 6 with Masking.

Still auto-success to see spells' auras, as Masking doesn't hide those.  Only Foci.

The Assensing Table says it requires 2 Hits with those 2D to see Spells, whether it is a Mage or a Spirit looking.

No, it says that it takes 2 hits on Assensing to identify that a given astral form is specifically a spell.  Not that it takes 2 hits to SEE the astral form.  If the spirit was told "let me know whenever you detect astral forms you don't recognize" it doesn't matter if the spirit can't identify what the astral form is.

Perception + Intuition is offset by Stealth +Agility.

Where are these auto-successes coming from in SR6?

The same place that you don't have to roll to see someone who's not bothering to sneak. EDIT: In fact, see page 159: "Spells glow brightly on the astral..."
So, sure, if you ARE sneaking, a F1 spirit may not see you at all.  Of course, if you're going to the bother of sneaking around, anyone (physically OR astrally) who sees you sneaking around may assume you're up to shenanigans, and the spell you're trying to hide from a dopey astral watchdog may not be what gets you into trouble.

[Leith]

Wouldnt magic security be like matrix security? In that people still find it useful so you cant ban all magic. You would be compelled to ask the mage what that spell is, who they are and why theyre in the place.

Increase attribute doeant have much of a cost compared to cyberware. But being a mage is it's own priority option creating an opportunity cost. But, but, increase attribute and a few other spells like physical mask and control thoughts renders that cost irrelevant.
But, but, but magic becomes less powerful when there are other magics around to counter it... Not every (or any?) system can be balanced which is why RPGs have referees.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, unlike Magic, virtually EVERYONE is a Matrix user.

If you flat out ban all magic, you're only even affecting a percent of a percent of the population of the sprawl.  If Mages are actually part of your clientele, sure you'll probably want a policy with more discretion.  But for most places? "No Magic. Period." isn't going to cost them meaningful business.