Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Gamemasters' Lounge => Topic started by: Mahlkihl on <12-27-13/0214:56>
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Is the minus to Defense for the firer or the one being fired upon?
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The minus to defense is for the target of the gunfire. Burst fire reduces chance to dodge rather than increasing base damage as it did in previous editions.
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Burst fire reduces chance to dodge rather than increasing base damage as it did in previous editions.
in 4A the Attacker could choose between doing more damage or forcing a neg. Mod to the Defender.
I like it having more choices !
with a chosen Dance
Medicineman
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Burst fire reduces chance to dodge rather than increasing base damage as it did in previous editions.
in 4A the Attacker could choose between doing more damage or forcing a neg. Mod to the Defender.
I like it having more choices !
I get what you're saying medicineman, but damage = accuracy in SR5. Instead of only getting one choice, you're getting both choices at once. Burst fire simply got better now.
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but damage = accuracy in SR5.
??
No, ACC only Limits Your max Damage Output and only If your Dicepool is large enough and only If You don't raise the ACC of a Gun which is quite easy even without WiFi
Instead of only getting one choice, you're getting both choices at once.
?? How can You get both choices if You can't choose to do mor damage ?
Burst fire simply got better now.
in 4A I can choose to shoot 1 or 2 short Burst at 1 or 2 different Enemies
in 4A I can choose between a wide or narrow Burst for more or less damage
in 4A I can Mix according to the Situation
in 4A I can choose between a short and long Burst or 2 short Burst
In 5 I can only choose weather I want to shoot a short or a large Burst
How can THIS be better ???
with a worse Dance
Medicineman
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I think what frankhlane meant by accuracy was accuracy and not Accuracy.
As in your chance to hit your target. And since your net hits when hitting that target increase damage, a -3 dice for the defender = +1 DV to your attack. So burst fire does increase your damage.
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I think what frankhlane meant by accuracy was accuracy and not Accuracy.
As in your chance to hit your target. And since your net hits when hitting that target increase damage, a -3 dice for the defender = +1 DV to your attack. So burst fire does increase your damage.
Yes, but you have the same Option in SR4A PLUS you have the choice to directly increase the Damage by +2 for Short or +5 for Long Burst or to change the Mode or to change the Target, etc
with way more Dances
Medicinemna
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Thyank you
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They removed Narrow Bursts (and you don't really want to use it anyway, due to higher dodge pools) but they noted it may come back in another book.
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They removed Narrow Bursts (and you don't really want to use it anyway, due to higher dodge pools) but they noted it may come back in another book.
I bet its Material for Guns & Runs
with an old and proved Dance
Medicineman
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They removed Narrow Bursts (and you don't really want to use it anyway, due to higher dodge pools) but they noted it may come back in another book.
I bet its Material for Guns & Runs
Maybe, but I maintain that when your defender rolls less dice to defend, the attacker will consistently do more damage AND you have a higher chance of hitting your target. In this way, the new burst system is the best of both worlds instead of picking "less chance to hit and more damage" or "more chance to hit and normal damage" you just pick "more chance to hit and more damage". Best of both worlds.
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How is it "best of both worlds" if there were two options and they removed one? A burst in 5th does the same thing as a Wide Burst in 4th, and 4th already had the "net hits add to damage" mechanic.
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An average 4th edition Street Sammy could fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Narrow Burst for 6P Base + 9DV burst fire, for a total of 15P damage. He loses 7 dice in the process on an unmodified gun. The target's defense test is unaffected. He deals -1 AP.
An average 5th edition Street Sammy can fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Burst for 11P base damage. He loses 6 dice in the process on an unmodified gun, and reduces the target's defense test by 9 dice. He deals -2 AP.
It certainly looks to me like you can do both at once in 5th edition. Yeah they got rid of Narrow Burst, but every gun has a much higher base DV. You really don't need bonus damage anymore as just about anything can one shot an opponent. Even the smallest palm pistol in 5th edition deals a base of 6P damage, equivalent to Assault Rifles and the largest Heavy Pistol in 4th edition.
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The DV increase happened to every weapon (and Armor went up as well), and applies to non-burst attacks as well - it has nothing to do with bursts. And of course, "Narrow Bursts wouldn't be as useful in 5th as they are in 4th, since the base DV is higher, recoil works differently and defense pools are bigger compared to attack pools, than in 4th" does not equal "Bursts in 5th increase both your chance to hit and your damage, unlike Wide Bursts in 4th".
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An average 4th edition Street Sammy could fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Narrow Burst for 6P Base + 9DV burst fire, for a total of 15P damage. He loses 7 dice in the process on an unmodified gun. The target's defense test is unaffected. He deals -1 AP.
An average 5th edition Street Sammy can fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Burst for 11P base damage. He loses 6 dice in the process on an unmodified gun, and reduces the target's defense test by 9 dice. He deals -2 AP.
It certainly looks to me like you can do both at once in 5th edition. Yeah they got rid of Narrow Burst, but every gun has a much higher base DV. You really don't need bonus damage anymore as just about anything can one shot an opponent. Even the smallest palm pistol in 5th edition deals a base of 6P damage, equivalent to Assault Rifles and the largest Heavy Pistol in 4th edition.
Didn't You forget in your equation that in SR5 Dodge is REA & INT (not just REA) and that SR5 Armor is X1.5 compared to 4A ?
JahtaHey
Medicineman
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Armor still loses out, by the way. Say that (ignoring hitchances for a second) someone gained 9 extra dodge+armor dice, that's only 3 hits. A Heavy Pistol went from 5 to 8, anything above it will win out in damage.
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An average 4th edition Street Sammy could fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Narrow Burst for 6P Base + 9DV burst fire, for a total of 15P damage. He loses 7 dice in the process on an unmodified gun. The target's defense test is unaffected. He deals -1 AP.
An average 5th edition Street Sammy can fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Burst for 11P base damage. He loses 6 dice in the process on an unmodified gun, and reduces the target's defense test by 9 dice. He deals -2 AP.
It certainly looks to me like you can do both at once in 5th edition. Yeah they got rid of Narrow Burst, but every gun has a much higher base DV. You really don't need bonus damage anymore as just about anything can one shot an opponent. Even the smallest palm pistol in 5th edition deals a base of 6P damage, equivalent to Assault Rifles and the largest Heavy Pistol in 4th edition.
Didn't You forget in your equation that in SR5 Dodge is REA & INT (not just REA) and that SR5 Armor is X1.5 compared to 4A ?
JahtaHey
Medicineman
And skill caps doubled, while damage tracks didn't change. Let's say the Street Samurai example from each edition runs into the Professional Rating 5 grunts from each edition.
4th Edition Profession Rating 5 rolls Agility 7 + Firearms 5 + Smartlink 2 for 14 base dice. He fires his FN HAR on Full Auto Narrow Burst, losing 7 dice. He rolls 7 dice against the Street Samurai's Reaction 6. For some ridiculous reason the Street Samurai doesn't have the Dodge skill, which is a fatal mistake to make as a Street Sam in 4th edition, but if she did, she could choose to full defense and add up to 6 more dice to that test, giving her an easy dice pool advantage over her enemy, though she doesn't really need it. If the attack hits, she soaks a minimum of 16P with 4 body and 5 Ballistic Armor, so it does have a decent chance of killing her, but it will just as likely miss and do no damage.
5th Edition Profession Rating 5 rolls Agility 7 + Firearms 9 + Smartlink 2 for 18 base dice. He fires his Ares Alpha on Full Auto Burst, losing 5 dice. He rolls 13 dice against the Street Samurai's Reaction 7 + Intuition 3 - 9 from the burst, so he's got 1 dice. He full defenses out of necessity, adding his Willpower, and jumps up to 4 dice. Hell, he might as well edge it too, getting 5 exploding dice against his opponent's 13. This is all but guaranteed to hit him, at which point he soaks anywhere from 12P to 18P with Body 7 and Armor 11. 18 dice, So if he squeaks by with only 1 or 2 net hits on the defense test he might survive with a pile of Physical damage, but he's also way better equipped to soak than the 4th edition Sammy was. Using her stats of 4 Body and an Armor Vest (9 armor -2 AP), he'd be rolling 11 dice to soak, and could very easily die.
Despite adding a second attribute to defense tests and increasing armor, the increase of skill caps and damage values while condition boxes stayed the same makes 5th edition way more lethal. Adding the ability to fire Narrow bursts would be complete overkill, jumping an Ares Alpha from 11P to 20P. You mess up that defense test and you might as well not bother with the soak, because nothing short of a heavily armored troll survives that.
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By the way, if they introduce a burst thing that scales the damage a bit more, it might be worth it, but a normal Narrow Burst rule in SR5 would either be madness or an instant killer.
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[spoiler]
An average 4th edition Street Sammy could fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Narrow Burst for 6P Base + 9DV burst fire, for a total of 15P damage. He loses 7 dice in the process on an unmodified gun. The target's defense test is unaffected. He deals -1 AP.
An average 5th edition Street Sammy can fire an Ares Alpha on Full Auto Burst for 11P base damage. He loses 6 dice in the process on an unmodified gun, and reduces the target's defense test by 9 dice. He deals -2 AP.
It certainly looks to me like you can do both at once in 5th edition. Yeah they got rid of Narrow Burst, but every gun has a much higher base DV. You really don't need bonus damage anymore as just about anything can one shot an opponent. Even the smallest palm pistol in 5th edition deals a base of 6P damage, equivalent to Assault Rifles and the largest Heavy Pistol in 4th edition.
Didn't You forget in your equation that in SR5 Dodge is REA & INT (not just REA) and that SR5 Armor is X1.5 compared to 4A ?
JahtaHey
Medicineman
And skill caps doubled, while damage tracks didn't change. Let's say the Street Samurai example from each edition runs into the Professional Rating 5 grunts from each edition.
4th Edition Profession Rating 5 rolls Agility 7 + Firearms 5 + Smartlink 2 for 14 base dice. He fires his FN HAR on Full Auto Narrow Burst, losing 7 dice. He rolls 7 dice against the Street Samurai's Reaction 6. For some ridiculous reason the Street Samurai doesn't have the Dodge skill, which is a fatal mistake to make as a Street Sam in 4th edition, but if she did, she could choose to full defense and add up to 6 more dice to that test, giving her an easy dice pool advantage over her enemy, though she doesn't really need it. If the attack hits, she soaks a minimum of 16P with 4 body and 5 Ballistic Armor, so it does have a decent chance of killing her, but it will just as likely miss and do no damage.
5th Edition Profession Rating 5 rolls Agility 7 + Firearms 9 + Smartlink 2 for 18 base dice. He fires his Ares Alpha on Full Auto Burst, losing 5 dice. He rolls 13 dice against the Street Samurai's Reaction 7 + Intuition 3 - 9 from the burst, so he's got 1 dice. He full defenses out of necessity, adding his Willpower, and jumps up to 4 dice. Hell, he might as well edge it too, getting 5 exploding dice against his opponent's 13. This is all but guaranteed to hit him, at which point he soaks anywhere from 12P to 18P with Body 7 and Armor 11. 18 dice, So if he squeaks by with only 1 or 2 net hits on the defense test he might survive with a pile of Physical damage, but he's also way better equipped to soak than the 4th edition Sammy was. Using her stats of 4 Body and an Armor Vest (9 armor -2 AP), he'd be rolling 11 dice to soak, and could very easily die.
Despite adding a second attribute to defense tests and increasing armor, the increase of skill caps and damage values while condition boxes stayed the same makes 5th edition way more lethal. Adding the ability to fire Narrow bursts would be complete overkill, jumping an Ares Alpha from 11P to 20P. You mess up that defense test and you might as well not bother with the soak, because nothing short of a heavily armored troll survives that.
[/spoiler]
Well explained.
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I also forgot a very important detail: In 4th edition, the modifier for Narrow Bursts did not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating to determine whether or not an attack dealt Physical or Stun, so even if you blow a guy away with 15 DV damage, you were incredibly likely to only deal Stun damage, especially when you added Arsenal to the equation and you had PPP and Formfitting Body Armor. I don't think I ever got dealt Physical damage when I played 4th edition. Not once.
In 5th edition, all the damage codes are higher by a lot at the base level, and all the AP codes went up when the Armor ratings did, so you are pretty damn likely to take Physical Damage, and overflow kills you instead of knocking you unconscious.
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I also forgot a very important detail: In 4th edition, the modifier for Narrow Bursts did not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating to determine whether or not an attack dealt Physical or Stun, so even if you blow a guy away with 15 DV damage, you were incredibly likely to only deal Stun damage, especially when you added Arsenal to the equation and you had PPP and Formfitting Body Armor. I don't think I ever got dealt Physical damage when I played 4th edition. Not once.
In 5th edition, all the damage codes are higher by a lot at the base level, and all the AP codes went up when the Armor ratings did, so you are pretty damn likely to take Physical Damage, and overflow kills you instead of knocking you unconscious.
All hail 5e. I love this stuff, chummers.