[kainite311]

OK, I thought I had a grasp on Matrix combat, then didn't, then did, then googled even more stuff and now my head hurts due to several conflicting arguments on the various forums. So gonna try to break it up into several direct questions. Hopefully understandable and not to convoluted...

1 - Here is how I understand it. Most matrix attacks that can cause damage list an opposed roll (i.e. Brute Force, Data Spike, Resonance Spike...). The net hits determine the damage amount in accordance with the type of attack's description. Seems simple enough so far. This damage is Matrix damage. Now Matrix damage from these attacks is then resisted by Device Rating + Firewall (Resonance Spike being the exception). Now my question is what if it's to a persona? As I understand it, your persona subsumes the device (p. 235 Core) when you are actively using it on the Matrix. So wouldn't you use Willpower + Firewall to resist Matrix damage (for instance decker in VR on cyberdeck) to your device? Or am I getting confused with biofeedback damage (which is also Willpower + Firewall)?

2 - Technomancers in the above situation. Stun Condition Monitor is their Matrix Condition for their Living Persona. All matrix damage is done as Stun damage to them. So same as above, after the opposed rolls and Matrix damage to them is determined, do they resist matrix damage to their stun track (for the matrix damage) with Device, or Willpower, + Firewall. In VR mode they are always hot-sim. All biofeedback damage is physical. So if the source of damage was Black IC, Sparky IC (will get to Blaster in a sec), or hacker using Biofeedback program, after the opposed roll and DV is determined, they make a resist roll for the matrix damage (stun), and then another resist roll for the physical damage (using Willpower + Firewall). This seems like they more delicate as they are filling up both tracks simultaneously, and accruing wound penalties from both tracks per attack, vs a decker filling up physical or stun track one at a time in addition to their deck condition track. Am I reading into this wrong?

3 - So Blaster (Grey IC) and Blackout program only do stun damage (regardless of hot-sim). So a Technomancer takes double damage to their Stun Condition Monitor from these attacks (Matrix damage + biofeedback)? Ouch... Seems they are even more delicate now...

[Xenon]

Hi there :-)

OK, I thought I had a grasp on Matrix combat, then didn't, then did, then googled even more stuff and now my head hurts due to several conflicting arguments on the various forums.

:-(

Most matrix attacks that can cause damage list an opposed roll (i.e. Brute Force, Data Spike, Resonance Spike...). The net hits determine the damage amount in accordance with the type of attack's description. Seems simple enough so far.

Yes, this part is pretty straight forward.

If you want to deal damage to another persona within the matrix you normally take a Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] Test which is opposed by Firewall + either Intelligence (for Data Spike) or Willpower (for Brute Force).

If the test fail to generate 1 net hit or more then the attacker take 1 box of unresisted matrix damage per hit (not net hit) the defender got when defending (but he defender is no alerted of the attack). The firewall of the future automatically defend and also strike back when attacked.

If the attack is successful then the defender is alerted and may also take matrix damage (how much depend on the attack, how many marks the attacker have on the defender and also which programs the attacker is currently running).

The defender resist the matrix damage with Device Rating + Firewall.

As I understand it, your persona subsumes the device (p. 235 Core) when you are actively using it on the Matrix.

That is correct.

When you connect to a Grid and the Matrix as a whole you do so from a device. Normally a commlink, but hackers often connect via cyberdeck and riggers via RCC (and sometimes even directly on a vehicle). The device icon will be replaced by your persona icon. The persona icon will have the same device attribute and matrix attributes (including firewall) as the device used to form the persona on.

So wouldn't you use Willpower + Firewall to resist Matrix damage (for instance decker in VR on cyberdeck) to your device?

No.

You oppose Brute Force attacks (among other things) with Willpower + Firewall, but to resist Matrix Damage you always use Device Rating + Firewall. It is not actually the meat bod that take the damage, it is the device the character used to access the matrix that take the damage.

Or am I getting confused with biofeedback damage (which is also Willpower + Firewall)?

Maybe

Biofeedback damage will hit the actual character, not the persona (or living persona), and it is resisted with Willpower + Firewall.

Technomancers

Technomancers are a bit different in that they normally have a living persona.

Note however that Technomancers can go "off line" with their living persona and they can also form a regular persona on a regular commlink (or a cheap cyberdeck).

It is also plausible that many Technomancers do just that in order to disguise the fact that they are Technomancer. Also to use the commlink (or cyberdeck) to be the master of their PAN so their other devices get a bit higher firewall and sleaze rating. And to broadcast their fake SIN. and fake licenses associated with their the fake SIN...

Stun Condition Monitor is their Matrix Condition for their Living Persona.

That is correct.

Which mean that there is no device to "soak" the matrix damage if her living persona get hit. It will go straight to the Technomancer's brain. Rather than taking a Hardware test to repair the cyberdeck after a run - the Technomancer need time to rest to recover from the stun damage.

...do they resist matrix damage to their stun track (for the matrix damage) with Device

Yes.

Matrix Damage is resisted with Device Rating + Firewall.

The Device rating of a Living persona  = Resonance of the Technomancer.

or Willpower, + Firewall.

No.

Matrix Damage is resisted with Device Rating + Firewall. Not Willpower.

In VR mode they are always hot-sim.

Correct.

If you ain't living on the edge, you are taking up too much space.

So if the source of damage was Black IC, Sparky IC (will get to Blaster in a sec), or hacker using Biofeedback program, after the opposed roll and DV is determined, they make a resist roll for the matrix damage (stun), and then another resist roll for the physical damage (using Willpower + Firewall).

Correct.

Note that if an attack does 8 DV Matrix Damage and it is resisted down to 4 Boxes by Device Rating + Firewall the character only take 4DV Biofeedback, not 8DV, which he or she then resist with Willpower + Firewall.

This seems like they more delicate as they are filling up both tracks simultaneously, and accruing wound penalties from both tracks per attack, vs a decker filling up physical or stun track one at a time in addition to their deck condition track. Am I reading into this wrong?

That is correct.

3 - So Blaster (Grey IC) and Blackout program only do stun damage (regardless of hot-sim). So a Technomancer takes double damage to their Stun Condition Monitor from these attacks (Matrix damage + biofeedback)? Ouch... Seems they are even more delicate now...

Yes.

Technomancers and Deckers are good at different things. Technomancers are not as well prepared at taking Matrix Damage as Deckers normally are.

[kainite311]

Follow up question-
The actual matrix damage done to techno, which in turn is their stun condition, is still considered matrix damage only correct? Not a type of biofeedback subject to natural hardening or biofeedback filter or the neural echo.

[Xenon]

Correct.

[kainite311]

That's what I thought, but they worded Natural Hardening kinda weird:

NATURAL HARDENING
COST: 10 KARMA
This quality makes the character’s neural structure resistant
to feedback. This gives her 1 point of natural biofeedback
filtering, which is cumulative with a Biofeedback Filter
program or a technomancer’s firewall (p. 251).

The bit at the end calling out Techno's, rather then just saying +1 DP vs Biofeedback damage or +1 to Firewall vs all Biofeedback, was just odd. There seems no reason to call out Techno's specifically or mention Firewall, since it is an additive DP vs +1 stat.
Thank you.

[Xenon]

Yes, the wording might be a bit odd now when you say it. But mechanically wise it is just a positive dice pool modifier against biofeedback damage.

For another reference you can also look at the James Final Calculations on p. 102 (he is a TM with the PQ):

Firewall: 5 (+1 with the Natural Hardening quality against Biofeedback)

[kainite311]

Another question...

It does indicate that the roll to defend against the matrix attack is indeed a defense roll (and not an opposed skill roll) on p237. But is it subject to limits? Technically it uses a skill as part of the defense, but when attacking the skill limit is instead replaced by the device stat (A/S/D/F) and the skill limit no longer applies... So if the defense roll is subject to a limit, would you use the device stats, or the actual skill? I notice that in the descriptions of each matrix action it clearly lists the limit in the attacker's roll, and nothing in the defender's roll, leading me to believe that this 'defense" test bypasses the normal rules about introducing a skill to the test, and adding a limit...

[Xenon]

Not sure I follow. The defender generally roll two attributes (such as Intuition + Firewall, Willpower + Firewall, Logic + Firewall, Willpower + Sleaze, Logic + Sleaze etc.) with no limit.

Which defense roll are you thinking about (that use a skill rather than 2 attributes)?

[kainite311]

My bad. Not sure what I was thinking. Somehow had it in my head that they were using skills at some point this morning, chalk it up to morning brain freeze. In my head I meant whether there was a limit, and somehow got it stuck in my head (temporarily) that it was skill + deck attribute for some reason. But yeah, that's what I thought, no limit on the defense test. Thank you

[Xenon]

Glad that it worked out! Please add more questions if you have them. I love trying to explain SR5 matrix rules and how the matrix works in general in this edition :-)

[kainite311]

Ok here is another question. Can a Technomancer, using one of the machine echos, who is jumped into a drone still do AR hacking using their living persona(assuming that is their action for the IP)?

[Xenon]

The TM will always (must) be in VR while jumped in (and since she is a a TM she needs to be in hot-sim). If she enter Augmented Reality Mode (AR) she will automatically drop out from the drone.

When the TM jump into a drone (she is either owner of or have 3 marks on) the device icon of the drone out on the Grid is merged/replaced with her living persona. She will use her living persona matrix attributes and the TM (not the drone) will soak any matrix damage.

Rules about hacking while jumped in are scarce since mostly riggers jump in, but as I read it she is free to take matrix actions while jumped in. The only exception to this would be Jump Into Rigged Device which first require the TM to drop out before she can jump into another device (since she is not using a RCC). 

[kainite311]

I was looking at from being able to use the AR rules in that your still aware of your (drone's) physical surroundings and you can still function and move as the drone, just like someone hacking from AR (and all the penalties that come with the distraction). You already have the AR overlay working for you. Good for defending your team from enemy hacker, but not so much a liability as your still functioning as the drone. It's niche thing to be honest, but I can see where it could be handy in a pinch.

The alternative as I see it, if you go VR hacking is you must now use the matrix rules, drone has to go limp, because you have to change your perspective to full VR immersion/iconography. This would leave you blind to the physical world (the concept of distance and movement among other things, is drastically different, physics...)

This is poorly worded, as I am trying to use some analogies and failing to come up with better ones then "like AR even though you are VR" from a still functional in the real world.

[Xenon]

What AR specific rules would that be?

You can reach any device icon in the entire matrix no matter if you are in AR or VR. Noise due to distance is calculated from your body in both cases. Mechanically there is really no difference (execpt that your meat body goes limb and you get VR initiative).

While jumped in you use the sensor suite of the drone. It act as your eyes and ears. Your teammates can also stream video feeds (from their wireless enabled smartlinks and cybereyes or whatnot) to you no matter if you are in AR, VR or jumped in.