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[SR6] Sanity check: Hacking scenarios

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ZeroSum

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« Reply #60 on: <10-13-19/1057:37> »
Good catch on the data spike damage. That's a holdover typo, we had not settled on calling it attack rating at that point ... it is based on the attack attribute only. I will submit the change, thanks!!
Thank you!

ZeroSum

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« Reply #61 on: <10-14-19/1101:19> »
Realized I had not responded to this yet. Thread got a little derailed with the whole Matrix Search thing. Anyway.

Just replying to the Data Spike portion in this post:

Assumption 1: Smartlink would be the most likely reason.  You could run a cable from your eye to the gun perhaps, but that looks funny.  Likewise, if you have obvious cybereyes yet they're not broadcasting on the matrix, security might see that as suspicious.  Of course, if you wanted to be in AR, your eyes would have to be wirelessly enabled as well or else your image link won't be giving you any visual AROs.
This represents another topology challenge, actually.

Now that we know devices can be protected by PANs, and PANs and Hosts can be nested, the topology of the Wireless Matrix has changed, potentially completely.

Let's say I have a commlink. It forms the basis for my PAN, and I've slaved the wirelessly enabled smartlink to my pan. In addition, I've wired my smartgun to my datajack in order to form a network between the smartlink in my eyes, and the smartgun in my hands.

Is the smartgun now accessible wirelessly through my PAN? I would think yes; the only way to truly remain offline is to completely turn off all wireless capability of a device; you can still use wires, but as soon as you introduce a wireless component into an otherwise wired LAN, the hierarchy of nested hosts and PANs suggest that you now have a bridge into the network.

This would also explain how Data Taps work, incidentally.

Also, do you need an image link in your cybereyes if you have a Datajack or other form of DNI? If I have Cybereyes but no DNI then I would say yes, you need an image link to see AR. But if I have some form of DNI then I do not need any kind of link to be able to see AR or sensor data, as long as those devices are wirelessly connected to my DNI.


Assumption 2: I don't think it's safe assumption at all that Rating corresponds to Device Rating.  It's an unfortunate omission that suggested Device Ratings was left out, but still I'd recommend using 5e's yardsticks until such time 6we gives something explicitly different.  So, the cybereyes should (IMO) have Device Ratings compared to their grade rather than rating.  Probably DR 2 for standard grade.
Putting on my devil's advocate hat here for a moment; if not device rating in SR6, then what? SR6 has not introduced the concept of devices having a fixed device rating based on a concept of technological advancement. Object resistance is defined, but device rating is not. With the exception of Bows (rating 14 device, ultra-tech bow) the rating of most objects is something I think a lot of people would consider a logical leap to substitute for device rating. Is it right? Maybe not. But what else do we have to go on if you look at the CRB alone?


Question 1: no firewall stated = Firewall 0.  Pays to protect stuff you don't want hacked. Or, like you opined, turn the wireless off if at all feasible.
Agreed. This does mean that hacking unprotected devices is laughably easy; the obvious question is "how many devices are truly unprotected in the 6th World?"

Cars rolling down the highway are probably slaved to PANs at the very least, hosts at best. Otherwise even the greenest decker in the world could just buy a single hit on drones and vehicles without any firewall or data processing stat, because there would be no opposed dice pool for certain actions.

I don't see anything to quibble about on the mathemetics on the Data Spike.  Although I do want to point out that in 6we there's a very important new aspect to Matrix damage: it applies penalties.  So if you Data Spike say a gun or drone, and only do 6 damage, you may not have bricked it but you're still imposing -2 dice from the damage!  Harder to say what -2 dice to using Cybereyes would mean, but surely it'd at least apply its penalty to Perception tests.
Excellent point about penalties, I hadn't considered that. Thanks!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #62 on: <10-14-19/1128:47> »
I wasn't saying do away with Device Rating... I was saying the things Rating signifies isn't at all the same thing as Device Rating and shouldn't be used in absence of a given Device Rating. A Deltaware Rating 1 Cyberjack should be harder to hack than a Standard grade Rating 2 Cyberjack.  And lots of Cyberware doesn't even HAVE a rating, anyway.  A notable example: Smartlink.

I'm advocating using 5e's old chart (which in the case of cyberware, gives DRs based on grade), since an equivalent wasn't put in the 6we CRB. 
« Last Edit: <10-14-19/1138:37> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #63 on: <10-14-19/1208:20> »
Is the smartgun now accessible wirelessly ...
I don't think it really matter how you nest or daisy chain things. In the end you still need to ask yourself if the smartgun system (smartgun + smartlink + DNI) can be wireless hacked from the matrix or not. Either it can (and you gain access to its wireless bonuses) or it can't (and you don't gain access to its wireless bonuses). You can't have the cake and eat it too.


Also, do you need an image link in your cybereyes if you have a Datajack or other form of DNI? If I have Cybereyes but no DNI then I would say yes, you need an image link to see AR.
Cybereyes comes with an image link as default.


But what else do we have to go on if you look at the CRB alone?
For now that is all you have to go on by a strict reading of RAW, but I think that (RAI) they just forgot to include the Common Device Rating table from SR5 (same as they originally forgot to include the Common Perception Test table).


This does mean that hacking unprotected devices is laughably easy; the obvious question is "how many devices are truly unprotected in the 6th World?"
It seem as if RAW here is that only a handful of your items will be inside your PAN (Data Processing of your commlink set the number of devices you may slave to it) while RAI seem to be that most items will belong to a network of sorts and that it mostly boils down to resolving which network it belong to.


Cars rolling down the highway are probably slaved to PANs at the very least, hosts at best. Otherwise even the greenest decker in the world could just buy a single hit on drones and vehicles without any firewall or data processing stat, because there would be no opposed dice pool for certain actions.
Note that even if you have admin access to a drone or vehicle does not automatically mean you get to control i (if someone else is already remote controlling it or is already jumped into it, for example)


I'm advocating using 5e's old chart (which in the case of cyberware, gives DRs based on grade), since an equivalent wasn't put in the 6we CRB.
Agreed.

hulka

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« Reply #64 on: <10-15-19/1500:42> »
When we use DR table from 5e. There is cyberware DR 2.
When I buy Cybereye Rating 4, is the same like DR4? Or DR2.
How I can protect Cyebereye in PAN when i have Renraku Sensei commlink DR3 but D/F 0/2.
When itst he same DR4 Cybereye And when i  count DR=firewall it is more than firewall of my commlink.
And what other cyberware and devices? How much devices i can connect to Renraku before he dies.
« Last Edit: <10-15-19/1504:46> by hulka »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #65 on: <10-15-19/1506:29> »
When we use DR table from 5e. There is cyberware DR 2.
When I buy Cybereye Rating 4, is the same like DR4? Or DR2.
How I can protect Cyebereye in PAN when i have Renraku Sensei commlink DR3 but D/F 0/2.
And what other cyberware and devices? How much devices i can connect to Renraku before he dies.

Under 5e, it was:

Used/Standard grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 2.  Alpha grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 3.  Beta grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 4.  Delta grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 5.

In 6we, I'd use those same values, but since you don't get a free firewall stat to match your DR in this edition, it'd be DR+0 to defend against hacking if you don't put your cyberware in your PAN.  Also note that, per the August Errata, if you ARE protecting a device you can not only use the Firewall of your commlink/cyberjack/RCC you can also use the better value between Device Rating and the relevant Mental attribute to defend against matrix actions.  Got a nice big Intuition but a DR 2 cybereyes implant?  Use your nice big Intuition, then.  Or your nice big DR, if you have bad mental stats :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

hulka

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« Reply #66 on: <10-15-19/1737:54> »
I donnt find this Defense neither in CRB nor in August Erratta.
CRB p.179 "Attack Rating is the persona’s Attack + Sleaze. Defense Rating is the target’s Data Processing + Firewall.
In these core rules, there are two primary ways to attack a foe—Data Spike and Tarpit. Attacks are defined as actions that deal damage directly to an icon."
CRB p.181 "Data Spike (illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major)"
CRB p.182 "Using Full Matrix Defense prevents you from attacking, but it makes your defense stronger. The next time you are attacked in the Matrix (meaning an action is taken that will directly cause you damage), add your Firewall rating to your defense roll."
CRB p.180 "Brute Force (illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall (Major)"
Nowhere is mention that i can use Intuition or bigger Device Rating value.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #67 on: <10-15-19/1747:49> »
Pages 6-7 of the August Errata, which takes effect on the CRB text on pg 179.  I was referencing the bolded portion of that text in the previous post.

Quote
p. 179, Matrix Actions
Adjust paragraph two to read as follows:
Where two different dice pools are listed, such
as “Intuition + Firewall or Sleaze + Firewall,” per-
sonas with Mental attributes use the pool with
those attributes. Drones use their Pilot Rating in
place of the Mental Attribute. A persona actively
defending for a device or host can use the other
pool with the device or host attributes.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

hulka

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« Reply #68 on: <10-15-19/1838:57> »
Im not sure.
The rules say about mental attributes: "Where two different dice pools are listed, such as “Intuition + Firewall or Sleaze + Firewall,” personas with Mental attributes use the pool with those attributes." This is for example Edit Files action. Where is only one option you cannt choose other.
OK, next sentence say "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes." Not mental attributes.
Action rules are still valid, Data Spike Brute Force Tar Pit etc. Its A+a vs B+b.
When i have commlink in host, i can used attributes from host and not commlink.
There is difference in 5e and 6e Full matrix defense. In 5e Full matrix defence is like, i pay attention to defense so i add willpower to defense. In 6e is only you can add your firewall to defense. And when my firewall is  D/F 0/2 what i can do? its still passive. I'm waiting for death.  Maybe next errata correct this.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #69 on: <10-15-19/1904:56> »
Well, agreed that "actively defended" could have been defined in the hotfix.  I'm comfortable saying that the intent in all of this is that, as long as the device is actively being used by someone, the minimum dice pool to resist hacking is (the higher of Device Rating or applicable Mental Stat) + 0 if there's no Firewall.

If we're talking about hacking some cybereyes on a shelf somewhere that noone's using (and somehow still have power), yeah they aren't reasonably being "actively defended" and they'll be stuck with 0 Intuition/Willpower + 0 Firewall for a total of 0 dice to resist.
« Last Edit: <10-15-19/1908:43> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #70 on: <10-16-19/0023:30> »
I should note that if a cyberware shop were to have its gear online and hackable, and the eyes would start following me while I was visiting? I'd take a Reputation hit for vaporising the entire place.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Xenon

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« Reply #71 on: <10-16-19/0204:32> »
A host without a spider defend with firewall alone (as clarified by example). It does not defend with device rating plus firewall.

A host with a spider attending the host defend with mental attributes of the spider plus firewall of the host (also clarified by the same example).

It stand to reason that a device that is left unattended (such as a maglock that was configured once and then left alone or that pair of cybereyes in the shop) would defend with firewall alone (if it have access to one).

It seem as if a device that is attended or used by someone on a regular basis (or whatever actively defended might mean) get to use the mental attributes of that person (hacking a firearm or installed cybereyes) plus firewall of the PAN in case it happen to be one of the handful devices you can slave to your commlink or the firewall of the host in case it is part of a WAN.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #72 on: <10-16-19/0226:14> »
Oh wow, I didn't read that part in detail yet. So if I want to make a high-level host more vulnerable, I should poison the Spiders?? O_O That is an AWESOME way of getting into a high-level Host: Poison all Spiders with those breakdown capsules that release at a specific time, to knock them all out and do your thing in the 5 minutes that buys you. Now I want to write that story/run.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

hulka

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« Reply #73 on: <10-16-19/0319:27> »
I dissagree with this.
Rules clearly say how defend again attack. This attack are speciphic action discrabed in the rules. Each action has own defensive mechanism. When im not hecker, i have only a few option as defend. This is Full matrix defense (which 6e are different of 5e, and dosnnt sense) or reboot my devices.
Next. When i go in sprawl my commlink in my pocket, is only icon. It become persona when i interact with matrix by commlink.
So, maybe defense is my intention to defense, how i set defensive rules in my commlink. Its electronic skill + firewall. When im attacked my commlink bzzz, bzz INTRUDER,INTRUDER, I switch on my commlink, and googles and AR gloves, switch to AR and actively fight again intruder, Its my Full defense. I can add my willpower to defensive roll.
It is as i imagine this.

Next case to discusse.
Tarpit action "Data Processing rating by the same amount. If a device’s Data Processing rating is reduced to 0, the user cannot perform a Matrix action until it is 1 or more."
Commlinks
ITEM               DEVICE RATING    ATTRIBUTES (D/F)        ACTIVE PROGRAM SLOTS      AVAIL       COST
Meta Link                 1                       1/0                                   0                                 2           100¥
Sony Emperor           2                       1/1                                  1                                 2            700¥
Renraku Sensei         3                       2/0                                  1                                 2           1,000¥
Erika Elite                 4                        2/1                                 2                                 2           2,500¥
Hermes Ikon             5                        3/0                                 2                                 3           5,000¥
Transys Avalon          6                       3/1                                 3                                 3            8,000¥

In your example i can used Device Rating of commlink? Why are attributes there.
When i will follow idea of Tarpit, than:
3 commlinks has D/F x/0. I have functional and non protected commlink. In CRB i can switch attributes freely with minor action. When i switch my Hermes Ikon to D/F 0/3 (i want protect my naked photos), it became expansive fashion accessory. In my image link i see only  frozen icons and big rotatting circle.
Now i only can reboot commlink to factory settings.
« Last Edit: <10-16-19/0322:57> by hulka »

hulka

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« Reply #74 on: <10-16-19/0357:41> »
I thought and read again CRB.
As SSDR written "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes."
Maybe I understand more.
When i Grab my googles, AR gloves or commlink itself i can change
Data Spike
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major) to Cracking + Logic vs. willpower + Firewall.
But when my commlink is in my pocket allways applies Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall.
« Last Edit: <10-16-19/0402:24> by hulka »