Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: ZeroSum on <10-11-19/0818:30>
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I've run through a couple of sample hacks in my spare time, but I wanted to make sure that I'm not making any obvious mistakes. I'd like to run a few scenarios by you as a form of sanity check; I'll do them one at a time so we can discuss anything that comes up separately.
For simplicity, I am assuming that I am successful on each test; while this is unlikely in-game, it's just easier when going through the motions.
Assumption 1: Running Silent has no associated action, so I'm assuming that you simply declare that you are running silent and as long as you are not actively being watched you are now hidden. This would be similar to how Stealth is treated in the physical world.
Assumption 2: The Probe action states that it is an Extended test, and I am assuming that a hacker could continue rolling with the cumulative -1 dice pool penalty for each test to gain more hits as long as he does not glitch or critically glitch. Additionally, in instances where Backdoor Entry is used I am assuming that a successful Probe has already been performed.
Assumption 3: Most hackers are likely to be using hot-sim VR as this gives you 1 Major action and 4 Minor actions per turn (potential for 2 Major actions per turn).
Scenario 1 - Simple Datasteal: Hack a device, find an encrypted file using a known hash, copy it, and then delete it
In this case we are going to go in quietly to avoid detection and accrue as little OS as possible.
Turn 1:
Major Action - Backdoor Entry
Major Action - Hash Check
Results: Legal admin access obtained through using Backdoor Entry, which means no +3 Overwatch per turn. Target file found without having to decrypt every encrypted file on the device.
OS: +X, as 2 Illegal Matrix Actions were taken each defensive hit would increase OS. If either action was modified by a Hacking program a further +1 OS per action would be incurred.
Turn 2:
Major Action: Matrix Perception to determine if the file has a Data Bomb
Major Action: Disarm Data Bomb
Result: A single net hit would tell us if the file was data bombed, which it was in this case. A single net hit on Disarm Data Bomb removes the data bomb.
OS: +0, as no illegal actions were taken (unless they were modified by a hacking program), and legal admin access was maintained.
Turn 3:
Major Action: Crack File
Major Action: Edit File
Result: File has been decrypted, and we are free to copy it and delete it.
OS: +X defensive hits from Crack File.
Question: Edit File says that "each action is enough to alter one detail of a file"; does this mean that in order to copy the file to your own device and then delete it from the original device you have to take the Edit File action twice?
Anything stand out as wrong or misunderstood?
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Assumption 1: It does appear to me that the intent is there's no action involved in toggling between running silent and not running silent. Also of particular interest to those transitioning from 5e: Running Silent does not impose a -2 dice penalty to Matrix actions anymore.
Assumption 2: Probe is a special variant on the extended test mechanic in that it has no set threshold... you roll against the opposing dice pool and you quit when you feel like you've earned enough net hits. Also note, Probe is an illegal matrix action so every interval you use is jacking up your OS, and that puts a practical limit on how much Probing you can get away with.
Assumption 3: I'd quibble, as hacking in AR is mechanically quite sound, particularly if you have combat drugs or wired reflexes. And you still get to retain use of your body for physical actions intermixed with your hacking ones. however, there's still certainly nothing wrong with assuming a hack might be attempted in VR.
Scenarios 1 & 2: I don't see anything to quibble with.
Scenario 3: I think you'll need two Edit File actions: one to copy the file and the second to delete it off the original device.
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[...]
Assumption 2: Probe is a special variant on the extended test mechanic in that it has no set threshold... you roll against the opposing dice pool and you quit when you feel like you've earned enough net hits. Also note, Probe is an illegal matrix action so every interval you use is jacking up your OS, and that puts a practical limit on how much Probing you can get away with.
Yeah, I'm not quite sure what the intent is for Probe. It seems like you would roll your Cracking + Logic vs Willpower + Firewall; since it's an illegal action, hits on the defense side increases your OS.
However, if I choose to probe some more, do I roll against the same threshold as before, or do we both roll again? Can I even choose to roll again? The fact that it is an extended test with a variable threshold seems to be somewhat unique.
Assumption 3: I'd quibble, as hacking in AR is mechanically quite sound, particularly if you have combat drugs or wired reflexes. And you still get to retain use of your body for physical actions intermixed with your hacking ones. however, there's still certainly nothing wrong with assuming a hack might be attempted in VR.
This is a fair point that I hadn't considered. Since initiative is now normalized across physical, astral, and matrix I agree that AR hacking is equally viable as VR hacking. In fact, I don't really see any particular bonus gained from hacking from VR.
Question 2, I guess: do reaction based initiative enhancers stack with VR initiative enhancers?
For example, if I chose to make a decker with Wired Reflexes 2, a Cyberjack, and a cyberdeck, and I chose to go into hotsim VR, would my initiative be Intuition + Data Processing + 1d6 base + 2d6 Wired Reflexes + 2d6 hotsim VR, for a total of +5d6?
Scenario 3: I think you'll need two Edit File actions: one to copy the file and the second to delete it off the original device.
This is my gut reaction too; this just means that net hits doesn't really matter for this action (and for many Matrix actions this is true, the defensive hits only means you accrue Overwatch and in part determine if you are successful or not).
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Probe is an extended test, yes, but instead of a threshold you're opposed by Firewall x2. So if your first interval ends up with no, or a low number of, net hits, you can reboot to reset OS and try again. And again. Ad infinitum, until you get some number of net hits. For this reason, I'd recommend the GM just buying hits on the opposed roll... keeps the repetitive dice rolling to a minimum. Of course, since it IS still an extended tests, you can push your luck and do successive intervals, to try and get even more and more net hits. (As GM, I'd probably only buy hits on the first interval... if you want to push your luck, let's see how it holds!)
Initiative enhancements: Things like Wired Reflexes and Jazz give you bonuses to Initiative. That works in AR, sure. But VR uses Matrix Initiative, which they don't help with. Same logic with Astral Initiative != Initiative.
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I think Probe is still a little confusing as a result of the way it's worded, honestly.
On one hand, the rules for Extended tests state the following:
Extended tests have a dice pool and a threshold like Simple tests, but the threshold does not have to be met on a single roll (and often can’t be). The player can make multiple rolls of the dice pool, progressively making the dice pool 1 die smaller each time they roll, until they have accumulated enough hits (totaling the hits from all their rolls) to meet or beat the threshold.
If one were to follow this to the letter for Probe, the defender would first roll Willpower + Firewall to determine the threshold. Then, the attacker would roll his Cracking + Logic against the threshold. If they so chose the attacker could continue rolling, taking a -1 dice pool penalty for each successive roll in order to accumulate hits.
Probe never explicitly states that successive attack rolls generate additional defense rolls; it even goes so far as to state that even "if your attempt initially fails", which implies getting 0 net hits (but not glitching or critically glitching). However, if you only roll once to determine the threshold it would seem that a competent decker could rack up a significant amount of net hits to then use on a Backdoor Entry test, at no obvious cost. OS would presumably continue to increase, but again, this is not really laid out in the Matrix Actions chapter, as no other illegal action is an extended test.
I definitely think this could use some clarification from the authors regarding what the intent is. This should either be normal Opposed test with a longer interval, or it should be clarified that as an extended test the defensive roll determines the threshold and X happens to OS if successive attack tests are rolled.
As for initiative; so no double dipping between VR and AR initiative. I think that makes sense. What makes less sense is that VR does not really grant you any obvious benefits, then. Edge actions aren't restricted to VR hacking (nor should it be, in my opinion), but besides an increase to initiative at the cost of complete physical paralysis and risking physical damage it seems like VR hacking should provide some sort of additional benefit.
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I think Probe is still a little confusing as a result of the way it's worded, honestly.
That's fair, because it is an extended test that doesn't follow the rules for extended tests. In the end though: specific trumps general.
If one were to follow this to the letter for Probe, the defender would first roll Willpower + Firewall to determine the threshold...
You're already going down the wrong track. There is NO threshold for Probe. By the letter of the rules, thresholds are given in parenthesis. None is given here. Furthermore, there's very clearly an opposed dice pool given. Therefore, in this specific case only, this extended test has no threshold and has an opposed dice pool instead. Now, as an implication of this specific deviation from the general rules for extended tests, it's completely unclear if the opposing dice pool is also reduced by -1 for each interval. I can't give official answers so you can answer that question how you like.
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Good point. Specific rules do trump general, you're absolutely right.
I think I'll just leave the concept of rolling multiple successive tests of Probe alone and reboot if I don't get a favourable result and try again. Might as well, it's a cleaner option since no alarms are tripped anyway. Thanks!
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I've run through a couple of sample hacks in my spare time, but I wanted to make sure that I'm not making any obvious mistakes. I'd like to run a few scenarios by you as a form of sanity check; I'll do them one at a time so we can discuss anything that comes up separately.
What a great idea! :-)
Running Silent has no associated action
It is resolved with the Change Device Mode Anytime Minor Action
SR6 p. 41 Change Device Mode (A)
character may use a Minor Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that they are linked to by a direct neural interface, be it a wired or wireless link. This includes activating or deactivating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing settings, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on.
The Probe action states that it is an Extended test, and I am assuming that a hacker could continue rolling ...
While this is not explained very well (or at all) I am pretty sure you simply resolve it as a regular Simple Test, but rather than taking a (Minor) or (Major) action the test take 1 minute, or (Extended, 1 Minute) as they put it.
You take the action. Spend 1 minute. Take the test. If the test is successful then you are successful. Note your number of hits. If the test fails then you can start over by taking the Trying Again rule which will impose a negative dice pool of 2 dice per try.
I am pretty sure you resolve Matrix Search in the same manner (but here each test take 10 minutes instead). If you actually were allowed to roll multiple times then it will be super easy to reach 10 hits to find deep secrets others actively try to hide every time (Legwork Results table on SR6 p. 50).
If you compare other actions they too have pantheists after the action and in the pantheists it normally says (Minor) or (Major), but in the case of Probe it instead says (Extended, 1 Minute) and for Matrix Search it instead says (Extended, 10 Minutes).
This is not to be confused with an Extended Test which would have looked something similar to this: "Cracking + Logic vs Willpower + Firewall (10, 1 minute) Extended Test"
Yes, using the word "extended" was a bad call from their side - they should just left out the word "extended" and just put (1 Minute) or (10 Minutes) inside the pantheists.
Additionally, in instances where Backdoor Entry is used I am assuming that a successful Probe has already been performed.
Depending on your reading it will take a full minute to probe the target. In many cases you don't have a full minute and you are forced to loud and take the Brute Force approach instead. Keep that in mind when we later start to compare sneaking vs forcing our way into the network.
Most hackers are likely to be using hot-sim VR as this gives you 1 Major action and 4 Minor actions per turn (potential for 2 Major actions per turn).
Taking physical damage from biofeedback (such as dump shock or black IC) can be quite nasty and going rag doll mode is not always practical (and you can also get a lot of meat world reaction by using adept powers, magic, drugs or augmentations). But yes, many hackers will use hot-sim while they are hacking.
(Fun thing to note; Neither Rigger Control Consoles nor Vehicle Control Rig implants come with hot-sim modded sim modules which are required for hot-sim VR. They didn't in the previous edition, either)
Scenario 1 - Simple Datasteal: Hack a device, find an encrypted file using a known hash, copy it, and then delete it
In this case we are going to go in quietly to avoid detection and accrue as little OS as possible.
If the device is slaved behind a personal area network then it seem as if the probe action (and later also the backdoor entry action) will be opposed by the willpower of the owner and the firewall of the PAN.
If the device is inside the wide area network of a host attended by a security spider decker then it seem as if you are opposed by the willpower of the spider and the firewall of the Host.
If the device is inside a WAN that is not attended then it seem as if you are only opposed by the firewall of the host.
If the device is not part of a network at all but attended by its owner then it seem as if you are only opposed by the willpower rating of the owner.
If the device is not part of a network and also not attended by its owner then it seem as you are not opposed at all.
Major Action - Backdoor Entry
Results: Legal admin access obtained through using Backdoor Entry, which means no +3 Overwatch per turn.
Note that if the device was part of a 'network' then you are now inside that network and you have admin access to everything connected to the entire network(!)
Major Action: Matrix Perception to determine if the file has a Data Bomb
Result: A single net hit would tell us if the file was data bombed, which it was in this case.
It seem as if Matrix Perception in this edition is always opposed?
Depending on your reading it seem as if the data bomb would oppose your matrix perception test using its builder's willpower together with the sleaze rating of the network (if there is one).
On a tie you would spot the bomb
With 1 net hit you would spot the rating of the bomb
With 2 net hits you would gain advanced intel (maybe learn what the bomb is set to do in case it goes off...?)
A single net hit on Disarm Data Bomb removes the data bomb.
Normally you would "win" on a tie.
In this case you seem to need at least 1 net hit (as you correctly noted).
Major Action: Crack File
Result: File has been decrypted, and we are free to copy it and delete it.
Interesting to note that in previous edition this used to be an attack action and a successful attack action used to be immediately obvious for the owner (or the host). This does not seem to be the case in this edition.
...in order to copy the file to your own device and then delete it from the original device you have to take the Edit File action twice?
Yes.
do reaction based initiative enhancers stack with VR initiative enhancers?
No, they only affect your meat world / AR initiative.
To increase your matrix initiative you can for example switch from cold sim to hot sim. As a technomancer getting the Overclocking Echo. You can also increase your data processing rating by using better hardware. Or increase your intuition attribute by using magic or drugs.
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do reaction based initiative enhancers stack with VR initiative enhancers?
No, they only affect your meat world / AR initiative.
+Reaction won't work, but I'm not sure if the rules ban combat drugs, spells or wired reflexes.
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do reaction based initiative enhancers stack with VR initiative enhancers?
No, they only affect your meat world / AR initiative.
+Reaction won't work, but I'm not sure if the rules ban combat drugs, spells or wired reflexes.
Combat Drugs, Spells, Wired Reflexes modify Initiative, not Matrix Initiative so won't help in VR. Certainly would increase your AR options though.
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So then why do they apply on AR Initiative, when that is part of Matrix Initiative?
Note: I stated I'm not sure because I don't know the precise rules here. Just statements do not suffice.
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Because AR initiative IS your meat world initiative...
But yes, it was confusing in SR5 as well.
It was asked and answered on this very forum years ago.
(the rules clarification thread perhaps)
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Away from books, so if 6E split Matrix AR Initiative out from regular Initiative it's a change I missed. And I have a series of follow up questions, because that's a mess. The default assumption is that characters are in AR most of the time.
AFAIK, Initiative covers Meat space (which includes AR), Astral Initiative is Astral, Matrix Initiative would be Hot SIM VR or Cold SIM VR.
Edit: Ninja'd by Xenon
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Phear my search skills:
Q Do Wired Reflexes 1 add +1d6 Initiative Dice even if you are using astral projecting, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR (to a maximum of total 5d6 Initiative Dice)?
No.
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A lot of great points, Xenon, thank you for contributing.
Change Device Mode makes sense for running silent.
The probe action we've discussed some more since the OP; definitely in need of clarification on extended vs Extended tests
Probe and Backdoor Entry vs Brute Force is something I wanted to save for scenario 2; cybercombat will be 3. I wanted to make sure we could discuss the intricacies of each scenario in detail before moving on to the next one :)
On defenses; fortunately, the Errata document cleared up the differences between when to use which attributes for defense, so this is pretty straight forward.
Does hacking a device slaved to a PAN give you Admin access to the PAN? I'm not sure I've drawn that conclusion. Care to elaborate?
I'm tempted to not apply any previous edition FAQs to SR5, for what it's worth, just because so many things have changed and because I, like many others, never even played 5th. For guidance on RAI at your table? Sure. But for new people, to Shadowrun as a whole or to 6th Edition? Eeeh, not sure that's a great idea.
I will say that I think the distinction between "Matrix" Initiative and regular upper case Initiative is blurred more in 6th Edition than it ever has been before. The fact that all actions, whether physical, matrix, and/or astral, all happen in real-time (i.e. on the same game clock), coupled with the fact that initiative right now is not very clearly defined as distinct and bespoke systems, definitely open the door for alternative readings that contradicts well-established doctrine from previous editions.
And just so I make myself clear; I am not staying that the rules say X or Y, just that depending on your frame of reference it could be interpreted differently, and that I think some clarification on how initiative is intended to work (from the authors) in the form of an FAQ would be highly appreciated.
For now, I'll personally err on the side of caution and separate Matrix, Astral, and Combat/Physical/Initiative (capital I) from each other.
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Away from books, so if 6E split Matrix AR Initiative out from regular Initiative it's a change I missed. And I have a series of follow up questions, because that's a mess. The default assumption is that characters are in AR most of the time.
Actually, I think you’re correct. It’s possible to read the CRB and come away thinking that meatspace initiative and AR initiative are different numbers, and augments only change the former. I’m quite sure it’s not RAI but the wording isn’t crystal clear.
Page 179
Matrix Initiative
Matrix Initiative is handled as follows (note that the dice are in addition to the customary 1D6, and the maximum of 5D6 Initiative Dice applies):
• AR Initiative: Reaction + Intuition
• VR Initiative (Cold Sim): Intuition + Data Processing + 1D6
• VR Initiative (Hot Sim): Intuition + Data Processing + 2D6
Page 287
When ac-tivated, each rating point of wired reflexes gives you +1 Reaction (and accompanying bonus to your Initiative Score), 1 additional Initiative Die, and 1 additional Minor Action. Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reac-tion or Initiative.
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Phear my search skills:
Q Do Wired Reflexes 1 add +1d6 Initiative Dice even if you are using astral projecting, cold-sim VR or hot-sim VR (to a maximum of total 5d6 Initiative Dice)?
No.
This was also the edition where Aaron claimed Headjammers literally could not do what their description said they were made for, which SR6 explicitly fixed. So unfortunately an SR5 quote that was never made official doesn't suffice for SR6.
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This was also the edition where Aaron claimed Headjammers literally could not do what their description said they were made for, which SR6 explicitly fixed. So unfortunately an SR5 quote that was never made official doesn't suffice for SR6.
Are you seriously arguing that wired reflexes should affect astral/VR initiative?
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Ok, couple of things to address but for the most part you can refer to SSDR as being right, but ...
First point, if you're hacking either with backdoor or brute force you never gain legal access of any kind.
Second, yes probe is extended, and no there is not a threshold. Other than a set threshold it works just like any other extended test so yes the dice pool reduce for each roll for the hacker but not the opposition. The reason for this is to allow the hacker to push their luck of they choose at the expense of diminishing returns or choose to stop anytime
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if you're hacking either with backdoor or brute force you never gain legal access of any kind.
SR6 p. 180 Backdoor Entry
If the test is successful, you gain Admin access to the target, and it does not count as illegal Admin access (though taking illegal Matrix Actions will still increase your Overwatch Score).
Second, yes probe is extended, and no there is not a threshold. Other than a set threshold it works just like any other extended test so yes the dice pool reduce for each roll for the hacker but not the opposition.
Huh.... Interesting.
You sure it is not a simple test that just take 1 minute to complete (because that would make so much more sense than what you just said).
If it is resolved as an extended test then I get to reroll many many times. If just a single test end up tie or better then the probe will be successful. Any extra hits on any of the tests will act as bonus when I later take my backdoor test.
And if it is resolved as an extended test then also Matrix Search will be resolved as an extended test. Since this is not even an opposed test it will be crazy easy to always find the most obscure intel in the entire matrix (reach 10 hits on the Legwork table). Every single time.
The reason for this is to allow the hacker to push their luck of they choose at the expense of diminishing returns or choose to stop anytime.
How is it pushing their luck?
It is virtually impossible to fail getting at least one single tie on all your rolls...?
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Let's say you're hacking a host with Firewall 9. 18 dice are coming against you each time you probe, which is on average 6 hits, so you need 7 just to get 1 net hit. And your OS went up by 6.
Do that however many times you like, with a smaller dice pool each time... that's pushing your luck!
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Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.
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Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.
You still get OS from each interval of Probe, however.
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Yes, but that's the opposed test, not this bit:
Maintaining illegal access to anything on the
Matrix: +1 OS/round for each host where
you maintain illegal User-level access, +3
OS/round for each host where you maintain
illegal Admin-level access.
So the way I read it, a successful Backdoor Entry after a successful Probe will still give you OS from the opposed hits, but you won't be gaining OS like crazy and can take your time snooping around without Convergence. It doesn't mean you're full-legal though.
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Yeah. But you can dance with convergence just from Probing a few times, so it's a damn good thing you can potentially get access w/o turn by turn OS hikes.
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Let's say you're hacking a host with Firewall 9. 18 dice are coming against you each time you probe, which is on average 6 hits, so you need 7 just to get 1 net hit. And your OS went up by 6.
Do that however many times you like, with a smaller dice pool each time... that's pushing your luck!
I just need to tie. Once. That is super easy compared how hard the actual Backdoor Entry test or Edit File test will be later once you gained access to the host.
And for matrix search I just need to get a total of 10 hits to find the most obscure information there is. Say I have a pool of 16 dice or so. That give me a total dice pool of.... 136 dice. Which mean that even if I buy hits with a 1:4 ratio I will still end up with a bit more than 30 net hits.
Also look at how Matrix tests are listed, which format they have:
(Legal or Illegal) Skill + Linked Attribute vs. Opposed Test (Duration)
For example:
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall (Major)
(legal) No test (Minor)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic (4) (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Encryption Rating x 2 (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Device Rating (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major)
(legal) Electronics + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Major)
Probe and Matrix search seem to follow the same pattern, just that the duration is 1 minute or 10 minutes.
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (Extended, 10 Minutes)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Extended, 1 Minute)
Compare this to "proper" extended tests:
Charisma + Magic (10 – target’s Essence, 1 minute) Extended test.
Magic + Intuition (5, 10 minutes) Extended test
Magic + Willpower (10, 30 minutes) Extended Test
Engineering + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended test
Engineering + Agility (lock rating x 2, 1 combat round) Extended test.
Biotech + Logic (10, 1 minute) Extended test
I refuse to think this is intended :-)
Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.
Yeah. I think when it says it does not count as illegal admin access that they are talking about this:
SR6 p. 176 Overwatch Score and convergence
Maintaining illegal access to anything on the Matrix: +1 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal User-level access, +3 OS/round for each host where you maintain illegal Admin-level access
Not counting as illegal Admin Access simply would mean your OS doesn't keep going up, I think. Doesn't mean you're suddenly a full-legal user.
You still get OS from each interval of Probe, however.
That is why you reboot between your probing "extended" test and your backdoor entry test.....
You keep ninja adding more posts while I am editing. Fuck it. I'll just post now. :D
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Yes like MC says... not counting as illegal access (for OS purposes) is not the same as legal access .. minor point but still an important one
And as SSDR says when your dice pool is dropping every roll but the opposition isn't then your chance of success is dropping while also increasing your OS score and chance of glitching all in exchange for more successes to use on the future backdoor attempt... that's pushing your luck
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Fair enough.
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Let's say you're hacking a host with Firewall 9. 18 dice are coming against you each time you probe, which is on average 6 hits, so you need 7 just to get 1 net hit. And your OS went up by 6.
Do that however many times you like, with a smaller dice pool each time... that's pushing your luck!
I just need to tie. Once. That is super easy compared how hard the actual Backdoor Entry test or Edit File test will be later once you gained access to the host.
And for matrix search I just need to get a total of 10 hits to find the most obscure information there is. Say I have a pool of 16 dice or so. That give me a total dice pool of.... 136 dice. Which mean that even if I buy hits with a 1:4 ratio I will still end up with a bit more than 30 net hits.
I feel like we're not talking about the same thing. On Probe, your net hits are represented as a dice pool bonus to a Back Door test which may occur at some point a few hours hence. If you tie, ok you're successful sure but your bonus is a +0 dice. Not too helpful.
And I have no idea what you're talking about with Matrix Perception. I can't imagine how 16 dice are turning into 136 dice, nor how Matrix Perception factors into Probe in the first place.
Also look at how Matrix tests are listed, which format they have:
(Legal or Illegal) Skill + Linked Attribute vs. Opposed Test (Duration)
For example:
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall (Major)
(legal) No test (Minor)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic (4) (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Encryption Rating x 2 (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Device Rating (Major)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major)
(legal) Electronics + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Major)
Probe and Matrix search seem to follow the same pattern, just that the duration is 1 minute or 10 minutes.
(legal) Electronics + Intuition (Extended, 10 Minutes)
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2 (Extended, 1 Minute)
Compare this to "proper" extended tests:
Charisma + Magic (10 – target’s Essence, 1 minute) Extended test.
Magic + Intuition (5, 10 minutes) Extended test
Magic + Willpower (10, 30 minutes) Extended Test
Engineering + Logic (10, 1 hour) Extended test
Engineering + Agility (lock rating x 2, 1 combat round) Extended test.
Biotech + Logic (10, 1 minute) Extended test
I refuse to think this is intended :-)
You don't have to. But the guy who literally wrote the rule just said as much.
You still get OS from each interval of Probe, however.
That is why you reboot between your probing "extended" test and your backdoor entry test.....
That's actually a fair point. I hadn't noticed that Probe doesn't say your benefit goes away if you reboot. All the more reason then for a nice big dice pool to keep you from racking up a ridiculous number of net hits.
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On Probe, your net hits are represented as a dice pool bonus to a Back Door test which may occur at some point a few hours hence.
The main point of the probe action is to successfully find an exploit to begin with. This is what takes time. And to be successful you only need a tie.
I agree that additional net hits will act as bonus dice on your backdoor entry test later (which might be useful) and since the test is resolved as an extended test you might as well keep rolling as long as you don't hit 40 OS.
And I have no idea what you're talking about with Matrix Perception. I can't imagine how 16 dice are turning into 136 dice, nor how Matrix Perception factors into Probe in the first place.
There are only two actions in the entire book that have the format (Extended, x Minutes)
One action is Probe
The other is Matrix Search (not Matrix Perception).
Matrix Search have nothing to do with gaining illegal access to a host, but if the Probe action is really resolved as an Extended Test then so is Matrix Search action.
Matrix Search is not opposed. You just count net hits and compare it to the Legwork table on p. 50
If I have a dice pool of 13 dice then I will in practice have a dice pool of... 91 dice
First attempt 13 dice
Second attempt 12 dice
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Since this is a legal action there is no risk of convergence so I might as well always roll 13 times (or 91 dice) when using matrix search.
Buying hits on 91 dice give me little more than 20 hits. Twice as much as I need to find deep secrets others actively try to hide and other rare knowledge only available to a select few. I will always get 10 hits. Every Single. Time.
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On Probe, your net hits are represented as a dice pool bonus to a Back Door test which may occur at some point a few hours hence.
The main point of the probe action is to successfully find an exploit to begin with. This is what takes time. And to be successful you only need a tie.
I agree that additional net hits will act as bonus dice on your backdoor entry test later (which might be useful) and since the test is resolved as an extended test you might as well keep rolling as long as you don't hit 40 OS.
But if your total net hits are 0, then the Probe mechanically still gives you no actual benefit. Are you thinking there's a benefit to Probe beyond giving you bonus dice to a Backdoor Entry test?
And I have no idea what you're talking about with Matrix Perception. I can't imagine how 16 dice are turning into 136 dice, nor how Matrix Perception factors into Probe in the first place.
There are only two actions in the entire book that have the format (Extended, x Minutes)
One action is Probe
The other is Matrix Search (not Matrix Perception).
Matrix Search have nothing to do with gaining illegal access to a host, but if the Probe action is really resolved as an Extended Test then so is Matrix Search action.
Matrix Search is not opposed. You just count net hits and compare it to the Legwork table on p. 70
If I have a dice pool of 13 dice then I will in practice have a dice pool of... 91 dice
First attempt 13 dice
Second attempt 12 dice
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
Since this is a legal action there is no risk of convergence so I might as well always roll 13 times (or 91 dice) when using matrix search.
Buying hits on 91 dice give me little more than 20 hits. Twice as much as I need to find deep secrets others actively try to hide and other rare knowledge only available to a select few. I will always get 10 hits. Every Single. Time.
And again, the Host is rolling Firewall x2 against you in each interval of the Probe. And as Banshee indicated, the intent is that the Host's pool is NOT reducing each interval, even though yours is. You roll X Dice vs Fx2. You might get zero, or less than zero, net hits. Next interval is X-1 vs Fx2. After that X-2 vs Fx2. Just because you can buy 20 hit doesn't mean you're buying 20 NET hits.
Example, Probing a Firewall 9 Host, you have 16 dice:
Interval 1: your 16 dice results in a lucky 10 hits. Maybe you spent edge or something. Host gets an average result of 6 on 18 dice, you have net 4 hits. You can sit on that and be happy, or push your luck.
Interval 2: your 15 dice results in a more average result of 5 hits. Host again gets an perfectly average result of 6. Lol. A "net success" of -1. You're down to 3 net hits now. Press your luck, or be happy?
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But if your total net hits are 0, then the Probe mechanically still gives you no actual benefit. Are you thinking there's a benefit to Probe beyond giving you bonus dice to a Backdoor Entry test?
You need to take a successful probe action (at least score a tie) before you can even attempt a backdoor entry action in the first place.
You might get zero, or less than zero, net hits.
Wait? Are you saying that if host get 2 more hits than me on the first attempt and we tie on the second I still need to get at least two hits to even reach a tie? This also mean that if you are at negative net hits by your third attempt you might as well just give up and start over. Even when applying Trying Again you will at least be in a better situation. This is quickly become one the strangest extended test I ever seen..... This test probably need a chapter of its own just to clarify how you resolve it :D
Just because you can buy 20 hit doesn't mean you're buying 20 NET hits.
Note that I was talking about Matrix Search here. Not Probe.
Matrix Search is using the same Extended test mechanic as Probe
But Matrix Search is not an "Opposed" Extended Test.
Matrix Search just count hits. There is no host opposing Matrix Search.
It is also not an illegal action which mean there will be no overwatch score. Before you reached 10 hits on the Legwork Table on p. 50 there is also no reason to not keep rolling (other than perhaps the fact each that new roll "cost" 10 minutes).
I refuse to think this is intended :-)
You don't have to. But the guy who literally wrote the rule just said as much.
To be honest I still seriously think that the format of the action and the rules in general make a lot more sense if the test is resolved as a regular single opposed test that just have a one minute duration (and even more so that Matrix Search is resolved as a single simple test that have a 10 minute duration).
But Banshee was pretty clear on the matter. I will respect his response. No problem :)
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It's probably in the spirit of Banshee's intent that a result of less than zero just counts as zero for your running total. Otherwise it just gets weird if you start off with a terrible result you'll never dig out of and want to "start over".
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Actually it is part of the push your luck aspect of the probe ... if you fail at any point you lose your progress and have to start over .. if you take the time to log off and rest there is practically no fallout except for the time spent but still it is still a factor of at what point do you go for it or not
And not that it matters now but the original duration on probe was an hour so that's a lot of time to lose
As for the matrix search ... I feel that is a case where wites got crossed and really should just be a simple test that takes longer than a single action
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A lot to take in over the last few pages. A couple of notes for my own benefit:
1. Probe as an extended test could benefit greatly from a designer's note, perhaps in a larger FAQ document
I do not believe that Errata is needed for this topic as there aren't really any mistakes per se, but the fact that we now have over two pages of discussions mostly revolving around how to resolve Probe as an extended test should provide ample proof that the rules as written entry is not inherently clear. That being said, thank you to Banshee in particular for chiming in; as always, your input is greatly appreciated!
Conclusion: As per Banshee, Probe can be performed as an Extended test without a threshold; the opposed roll is made for each attempted Probe action and determines the threshold for that specific test. Subsequent tests will incur a -1 dice pool penalty on the attacker, but not on the defender.
2. Matrix Search could benefit from clarification, a re-write, or house ruling
As Xenon points out, and Banshee alludes to, Matrix Search is in an odd position. As a non-opposed Extended test with no threshold, a player character could quite easily obtain enough hits to exceed the highest threshold for information on the Legwork Results table that the action itself refers to. While GM fiat/house rules could easily be implemented to make it more difficult to find deep, dark secrets, this does not alter the fact that the rules for Matrix Search is potentially a mistake or oversight.
Conclusion: Something for the change blindness thread, perhaps? Not sure if this qualifies as errata, per se.
On a personal note, I think Probe and Matrix Search would both have been better off as a simple or opposed tests; there is precedent for simple tests with duration greater than a Major Action; Medkit Healing comes to mind as an obvious example of this. The current hybrid approach of an extended/opposed or extended/non-opposed with no threshold test is, as far as I can tell, unique.
3. The lines between Initiative, Matrix Initiative (both AR and VR), and Astral Initiative are somewhat blurred and could benefit from a designer's note.
With all actions (physical, astral, and Matrix) happening simultaneously in one unified initiative system, it seems obvious that questions will arise regarding how the various initiative systems combine, whether they are in fact discreet systems at all, and what the intent is regarding various initiative boosters and their interactions with each other.
Conclusion: While 'ware and adept powers explicitly state that they do not stack with other initiative boosters, drugs and the Increase Reflexes spell do not. It is, however, highly likely that the intent is for these systems to be separate, otherwise you end up with odd interactions like wired reflexes affecting your initiative in the Matrix or the Astral.
4. Legal Admin access
This one is my bad; I should have more clearly defined that I was talking about "illegal admin access that does not count as such for the purposes of accruing overwatch score". It was just less cumbersome to write "legal admin access" is all. While I think the distinction is purely semantics from a game mechanics perspective (having legal admin access to your own device does not alter the legality of illegal Matrix actions you would make with said access), I agree that it is worth making the distinction from a conceptual point of view.
Conclusion: There is no such thing as hacking your way to legal admin access. Successful Probe and Backdoor Entry actions instead yields illegal admin access that does not count for overwatch purposes.
Before I move on to the next scenario I do want to question this particular statement by Banshee:
[...] if you fail at any point you lose your progress and have to start over [...]
While this may have been your intent while writing the rule, it does not seem to be supported by the text of the current rules implementation. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by "if you fail at any point"?
Here is the first paragraph of the Probe action:
You probe a device for weaknesses, looking to gain access. You take your time not to alert any security to your presence, and you can create an exploit that may last until you are ready to use it. While not as fast as using Brute Force, Probing a device does not raise an alarm automatically. Even if your attempt initially fails, it will not trigger an alarm unless major mistakes are made. Systems and devices will not detect your presence until you have gained access to them. By Probing a device, you can create a lasting backdoor to the system.
I've emphasized what I think is the most relevant section; this clearly states that even if you fail (i.e. achieve no hits) an alarm is not triggered. The rule as written does not mention losing progress you may have made during preceding Probe attempts in any way, and neither do the the core rules for Extended tests mention anything about reversing existing progress.
I could certainly see a glitch (and especially a critical glitch) causing your Probe to fail, or for previous progress to have been reversed, but I think we need to more clearly define what you mean when you say "failure" compared to what the rule itself considers as such.
Again, thank you to all who've contributed so far. It's been illuminating. Tomorrow I'll tackle my next practice scenario: Brute Force, Data Bombs, and Format/Reboot Device.
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On a personal note, I think Probe and Matrix Search would both have been better off as a simple or opposed tests; there is precedent for simple tests with duration greater than a Major Action; Medkit Healing comes to mind as an obvious example of this. The current hybrid approach of an extended/opposed or extended/non-opposed with no threshold test is, as far as I can tell, unique.
I agree.
Rather than introducing a completely unique and unprecedented "extended-opposed-test-without-threshold"-mechanic that is not used anywhere and not described anywhere in the book it would be a lot more streamlined, easier to understand and easier to explain for new players if the test was just a regular opposed test that take a minute to complete. That would also mean that matrix search would be a regular simple test that take ten minutes to complete and where net hits from the test is used on the legwork table directly. It also does not seem to require any errata at all. Smooth.
Here is the first paragraph of the Probe action:
You probe a device for weaknesses, looking to gain access. You take your time not to alert any security to your presence, and you can create an exploit that may last until you are ready to use it. While not as fast as using Brute Force, Probing a device does not raise an alarm automatically. Even if your attempt initially fails, it will not trigger an alarm unless major mistakes are made. Systems and devices will not detect your presence until you have gained access to them. By Probing a device, you can create a lasting backdoor to the system.
Just wanted to note that even this would fit well if probe was just a regular opposed test with a duration of 10 minutes as if you failed your initial attempt to probe you will not trigger an alarm and you may immediately spend another 10 minutes using Trying Again (or wait a few hours, or even until the next day, to attempt again with a full dice pool).
Again, thank you to all who've contributed so far. It's been illuminating. Tomorrow I'll tackle my next practice scenario: Brute Force, Data Bombs, and Format/Reboot Device.
No, thank you!
Keep them coming. I love dissecting matrix scenario threads :-)
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Not all information you can find with a Matrix Search, some things people know but aren't available in the public grid. Keep in mind that anything inside corporate Hosts will be off-limits, and people often keep things offline too. So honestly, I don't see the problem in that if you dig long enough, you can discover everything that's publicly available. You still won't get everything. Compared to the SR5 system, it's much more friendly to the hackers.
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We were actually discussing this recently and will be addressed in the FAQ, sovyes I fully agree it comes across as too vague.
Couple of things that came up during that discussion that particularly pertains here. When you fail at any single point during a probe action you lose all progress and have to start over, but only a glitch would actually raise an alarm. That means you also lose any net gained on previous checks in the test ... that's part of the risk. Also of particular note that if you log off and reset you also lose and progress and have to start over.
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We were actually discussing this recently and will be addressed in the FAQ, sovyes I fully agree it comes across as too vague.
Couple of things that came up during that discussion that particularly pertains here. When you fail at any single point during a probe action you lose all progress and have to start over, but only a glitch would actually raise an alarm. That means you also lose any net gained on previous checks in the test ... that's part of the risk. Also of particular note that if you log off and reset you also lose and progress and have to start over.
Thanks!
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Another day, another scenario.
Scenario 2 - Seek & Destroy: Hack a device and disable it.
This time we're going in guns blazing; the target of our hack is a street samurai's cybereyes, and our goal is to blind them to stop them from attacking our friends.
Right off the bat we have two choices; go with Data Spike to damage the hardware, or use Brute Force and Format Device/Reboot Device or Control Device. I'll split these up in three sub-scenarios, because I think there are some important variables to consider. A few assumptions will be made that are common to all three scenarios:
Assumption 1: The cybereyes are wirelessly enabled. Obviously, the hack won't work without this core foundation.
Personal note: I can't actually find a reason why you would run your eyes wirelessly. There are no bonuses to be gained but many obvious risks, so from a game mechanics perspective why would a PC ever do this?
Assumption 2: The cybereyes are slaved to the samurai's PAN, and are Rating 4.
While not explicitly specified, we can (safely?) assume that the Rating of the eyes are equal to their Device Rating, which is used to determine their Matrix Condition Monitor. In this case, DR/2 + 8, for 10.
Assumption 3: The hacker has enough initiative for 1 Major Action and 4 Minor Actions
Whether through hot-sim VR or AR with initiative boosters, we just need the +3d6 total dice to get here.
Question 1: If the eyes were not slaved to a PAN, what would their Firewall be? Would the owner still apply their Willpower to defend against a data spike, for example, or just the device rating?
Scenario 2.1: Raw Matrix Damage
Turn 1:
Major Action: Data Spike
Major Action: Data Spike
Result: The Matrix attributes of the hacker will determine Matrix damage. The cheapest deck has A/F 4/3 while the most expensive is 9/8, and base DV is Attack/2 so base DV will range from 2 to 5. Causing enough damage to brick the device in a single attack is mathematically improbable; modified DV would need to be 11+ in order for enough damage to be inflicted assuming a Willpower of 3 for one probable success on the damage resist test. This means you would need 6+ net hits on the attack test.
However, with 2 attack actions your base DV is 5+ net hits - damage resistance; even a mere 2 net hits will be enough to brick most device rating 4 or lower devices.
Action economy: Possible, though improbable to accomplish in a single Major action. Usage of Overclock and Fork exponentially increases odds of success as well as action economy.
OS: No user or admin access required; 1-2 illegal actions performed so +X from defense tests, and most likely modified by hacking programs for additional +2. Even with Fork, you could potentially perform this routine 6-10 times before your overwatch reaches the high 30s (average 1 defensive hit per 3 dice, +1 per action, +1 per action modified by hacking program for 3-5 per attack on average against Willpower 3 + Firewall 2).
Pros: Device is permanently bricked until repairs can be performed. OS accrued is relatively low, as no user or admin access is required. Action economy is good, especially if Fork is used.
Cons: If the device/PAN is running Biofeedback Filter, this can (somewhat oddly) be used to resist Matrix Damage; a troll could more easily resist the damage inflicted this way
I personally think this is a mistake in the description of Biofeedback Filter; it seems more likely that this should only be applicable when Biofeedback damage is inflicted (stun or physical), and not generic Matrix damage
Scenario 2.2: Format Device
Turn 1:
Major Action: Brute Force
Major Action: Format Device
Turn 2:
Major Action: Reboot Device
Result: The device "loses all wireless modifiers but can still be used as a normal mechanism". It is unclear what this means, precisely; the examples are a door handle can still be operated manually, and a gun with a trigger can be fired. In this case we are dealing with cybereyes with no wireless modifiers, but if "shuts down for good" doesn't mean that the eyes are no longer working then this whole scenario is moot.
OS: +3 after turn 1 for illegal admin access, +X for defensive hits, +1 per illegal action, +1 per action modified by a hacking program. With three actions over two turns needed, you're looking at at least 6+X+1+(3) for a minimum of 10 (Format and Reboot Device are both legal actions)
Pros: None?
Cons: The ambiguity of what exactly "format device" does and what "wireless modifiers" actually pushes this option solidly into GM fiat territory. Action economy is worse than just flat out bricking the device, and you are more likely to accrue more OS as a result of having to gain illegal Admin access and spend more actions which means higher potential for defensive hits.
Scenario 2.3: Format Device
Turn 1:
Major Action: Brute Force
Major Action: Control Device
Result: Control Device states that one of it's uses is "including turning the device off if you have Admin access". However, no action is given for what it takes to turn a device back on; Reboot Device gives us an indication that when a device reboots it "comes back online at the end of the following combat round". Potentially, then, this action could be used to turn off a device which forces the opposition to spend actions (minor or major may be up to GM?) to turn it back on, and then wait for the end of the following turn before the device is actually back.
OS: +3 for illegal admin access for one round, +x for defensive hits, +1 for illegal action, +1 per action modified by hacking programs.
Pros: Action economy is similar to bricking the device with data spike; may force opponents to spend their own actions to react (controlling the flow of an encounter)
Cons: Results are non-permanent
Overall conclusion: this type of scenario has actually made me appreciate Data Spike for it's beautiful simplicity. It's direct, it's aggressive, and it cannot easily be reversed once enough permanent damage has been inflicted.
Of the three, I think format device has the least immediate use in a combat encounter, but I could see other uses for this action that are more insidious (most often used with Probe and Backdoor Entry so the hack isn't immediately obvious; hack a bunch of guards' commlinks and set them to format when they reboot in the hopes that they do so during a guard shift, for example).
Control Device deserves an honorary mention; I think the ability to force your opponents to react to you instead of taking the initiative can be quite invaluable. Unfortunately, this relies heavily on GM interpretation of the Matrix at a conceptual level, as using Control Device to crash a car off a cliff or eject smargun clips or any other action you can think of depends on your GM's decisions for how exactly this impacts the game world.
Question 2: One option I did not explore was using a data bomb; unfortunately, I'm just not sure what kind of options can be used here. For example, could I data bomb a smartgun so that when someone uses the targeting data the bomb goes off unless the correct code is supplied first? I could see all kinds of hilarious uses of this, but even more so than Control Device the interpretation for "what constitutes reading a file" is made entirely up to the GM.
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Just replying to the Data Spike portion in this post:
Assumption 1: Smartlink would be the most likely reason. You could run a cable from your eye to the gun perhaps, but that looks funny. Likewise, if you have obvious cybereyes yet they're not broadcasting on the matrix, security might see that as suspicious. Of course, if you wanted to be in AR, your eyes would have to be wirelessly enabled as well or else your image link won't be giving you any visual AROs.
Assumption 2: I don't think it's safe assumption at all that Rating corresponds to Device Rating. It's an unfortunate omission that suggested Device Ratings was left out, but still I'd recommend using 5e's yardsticks until such time 6we gives something explicitly different. So, the cybereyes should (IMO) have Device Ratings compared to their grade rather than rating. Probably DR 2 for standard grade.
Question 1: no firewall stated = Firewall 0. Pays to protect stuff you don't want hacked. Or, like you opined, turn the wireless off if at all feasible.
I don't see anything to quibble about on the mathemetics on the Data Spike. Although I do want to point out that in 6we there's a very important new aspect to Matrix damage: it applies penalties. So if you Data Spike say a gun or drone, and only do 6 damage, you may not have bricked it but you're still imposing -2 dice from the damage! Harder to say what -2 dice to using Cybereyes would mean, but surely it'd at least apply its penalty to Perception tests.
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Because it's happened twice, I'd like to do a math correction on buying hits with an extended dice pool.
13 dice is an extended dice pool of 91 dice. It it is 3+3+2+2+2+2+1+1+1+1+0+0+0 = 18 purchased hits At 4:1, not "over 20".
Mind, it's still a lot. But the difference could wind up mattering.
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Given glitch chances which are bad for extended tests, it's unlikely people risk the low pools anyway, since at that point the GM might decide a roll is required due to glitch chances. But yeah, 1 hour will indeed net you 14 hits anyway if you're buying with a pool of 13. Buying with a pool of 12 will still net you 12 hits in 1 hour. At 11, you can reach the important 10 in 1 hour by buying.
A small asides: At 7 dice, glitch-chances are 1/57 and crit-glitch 1/244. Those are still passable odds. At 5 dice we're at 1/28 and 1/74, so the chances your GM wants an actual roll go up.
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My point was that you will reach 10 hits easy. Every. Single. Time. Not really to focus on the math. Having said that, with 13 dice (which is not that much to be honest) you will most likely reach 10 hits after 40 minutes. Even if you buy hits.
On phone so my formatting will probably suck. Will comment on items in order. One by one.
The device rating table is missing in SR6, but at least in SR5 the device rating of augmentations were tied to grade (alpha, beta, delta etc) which was used for things like matrix condition boxes.
A reason to keep your eyes wireless enabled and working in concert with DNI and a wireless enabled smartgun is to gain a positive dice pool modifier to your firearms skill.
In previous edition device rating was generally equal to firewall. In this edition devices generally don't have a firewall at all, unless they are protected by a network.
Fork let you attack two icons with one major action. It does not let you attack the same icon twice.
(Scenario 2.3 description is a copy pasta mistake from 2.2)
Not at book but to turn augmentation that are connected via neutral interface (not to be confused with DNI) used to be a free action, and in this edition it is probably a minor (probably the Switch Device Mode Anytime Action)..
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Let me ask: Is it a problem a Decker can basically find anything that is located online in publicly accessable places, as long as they take their time for it? Basically, should this be foremost a matter of time and secondarily a matter of skill, or solely a matter of skill?
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Let me ask: Is it a problem a Decker can basically find anything that is located online in publicly accessable places, as long as they take their time for it? Basically, should this be foremost a matter of time and secondarily a matter of skill, or solely a matter of skill?
Yes, it's a problem, on several levels.
First of all, 10 hits on a legwork test is a very different result if deckers can do extended tests against it but everyone else is doing one-off tests against the same table. It makes deckers superpowered-unbalanced at legwork. It seems clear to me that different archetypes should be on an equal footing when rolling against that table.
In fact, let me go one stage further. A normal Legwork test is through a contact and rolls a dice pool of Connection Rating x2. Connection rating maxes out at 12, which is a "famous person who regularly shows up on the news." So Jonny Spinrad rolls 24 dice to find something out, but a mediocre decker rolls 90+ dice? Nope. Doesn't make sense.
Secondly, look at some of the descriptions of levels in the legwork test:
5 hits - Deep academic familiarity, strong professional knowledge, behind-the-scenes familiarity
6 hits - Knowledge of secrets and hidden information
7 hits - High-level information, solid understanding of history
8 hits - Almost encyclopedic knowledge, including some deep secrets
9 hits - Rare knowledge only available to a select few
10 hits - Deep secrets others actively try to hide
As you've argued recently:
The bigger your site, the more likely your employees have to interact with the outside. So almost everything will be online. And as for security systems: Most places cannot afford a spider, so one spider covers multiple locations, just following up on alarms and doing the occasional patrol.
Taken together, the idea that any decker with a mediocre dicepool and an hour to burn can turn up unlimited numbers of "deep secrets others actively try to hide" about basically anything -- because "almost everything will be online" -- is a bit game-breaking, no?
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Assuming that 10 net hits on a Matrix Search will always yield full value on legwork is a bad assumption because it is assuming that such a level of information is actually available that way. Just because the scale goes that high does not mean the amount of information available is also that high. It is very possible, and reasonable, that the publicly available information on the Matrix is much, much lower. In fact, it should be unless the GM is, to be rather blunt about this, a complete idiot or exceptionally lazy and just wants to get to the part where the PC’s shoot stuff.
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Assuming that 10 net hits on a Matrix Search will always yield full value on legwork is a bad assumption because it is assuming that such a level of information is actually available that way.
Should 10 hits on a legwork roll via the Matrix turn up the same value of information as 10 hits on a legwork roll via a contact?
I submit they should.
And the way to fix this is to not have deckers rolling 10x more legwork dice than other game mechanics. It’s clearly out of kilter with the rest of the game.
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“We have this super secret site where we do really sketchy stuff, so let’s put all of our information out there for any skilled computer user to find in an hour and take advantage of because this is a really good idea” said no exec ever. Even the dumbest of low level managers is smart enough to know this is idiotic. Just because the scale goes that high does not mean that the publicly available information also goes that high. This is, quite honestly, only a problem if you want it to be a problem. A far more reasonable person will just acknowledge that no matter how good the hacker is, they aren’t going to find any real information about alien space ships at Area 51 on the Internet because Area 51’s most important information isn’t even ON the Internet. Non-existent problem solved!
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Assuming that 10 net hits on a Matrix Search will always yield full value on legwork is a bad assumption because it is assuming that such a level of information is actually available that way.
Should 10 hits on a legwork roll via the Matrix turn up the same value of information as 10 hits on a legwork roll via a contact?
I submit they should.
And the way to fix this is to not have deckers rolling 10x more legwork dice than other game mechanics. It’s clearly out of kilter with the rest of the game.
I would say absolutely not, a matrix search should never be a simple replacement for legwork. It should only augment legwork. A matrix search doesn't represent much more than a Google search which can uncover quite a bit, but is still no replacement for actually talking to people. There should always be information that is not available online. That's why published legwork tables have different thresholds for different information and not all of it is available via the matrix
EDIT: also to add.. getting deep dark secrets from the matrix should be a matrix run involving getting inside a defended host and not a search at all
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Beyond the silliness of assuming such high level information is out there just to grab easy as you please, there is also an assumption here that the GM will let you just keep buying hits. The roll has meaningful consequences to the outcome of the game. It is not one that should get free hits. This is a check that absolutely should be rolled to its conclusion. At some point, if you keep digging, you’re going to risk screwing it up badly and that is also a meaningful consequence. There are far more reasons to require rolls than to just give away all the secrets. Any GM who does that is either inexperienced, lazy, or stupid.
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Matrix Search itself notes it only applies to information that is available on "the publicly accessible grid". When a Contact rolls, they're not accessing publicly accessible info only, they have knowledge from gossip, rumors, etc.
So sure, at 8 hits when it's public info your Decker will get more info than your contact may know at 6 hits, but if it's not in public their 8 hits won't get them the info while the contact can.
In SR5, thresholds were different between Contacts and Matrix Search, while some info was never available through Matrix Search. (See SRMs Legwork tables as example.) In 6w, maybe the thresholds might be pretty much the same (as indicated by 'Use the Legwork Results table (p. 50) as a general guideline for what is uncovered'), but some info still will not be findable in the Matrix. So if it's public info, the Decker can get you more stuff even if it takes a bit longer, but once it's not public anymore the Contacts really shine.
@Plan_B: If you have 13 base dice, I don't think 10 hits comes with a significant risk. First roll roughly 1/400, second 1/800, third 1/200... That's less than 1/100 chance you glitch during 3 rolls on an Extended Legwork test, vs 1/500 chance of not scoring 10+ hits. So I agree the GM can require rolls, but I think there's more value in doing so for the impact on the game clock, rather than actually mattering for glitch-chances.
A case where the clock matters: Our Decker scored 9 hits with a full reroll in 1 roll, allowing us to obtain critical info for a choice we had to make within 15 minutes.
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Is it a problem a Decker can basically find anything that is located online in publicly accessable places, as long as they take their time for it?
Yes, I think it is (depending on what you mean with 'publicly accessible').
A character that just have a budget commlink and a few points in electronics (for example a total dice pool of 10 dice or so) should probably automatically find general knowledge or public information.
Even if it might not be totally impossible, the same character should probably have a rather hard time finding limited information such as whispers of gossip or professional knowledge that is not publicized.
The same character should probably not even have a chance at all to find deeply hidden secret information that perhaps only a select few know about or is actively being erased from the matrix.
I liked this
(and this was also how matrix search played out in SR5 and how it would be played out in SR6 if Matrix Search was just a simple test with a duration of 10 minutes).
However, if matrix search is treated as an extended test with a zero threshold then even someone with such a small dice pool as 10 dice will pretty much automatically find deeply hidden secret information that perhaps only a select few know about or is actively being erased from the matrix.
Every. Single. Time. In less than an hour and a half.
I don't like this.
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Is it a problem a Decker can basically find anything that is located online in publicly accessable places, as long as they take their time for it?
Yes, I think it is (depending on what you mean with 'publicly accessible').
A character that just have a budget commlink and a few points in electronics (for example a total dice pool of 10 dice or so) should probably automatically find general knowledge or public information.
Even if it might not be totally impossible, the same character should probably have a rather hard time finding limited, secret or hidden information that is not publicized.
The same character should probably not even have a chance at all to find deeply hidden secret information that only a select few know about and that is actively being erased from the matrix.
I liked this
(and this was also how matrix search played out in SR5 and how it would be played out in SR6 if Matrix Search was just a simple test with a duration of 10 minutes).
However, if matrix search is treated as an extended test with a zero threshold then even someone with such a small dice pool as 10 dice will pretty much automatically find deeply hidden secret information that only a select few know about and that is actively being erased from the matrix.
Every. Single. Time. In less than an hour and a half.
I don't like this.
No ... not really. If it is a deep dark secret that has been erased from matrix you could perform a matrix search for years and never find it. A search will never find anything that has been deleted or hidden behind any kind of firewall out of the public realm ... that is what electronic forensics and hacking are for
Just one example... you may be able to see things find out about a person from social media post or public matrix posts but unless you hack them you would not ever gain access to their private text messages
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@All
In an effort to moderate this thread a little and to avoid having the discussion just go in circles, I'm going to start a separate thread on Matrix Search, because I have many thoughts and scenarios I'd like to run through. I also have several points of reference from previous and current editions I'd like to bring up and get your thoughts on.
For now, let's agree that the definition of what is publically available information is entirely up to the GM, and that Matrix Search as written is more about how long rather than if at all it will take a PC to find public information.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would kindly direct your attention back to scenario 2 (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=30383.msg528759#msg528759) while I type up my thoughts on Matrix Search in a separate thread.
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Not at book but to turn augmentation that are connected via neutral interface (not to be confused with DNI) used to be a free action, and in this edition it is probably a minor (probably the Switch Device Mode Anytime Action).
I read it as if turning on cyberware (such as your cybereyes, at least cyberware that is directly connected to your nervous system) is a Minor action. Note that the device will probably not come back on-line until at the end of the following combat turn (as per the Reboot Device action). It also seem to be a Minor action to disable wireless in a device that you are linked to via DNI:
SR6 p. 41 Minor Actions - Change Device Mode (A)
A character may use a Minor Action to activate, deactivate, or switch the mode on any device that they are linked to by a direct neural interface, be it a wired or wireless link. This includes activating or deactivating cyberware, changing a smartgun’s firing settings, switching a commlink to hidden mode, turning a device’s wireless functionality off, and so on.
Turn on a device (such as a pair of smart goggles) seem to be a Major action (DNI can't really help you here since the device is currently offline, you need to manually press the on-switch). Note that the device will probably not come on-line until the end of the following combat turn (as per the Reboot Device action). It also seem to be a Major action to disable wireless in a device in case you don't have DNI:
SR6 p. 44 Use Simple Action
A character can use any simple device with a Major Action. Simple devices are those that are activated with a simple movement like a thumb trigger, pressing a single key, or tapping a single icon.
It takes longer to interact with more complex devices, with required time being up to the gamemaster or listed with the description of specific gear.
Remember, a device connected via a DNI-enabled system uses the Minor Action.
To actually reboot a device that you are the legit owner of or if you have Admin access to seem to be the Legal Reboot Device Major Matrix Action (no matter if you have DNI or not) and also note that the device will not come back on-line until the earliest at the end of the following combat turn. In previous edition this action also mentioned that it was used for just shutting down a device - and also when taking this action you could also decide when the device (or your living persona) should boot up.
SR6 p. 183 Reboot Device
The target device shuts down and immediately reboots. The device comes back online at the end of the following combat round. The device ceases electronic functions and disappears from the Matrix until its reboot time is over.
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Assumption 2: The cybereyes are slaved to the samurai's PAN, and are Rating 4.
While not explicitly specified, we can (safely?) assume that the Rating of the eyes are equal to their Device Rating, which is used to determine their Matrix Condition Monitor. In this case, DR/2 + 8, for 10.
Scenario 2.1: Raw Matrix Damage
Turn 1:
Major Action: Data Spike
Major Action: Data Spike
Result: The Matrix attributes of the hacker will determine Matrix damage. The cheapest deck has A/F 4/3 while the most expensive is 9/8, and base DV is Attack/2 so base DV will range from 2 to 5. Causing enough damage to brick the device in a single attack is mathematically improbable; modified DV would need to be 11+ in order for enough damage to be inflicted assuming a Willpower of 3 for one probable success on the damage resist test. This means you would need 6+ net hits on the attack test.
I think the Damage is a lot higher. Dataspike Damage is Attack rating/2 round Up.
Attack rating = Attack+Sleaze.
So its not your Attack Attribute, but your Attack rating ( which partly consists og your Attack Attribute) that determines your Damage value.
So its between 4 and 9.
Regarding the First part of the quoted text. Where do I find the rules for PAN granting firewall and DP processing ratings to my slaved gear? I feel like Ive made a critical glitch on my search check :/
Edit: Spelling errors
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I think the Damage is a lot higher. Dataspike Damage is Attack rating/2 round Up.
Attack rating = Attack+Sleaze.
So its not your Attack Attribute, but your Attack rating ( which partly consists og your Attack Attribute) that determines your Damage value.
So its between 4 and 9.
Wow, you are right about RAW. That doesn't quite jive with page 174, however:
Attack represents the offensive power of the device in cybercombat and how much damage it can do when attacking.
But you're 100% correct, the rule for Data Spike does specify "Attack Rating/2". That... is wild.
EDIT:
@Banshee Can you comment on this? There are no examples for Data Spike, but it seems unlikely that the intent was for Data Spike DV to be (Attack+Sleaze)/2 as opposed to (Attack)/2, but the way this is worded straight up says "Attack Rating", not "Attack attribute" or "Attack Rank".
This has pretty significant consequences. Assuming the default A/S values for the available cyberdecks, your BASE Matrix DV with Data Spike is:
Erika MCD-6: A/S 4/3, Attack Rating 7, base DV 4
Spinrad Falcon: A/S 5/4, Attack Rating 9, base DV 5
MCT 360: A/S 6/5, Attack Rating 11, base DV 6
Renraku Kitsune: A/S 7/6, Attack Rating 13, base DV 7
Shiawase Cyber-6: A/S 8/7, Attack Rating 15, base DV 8
Fairlight Excalibur: A/S 9/8, Attack Rating 17, base DV 9
In other words, the higher end decks are likely to be able to take out most generic devices (Condition Monitor 8 + (Device Rating / 2) = range of 9-13) in a single Data Spike Attack. Add Fork to the mix and you're bricking two different devices with a single attack action.
This seems wildly disproportionate to physical combat, where DV values (other than explosives, rockets/missiles, and grenades) range from 2P to 6P.
Regarding the First part of the quoted text. Ejere do I find the rules for PAN granting firewall and DP processing ratings to my slaver gear? I feel like Ive made a critical glitch on my search check :/
Page 174:
Most people access the Matrix through a device. Nowadays, everyone has a commlink, a pocket-sized smart device that interfaces with the Matrix at large. Some are integrated into glasses, or even fully into cybernetic augmentation, while others still have the familiar handheld screen look. They are used for rudimentary access, most commonly for commcalls and searches, as well as basic Matrix Firewall defense for devices attached to the user’s PAN.
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Page 174:
Most people access the Matrix through a device. Nowadays, everyone has a commlink, a pocket-sized smart device that interfaces with the Matrix at large. Some are integrated into glasses, or even fully into cybernetic augmentation, while others still have the familiar handheld screen look. They are used for rudimentary access, most commonly for commcalls and searches, as well as basic Matrix Firewall defense for devices attached to the user’s PAN.
Aah. Thanks, must have skimmed that part 2 og 3 times already :)
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Good catch on the data spike damage. That's a holdover typo, we had not settled on calling it attack rating at that point ... it is based on the attack attribute only. I will submit the change, thanks!!
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Good catch on the data spike damage. That's a holdover typo, we had not settled on calling it attack rating at that point ... it is based on the attack attribute only. I will submit the change, thanks!!
Thank you!
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Realized I had not responded to this yet. Thread got a little derailed with the whole Matrix Search thing. Anyway.
Just replying to the Data Spike portion in this post:
Assumption 1: Smartlink would be the most likely reason. You could run a cable from your eye to the gun perhaps, but that looks funny. Likewise, if you have obvious cybereyes yet they're not broadcasting on the matrix, security might see that as suspicious. Of course, if you wanted to be in AR, your eyes would have to be wirelessly enabled as well or else your image link won't be giving you any visual AROs.
This represents another topology challenge, actually.
Now that we know devices can be protected by PANs, and PANs and Hosts can be nested, the topology of the Wireless Matrix has changed, potentially completely.
Let's say I have a commlink. It forms the basis for my PAN, and I've slaved the wirelessly enabled smartlink to my pan. In addition, I've wired my smartgun to my datajack in order to form a network between the smartlink in my eyes, and the smartgun in my hands.
Is the smartgun now accessible wirelessly through my PAN? I would think yes; the only way to truly remain offline is to completely turn off all wireless capability of a device; you can still use wires, but as soon as you introduce a wireless component into an otherwise wired LAN, the hierarchy of nested hosts and PANs suggest that you now have a bridge into the network.
This would also explain how Data Taps work, incidentally.
Also, do you need an image link in your cybereyes if you have a Datajack or other form of DNI? If I have Cybereyes but no DNI then I would say yes, you need an image link to see AR. But if I have some form of DNI then I do not need any kind of link to be able to see AR or sensor data, as long as those devices are wirelessly connected to my DNI.
Assumption 2: I don't think it's safe assumption at all that Rating corresponds to Device Rating. It's an unfortunate omission that suggested Device Ratings was left out, but still I'd recommend using 5e's yardsticks until such time 6we gives something explicitly different. So, the cybereyes should (IMO) have Device Ratings compared to their grade rather than rating. Probably DR 2 for standard grade.
Putting on my devil's advocate hat here for a moment; if not device rating in SR6, then what? SR6 has not introduced the concept of devices having a fixed device rating based on a concept of technological advancement. Object resistance is defined, but device rating is not. With the exception of Bows (rating 14 device, ultra-tech bow) the rating of most objects is something I think a lot of people would consider a logical leap to substitute for device rating. Is it right? Maybe not. But what else do we have to go on if you look at the CRB alone?
Question 1: no firewall stated = Firewall 0. Pays to protect stuff you don't want hacked. Or, like you opined, turn the wireless off if at all feasible.
Agreed. This does mean that hacking unprotected devices is laughably easy; the obvious question is "how many devices are truly unprotected in the 6th World?"
Cars rolling down the highway are probably slaved to PANs at the very least, hosts at best. Otherwise even the greenest decker in the world could just buy a single hit on drones and vehicles without any firewall or data processing stat, because there would be no opposed dice pool for certain actions.
I don't see anything to quibble about on the mathemetics on the Data Spike. Although I do want to point out that in 6we there's a very important new aspect to Matrix damage: it applies penalties. So if you Data Spike say a gun or drone, and only do 6 damage, you may not have bricked it but you're still imposing -2 dice from the damage! Harder to say what -2 dice to using Cybereyes would mean, but surely it'd at least apply its penalty to Perception tests.
Excellent point about penalties, I hadn't considered that. Thanks!
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I wasn't saying do away with Device Rating... I was saying the things Rating signifies isn't at all the same thing as Device Rating and shouldn't be used in absence of a given Device Rating. A Deltaware Rating 1 Cyberjack should be harder to hack than a Standard grade Rating 2 Cyberjack. And lots of Cyberware doesn't even HAVE a rating, anyway. A notable example: Smartlink.
I'm advocating using 5e's old chart (which in the case of cyberware, gives DRs based on grade), since an equivalent wasn't put in the 6we CRB.
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Is the smartgun now accessible wirelessly ...
I don't think it really matter how you nest or daisy chain things. In the end you still need to ask yourself if the smartgun system (smartgun + smartlink + DNI) can be wireless hacked from the matrix or not. Either it can (and you gain access to its wireless bonuses) or it can't (and you don't gain access to its wireless bonuses). You can't have the cake and eat it too.
Also, do you need an image link in your cybereyes if you have a Datajack or other form of DNI? If I have Cybereyes but no DNI then I would say yes, you need an image link to see AR.
Cybereyes comes with an image link as default.
But what else do we have to go on if you look at the CRB alone?
For now that is all you have to go on by a strict reading of RAW, but I think that (RAI) they just forgot to include the Common Device Rating table from SR5 (same as they originally forgot to include the Common Perception Test table).
This does mean that hacking unprotected devices is laughably easy; the obvious question is "how many devices are truly unprotected in the 6th World?"
It seem as if RAW here is that only a handful of your items will be inside your PAN (Data Processing of your commlink set the number of devices you may slave to it) while RAI seem to be that most items will belong to a network of sorts and that it mostly boils down to resolving which network it belong to.
Cars rolling down the highway are probably slaved to PANs at the very least, hosts at best. Otherwise even the greenest decker in the world could just buy a single hit on drones and vehicles without any firewall or data processing stat, because there would be no opposed dice pool for certain actions.
Note that even if you have admin access to a drone or vehicle does not automatically mean you get to control i (if someone else is already remote controlling it or is already jumped into it, for example)
I'm advocating using 5e's old chart (which in the case of cyberware, gives DRs based on grade), since an equivalent wasn't put in the 6we CRB.
Agreed.
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When we use DR table from 5e. There is cyberware DR 2.
When I buy Cybereye Rating 4, is the same like DR4? Or DR2.
How I can protect Cyebereye in PAN when i have Renraku Sensei commlink DR3 but D/F 0/2.
When itst he same DR4 Cybereye And when i count DR=firewall it is more than firewall of my commlink.
And what other cyberware and devices? How much devices i can connect to Renraku before he dies.
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When we use DR table from 5e. There is cyberware DR 2.
When I buy Cybereye Rating 4, is the same like DR4? Or DR2.
How I can protect Cyebereye in PAN when i have Renraku Sensei commlink DR3 but D/F 0/2.
And what other cyberware and devices? How much devices i can connect to Renraku before he dies.
Under 5e, it was:
Used/Standard grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 2. Alpha grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 3. Beta grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 4. Delta grade (doesn't matter the rating) DR 5.
In 6we, I'd use those same values, but since you don't get a free firewall stat to match your DR in this edition, it'd be DR+0 to defend against hacking if you don't put your cyberware in your PAN. Also note that, per the August Errata, if you ARE protecting a device you can not only use the Firewall of your commlink/cyberjack/RCC you can also use the better value between Device Rating and the relevant Mental attribute to defend against matrix actions. Got a nice big Intuition but a DR 2 cybereyes implant? Use your nice big Intuition, then. Or your nice big DR, if you have bad mental stats :D
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I donnt find this Defense neither in CRB nor in August Erratta.
CRB p.179 "Attack Rating is the persona’s Attack + Sleaze. Defense Rating is the target’s Data Processing + Firewall.
In these core rules, there are two primary ways to attack a foe—Data Spike and Tarpit. Attacks are defined as actions that deal damage directly to an icon."
CRB p.181 "Data Spike (illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major)"
CRB p.182 "Using Full Matrix Defense prevents you from attacking, but it makes your defense stronger. The next time you are attacked in the Matrix (meaning an action is taken that will directly cause you damage), add your Firewall rating to your defense roll."
CRB p.180 "Brute Force (illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Willpower + Firewall (Major)"
Nowhere is mention that i can use Intuition or bigger Device Rating value.
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Pages 6-7 of the August Errata, which takes effect on the CRB text on pg 179. I was referencing the bolded portion of that text in the previous post.
p. 179, Matrix Actions
Adjust paragraph two to read as follows:
Where two different dice pools are listed, such
as “Intuition + Firewall or Sleaze + Firewall,” per-
sonas with Mental attributes use the pool with
those attributes. Drones use their Pilot Rating in
place of the Mental Attribute. A persona actively
defending for a device or host can use the other
pool with the device or host attributes.
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Im not sure.
The rules say about mental attributes: "Where two different dice pools are listed, such as “Intuition + Firewall or Sleaze + Firewall,” personas with Mental attributes use the pool with those attributes." This is for example Edit Files action. Where is only one option you cannt choose other.
OK, next sentence say "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes." Not mental attributes.
Action rules are still valid, Data Spike Brute Force Tar Pit etc. Its A+a vs B+b.
When i have commlink in host, i can used attributes from host and not commlink.
There is difference in 5e and 6e Full matrix defense. In 5e Full matrix defence is like, i pay attention to defense so i add willpower to defense. In 6e is only you can add your firewall to defense. And when my firewall is D/F 0/2 what i can do? its still passive. I'm waiting for death. Maybe next errata correct this.
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Well, agreed that "actively defended" could have been defined in the hotfix. I'm comfortable saying that the intent in all of this is that, as long as the device is actively being used by someone, the minimum dice pool to resist hacking is (the higher of Device Rating or applicable Mental Stat) + 0 if there's no Firewall.
If we're talking about hacking some cybereyes on a shelf somewhere that noone's using (and somehow still have power), yeah they aren't reasonably being "actively defended" and they'll be stuck with 0 Intuition/Willpower + 0 Firewall for a total of 0 dice to resist.
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I should note that if a cyberware shop were to have its gear online and hackable, and the eyes would start following me while I was visiting? I'd take a Reputation hit for vaporising the entire place.
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A host without a spider defend with firewall alone (as clarified by example). It does not defend with device rating plus firewall.
A host with a spider attending the host defend with mental attributes of the spider plus firewall of the host (also clarified by the same example).
It stand to reason that a device that is left unattended (such as a maglock that was configured once and then left alone or that pair of cybereyes in the shop) would defend with firewall alone (if it have access to one).
It seem as if a device that is attended or used by someone on a regular basis (or whatever actively defended might mean) get to use the mental attributes of that person (hacking a firearm or installed cybereyes) plus firewall of the PAN in case it happen to be one of the handful devices you can slave to your commlink or the firewall of the host in case it is part of a WAN.
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Oh wow, I didn't read that part in detail yet. So if I want to make a high-level host more vulnerable, I should poison the Spiders?? O_O That is an AWESOME way of getting into a high-level Host: Poison all Spiders with those breakdown capsules that release at a specific time, to knock them all out and do your thing in the 5 minutes that buys you. Now I want to write that story/run.
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I dissagree with this.
Rules clearly say how defend again attack. This attack are speciphic action discrabed in the rules. Each action has own defensive mechanism. When im not hecker, i have only a few option as defend. This is Full matrix defense (which 6e are different of 5e, and dosnnt sense) or reboot my devices.
Next. When i go in sprawl my commlink in my pocket, is only icon. It become persona when i interact with matrix by commlink.
So, maybe defense is my intention to defense, how i set defensive rules in my commlink. Its electronic skill + firewall. When im attacked my commlink bzzz, bzz INTRUDER,INTRUDER, I switch on my commlink, and googles and AR gloves, switch to AR and actively fight again intruder, Its my Full defense. I can add my willpower to defensive roll.
It is as i imagine this.
Next case to discusse.
Tarpit action "Data Processing rating by the same amount. If a device’s Data Processing rating is reduced to 0, the user cannot perform a Matrix action until it is 1 or more."
Commlinks
ITEM DEVICE RATING ATTRIBUTES (D/F) ACTIVE PROGRAM SLOTS AVAIL COST
Meta Link 1 1/0 0 2 100¥
Sony Emperor 2 1/1 1 2 700¥
Renraku Sensei 3 2/0 1 2 1,000¥
Erika Elite 4 2/1 2 2 2,500¥
Hermes Ikon 5 3/0 2 3 5,000¥
Transys Avalon 6 3/1 3 3 8,000¥
In your example i can used Device Rating of commlink? Why are attributes there.
When i will follow idea of Tarpit, than:
3 commlinks has D/F x/0. I have functional and non protected commlink. In CRB i can switch attributes freely with minor action. When i switch my Hermes Ikon to D/F 0/3 (i want protect my naked photos), it became expansive fashion accessory. In my image link i see only frozen icons and big rotatting circle.
Now i only can reboot commlink to factory settings.
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I thought and read again CRB.
As SSDR written "A persona actively defending for a device or host can use the other pool with the device or host attributes."
Maybe I understand more.
When i Grab my googles, AR gloves or commlink itself i can change
Data Spike
(illegal) Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall (Major) to Cracking + Logic vs. willpower + Firewall.
But when my commlink is in my pocket allways applies Cracking + Logic vs. Data Processing + Firewall.
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Next case to discusse.
Tarpit action "Data Processing rating by the same amount. If a device’s Data Processing rating is reduced to 0, the user cannot perform a Matrix action until it is 1 or more."
Commlinks
ITEM DEVICE RATING ATTRIBUTES (D/F) ACTIVE PROGRAM SLOTS AVAIL COST
Meta Link 1 1/0 0 2 100¥
Sony Emperor 2 1/1 1 2 700¥
Renraku Sensei 3 2/0 1 2 1,000¥
Erika Elite 4 2/1 2 2 2,500¥
Hermes Ikon 5 3/0 2 3 5,000¥
Transys Avalon 6 3/1 3 3 8,000¥
In your example i can used Device Rating of commlink? Why are attributes there.
When i will follow idea of Tarpit, than:
3 commlinks has D/F x/0. I have functional and non protected commlink. In CRB i can switch attributes freely with minor action. When i switch my Hermes Ikon to D/F 0/3 (i want protect my naked photos), it became expansive fashion accessory. In my image link i see only frozen icons and big rotatting circle.
Now i only can reboot commlink to factory settings.
-If you use the "Toolbox" Program, that gives +1 Data Processing. So you can have then - for example - 3 Firewall, 1 Data Processing with Hermes Icon Commlink.
-best protection is being in the group Hackers PAN for protection.
But if you want to have a rather secure PAN for yourself as non-Hacker this is probably the best - single commlink - possible:
Transys Avalon with Toolbox and Biofeedback Filter programs.
The Biofeedback Filter description says p.184 "Biofeedback Filter: Allow Device Rating or Body roll to soak Matrix damage."
So then your Transys Avalon rolls 3 Firewall + 2 Data Processing + 6 Device Rating = 11 Soak Dice against "Data Spike". With "Full Matrix Defense" it gets the Firewall a second time for 14 Dice.
Note that Biofeedback Filter only works for Matrix Damage not Matrix Defense in general. So against Brute Force the Defense would be Firewall + again Firewall from Full Matrix Defense + your Willpower.
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Regarding Willpower in Matrix Defense Rolls:
Banshee wrote in a thread a while ago that Willpower is supposed to work whether or not you are actively using your Device. You can explain that in game that you use your Willpower to keep the System up to date and clean. In that reading it would make sense to ignore temporary Willpower modifiers for Matrix Defense rolls.
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In your example i can used Device Rating of commlink? Why are attributes there.
When i will follow idea of Tarpit, than:
3 commlinks has D/F x/0. I have functional and non protected commlink. In CRB i can switch attributes freely with minor action. When i switch my Hermes Ikon to D/F 0/3 (i want protect my naked photos), it became expansive fashion accessory. In my image link i see only frozen icons and big rotatting circle.
Now i only can reboot commlink to factory settings.
The most plausible answer to this problem is that the sentence "If a device’s Data Processing rating is reduced to 0, the user cannot perform a Matrix action until it is 1 or more." is not a general statement, but an effect of the Tarpit Attack. Which seems quite likely, because else, there would be a general statement that you can´t switch X/0 Commlinks into having a Firewall Attribute (or at least not without turning it into an otherwise useless soak brick).
I mean, it´s Banshee´s stuff. There´s gotta be some sense to it even after the "Editing" team flushed over the Matrix section ::)
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In your example i can used Device Rating of commlink? Why are attributes there.
When i will follow idea of Tarpit, than:
3 commlinks has D/F x/0. I have functional and non protected commlink. In CRB i can switch attributes freely with minor action. When i switch my Hermes Ikon to D/F 0/3 (i want protect my naked photos), it became expansive fashion accessory. In my image link i see only frozen icons and big rotatting circle.
Now i only can reboot commlink to factory settings.
The most plausible answer to this problem is that the sentence "If a device’s Data Processing rating is reduced to 0, the user cannot perform a Matrix action until it is 1 or more." is not a general statement, but an effect of the Tarpit Attack. Which seems quite likely, because else, there would be a general statement that you can´t switch X/0 Commlinks into having a Firewall Attribute (or at least not without turning it into an otherwise useless soak brick).
I mean, it´s Banshee´s stuff. There´s gotta be some sense to it even after the "Editing" team flushed over the Matrix section ::)
Correct, remember spe6trumps general. Tarpit should be the only place that has that reference to the effect of reducing the DP of a device. So it is only there as a measurement for the effect that Tarpit has on a device and not a general rule for devices with a DP of 0.
Also just a quick note about commlinks and potentially similar devices a preset value of 0 in DP or Firewall doesn't mean the device CAN'T perform the action, just that it sucks at it.
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Next. When i go in sprawl my commlink in my pocket, is only icon. It become persona when i interact with matrix by commlink.
Most people are constantly (24/7) interacting with the matrix otherwise you would not be able to see any augmented reality objects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJg02ivYzSs
This mean that you (or rather your matrix persona) is connected to the matrix. And it is connected to the matrix via your commlink. You can even keep it in your pocket since in SR6 almost everyone will have a wireless direct neural interface anyway.
Tarpit should be the only place that has that reference to the effect of reducing the DP of a device.
You also have Binder IC...
Other methods of reducing matrix attributes (but does not share that specific notation) include Diffusion Complex Form, Acid IC and the Hog Matrix Edge Action.
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Also note that, per the August Errata, if you ARE protecting a device you can not only use the Firewall of your commlink/cyberjack/RCC you can also use the better value between Device Rating and the relevant Mental attribute to defend against matrix actions.
That is not how I read it.
I read it as if the persona have mental attributes (such as your persona) then it will [always] use the pool that include mental attributes...
...while if a persona does not have mental attributes (such as an IC persona, an agent persona or a Sprite persona, for example) then it will [always] use the other pool (which instead use attributes provided from the device or the host).
Data Spike (as well as Brute Force and most other matrix actions) does not seem to have two different defense pools listed which seem to indicate that you will always defend against Data Spike by using the only listed attribute combination of Data Processing and Firewall.
Edit File list two different pools which seem to indicate that if you (that have a persona with mental attributes) would defend with Intuition + Firewall while for example if you have a Sprite actively defending (a persona without mental attributes) then it would instead defend with Firewall + Firewall.
hecker
(it is spelled hacker)
When i switch my Hermes Ikon to D/F 0/3 (i want protect my naked photos), it became expansive fashion accessory. In my image link i see only frozen icons and big rotatting circle.
You can still take matrix actions as long as a hacker is not successfully attacking your matrix persona with tarpit or as long as a host is not successfully attacking your matrix persona with binder IC.
Having said that, everything are matrix actions... It seem as if you can't switch interface mode or exit host or reboot or even attempt to jack out as all of them are matrix actions. I wonder if this is really the intent here..... :-/
At the time of writing they were maybe focused on Data Processing actions (which is no longer really a thing in SR6), but in that case it would prevent you from taking the following actions: Change Icon, Edit File, Encrypt File, Jump into Rigged Device, Matrix Perception, Invite Mark, Matrix Search, Reboot Device, Send Message and Switch Interface Mode (but all other actions, including Enter/Exit Host, Full Matrix Defense and Jack Out, for example, would be a valid actions). Note that this is just speculation on my part.
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Well, I happen to know that the intent is that a Host isn't supposed to made easier to hack because it has a Spider defending it. You're not supposed to HAVE to use the mental stat if the Host or Device has a better rating than the defender's mental stat.
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I agree with Xenon.
(Sorry EN isnot my native language)
Also note that, per the August Errata, if you ARE protecting a device you can not only use the Firewall of your commlink/cyberjack/RCC you can also use the better value between Device Rating and the relevant Mental attribute to defend against matrix actions.
That is not how I read it.
Cybereyes Device rating 4 are better than most commlinks. And i can use this DR to defense. Then connect it to PAN is useless.
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I agree with Xenon.
(Sorry EN isnot my native language)
Also note that, per the August Errata, if you ARE protecting a device you can not only use the Firewall of your commlink/cyberjack/RCC you can also use the better value between Device Rating and the relevant Mental attribute to defend against matrix actions.
That is not how I read it.
Cybereyes Device rating 4 are better than most commlinks. And i can use this DR to defense. Then connect it to PAN is useless.
In 6we, Cybereyes never have had their Device Rating given, though. Rating 4 does not mean Device Rating 4. As I said earlier, my suggestion for Cyberware Device Ratings is to extend 5e's yardstick to 6we. (DR 2 for standard grade, DR 3 for Alphaware, DR 4 for Betaware, DR 5 for Deltaware). So, yes. If you shell out for beta or delta-grade cybereyes, then yes they'll be hard to hack. Kind of the point. For what you're paying, they really should be harder to hack than a cheap commlink.
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Cybereyes Device rating 4 are better than most commlinks. And i can use this DR to defense. Then connect it to PAN is useless.
The Program "Biofeedback Filter" is the only way you can include Device Rating in the defense against Matrix Damage. Since the Cybereyes have no "Active Program" Slots you cant use their Device Rating in any rolls - because you cant have Programs running on it. Their Device Rating is only to adjust their Matrix Condition Monitor which is (DeviceRating/2 +8)
But if you know where its written that DR is used in Matrix defense please point me there ^^ and btw english isnt my native language either. I understand you just fine, but thats easier usually for two non native speakers :D
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To understand. I dont want use DR to defensive roll.
That is from my discusion with SSDR.
Summary, Defensive roll is described in each Matrix action. When i actively defend my devices i can use mental attributes. When my devices have better grade and better DR, i can use their DR to Defensive roll to protect this devices, not protect my commlink i supposse.
Correct?
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Well, I happen to know that the intent is that a Host isn't supposed to made easier to hack because it has a Spider defending it. You're not supposed to HAVE to use the mental stat if the Host or Device has a better rating than the defender's mental stat.
Backdoor Entry does not have two defense pools listed. Only one. This mean that the Host will defend with the only defense pool there is. If there is no Spider then the Host will only defend with its own Firewall. If there is a Spider then the host will defend with the Willpower of the Spider + its own Firewall. Device Rating does not seem to be part of the equation at all.
There is even a clarifying example on p. 178
Device rating is not really used at all in this edition (beyond Matrix Condition Monitor Boxes, Opposing Crash Program and Opposing Override).
And Host rating seem to be mostly used just for IC (Host rating x 2 seem to be used for most rolls, Attack Rating and Matrix Condition Monitor Boxes).
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To understand. I dont want use DR to defensive roll.
That is from my discusion with SSDR.
Summary, Defensive roll is described in each Matrix action. When i actively defend my devices i can use mental attributes. When my devices have better grade and better DR, i can use their DR to Defensive roll to protect this devices, not protect my commlink i supposse.
Correct?
Yes but this will rarely help you. Device Rating 4 is pretty high already a Commlink with lower Device Rating than 4 has only 1 Program Slot so you can only run either Toolbox or Biofeedback Filter. So no benefit there. If you really want to run your Cybereyes wireless it would be better with a Transys Avalon DR 6 and then your Cybereyes could use the superior stats to defend from Matrix Attacks. Including the higher Device Rating. [all Rules as written, not what they are intended, the Biofeedback Filter looks like it could be changed in Errata]
note:
There are no stats for Cyberware Device Ratings at the moment anyway so its totally up to the GM how high their Device Rating is.
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Amen.
Exactly.