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Katana Comparison

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« on: <08-16-18/0215:07> »
The core Katana has slightly different stats than Street Lethal's Red Samurai katana. Really there's only two differences: Accuracy and AP. Lorewise I would think the Red Sam katana would be deadlier, however I think the stats favor the core katana more. Perhaps I'm wrong and am missing something.

Thoughts?

Core Katana
7  Acc
1  Reach
+3 DV
-3  AP

Red Sam Katana
6  Acc
1  Reach
+3 DV
-4  AP

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #1 on: <08-16-18/0245:37> »
Yeah, the Red Sam katana is pretty useless compared to other weapons of it's class. Point for point, damage is usually worth more than AP
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #2 on: <08-16-18/0255:31> »
Well, seeing as the Red Samurai Katana has the same damage, just 1 lower Accuracy. That means that unless you are hitting the limit consistently, then the RS Katana is probably slightly better.

Makes sense to me, they make the blade sharper, so it slices better but is slightly harder to handle accurately. (That would be my guess)

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« Reply #3 on: <08-16-18/0846:22> »
Once you're losing dice to Accuracy, the normal katana is better.  You'd think Red Samurai are the types of guys who *do* lose dice to Accuracy, but hey.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #4 on: <08-16-18/1048:32> »
Well, the Red Samurai katana probably always has a Personalized Grip, giving it +2 Accuracy. But remember that while they say Samurai, these are Corporate Security elites. The katana is largely ceremonial in use, since they do have, and use, firearms where appropriate. However, it is made functional, so that they can use it if pressed or in dire straits.

As for the stats, if you're running over the 6 or 7 successes needed to hit the limit consistently, then you probably have enough dice to start dropping a couple for some called shots for extra damage or effects. Also, AP becomes more important when dealing with Hardened Armor, like milspec armor or some critters, and is certainly a deciding factor when dealing with Spirits. Each point of AP reduces both the amount the DV is reduced, and the number of auto-hits the critter gets to resist, making it much more likely for your nonmagical blade to hit them.
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #5 on: <08-16-18/1604:17> »
We are talking about elite HTR guys - if those don't have the dp to need every last bit of ACC who do you think would?
Even more important: It's pretty trivial to gain dps of 18+ in dodge or block. Net successes of one or zero become quite important in those regions.

Personalized grip can grant you +1 ACC but that's an optional feature which a standard katana could get as well: With enough optional features you can get make any weapon work, but that's not a quality of the weapon but of your general build.

AP-1 is on average equivalent to 1/3 DV - unless you are facing something with hardened armor, there AP-1 is on average equivalent to 5/6 DV (you need AP-2 to reliably reduce auto successes by 1, so AP-1 is equivalent to 1/2 DV + the 1/3 from the normal soak roll)
Besides, if you fight something with hardened armor it's usually a materialized spirit, in which case you are well adviced to use a magic weapon where AP is of no concern but beating a possibly quite high defense dp becomes paramount.

If you want a signature weapon that has been designed right, take a look at the Blood Drinker Axe - that's a weapon with good design.
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Shadowjack

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« Reply #6 on: <08-16-18/1712:06> »
The red samurai katana is really nice if you plan to spend edge on your attacks often, and even one melee hit can kill so I do think the extra AP is very relevant in this scenario. For a low edge character I think the regular katana is better though.
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« Reply #7 on: <08-16-18/1728:01> »
I assume it is all about intimidation value. 

Perhaps the curvature of the blade or the cross-sectional shape or whatever makes it just a little less responsive, and the true masters of the art would notice the difference, and in a duel with their peer maybe they'd prefer the one that is just a little more responsive, better balanced, or what have you.

But most of the time?  EVERYBODY has seen the trids where a Red Samurai takes their distinctive katana and slices through something that really looks like you shouldn't be able to slice through it.  Everyone they face know that there is basically nothing sharper than those blades, and one hit and they might be slicing not just to the bone but through the bone.

Most of the time, that is probably worth the balance being subtly off (or whatever)

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« Reply #8 on: <08-16-18/1918:16> »
Meh, Its just a shuffle of numbers....

And is a far better way of dealing with similar equopment - such as these 2 Katanas - because it avoids the "power creep" that comes with each book having "slightly" better equipment; thus needing a player to have the most current book to stay tool relevant.

Having a base parameter for all weapons, then juggling those parameters keeps things fresh while not invalidating "older" equipment.


Want to see the reverse? Check out a few books for Palladium's Rifts game.  A suit of "power armor" goes from 300MDC to 800MDC in just over 10 books.... (with damages averaging from 2d6x10 to start to 6d6x10 by book 10)
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« Reply #9 on: <08-16-18/2249:51> »
Want to see the reverse? Check out a few books for Palladium's Rifts game.  A suit of "power armor" goes from 300MDC to 800MDC in just over 10 books.... (with damages averaging from 2d6x10 to start to 6d6x10 by book 10)
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« Reply #10 on: <08-18-18/0051:06> »
Book Progression in Palladium is different from just other then GURPs as is power creep given that game balance is a concept that has no meaning in the within that system. They are on world book 36 and nothing is stronger then world book 2. (Excepting Rifters and South America 2, but much that stuff is optional rules.) That doesn't include the dozen or so dimension books and settings books. Most books/Nations of the game are however internally consistent.

But that's very off topic. Given that NT promises to be Shadowrun the sword fighting edition, it makes good sense to beef up player sword and particularly katana options. Nothing wrong with some variety there is no doubt which is stronger from a pure system view point, but as we all know most player aren't going to push pulls to much over 20.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #11 on: <08-18-18/1111:29> »
Back of the napkin math says that to be consistently losing hits to the accuracy limit of a Red Samurai Katana with personalized grip, you'd need to have north of 20 dice. Sure, that's pretty average for 4e pools, but that's pretty exceptional for a 5e character. So what are you to do if you have 22 dice and an accuracy of 7 and don't want to spend edge to raise the limit or lose hits? Called shots to increase damage. At that point, you have enough dice that you can definitely drop a few to do insane damage. At which point the increased AP is going to be even nastier to deal with against hardened armored foes.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: <08-18-18/1150:38> »
18d6 have 22.36% chance to go 8+. So over 1/5 chance to lose damage from an unpenalised roll. For 21 dice it's 40%.
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« Reply #13 on: <08-18-18/1225:36> »
The rule of  1/3 is a good buy, it's true you will lose some where around a hit reasonably often.
But lets be real you can boost accuracy, up to 3 times. (1 grip, 1 magic, and 1 martial arts). That means on regular katana a 30 pool or at 27 for red sam. Now it's possible to reach those values eventually, and it important to keep in mind the real issue with melee is, active melee defense can be a giant pool of dice, one of the large pools possible. So for melee, accuracy is king if you wanna push the envelop all the way out.

But likely majority of games, and anything have to do with missions play, a 21 will be more then sufficient, so use which ever one you like.
« Last Edit: <08-18-18/1236:28> by Marcus »
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« Reply #14 on: <08-18-18/1234:03> »
Given how Red Samurai tend not to be Adepts, if we assume a limit of 8: 20 dice for 19% chance to score 9+ hits. So at 20 dice this katana will lose you 2/3 damage 1/5 of the time. And probably about half the time you gain 1/3 damage. So on average it's sufficient.

The 1/3 for limits has been known to not be a good guideline for six years now. 1/2.5 is a better guideline.
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