[blackshade10]

So my group is learning the game, and we've got two players, one who want to play a melee troll adept,  while the other wants to play a intensive Cyberware machine gunner troll.

I'm still learning the game, but it honestly feels like the Cyberware route is vastly better.  I'm trying to find a way for both pcs to be good.

Any tips?

[Kincaid]

Short term, the cyber guy will probably be ahead (assuming equal system mastery in building them, obv.).  Eventually, the physad will likely pull ahead since Essence is a finite resource while initiation, although increasing more expensive, is essentially infinite.  Or at least can reliably eclipse Essence in longer campaigns. 

[Xenon]

In SR5 there is actually great synergy to be found between having both melee and ranged in the same team.

Ranged will benefit by staying prone at range or behind cover (Partial or Good Cover). Ranged attackers also generally don't want to move more than agility x 2 meters in a combat turn (since they will be considered running if they move more than that - and if considered running they will get a negative dice pool modifier on ranged attacks for the rest of the combat turn).

Melee on the other hand benefit by be considered running (Defender running, Attacker making charging attack and up to agility x 4 meters worth of movement that he can use to close the gap to his opponents and it can all be used in the first action phase if he like).

Ranged opponent will suffer by just being in melee combat with the troll adept (Attacker in melee combat making it harder to hit anything with his ranged attacks, will not benefit from Take Cover against a melee attacker and if he goes prone then he will be even easier to hit for a melee attacker... and he will also suffer from Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack making it harder to avoid getting hit if targeted by the machine gunner troll... and if the ranged opponent tries to move out of melee he risk getting intercepted by the adept troll).

Other ranged enemies trying to shoot into melee to hit the troll adept risk hitting their buddy (troll adept get more hits when defending mean that the ranged attacker's buddy must take a test to avoid getting hit, while suffering from the Defender in melee targeted by ranged attack modifier...)

[Lormyr]

The highest advantage to using bioware or cyberware is that such characters will typically have more soak dice and health levels than physical adepts.

The physical adepth could have far more attack dice and/or defense dice, if built towards that end, and his magic resistance potential is infinitely superior to the street sam.

Being that magic and semi automatic burst explosives are the most threatening damage effects in the game either option is valid.

[Marcus]

Cyberware offers early stat advantage, which generally makes Sams stronger right out of the box.
However Adept are over all better at boosting the two most important die pools (Attack and the basic defense, Reaction+intuition). Once those pools get high enough and you have a character that's very effective, and hard to hit. One initiation is one power point for an adept, and that does mean Adepts will get stronger faster. Adept power points aren't as efficient as cyber-ware on per point bases, but the only real cap on initiation is awarded Karma. Depending on good at building they both are, your adept will probably pass your sam in three or so initiations. That can be moderated, if your adept puts point into the less effective adept powers.

[Reaver]

Magic and cyber tackle the problem of character enhancement from 2 different angles, using 2 entirely different resources, and its important understand that.

Cyber enhancement runs on 2 resources: Essence and money. Essence is a finite resource and when its gone, its gone. Money is a flexable resource. Enhancement through ware, while depleting essence also leaves Karma available to the character to improve skills and other details, often giving a mundane character an effective "double" boost in power every time new ware AND karma are spent.
At least in the beginning as cyber has some serious caps to it. As mentioned, Essence is one such cap. The +4 augmented max is the other.

Awakened characters have a sole resource they have to manage; Karma.
Karma is used by awakened vharacters in all aspects of enhancement. Improving attributes, new skills, improving skills, new spells/powers, initiation all take Karma. Which means awakened characters improve much slower then mundane characters. And when you consider their Magic Attribute is tied to Essence, they can't "cheat" to power with cyber without taking a serious (karma) loss.
However, there is less restrictions on just how "powerful" magic can get, as the upper cap on inititation (and thus power points, magic rating) is limited only by the karma cost!

******

Speaking from expwrience as someone who has played the same character for 25+ years through all the edition changes: Awakened start off 'weaker' but end up extremely, game breakingly powerful. (Currently at the 10k karma mark)

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

There's no doubt awakened types get a lot more powerful as they go, the cyber types do as well.   To a lesser extent in raw power... as you can only upgrade your 'ware to Deltagrade and you STILL only have so much essence to play with even as your ware gets better...

Cyberered characters have an advantage in their customizability.  While an adept can't easily change out his abilities, a cybertroll gains entirely new and different abilities in a "plug and play" manner... so long as you have the nuyen to afford swapping out cyberware.  All the adept can do is get MOAR POWAH as opposed to replacing powers.

And there's also some things that magic will inherently just never do.  To be fair the converse is also true, but it feels like there's more abilities you can do with cyber but can't do with magic than the other way around.

[Marcus]

And there's also some things that magic will inherently just never do.  To be fair the converse is also true, but it feels like there's more abilities you can do with cyber but can't do with magic than the other way around.

Once you have full knowledge of all Adept powers, adepts can more directly raise basically any specific combat pools including limits, where Cyber are more limited to values the attributes the combat pools are derived from. You can make an adept that has twice as many health levels as cyber character, just most people won't.

As an example, the base defense test, Reaction+Intuition, Cyber character right out of the box, can get wired reflex and reaction enhancers  though they have to wirelessly active. Verses adepts who have improved reflexes and combat sense. Combat Sense only raise the defensive component of that pool, however an adept can add more dice over all using combat sense then Cyberware can using the other two. Magic Weakness is some of their powers are sensitive to background count.

In the end it really comes down to how detailed your knowledge of the various mechanics is, and how they fit together in the larger system. Your looking at potential costs, what is the value of this capability verses the value of that capability. How it will all work, is gonna vary by lots factors, how your table runs, how your team approaches combat, What GM's opinion on long list of topics is, even what types of healing are available, can make a meaningful difference in how effective one build style is verses the other.

[Beta]

Line them both up in a field, with an array of enemies to deal with 'over there', and no doubt the gunner will be more effective.

Trying to quietly infiltrate a facility, and having to take out the guard just around the corner without making a noise, I think the adept may have an easier time of it.

There is a role in SR for shocking amounts of gross violence.  But it is often a pretty small role.  Ultimately you can't fight your way through an entire corp, you know?

[Reaver]

  Ultimately you can't fight your way through an entire corp, you know?

Doesn't stop a lot of newbies from trying

[PiXeL01]

Enough ammo and explosives should carry you through the day, no?

[Beta]

It would probably help if both know how to shoot something that takes a silencer.  But overall, with the metatype rating on trolls tending to mean low total skill points, and hence less skill diversity, if these are your only two players, it is going to be a challenge making up runs for them.

[blackshade10]

It would probably help if both know how to shoot something that takes a silencer.  But overall, with the metatype rating on trolls tending to mean low total skill points, and hence less skill diversity, if these are your only two players, it is going to be a challenge making up runs for them.

We've also got an Elf Technomancer(me), an Elf Ninja-Decker, and a Dwarf Shaman Healer.

[Marcus]

You're never more then a contact away from any skill issue you need handled. Having a small party simply means, you need a colorful cast of NPCs to help fill out the roster.

[Beta]

It would probably help if both know how to shoot something that takes a silencer.  But overall, with the metatype rating on trolls tending to mean low total skill points, and hence less skill diversity, if these are your only two players, it is going to be a challenge making up runs for them.

We've also got an Elf Technomancer(me), an Elf Ninja-Decker, and a Dwarf Shaman Healer.

So, not going to be hired by the Brackhaven Foundation

But also not going to be doing 'social stealth' types of missions by the looks of it.  The team looks more ready for the classic hard insertion (hack matrix security, take out human security when you encounter it, overcome magical security with a mix of magic and high damage -- not relying on cons or magic to bypass security so much.  Sounds fun!

And in that environment, I think both trolls will have their turns to shine.