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Expensive but deadly arrow

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IrNot1337

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« on: <10-05-16/1457:32> »
So I initially looked into making my Archer more deadly as Shooting 1 Arrow per Action is no where near as effective as firearms mechanically (No bursts to remove dodge pool, low overall Armor Penetration) when I was looking at some alternatives to Narcojet injection arrows.

In Chrome Flesh there are two candidates for new nastiness to inject into your targets: Cutters from Weaponized Nanotech and Smart Corrosives from Nanogear.

Cutters initially sound like an amazing option based on their description, however with an activation time of 1 minute after they are injected, the combat will be well over before they have a chance to take out your target. They seem like a better option for subterfuge poison or dissolving a body in a bathtub than shooting out of an arrow.

Smart Corrosives though. Wow. I feel bad for even thinking about injecting these into some poor sap.

Let's look at how they work, when purchased you order them pre-programmed for a certain material (let's go with muscle tissue), when the nanites contact said material they release their payload of acid. 10P of acid, which as the core rulebook states on p.170 the damage continues until removed (unlikely due to being injected) or until it burns out (-1P per combat turn).

So let's give an example of this killer arrow.
Let's run a hypothetical test using a Wakyambi archer with a modified Str/Agi of 10/10 with Archery at 6 and a Specialization in Bows and a Rating 10 Bow.
So the Archer throws 18 Dice for an attack roll with an accuracy limit of 6 from the bow (7 if you put on a personalized grip). Damage on the Arrow is 12P with an AP of 2.
The mook you're shooting at is a Professional Rating 6 with modified Bod/Rea/Wil/Int of 6/8/5/6 and an armor pool of 18.

Your 18 Dice get on average between 4-6 Hits, the NPC gets between 3-4 Hits netting you 1-2 Hits for Damage to your arrow.
13-14P with AP -2 vs NPCs 27 (29 -2 AP) results in somewhere between 4-8P damage (A noteworthy hit but not going to drop a NPC with 11 Physical Boxes in one hit).

Now for the real nastiness. As long as at least 1P of damage gets through armor, the chemical/drug/nanites are injected into your target to take effect.
The NPC has taken between 4-8P already this round, and immediately gets hit with an extra 10P of Acid damage resisted by only Body + Willpower.
The acid is internal so it shouldn't benefit from armor (unless the GM allows a bonus from some type of Cyber/Biowear and it's not a toxin so no toxin resistance gear/ware).
10P resisted by an 11 dice pool averaging 2-3 hits will cause an additional 7-8 boxes of Physical damage that same initiative pass.
This takes our NPC to somewhere between 11-16P of Physical dropping them into unconsciousness at the least and possibly killing them via physical overflow.
But the acid isn't done yet, once per combat turn the Acid continues doing damage at -1P each time resulting in our NPC turning into goo before the Acid burns out.
(Next turn they resist 9P then 8P then 7P etc.. until the GM decides to stop rolling or the acid starts eating into their armor from the inside out and then the floor).

The arrows can do a theoretical maximum damage of around 69P with a more realistic resisted damage of 33P before the Acid burns itself out.
There are really only two downsides to the arrows: Firstly their cost, the arrows themselves cost about 4,200 NuYen with an availability of 12R.
Secondly the arrows need to be able to penetrate the armor of the target in order to get the acid working away at the NPC from the inside out. (So don't shoot the tank).

That's right, you can carry these things legally with your requisite fake license and go about your day of liquefying baddies.

This turns a bow into a weapon on the scale of AA Missiles with chunky salsa in full effect.

[Edited for format and clarity.]
« Last Edit: <10-05-16/1734:18> by IrNot1337 »

Dwagonzhan

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« Reply #1 on: <10-06-16/1323:05> »
I wonder, can you attain similar results with capsule rounds and sniper rifles?
If so, well, it just continues the SR5 tradition of archery being a nifty sideshow, but ultimately pointless since it costs way too much to make it viable vs firearms.
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markc

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« Reply #2 on: <10-06-16/1337:25> »
After giving this some thought as how I would handle this as a GM and how I think it might be seen in real life I have come to the following conclusion.
It really depends on where the arrow of acid hits the target, how hard the contact is and how much of the acid gets into the target location.
ie If you take an example of super strong acid (does 1000 D6 damage) and dip a persons finger tip in it, it generally does not kill the person but instead just burns off their finger tip. I do agree that you could just keep burning parts off until the person dies of shock but that is a bit different that what you are talking about.

Do you see my point?
MDC

RowanTheFox

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« Reply #3 on: <10-06-16/1345:36> »
Good god...I thought the torment I put my characters through was bad!

Is there an option to make arrows using the armorer skill? IRL it's not that difficult, just tedious as all sin.
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Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <10-06-16/1638:59> »
Making an arrow is easy enough...

Making a arrow that can withstand the compression forces of modern high powered compound bows? That's hard.

Most people who make their own arrows (I know someone) do so for a traditional longbow which has a pull weight ranging from 15 to 110 lbs.

Modern compound bows can have a release (not Pull!) Weight of over 600 pounds!

(The reason you have to look at the draw of longbow Vs the release compound is due to the mechanical advantage supplied by the compound bow.)

They account for this in SR with the arrow costs going up by the strength rating. - am unsure how you would account for this with SR's crafting system. (Although I am sure some GMs are inventive enough to come up with something for their table).

Other than called shots, hitting the target in SR is assumed to be 'center mass' hits.... meaning we don't have hit table..... so those acid arrows would be injecting into the center mass of the target on a hit.... not the place where you want Acid!!


My issue is: how do you know you hit flesh? (Away from books so can't look up what it says directly). Its possible that the arrow never reaches flesh thanks to armor protection, yet you still do physical damage. (The kenetic impact shatters a rib for example). There have been many accounts of bullet proof vests stopping a bullet, but the wearer still dying due to kinetic trauma.

Off the top of my head, i guess I would look at the adjusted armor value VS the arrow.... if the arrow exceeds the adjusted armor then you have a chance of injection...
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #5 on: <10-06-16/1700:52> »
Actually, as soon as you do physical damage you got through the armor. Only if your damage pre soak is lower than your armor you are considered to have done only stun damage aka not penetrated the armor.
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markc

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« Reply #6 on: <10-06-16/1829:15> »
I was trying to figure out if the posters idea was in some way taking advantage of SR abstract combat system in an unfair way but I will leave that to others who have more experience then me to decide if that is true or not.
MDC

The Bald Man

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« Reply #7 on: <10-06-16/2003:33> »
I haven't gotten to that part of Chrome Flesh yet, but most chemicals that work "immediately" are the beginning of the next combat turn.  Is that any different in this case?  Could give the target another couple IP's to even the score. 

Adamo1618

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« Reply #8 on: <10-07-16/0738:08> »
I wonder, can you attain similar results with capsule rounds and sniper rifles?
If so, well, it just continues the SR5 tradition of archery being a nifty sideshow, but ultimately pointless since it costs way too much to make it viable vs firearms.
They still only use Light Pistol ranges and they will not inject the substance without DMSO, unfortunately. The Parashield Dart Rifle might come in handy.

Dwagonzhan

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« Reply #9 on: <10-07-16/2309:24> »
They still only use Light Pistol ranges and they will not inject the substance without DMSO, unfortunately. The Parashield Dart Rifle might come in handy.

Huh. Looking up the source in Run & Gun (I hate that Chummer 5 doesn't list basic rules text; NSRCG3 in SR3 spoiled me so badly  :()...yeah, capsule rounds are pretty awful.
Bad enough you might consider a crossbow instead. (or just...go back to Full-Auto and Aimed Bursting things in the face like everyone else)

I'm actually kind of glad a special ammo type is total garbage, if only so Archery has some fleeting niche use outside of quaint novelty. (seriously; I'm still miffed at how gloriously nerfed archery is in SR5)

Also, agreed on the Dart Rifle. I have a character who has a lot of fun with that.
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Sterling

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« Reply #10 on: <10-08-16/0648:34> »
I wonder, can you attain similar results with capsule rounds and sniper rifles?
If so, well, it just continues the SR5 tradition of archery being a nifty sideshow, but ultimately pointless since it costs way too much to make it viable vs firearms.
They still only use Light Pistol ranges and they will not inject the substance without DMSO, unfortunately. The Parashield Dart Rifle might come in handy.

Don't forget that capsule rounds are three times as effective as the base drug!

Seriously, RAW you can make three capsule rounds from one dose of a substance.
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