Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: Hobbes on <03-18-18/2149:32>

Title: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-18-18/2149:32>
Cross posting this from the Reddit page.  Comment here or there.  https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/85fzm2/newbie_friendly_pregens/

Missions Legal (for Season 5) Single Page, two sides.

Little project I've been working on based on input from Con players/GMs. I've got several other builds of assorted metatypes and archetypes, but I figured I throw a few out for any other input. I'm looking for format or information you would want on a Pre-gen sheet. If there was ever a "...man I wish X was on these..." moment let me know and I'll try and fit it in.

And let me know about the front page... too much? Too little? Straight to the numbers or add more fluff?

The artwork is all grabbed off the internet, I make no claim to it. The character sheet is edited from chummer.

Human Technomancer https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bVLrMAw9xW8XtSR8JE8sivIMeYcJjahhXG4Cg-ccFgk/edit?usp=sharing

Elf Street Shaman https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OswcGyhkW8KLhWeY6J299lerKMlf5aYa8VZytoSbaBc/edit?usp=sharing

Orc Samurai https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jym1PjRdHPD5m9QfCJLs2_hn-l0Q169c330ee51k4iY/edit?usp=sharing

Ork Samurai Character Tent
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kYXIinMgzOFzu3kzyHMGAmqgwClkEoUD/view?usp=sharing

Troll Face https://docs.google.com/document/d/11F3Ipq4zbv37LU32MLzmP5Md5aI43p8tPFdiWJcERxk/edit?usp=sharing

Troll Face Character Tent
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pijvr9mmvxbJplvU30CX3radCWP5UQmq/view?usp=sharing
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Marcus on <03-19-18/0227:14>
Take the TM Off. TM are the opposite or newbie friendly.  Swap with with good ol'fashioned cyber-arm combat decker.

I like the Shaman, but i'd recommend swapping away from coyote, you don't want newbies confused about combat by some kind die roll saying they have to go a different way.

Orc Samurai- is basically fine I think your getting overly cleaver cyberware wise, using Reaction enhancers and the getting a die from synaptic accelerator is inefficient and just kinda weird way to go about it.

Troll Face is fine, 6 edge goes a long way to solves a run's little issues.

IS Code like a boss missions legal? Their weird rulings that some Codes are ok and others are not always gets me confused.

I like the front pages fine, and the art generally works imo.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-19-18/1223:33>
Their will be a Rigger, and there will be a TM Pre-gen.  People want to play them.  I have a Decker w/Cyberarm build I haven't gotten it formatted and pretty yet. I'll eventually have several more of these posted, but wanted a bit of feedback on some "Proof of Concept" examples.

Mentor Spirits and disads... Coyote seemed pretty tame.  No restriction on self-defense, no problem with using illusions to set up an ambush.  Really just "No Frontal Assault" at least by my reading, I'm open to other interpretations.

I'll double check "Like a Boss" I thought I had the Missions Restrictions checked in Chummer, thanks.

Edge 6 Face... I love the Mrs. Myth pre-gen, but it's 1 Edge.  A couple Missions GMs have said, "Give newbies more edge" and my experience matches.  I tried hard to get all these to at least 3 edge.

Ork Sami... I'm not sure any tweaks to the 'ware result in a significantly better outcome...?  14+2d6 is a nice bell curve for 3 actions.  Don't have the essence for wired, don't have the Nuyen for Synaptic Acceleration...would need to do considerable tweaking to get "better".  If I get time I'll take another look, but maximal optimization wasn't really the goal.  I mean, 3 actions, hits like a truck and tanks pretty well, and artwork from an Iconic Shadowrun artist?  Not sure what else you'll need  :  ) 
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Marcus on <03-19-18/1316:24>
I don't have serious effect issue with the Sami, stat wise it works fine.

As a side note you may want to consider swapping away from guns into melee weapons as we begin the transition into neo-tokyo.

If you insist on having a TM, then I'd just keep it strictly pet method, and add more drugs for more options. Pet method lets the GM handle it a little more, and gives the player the old team work options to help out with their pools. Add some light combat drugs, and maybe some social drugs, and at-least give a little more to do at the table.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: ShadowcatX on <03-19-18/1449:51>
For the Ork I do not believe you can purchase the full body helmet (or the chemical sealing) without the full body armor, they are additions to the body armor not entries in and of themselves.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: littlenog on <03-20-18/0825:36>
I like the builds big fan of the Troll Face.

I think the Orc Street Sam might have some items higher than availability 12 though. 

Muscle Replacement is 5R per rank is the on I notice first.

Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-20-18/0956:38>
I like the builds big fan of the Troll Face.

I think the Orc Street Sam might have some items higher than availability 12 though. 

Muscle Replacement is 5R per rank is the on I notice first.

Probably Used quality so Availability -4, I'll double check Chummer and add the quality of the 'ware to the sheet, thanks.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: DigitalZombie on <03-21-18/1708:14>
Where is the beginner friendly AI character.....no? Ok, then :)
You should definitely also have a B&E character also.

Im also a fan of the face, great concept. But she has weak immune system listed as a positive quality.

Im in general not fan of the more obscure allergies. Cotton for instance, or even gold wouldnt be any issue very often- or so rarely that a new player would have forgotten all about it after a dew gaming sessions.
I think the damage track of the shaman looks confusing with all them colours.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-21-18/2141:49>
Where is the beginner friendly AI character.....no? Ok, then :)
You should definitely also have a B&E character also.

Im also a fan of the face, great concept. But she has weak immune system listed as a positive quality.

Im in general not fan of the more obscure allergies. Cotton for instance, or even gold wouldnt be any issue very often- or so rarely that a new player would have forgotten all about it after a dew gaming sessions.
I think the damage track of the shaman looks confusing with all them colours.

There will be about a dozen of them, one or two will fit the infiltration / B&E slot.  I'll correct the Quality, thanks!  I've been fiddling with a couple different presentations for the Damage Tracks, they're not cooperating. *shrug*  Thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Tecumseh on <03-22-18/0219:59>
This a commendable project and I salute the effort.

Hobbes, I know UmaroVI predated your arrival on the forums by a couple years but he did the same thing for 4th Edition. (His thread is stickied at the top of the Character Creation thread.) This project seems philosophically identical to his, namely to make Missions-legal characters for new players while minimizing complications and fiddly options. The first post of Umaro's thread lays out his approach nicely and at extreme length.

My main critique is going to be of the formatting. The goofy fonts on the first page make my head hurt and take up too much space. The "#, # (#)" format for skill ratings and dice pools will melt brains. Instead I might recommend a 3-column table:

Skill Name (Specialization)Skill Rating     Dice Pool
Shadowrun (Chargen)6 (+2)12 (14)
Internet Commentary (Snark)4 (+2)10 (12)
Unarmed Combat (Lucha Libre)     1 (+2)2 (4)

In a perfect world there would be a fourth column for the linked attribute (to help reinforce the game concept for new players) and a fifth column for applicable modifiers (gear, adept powers, etc.) but I know real estate will be at a premium.

I agree that it would be ideal to keep the mechanics to a single (double-sided) page for ease of use. However, what would also be tremendously useful would be a second page with character-specific descriptions, tactics, and hooks. (Umaro put these on the first page of his Google Docs.) I like what you've done with the "Why play this character" and "Mechanical Strengths/Weaknesses" sections, which are amusing, but could be built out more to provide additional opportunities for new players to connect with their characters.

As a lower priority, I also appreciated how Umaro also listed out suggested avenues for advancement, including nuyen purchases and karma expenditures. Those helped to provide a vision for what the character could be in the future, which could be another hook to keep them coming back.

Again, good job. I'll keep checking back.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Marcus on <03-22-18/1322:02>
No lucha Libre has 1 in unarmed combat!! They can't bring honor to their ancestors with a pool of 4!!
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-22-18/1702:16>
This a commendable project and I salute the effort.

Hobbes, I know UmaroVI predated your arrival on the forums by a couple years but he did the same thing for 4th Edition. (His thread is stickied at the top of the Character Creation thread.) This project seems philosophically identical to his, namely to make Missions-legal characters for new players while minimizing complications and fiddly options. The first post of Umaro's thread lays out his approach nicely and at extreme length.

My main critique is going to be of the formatting. The goofy fonts on the first page make my head hurt and take up too much space. The "#, # (#)" format for skill ratings and dice pools will melt brains. Instead I might recommend a 3-column table:

Skill Name (Specialization)Skill Rating     Dice Pool
Shadowrun (Chargen)6 (+2)12 (14)
Internet Commentary (Snark)4 (+2)10 (12)
Unarmed Combat (Lucha Libre)     1 (+2)2 (4)

In a perfect world there would be a fourth column for the linked attribute (to help reinforce the game concept for new players) and a fifth column for applicable modifiers (gear, adept powers, etc.) but I know real estate will be at a premium.

I agree that it would be ideal to keep the mechanics to a single (double-sided) page for ease of use. However, what would also be tremendously useful would be a second page with character-specific descriptions, tactics, and hooks. (Umaro put these on the first page of his Google Docs.) I like what you've done with the "Why play this character" and "Mechanical Strengths/Weaknesses" sections, which are amusing, but could be built out more to provide additional opportunities for new players to connect with their characters.

As a lower priority, I also appreciated how Umaro also listed out suggested avenues for advancement, including nuyen purchases and karma expenditures. Those helped to provide a vision for what the character could be in the future, which could be another hook to keep them coming back.

Again, good job. I'll keep checking back.

Thank you, all of these things were considered at one point in time.  Real Estate and time investment are my main constraints.  Eventually they'll all be a two page mechanical sheet with most of those notes and a character tent for the fluff, but that won't happen for a while and I've got a couple Cons coming up soon.  :  )

The goofy fonts will stay for now.  They actually print up nicely and help "sell" the character, and I'll get some feedback at the tables.

I'll do the next batch in Google Sheets and see if that helps the formating.  I was trying to avoid creating a custom sheet from the ground up...

Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-24-18/1951:54>
New Format.  Troll Physical Adept this time, includes Character Tent.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1raCGOkdoSuwzgbErvIwbM35qhyGVZ3mG/view?usp=sharing

Updated OP with a couple character tents.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Marcus on <03-24-18/2015:49>
New Format.  Troll Physical Adept this time, includes Character Tent.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1raCGOkdoSuwzgbErvIwbM35qhyGVZ3mG/view?usp=sharing

Updated OP with a couple character tents.

Come on now Hobbes, that's just terrible. Attribute boosts are terrible waste of action economy, adrenaline boost ugh, adding str to a troll while your using a knife and not even focus then adding death dealer on top of that?? Come on man drop that nonsense, put some real init on that character, some decent combat sense, give it a nice weapon focus katana, and stop making adepts look bad. Swapping thunderbird for stag would be nice too.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Lorebane24 on <03-24-18/2140:50>
I'm a little late here, but did you ever figure out the rules on "Like a Boss?"  That is probably my absolute favorite code of honor.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Tecumseh on <03-25-18/0100:41>
I think the format is a step in the right direction.

Some thoughts in no particular order:

1) I'd probably left justify all the columns on the skill table. In other words, don't center Attributes and Dice Pool.

2) There seems to be some inconsistency about what's included in the final dice pool. For example, you included the Intimidation bonus from Thunderbird but not the Improved Ability dice for Blades.

3) Many people find that new players have an easier time with passive powers (Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense) than active powers (Adrenaline Boost, Attribute Boost) that they may not know to use. I'm not saying you can't include them, but I would echo my previous advice of a short section with tips on "how to play this character".

4) I would have concerns around the drain for Adrenaline Boost. Right now this chummer here is only going to soak half of it on average, and a 3-box hit of drain is going to taste sour to many players, especially new players. If this were a bigger troll - what does a troll with minimum Body and maximum Strength look like anyway? - then it would be less of a concern, but right now chummer is going to get slapped with drain almost every time he/she pops Adrenaline Boost.

5) It'd be advantageous to separate qualities into Positive and Negative. I had to look up Watch the Suit. When I did, I was reminded that it was a positive quality, not a negative one. When I first saw it on the sheet, I thought the description was an imperative: "stay clean in a fight" ... OR ELSE. I was confusing it with Social Appearance Anxiety, which - for the record - would be an interesting quality for a character who specializes in getting elbow-deep in his or her opponents.

6) An interesting variation on this character would be to specialize in Throwing Weapons instead of Blades. That would give the character a ranged option and would still let them hit hard. Maybe not like a sniper rifle, as you say in the notes, but perhaps like an assault rifle. Missile Mastery and Precision Throwing are fun powers. Plus, I find that new players often like characters that can be dangerous in any situation. (I presume this is why so many of them take Skills A and then max out the Firearms skill group.)

7) What is Death Dealer? That's not ringing a bell for me.

8) You need a comma and a space after "Camping" instead of the new line you have right now. There's other funny formatting too. Currently "Troll" and "Nuyen" are next to each other with no punctuation. I spent a moment thinking, "WTF is Troll Nuyen? A typo for Total Nuyen?" But, no, just Chummer formatting with spaces instead of new lines.

9) Don't forget the Intimidation bonus from the custom ballistic mask.

10) He has ¥990 but only an R1 commlink? Was that intentional or did he just roll like a boss on his Low lifestyle starting nuyen?

That's all for now. Keep them coming.

Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Marcus on <03-25-18/0643:30>
What is Death Dealer? That's not ringing a bell for me.

It's an FA quality that increases dmg. Thus a knife attack that as strong as panzer assault cannon.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-25-18/1241:34>
New Format.  Troll Physical Adept this time, includes Character Tent.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1raCGOkdoSuwzgbErvIwbM35qhyGVZ3mG/view?usp=sharing

Updated OP with a couple character tents.

Come on now Hobbes, that's just terrible. Attribute boosts are terrible waste of action economy, adrenaline boost ugh, adding str to a troll while your using a knife and not even focus then adding death dealer on top of that?? Come on man drop that nonsense, put some real init on that character, some decent combat sense, give it a nice weapon focus katana, and stop making adepts look bad. Swapping thunderbird for stag would be nice too.

Down in the mechanical notes it states how to manage the action economy.  The character can boost and attack in the same round thanks to the Rapid Draw Power so it works fine.  Adding a Focus would mean Skills E, I didn't want to do that on a Pre-gen.  Rating 1 Improved Reflexes doesn't get to three actions reliably, Adrenaline Boost guarantees three actions.  I would have to scare up an additional PP to get to Rating 2 Improved Reflexes, and still not guaranteed 3 actions.

Improved Str and Death Dealer aren't affected by Background Count, which is kinda why they're on the sheet.  Really the only thing that Background count matters for is the Blades skill on this character.  13 + (3 + Agility Boost - BGC) is usually going to be around 15 Dice.

Action economy is fiddly, but it's an Adept that can (almost) ignore background count.  I figure moderate dice pool but hits like a sniper rifle would work out most of the time.  And 100% optimization isn't really the goal, I wanted to make sure the character had a decent secondary contribution.  Thus Mortimer's, Thunder Bird, and Watch the Suit. 

I'll see about tweaking the powers after I get the rest of the stuff up as the character is kind of squishy for a Troll Adept.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-25-18/1242:12>
I'm a little late here, but did you ever figure out the rules on "Like a Boss?"  That is probably my absolute favorite code of honor.

per Missions FAQ 1.4 "Like a Boss" is allowed.
Title: Re: Newbie friendly pre-gens.
Post by: Hobbes on <03-25-18/1249:06>
I think the format is a step in the right direction.

Some thoughts in no particular order:

1) I'd probably left justify all the columns on the skill table. In other words, don't center Attributes and Dice Pool.

2) There seems to be some inconsistency about what's included in the final dice pool. For example, you included the Intimidation bonus from Thunderbird but not the Improved Ability dice for Blades.

3) Many people find that new players have an easier time with passive powers (Improved Reflexes, Combat Sense) than active powers (Adrenaline Boost, Attribute Boost) that they may not know to use. I'm not saying you can't include them, but I would echo my previous advice of a short section with tips on "how to play this character".

4) I would have concerns around the drain for Adrenaline Boost. Right now this chummer here is only going to soak half of it on average, and a 3-box hit of drain is going to taste sour to many players, especially new players. If this were a bigger troll - what does a troll with minimum Body and maximum Strength look like anyway? - then it would be less of a concern, but right now chummer is going to get slapped with drain almost every time he/she pops Adrenaline Boost.

5) It'd be advantageous to separate qualities into Positive and Negative. I had to look up Watch the Suit. When I did, I was reminded that it was a positive quality, not a negative one. When I first saw it on the sheet, I thought the description was an imperative: "stay clean in a fight" ... OR ELSE. I was confusing it with Social Appearance Anxiety, which - for the record - would be an interesting quality for a character who specializes in getting elbow-deep in his or her opponents.

6) An interesting variation on this character would be to specialize in Throwing Weapons instead of Blades. That would give the character a ranged option and would still let them hit hard. Maybe not like a sniper rifle, as you say in the notes, but perhaps like an assault rifle. Missile Mastery and Precision Throwing are fun powers. Plus, I find that new players often like characters that can be dangerous in any situation. (I presume this is why so many of them take Skills A and then max out the Firearms skill group.)

7) What is Death Dealer? That's not ringing a bell for me.

8) You need a comma and a space after "Camping" instead of the new line you have right now. There's other funny formatting too. Currently "Troll" and "Nuyen" are next to each other with no punctuation. I spent a moment thinking, "WTF is Troll Nuyen? A typo for Total Nuyen?" But, no, just Chummer formatting with spaces instead of new lines.

9) Don't forget the Intimidation bonus from the custom ballistic mask.

10) He has ¥990 but only an R1 commlink? Was that intentional or did he just roll like a boss on his Low lifestyle starting nuyen?

That's all for now. Keep them coming.

Thanks, I'll update the formatting this week, I'll update dice pools to include all passives.  Build suggestions are noted along with Marcus's, i.e. I'll tweak it a bit more later.

Thanks again for taking the time to review and post!