Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: adimar on <05-13-11/0732:52>

Title: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: adimar on <05-13-11/0732:52>
Hi All, I have an economy question.
How does availability of legal items come into being. (no talking about papa supply and mama demand meeting and 9 month later.... ;))
If no special circumstances exist than if an item is in demand (at a quoted price) than it will be manufactured and sold the demanding public. i.e. if i want a television (legal one, I'll get to stolen goods later.) there is no need to go to the black market and acquire one I just go to the local radio shack.
The only a couple of cases where actual availability might come into being is:
1) Extreme shortages that can not be supplied (dew to lack of raw materials etc). Normally this would lead to spiking prices but the government might mandate a fixed price and limit consumption by some rationing system there by establishing a black market scene. (WW Britain comes to mind).
2) In a state planned economy (like the soviet union) where the system isn't capable of coping with shifts in demand.
3) Items that are so "high end" that their very shortage makes them desirable. Super high end sport cars come to mind. these are produced by hand not because technology can't produce the quality but because their availability is kept "artificially" low.

Lets look at a piece of cyberware. Skill wires for example, it's completely legal but acquiring one with a high rating is very problematic. If I want a skill wires system I should be able to just go the local Cyborgs R Us outlet and get it installed, If this is a low demand system that they don't keep in stock than I might have to order one up (paying in advance), waiting for the system to arrive and that getting it installed.
There shouldn't be any AVAILABILITY where even if the desired item is legal and I have the money to pay for it. I still can't buy it.
If I'm willing to go black markets than illegally acquired items are actually sold at a cheaper price.

Adi

P.S. I know I'm luckier than 90% of the world's population having been born into a western society middle class family. (10x mom & dad)
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-13-11/0748:33>
If an item lists an Availability rating, that means it's a Controlled Item/Substance, meaning that detailed records are kept of those that purchase it. Yes, you could go to the mall and get Skill Wires installed. But then you are on a list that you bought them and had them installed. And since you're going through legitimate channels, they are going to want a SIN, which means you better have a really good fake SIN if you don't want them to know it's you.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: adimar on <05-13-11/0808:13>
Yes, you could go to the mall and get Skill Wires installed.... But then you are on a list that you bought them and had them installed.
For the vast majority of the equipment this is not a problem.
I Especially liked  the fluff piece in one of the shadowrun products talking about a wage slave getting a sleep regulator (10K NY/Av 8 ) so he could stay up all night and play rpgs (talk about wish list items ;))
And since you're going through legitimate channels, they are going to want a SIN, which means you better have a really good fake SIN if you don't want them to know it's you.
Or I could just give them my real SIN. (If it's not hot).
The SINner (regular not criminal) should be a 5 point advantage not a 5 point disadvantage.

Adi
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: flatlyne2001 on <05-13-11/0934:59>
The SINner (regular not criminal) should be a 5 point advantage not a 5 point disadvantage.
Adi
[/quote]

Oh no it shouldn't it is a big disadvantage, the minute you leave any trace of you(fingerprint/blood/skin/hair) they can tie it to you since you are on record.

That in my opinion is NOT an advantage :)
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Tsuzua on <05-13-11/1353:06>
I've never really liked the 4th edition availability rules.  It seems getting nearly anything a huge pain in the neck in a "time to buy a car, gotta take a 3 weeks vacation" sort of way, while at the same time making it so only faces can get stuff.  I do like SR4M's contacts can just find stuff for you at a modest fee roughly once a week rules in that regard which is honestly just a hack over the entire thing.

There's also the fact that if you play sufficiently grimdark, Shadowrun actually isn't a captialist society at all, but rather a feudal society with assault rifles. 

As for the SINner quality, it can be an advantage, disadvantage, or a wash entirely based on how the GM approaches the world.  If the GM has a world where everyone actually focuses on solving crimes and stopping criminals then having a SIN is bad news.  However not having a SIN only buys you a little more time if that since they'll just make you a criminal SIN and fill in the details as they find them.  Either way, they'll be able to put two and two together and you'll need fake SINs regardless.

If the GM isn't as strict when it comes to evidence, yeah having the SINner quality is a free 5 points.  Considering the joke that is negative qualities in general, 5 free points from SINner isn't that bad.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-13-11/1448:35>
Quote
If the GM isn't as strict when it comes to evidence

"So who picked up all their shell casings? That's what I thought. Role for initiative."
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: flatlyne2001 on <05-13-11/1458:43>
Quote
"So who picked up all their shell casings? That's what I thought. Role for initiative."

Doesn't everyone wear gloves when they load their guns?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Medicineman on <05-13-11/1520:15>
Quote
If the GM isn't as strict when it comes to evidence

"So who picked up all their shell casings? That's what I thought. Role for initiative."
Shell casings ?
what Shell casings ?
all my guns use caseless Ammo !
And btT
Availiability is for when You want to buy an Item Yourself.
If its legal my Chars order  it via matrix with a fake SIN
If its Illegal they pay their Fixer and thats it. No hassle with Avail anymore

hough
Medicineman
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-13-11/1554:03>
There's also the fact that if you play sufficiently grimdark, Shadowrun actually isn't a captialist society at all, but rather a feudal society with assault rifles.
I like this.  +1.  And I may have a new direction for character creation.

It does seem strange to have availability in such a completely consumerist culture, but yeah, I can see it as how long it takes to make it fall off a truck.  Still seems odd that you can't use one of your lower quality SINs and burn it.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-13-11/1645:17>
Quote
If the GM isn't as strict when it comes to evidence
"So who picked up all their shell casings? That's what I thought. Role for initiative."
Caseless Ammo, lots of advantages.

Now, the question is:  Who has swapped out their barrels/ditched and replaced firearms?  Hey, look at that, all those 'Runs you made against the various corporations, all the security companies are actually owned by one Mega, and they DO share data between them.  Oops.

That's why I swear by AK-97s.  Cheap, replaceable.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-13-11/1648:24>
Alternatively, there's always incinediary arrows.  Or exploding bullets.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-13-11/1652:48>
Quote
Caseless Ammo, lots of advantages.

Call me a cynic, but I just don' think brand new runners get easy and affordable access to all the new toys and bells and whistles.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Medicineman on <05-13-11/1656:35>
Quote
Caseless Ammo, lots of advantages.

Call me a cynic, but I just don' think brand new runners get easy and affordable access to all the new toys and bells and whistles.
Caseless Guns are standard Weapons in SR4A,cynic !

HokaHey
Medicineman
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Critias on <05-13-11/1838:30>
Quote
Caseless Ammo, lots of advantages.

Call me a cynic, but I just don' think brand new runners get easy and affordable access to all the new toys and bells and whistles.
Caseless ammo's been the rule, not the exception, for several editions now.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-13-11/1842:51>
Not in my games.  ;)

If you don't make them work for it, then they won't appreciate it.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-14-11/1320:58>
Not in my games.  ;)
You making big changes to the world and then making comments based on that doesn't really have any place in conversations like this.  8)
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-14-11/1417:58>
Yeah, it's generally assumed that unless you say otherwise, you're talking about the rules as written.

If you're discussing a houserule, it's good form to let people know that first.



-k
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1725:41>
How is that a big change? So anyone, especially without a SIN, can walk into a big box and go grocery shopping for all the latest and greatest? No, that's asinine. That's not just a house rule; it's common sense with a dose of reality. The great stuff doesn't just fall off the back of a truck. It has to be acquired. Then it's marked up significantly. And the fixers and dealers are gonna save the best merch for their primo clients. Beginning runners get common goods. What they can find easily on the streets.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-14-11/1744:06>
How is that a big change? So anyone, especially without a SIN, can walk into a big box and go grocery shopping for all the latest and greatest?
Caseless ammo isn't latest and greatest, it's old as hell technology that is just as commonly available as cased ammo.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1759:16>
So if you go into Bass Pro Shops, or Walmart, right now you can pick up caseless ammo? Not that I've seen. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen it.

Point is this. Those kinds of items are regulated now, in a fairly unregulated gun owning society. So, in the imaginary future of 2070 where Corps and gov'ts have a vested interest in controlling access (especially to the SINless and potential runners), do you really think it would be easier? Do you really think a brand new runner has the contacts or resources to purchase a whole bunch of brand new, TOL equipment? How does that make the slightest bit of sense.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-14-11/1807:20>
Those kinds of items are regulated now, in a fairly unregulated gun owning society.
What kind of items are you talking about, there are 0 guns that use caseless ammo out in the general market, mostly because they haven't gotten it to work yeat.
Do you really think a brand new runner has the contacts or resources to purchase a whole bunch of brand new, TOL equipment?
But in shadowruns world every single firearm in existence is available as using caseless ammo or cased ammo, what ever the buyer prefers and there are no legal difference  what so ever between the 2.
So the new runner doesn't need anykind of special contacts or recources to buy caseless ammo or the guns firing them.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-14-11/1807:45>
Alternatively, could you have imagined thirty years ago, anyone owning a computer?  And something with more processing power than what we sent to the Moon is commonplace now.

I can go down to the local Walmart for regular ammo.  When caseless ammo become standard, and cased ammo becomes a weirdo historical thing (like blackpowder), I assume it will be standard.
And, as an anecdote I don't get to use often enough, I where I used to live I could bike down to the local range/store and buy grenades.  Or an 'airplane shooting down' Barrett rifle.

I generally joked about going down to the local 'Ammu-nation'.  While they might have a vested interest in control, they have a bigger interest in making bank.  And hiring those self-same runners for work.  And possibly pay-per-view SINless gunfights.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Operator on <05-14-11/1817:27>
Cass, I don't understand the importance that you're trying to impart to caseless weapons and ammunition that makes it separate from cased guns and ammo. If you're attempting to say that they are preferable to cased ammo for evidence concerns, then your players should have a heads-up warning at the start of the game.

Since there's little in the way of benefits associated with cased/caseless ammo aside of electronic firing, I am led to believe that it is not an area of weapon design and runner methodology that needs additional gameplay emphasis. If runners use caseless ammo to commit their crimes, what's stopping Shadowrun-era CSI techniques from analyzing propellant residues and markings left behind?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-14-11/1824:32>
Or, you know, DNA evidence.  An ammo catcher bag (looks dorky as all hell, but it catches the cases coming out of your gun) is cheap; Genewipe costs an arm and a leg.
Remember kids, don't shop at Tanamous!
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1826:03>
Quote
mostly because they haven't gotten it to work yeat.

Yes, they do have working weapons with caseless ammo. The Army tested them out. I would imagine if you can buy a machine gun with a class 3 license, then something like this wouldn't be that hard to get beyond availability.

Quote
Cass, I don't understand the importance

It wasn't important. I make changes in my games that make logical sense to me. Personally, I prefer a dose of reality to my sci-fi and fantasy. Different strokes for different folks. My only reason for responding further is the inaccurate idea that I'm making "big" changes to the universe. That's just plain silly.

The computer is a bad analogy. The computer was never designed with the intent to kill or maim. Of course some people have used it as such, but oh well. Firearms, of course, are different. To assume that gun laws and availability would become more lax in a decidedly more authoritarian world makes no sense. It makes no sense that you would think/ allow a brand new group of runners to better armed than the elite of the elite (Red Samurai, Wildcats, etc.). So, once again. I'm not saying your game is wrong. Neither is mine.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-14-11/1833:51>
My only reason for responding further is the inaccurate idea that I'm making "big" changes to the universe. That's just plain silly.
It doesn't matter whether you think its a big change or not, if your basing your post on that change, you better mention it or just not post the comment at all as it has no place on a discussion about the actual shadowrun world.

And yes changing caseless ammo to top of the line brand new tech is pretty damm big change to the world.
In the standart shadowrun world the caseless ammo has been the standart for 20+ years.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-14-11/1838:17>
Cool, cool.  For me, this is like picking at a scab.  I shouldn't do it, but it's so tempting.

...though I wonder how hard it is to make?  Like, there's a ton of Kalashnikovs floating around the third world, and I've heard a bunch are locally produced.  Maybe there's some Stanistani warlord making a bundle shipping boatloads of cheap caseless ammo.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1841:46>
Quote
you better mention it or just not post the comment at all as it has no place on a discussion about the actual shadowrun world.

::) Really? Would you like me to ask your permission to log on to my computer as well. This is general Shadowrun discussion. I'm pretty sure "the rules" is further down the page. Whatever dude.

Quote
it doesn't matter whether you think its a big change or not

Yeah. Doesn't matter if you do either.

Quote
Maybe there's some Stanistani warlord making a bundle shipping boatloads of cheap caseless ammo.

Now this I could run with. Something logical or at least thought. Assumptions just annoy the hell out of me.


Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-14-11/1849:51>
This is general Shadowrun discussion.
Key word being Shadowrun, if you make comments based on your personal game world and not the standard one, it's common courtesy to mention all the relevant differences, helps to avoid a whole lot of confusion.

Yes, they do have working weapons with caseless ammo. The Army tested them out. I would imagine if you can buy a machine gun with a class 3 license, then something like this wouldn't be that hard to get beyond availability.
If you know any other then H&K G11 i would like a link for info, G11 you cant buy because they didn't make much more then 1000 of them AFAIK and H&K doesn't really like to sell stuff to civilians as far as i have understood from comments of people who would like to get their hands on to their guns.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1926:51>
Quote
they didn't make much more then 1000

Glad you found the wiki. And anything can be bought. If you can buy a machine gun legally, I think it's logical that one of these can be purchased. Guess it depends on availability!  :o

If you google "hk", the first page that pops up is a link to H&K North America. They have a whole section devoted to civilian firearms. The H&K 556 is popular, if not overpriced. The USP .45 is a very popular handgun; probably the most popular non-1911 .45's. You can even get it with a threaded barrel for a silencer, which can be purchased with a class 3 license.

If you google caseless ammo rifles, a whole bunch of options pop up. The guns exist. From what I've seen it's the availability and price of ammo that make them a very niche product.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-14-11/1928:30>
Quote
you better mention it or just not post the comment at all as it has no place on a discussion about the actual shadowrun world.

::) Really? Would you like me to ask your permission to log on to my computer as well. This is general Shadowrun discussion. I'm pretty sure "the rules" is further down the page. Whatever dude.

I said it before, there needs to be a basis of reference. Without anything else modifying the conversations, people entering into the discussion are going to assume you are talking about the unmodified rules as written.

If you are discussing something else, it it just common courtesy to let the other folks you are talking to know this.

If you jumped into a discussion on chess, the assumption would be that you are discussing the standard chess rules. If you wanted to discuss a variant you had come up with, you should start off saying it's a variant, not just jump in as if it ere part of the regular rules and then act all surprised when people get confused.

Really, at heart, it is about conveying your message effectively. If the person you are talking to does not have the same frame of reference as you do, any discussion will inevitably cause confusion and lessen the impact of what you are trying to say.



-k
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-14-11/1933:28>
Quote
they didn't make much more then 1000

Glad you found the wiki.

If you google "hk", the first page that pops up is a link to H&K North America. They have a whole section devoted to civilian firearms. The H&K 556 is popular, if not overpriced. The USP .45 is a very popular handgun; probably the most popular non-1911 .45's. You can even get it with a threaded barrel for a silencer, which can be purchased with a class 3 license.

If you google caseless ammo rifles, a whole bunch of options pop up. The guns exist. From what I've seen it's the availability and price of ammo that make them a very niche product.

He probably didn't need the wiki. The G11 is a favorite of many gamers. I'd point out that while I don't know Max's background, there are quite a number of current and former military folks on the Shadowrun boards, so extensive personal knowledge of firearms isn't uncommon here.

There is only one production line model of a caseless ammunition weapon in existence in the world today. And that one has barely shipped to any customers.

There have been other developmental prototypes made in the past, but nothing that had made it to open usage. Just about all of them have been rejected for production by various governments for various reasons.



-k
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1937:41>
Quote
There are no production line models of a caseless ammunition weapon in existence in the world today. Period.

Umm...that's just flat out wrong, but I'm not going to argue with you about it. Simple research proves that wrong.

As I said, I'm easy. I'm not saying anyone's game is wrong. But stating that I'm making "big changes" to the world and trying to prove so is just stupid.

Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-14-11/1945:05>
Apologies. There is one. I have modified my message to reflect this.

Does this change the conversation any?

Again, the point is not whether changes are wrong, or if they're big or small. The point is that unless you should let people know that you are not talking about what they are talking about. Common courtesy. That's all.



-k
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/1950:39>
Two actually. Daisy tried to call there's an "air rifle" but the BATF said, no. lol

That was never the point, though. As I said, I make changes to my games that make sense to me. I base those decisions on some sort of logical application. Okay, Okay I didn't put up the neon sign saying that was my house rule. Got it. Still the topic is availability and whatnot so I offered my two cents. I was apparently wrong for sharing a perspective that kept anyone's favorite Street Sam from buying TOL toys when they just started their professional criminal career. I'll know better next time.  :-X
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-14-11/1955:58>
Thank you. You'll notice how badly the discussion got derailed? This is why it's a good idea to make sure people know what you're talking about.

I will admit I had forgotten about the Voere and Daisy rifles. They have had so little penetration into the gun market that I had I guess mentally dismissed them as insignificant. I do recall the Daisy, aside from the BATF ruling, had potential ammo problems with temperature, as the glob of propellent on the rear or each bullet was ignited by hot air. Not something I'd want in my house.



-k
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-14-11/2010:06>
Of course, if the players really want that weapon?  Roll up a Logic 13 Armorer 7 badass and build it themselves.  In a CAVE!  With a box of scraps!
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-14-11/2015:15>
I knew a guy who collected niche weapons and that's the first I'd heard of the Voere. I started doing a lot of research on caseless ammo about 6 years ago. I was p****d that we (US Army) was spending so much on the XM8 when we could just get everyone a carbine and be done with it. During the testing I came across the various incarnations of weapons to replace the M2, newer squad machine guns, etc.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Exodus on <05-14-11/2133:54>
My 2cents about this.

1. The historical problem with caseless ammo is that the casing itself is a wonderful vehicle for heat to be ejected cleanly out of the weapon, caseless weapons have issues with heat buildup and ammo cookoff. In 2070 they have fixed this to the point that having casings raining from your AK-97 is a purely aesthetic choice, that and leaving evidence behind.

2. Availability in 2070, it's my opinion that there's 2 very broad tiers of equipment and gear in the world of Shadowrun. There's the weapons and gear and commlinks that we see in the books all statted out for our viewing pleasure and there's the crap that the wageslaves buy. There have been several mentions of vending-machine grade commlinks and clothing and I feel that if you went to KongWalMart to pick up ammo you'd get Light Pistol plinking rounds that apply a -1 DV penalty for their low production quality and the round fails to fire on a glitch, on a critical glitch the round fails to fire and fires off on the next initiative pass.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-14-11/2225:48>
Hah!  If you really don't want to have to deal with shell casings or caseless ammo, get yourself an Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle; no shellcasings, and often no target, either. ;D
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: savaze on <05-14-11/2227:19>
Caseless Ammo, lots of advantages.

Now, the question is:  Who has swapped out their barrels/ditched and replaced firearms?  Hey, look at that, all those 'Runs you made against the various corporations, all the security companies are actually owned by one Mega, and they DO share data between them.  Oops.

That's why I swear by AK-97s.  Cheap, replaceable.
That's why I'm convinced that RFID rounds are the standard market stuff and 'Regular' ammo is black market only stuff...

IRL there are several varieties of caseless ammo floating around that's been talked about in other threads (http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1386.msg15908#msg15908). As far as weapons that get research contracts, like a lot of H&K and Colt weapons (I agree with this Class III dealer (http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/) that hk isn't nearly on par with what you pay for), but that's politics in it purest form.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Exodus on <05-14-11/2237:00>
I'm going to include that RFID-stamped ammo for civilians biz in my game now. If the team shakes down some civvie and gets a measly 2P gutshot from a holdout for their troubles then they ought to have to worry about the cops doing something about it.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-15-11/0358:22>
If you google "hk", the first page that pops up is a link to H&K North America. They have a whole section devoted to civilian firearms. The H&K 556 is popular, if not overpriced. The USP .45 is a very popular handgun; probably the most popular non-1911 .45's. You can even get it with a threaded barrel for a silencer, which can be purchased with a class 3 license.
Yes they have a very small selection of civilian guns. But, really the only reason you can't buy MP5 or G36 is that H&K just flat out doesn't want to sell them to you. there's really nothing special about their much larger non-civilian line that would legally stop you from buying them if they would just sell them.
I was apparently wrong for sharing a perspective that kept anyone's favorite Street Sam from buying TOL toys when they just started their professional criminal career. I'll know better next time.  :-X
No thats not it in the least, the problem was you changing caeless ammo into top of the line gear without mentioning it and then basing your comment to that change, when the rest of us are basing our answers to the following line from the gear section.
Quote
Firearms
Firearms are primarily slug-throwers. Many weapons offer two versions,
for standard loads or for caseless ammunition, though the latter is far
more common in the 2070s. A weapon can fire either type of ammunition,
but not both interchangeably.
That same line has been in every corebook of the whole game,they just change the year.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Operator on <05-15-11/0442:45>
I'm going to include that RFID-stamped ammo for civilians biz in my game now. If the team shakes down some civvie and gets a measly 2P gutshot from a holdout for their troubles then they ought to have to worry about the cops doing something about it.

I knew that there was a good reason for taking a tag eraser in chargen. ;)
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-15-11/1125:23>
Tag Eraser built into your Lined Duster is one of the best investments you can make.  :D
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-15-11/1202:25>
Quote
really the only reason you can't buy MP5 or G36

Factually untrue. I know more than few people with FFL's and an MP5. And the G36 can be bought by buying the Sl8 and then purchasing a .223/ 5.56 conversion kit. Presto, chango, you now have a G36. Holy Jeebus does anyone actually do research around here? This took me more time to write than actually search for the answer.

Quote
No thats not it in the least, the problem was you changing caeless ammo into top of the line gear without mentioning it and then basing your comment to that change, when the rest of us are basing our answers to the following line from the gear section.

I'm pretty positive I made one, maybe two replies, before stating that it was in my game. Everything else has been due to people, much like you, making ignorant comments about firearms trying to prove me wrong. But, the facts do not support said assertions. I am right. In todays world, many of the "cool kid" guns are available, yet highly restricted and very expensive. A brand new criminal, starting his criminal career is not going to have the several grand to toss around buying the cool kid toys. That makes no sense. So if you want to continue this, you are welcome to PM me, but the fact is you are wrong, you apparently have no clue about firearms or what your talking about, and would prefer not to continue a conversation with people who cannot do a modicum of research.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Medicineman on <05-15-11/1252:45>
A brand new criminal, starting his criminal career is not going to have the several grand to toss around buying the cool kid toys.
With RAW he can have up to 250 (or with a little tweaking 300)  Grand  for his ...Cool Kid Toys.
(Or if You play SR3 or use a converted Char Up to 1 MIO ¥ for said Toys)
There are a lot of different Ways to play SR not only Yours and I have to agree (no ,I like to agree :) ) with the others. If You use Houserules, please announce them before You post them as Your "reality" as it helps prevent confusion !

Hough !
Medicineman
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-15-11/1254:26>
Urgh, ninja posters!
Yeah, I find that one sometimes throws me for a loop too.  A 400BP 'runner is apparently supposed to have a couple runs under their belt, plus whatever background they had.
Entry level runners are probably more like the Professional Rating 1 mooks, apparently.  Just be sure to have several spares. :P
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-15-11/1327:44>
Quote
please announce them before You post them as Your "reality" as it helps prevent confusion

Please stop using this as a crutch. I made exactly two posts, only one having to do with caseless ammo, before stating it was my game. The "offending" comment was  nothing dramatic. So stop being drama queens. Sticking to that to justify nonsense assumptions is silly. Once again, fact is you're wrong*. Suck it up. Such is life.

*I said you could PM me if you wanted to continue. So, if you don't, I'll just be not nice.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-15-11/1351:03>
All right guys, Mod Time. Back to your separate corners.

Cass, I think we addressed why people got upset. Yes, your opinion is valid and how you run your game is your own business. The reason for people getting upset is because the OP was asking a question about availability, not how everyone handles Caseless ammo in their games.

Mäx, Karma & others. Point has been made, time to let the issue go and get this thread back on topic. If we can't do that, we'll have to lock the thread.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: savaze on <05-15-11/1403:47>
Factually untrue. I know more than few people with FFL's and an MP5. And the G36 can be bought by buying the Sl8 and then purchasing a .223/ 5.56 conversion kit. Presto, chango, you now have a G36. Holy Jeebus does anyone actually do research around here? This took me more time to write than actually search for the answer.
You are right you can buy most weapons, depending on certain legality issues where ever you live. With H&K they don't like civilians buying their weapons and for a long time you couldn't get them. But eventually a few slipped out and now they are marketing to non-military/police, and they try to restrict who gets their weapons with a crazy mark-up. They wouldn't have been able to sell any of their stuff in the US, due to the whole GCA68 issue, but they started making the weapons locally so they are available. There are still weapons where I live (AZ) that I just can't get without breaking some serious laws, and I live in one of the most firearms enabled states in the country.

Err umm I'll take it down if you like FJ... My posted seemed to stall out while I was in the rest room so you seemed to post before me.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-15-11/1457:18>
The mark up is for the HK and brand name. HK North America couldn't get the 556 out to the civilian market fast enough. And as mentioned earlier, the USP .45 (easily the favorite of military/ paramilitary use) has been on the market for a while. It's the same difference between buying a Taurus or a Colt revolver. Both work great. Both are reliable and well made. But you'll pay more for the Colt stamp on the side. Same with Sig, Kimber, Springfield, etc. You're paying for a legacy of well made firearms.

If you have an FFL, you can get just about damn near anything you want. You can modify weapons. You can ship modified weapons. But you don't need an FFL to buy HK's civilian weapons. All you need is someone to have it shipped to. You may have availability issues, but I don't see any legal issues that would arise from owning HK's weapons. The biggest issue with owning H&K is the markup for brand name, yet they don't perform any better than some of the cheaper brands. But, aesthetically, they are hard to beat.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-15-11/1537:55>
So they come standard with the Custom Look modification?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: savaze on <05-15-11/1712:10>
The mark up is for the HK and brand name. HK North America couldn't get the 556 out to the civilian market fast enough. And as mentioned earlier, the USP .45 (easily the favorite of military/ paramilitary use) has been on the market for a while. It's the same difference between buying a Taurus or a Colt revolver. Both work great. Both are reliable and well made. But you'll pay more for the Colt stamp on the side. Same with Sig, Kimber, Springfield, etc. You're paying for a legacy of well made firearms.

If you have an FFL, you can get just about damn near anything you want. You can modify weapons. You can ship modified weapons. But you don't need an FFL to buy HK's civilian weapons. All you need is someone to have it shipped to. You may have availability issues, but I don't see any legal issues that would arise from owning HK's weapons. The biggest issue with owning H&K is the markup for brand name, yet they don't perform any better than some of the cheaper brands. But, aesthetically, they are hard to beat.
I'm not sure where you're getting the info about the USP being the favorite of military and paramilitary groups, but in the US that's far from true, it's a reliable gun for sure, but that's the only place it shines. The real truth is that H&K has an awesome marketing dept, but they don't climb ahead of anyone else, they're known more for doing their own things whether gun users like it or not (I think that has more to do with how they got started). I'm not trying to slam ya, if your an hk fan, but I can find a weapon at the same or less price point that will outperform it and still be a 'legacy' name brand. Politics and marketing are big influences on what people consider good weapons, but it truly comes down to getting your hands on it and putting the rounds through it. Politics has put Colt and Beretta into military contract when they were never the best. That whole lowest bidder at the time of selection is what determines it and then is changed after the initial purchase, to above market value (the M16/M4 the US is now using aren't even made by Colt anymore but we're still paying that price, some still have the logo but that has more to do with the armorers than anything else). If you've developed the "muscle memory" (I hate using that term, but nobody knows what I'm talking about when I say myelination, I guess Hollywood's to blame for that) with one system then stick with it.

Getting a Class III FFL might cause you more problems than you want if you're not also selling the weapons you're buying (fraud/tax evasion), even then you have to pay to keep it upkept and then apply for the proper paperwork when you quit keeping the FFL current. You're better off just getting the Class C Permit, or whatever it is now, for each weapon from BATFE. There are weapons that you still can't get in the US. The Neostead shotgun is one that most people will recognize and caused a big interest when it came out, but it couldn't/can't clear BATFE for import. Enter Kel-Tec KSG (guess where it's inspiration and market were derived from), which in some ways is a better weapon and in other ways it doesn't address the problems that the NS2000 covered.

I'm talking from my time in law enforcement and subsequent retirement from the military. I'm not an expert on firearms, I'm a pilot, but I have extensive trigger time with many brands and systems of pistols, shotguns, rifles, and "assault weapons." I think it's great if you can get a hold of whatever weapon you like, IMO an armed society is a respectful one, but some just aren't available in certain areas without obtaining them illegally. Ask your FLG, they'll let you know what can and can't be gotten.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-15-11/1742:45>
I'm more of a Colt fan, tbh. I like 1911's. But, you bring up a good point; I was speaking strictly of the US. I disagree as to the military/ paramilitary use, but we can agree to disagree. Hell even the State Dept. was buying H&K's before they moved over to Sig. Everything else you said is generally a re-hash of what I said, so we're in agreement. Just an FYI, Colt wasn't the lowest bidder. Typical Army contracting throws out the lowest and highest bidder and then the rest are evaluated on their particular merits. Anyway, that's a common myth.

As long as you obey the law, having an FFL doesn't cause problems. Don't be stupid with it and you're okay. lol

Quote
So they come standard with the Custom Look modification?

That's an interesting thought. If you go up against a group who all have high end equipment, or if your team does, would there be an intimidation factor? Basic assumptions being that these people went with the best, should know how to use it, and if it's uniform, are being bankrolled.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-15-11/1801:12>
Factually untrue. I know more than few people with FFL's and an MP5. And the G36 can be bought by buying the Sl8 and then purchasing a .223/ 5.56 conversion kit. Presto, chango, you now have a G36. Holy Jeebus does anyone actually do research around here? This took me more time to write than actually search for the answer.
You are right you can buy most weapons, depending on certain legality issues where ever you live. With H&K they don't like civilians buying their weapons and for a long time you couldn't get them. But eventually a few slipped out and now they are marketing to non-military/police, and they try to restrict who gets their weapons with a crazy mark-up. They wouldn't have been able to sell any of their stuff in the US, due to the whole GCA68 issue, but they started making the weapons locally so they are available. There are still weapons where I live (AZ) that I just can't get without breaking some serious laws, and I live in one of the most firearms enabled states in the country.

Err umm I'll take it down if you like FJ... My posted seemed to stall out while I was in the rest room so you seemed to post before me.
As long as you're being polite and talking about availability and such, and not about how to play the game, we're good.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-16-11/1144:17>
I removed a couple of posts and sent the authors a private warning about continuing with the previous argument. Please do not let it happen again.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-16-11/1207:09>
I removed a couple of posts and sent the authors a private warning about continuing with the previous argument. Please do not let it happen again.
Did said note come in the form of, "Now kids, play nice.  Grandpa FastJack is old and cranky." like in the Shadowtalk?  :P

Sorry, couldn't help it.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Medicineman on <05-16-11/1250:00>
Nahhh, Uncle FastJack is not THAT Grouchy  ;D

He who dances on FastJacks Lawn
Medicineman
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-16-11/1407:10>
<<waves cane at the damn kids on his lawn>>

Meh! Getcha movin'!

Back to topic:

Do some GMs wait until runners have garnered enough Karma/Notoriety before they can get Forbidden equipment?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Operator on <05-16-11/1445:11>
I have not yet considered that approach, if only for the fact that my runners have yet to root around in the shadows for forbidden gear. I focus on what they're after and take a reactionary stance from law enforcement according to the nature of the recent runs.

I will pay close attention if they try to sniff it out on their own, or if they employ a fixer during the heat wave. He might take a bigger cut, or encounter complications of his own that can be the basis of an additional shadowrun.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Rockopolis on <05-16-11/1457:15>
Notoriety?  What, "You're not brutal enough to use this gear"?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Operator on <05-16-11/1525:35>
"Sorry bud, you're not slick enough for tailored pheromones." - Tommy the Troll, director of sim pornography
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on <05-16-11/2049:25>
Do some GMs wait until runners have garnered enough Karma/Notoriety before they can get Forbidden equipment?
I've never seen this done before, but I suppose it would depend on where you where operating. some places, Lagos/Bogot'a would probably have more of that kind of gear floating around as they are some of the larger black/shadow markets and there isn't much for a regulating force around to stop them. Places like UCAS's NYC or Aztlan's Tenochtitlan would be more of a tightly restricted market for such things. I figure that Seattle and Denver would fall more in the middle ground in that sense Seattle having such a large number of Corps and other groups represented there, it would make sense that you could find just about anything there, just not all the time or with some difficulties. what do you guys think? Am I close or not even?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-16-11/2335:15>
As argued about earlier,  ;D, that's what I like to do. To me, your crew should have something to work for. It's kinda like FF or any other RPG, you never get the good stuff in the beginning. As you progress though, and become more elite, then you get the cool kid toys. I think it makes the players appreciate the world a little bit more if everything isn't handed to them right from the start.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-17-11/0803:14>
Notoriety?  What, "You're not brutal enough to use this gear"?
More along the lines of "How do I know you're not the cops?"
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-17-11/1412:32>
Notoriety?  What, "You're not brutal enough to use this gear"?
More along the lines of "How do I know you're not the cops?"
Wouldn't that be street cred and not notoriety ;)
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: FastJack on <05-17-11/1452:02>
Notoriety?  What, "You're not brutal enough to use this gear"?
More along the lines of "How do I know you're not the cops?"
Wouldn't that be street cred and not notoriety ;)
Yeah, yeah, yeah... Semantics. ;) Actually, thanks. I was thinking Street Cred and typed Notoriety.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-17-11/1848:20>
Actually, this is how I describe a Loyalty One Connection:  "He knows you're not a cop.".  :P
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: savaze on <05-17-11/2001:15>
Actually, this is how I describe a Loyalty One Connection:  "He knows you're not a cop.".  :P
... but what if you are?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on <05-17-11/2003:47>
Quote from: savaze link=topic=3635.msg46442# :'(msg46442 date=1305676875
Actually, this is how I describe a Loyalty One Connection:  "He knows you're not a cop.".  :P
... but what if you are?
He trusts that you're as straight as a winding road. :P
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-17-11/2103:14>
Quote from: savaze link=topic=3635.msg46442# :'(msg46442 date=1305676875
Actually, this is how I describe a Loyalty One Connection:  "He knows you're not a cop.".  :P
... but what if you are?
He trusts that you're as straight as a winding road. :P
Or a barroom pool cue.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Morg on <05-24-11/0023:40>
Here is a question what about dealing with the sudden equipment flood that a group of PCs gets when they figure out that one of them has the 5 BP sinner disadvantage and make all their Legal shopping through him I made them buy a merchant license, I have a few ideas to discourage this (it is a disadvantage after all) but suggestions would be helpful
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-24-11/0028:14>
Here is a question what about dealing with the sudden equipment flood that a group of PCs gets when they figure out that one of them has the 5 BP sinner disadvantage and make all their Legal shopping through him I made them buy a merchant license, I have a few ideas to discourage this (it is a disadvantage after all) but suggestions would be helpful
What kind of non restricted items are they buying in droves for it to become a problem.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-24-11/0036:28>
Soft Lavatory Paper.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Morg on <05-24-11/0037:53>
Parts for Drones, Parts for Vehicles, SCUBA Gear ect anything that doesn't have an R or an F in its availability and any thing that they think would be tracked as a whole unit they send for its parts and assemble it with their army of MR Fix-it Drones after getting a legal assembly schematic
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on <05-24-11/0054:38>
Parts for Drones, Parts for Vehicles, SCUBA Gear ect anything that doesn't have an R or an F in its availability and any thing that they think would be tracked as a whole unit they send for its parts and assemble it with their army of MR Fix-it Drones after getting a legal assembly schematic
well if any of the things they have him buy legally get damaged and then recovered by law enforcement, they could run the serial numbers and search the matrix for the last person who bought said part/item, if the people searching find the answers, they go track down the person/fixer that had or sold it and effectively start earning either an enemy quality or a contact starts suffering because of it, or something equivalent.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: savaze on <05-24-11/0223:33>
There also might be innocuous parts that when bought in bulk or in addition to other certain parts are tracked because they're on a list "The Man" tracks because they can be made into more dangerous, less legal things... Or is that too paranoid?!
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Morg on <05-24-11/0230:16>
any suggestions on acquisition times for completely legal shopping with a legal SIN?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Black on <05-24-11/0234:39>
any suggestions on acquisition times for completely legal shopping with a legal SIN?

I just had a player buy a tricked out suziki racing bike, but everything was legal and he wanted it built by the dealer/manufacturer.  I just used the normal availability rules.  Ended up being 6 weeks to get the packaged bike into the dealership.  I know its not a perfect system, but works for me.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Medicineman on <05-24-11/0338:28>
any suggestions on acquisition times for completely legal shopping with a legal SIN?
Order Via Matrix ....
"Please allow 24 Hours for Delivery"
Driving to a Shop and buying it personally ,couple of Minutes or maybe Hours
(Just like in real Life)

with a Martrix Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-24-11/0433:34>
There also might be innocuous parts that when bought in bulk or in addition to other certain parts are tracked because they're on a list "The Man" tracks because they can be made into more dangerous, less legal things... Or is that too paranoid?!
Think about the stuff you can buy at a hardware store and a pharmacy that can be turned into drugs.  (There's a reason you can only buy so much cold or allergy medicine at a time, and why they're locked up after a certain hour in some jurisdictions.).  Or, even earlier, someone buying a whole lot of corn and copper line at the same time.

Not paranoid at all.

A sub-contracted assembly company buying a lot of small servomotors and sensors, no issue.  A private citizen buying the same things, flags go up.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: savaze on <05-24-11/0603:15>
Think about the stuff you can buy at a hardware store and a pharmacy that can be turned into drugs.  (There's a reason you can only buy so much cold or allergy medicine at a time, and why they're locked up after a certain hour in some jurisdictions.).  Or, even earlier, someone buying a whole lot of corn and copper line at the same time.

Not paranoid at all.

A sub-contracted assembly company buying a lot of small servomotors and sensors, no issue.  A private citizen buying the same things, flags go up.
It's funny how things that can make drugs are regulated, but the things that you can make that go boom are largely over looked (I use to concoct "stump removal" potions when I was younger so i didn't have to go through all the work of actually pulling them outta the ground)... I wonder what politically motivated innocuous items are regulated like they are now? Are drugs a bigger concern? Incendiaries? Explosives? Firearms? Drones? I guess I could keep going on... Maybe I should have a prolonged look at the gear sections and ponder over what types of items are more consistently illegal and why (excluding obvious weapons and the like)?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Mäx on <05-24-11/0621:39>
Parts for Drones, Parts for Vehicles, SCUBA Gear ect
oKey i really just can't see how players getting these easily can be anykind of a problem, especially as you can pretty damm easily just use a throwh away fake SIN and buy them legally and not have to worry about someone getting their hands on some of those thinks and tracking them back to your legal SIN.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: KarmaInferno on <05-24-11/1133:04>
It's funny how things that can make drugs are regulated, but the things that you can make that go boom are largely over looked (I use to concoct "stump removal" potions when I was younger so i didn't have to go through all the work of actually pulling them outta the ground)...

You might be surprised what gets tracked these days.

For example, one of the things that gets monitored closely now to see who's buying what is the cosmetics industry. Who's buying what ingredients and products, because some can be turned into weapons or poisons.

Home & garden suppliers are also tracked, as are auto parts dealers.

The guvmint's been really paranoid, and not entirely without reason.



-k
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Cass100199 on <05-24-11/1321:46>
@ savaze....just my opinion. Regulating things that can be used in boom concoctions is considered an infringement od 2nd Amendment rightts and faces the wrath of a very powerful political lobby. No one cares that buying fertilizer is tracked, but start tracking gun stuff and hoo boy! Whereas the drug stuff is an extension of the very profitable War on Drugs. The more proactive you appear, the more money you get and the more toys you can buy.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-24-11/1721:59>
There's also the issue of how often those items are used in crimes.

As was pointed out, explosives are mostly used for stump removal, dam bursting, prospecting, and other mundane things all the time, while their use in actual crimes is much less so.

Also, The War On Drugs is a big political hot button topic and that influences a lot as well.

Finally, the restriction on the items in question don't usually impact on John and Jane Q. Public that much (How often do you buy cough medicine in bulk?), while a farmer buying a crate of boomsticks having to jump through hoops would make for some really pissed off farmers, who are a tight-knit community and vote.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: baronspam on <05-25-11/0019:53>
any suggestions on acquisition times for completely legal shopping with a legal SIN?

I just had a player buy a tricked out suziki racing bike, but everything was legal and he wanted it built by the dealer/manufacturer.  I just used the normal availability rules.  Ended up being 6 weeks to get the packaged bike into the dealership.  I know its not a perfect system, but works for me.

If it a special job/build to order situation then even if its legal taking time is reasonable.

If the player was content with a stock model and had the credsticks, then he should be able to walk onto a lot and walk off with one.  The sixth world is nothing if not a consumer society, and if you have the nuyen people will bend over backward to make what you want available. 

For other items mentioned in this thread, like scuba gear, vehicle parts, drone parts, etc, I would think delivered in 24 hours or pick up the same day at the will call door.  Again, unless its custom work or a very rare item I would think someone win Seattle has in in stock and would love to get it into a delivery van for you, once they verify that balance on that account.  Of course, real runners play online with an id token and pick it up in a vehicle that is spoofing its id.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-25-11/0135:53>
Legality also depends on where you are.

Try buying ammunition in Canada IRL, for instance.  Big difference here than in the USA, I bet.
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Teyl_Iliar on <05-25-11/0331:28>
Legality also depends on where you are.

Try buying ammunition in Canada IRL, for instance.  Big difference here than in the USA, I bet.
In the USA, it's as simple as going to walmart or farm and fleet for those in the midwest. not to mention you can get ammo online, or in any range where you shoot. How hard is it in Canada to get ammo?
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: Morg on <05-25-11/0551:31>
Ammo for Hunting Rounds not so hard anything else and ouch!
Title: Re: Legal Items, Availability & The capitalist system
Post by: CanRay on <05-25-11/1110:45>
Legality also depends on where you are.

Try buying ammunition in Canada IRL, for instance.  Big difference here than in the USA, I bet.
In the USA, it's as simple as going to walmart or farm and fleet for those in the midwest. not to mention you can get ammo online, or in any range where you shoot. How hard is it in Canada to get ammo?
You can buy it at Canadian Tire (A major hardware store chain), but you have to provide something like three or four forms of IDs, of which there must be a firearms permit and possibly your registered firearm paperwork just to buy a box of ammo.

And a few conspiracy theorists that I know wonder just how closely tied the purchasing system is with the firearms registry.  If all you have registered is a .22 rifle and a 12-Gauge Shotgun, the RCMP might be knocking on your door when you start buying a few boxes of .303 British Service (One of the most common hunting rifle cartridges in Canada.).