[RHat]

This.  I want to try and avoid this for me at all costs.  I admit, I think it's a bad thing.  Not a bad idea on your part, but...  With what seems like a majority of the gamers on this website taking a quick look at one of the new, major rules updates in the next edition and so easily saying that a) they will actively avoid using what is going to be on almost every piece of equipment (and not in-character, as in, the players and GM will say those things don't work like that) and b) it's because it looks so dumb and irrelevant that it's instantly identifiable as "terrible"...  I hope this sets off some alarms for the guys who designed it.  If I was a designer, even knowing the Houserule Rules, I'd still be worried about how much negative feedback this is getting before the book is even commercially available.

Someone over on Dumpshock pulled up some threads from the SR3 to SR4 conversion.  Let's just say this is par for the course.

[Dinendae]

This.  I want to try and avoid this for me at all costs.  I admit, I think it's a bad thing.  Not a bad idea on your part, but...  With what seems like a majority of the gamers on this website taking a quick look at one of the new, major rules updates in the next edition and so easily saying that a) they will actively avoid using what is going to be on almost every piece of equipment (and not in-character, as in, the players and GM will say those things don't work like that) and b) it's because it looks so dumb and irrelevant that it's instantly identifiable as "terrible"...  I hope this sets off some alarms for the guys who designed it.  If I was a designer, even knowing the Houserule Rules, I'd still be worried about how much negative feedback this is getting before the book is even commercially available.

Someone over on Dumpshock pulled up some threads from the SR3 to SR4 conversion.  Let's just say this is par for the course.

Welcome to the internet. 

[RHat]

This.  I want to try and avoid this for me at all costs.  I admit, I think it's a bad thing.  Not a bad idea on your part, but...  With what seems like a majority of the gamers on this website taking a quick look at one of the new, major rules updates in the next edition and so easily saying that a) they will actively avoid using what is going to be on almost every piece of equipment (and not in-character, as in, the players and GM will say those things don't work like that) and b) it's because it looks so dumb and irrelevant that it's instantly identifiable as "terrible"...  I hope this sets off some alarms for the guys who designed it.  If I was a designer, even knowing the Houserule Rules, I'd still be worried about how much negative feedback this is getting before the book is even commercially available.

Someone over on Dumpshock pulled up some threads from the SR3 to SR4 conversion.  Let's just say this is par for the course.

Welcome to the internet. 

Well, yes, but my point is more this:  The current reaction indicates nothing.  Many of the people who, at the time, were deriding this or that element of SR4 saying that it was definitely terrible and so on went on to actually play the game and find that their opinions shifted.

[firebug]

Someone over on Dumpshock pulled up some threads from the SR3 to SR4 conversion.  Let's just say this is par for the course.

Heh, probably also about changes to the Matrix, too, huh?  "Why would they make everything wireless and vulnerable?"

It's good to hear you believe people's opinions will be shifted.  I think the system is a good idea, it just seems like their current examples of it are poor choices.  Once they iron out what the devices actually need to be connect to for their bonuses to be available, and try to be a little more logical about what options actually make sense (in both terms of possibility and risk) then it'll be great, like how I feel most of 5th edition is leading towards.

[Baquette]

One question about drone rigging

Both the entry for the smart fire platform and the scope suggest that data exchange can only be over the matrix. Even if both the controler (my commlink) and the item (the scrope or the platform) are in mutual signal range, it seems according to the description, that they are not able to be remote controlled or to exchange data

Is that true? Is a direct item to item Wifi even possible in SR4? Because, well it does not seem possible for the platform and the scope?

If yes, what about drones? Can i even directly control my drones if my drone deck/link/whatever and my drone are in mutual signal range? Or do both need to be connected to the matrix as well.

If no, why can drones be directly controlled, but not smart fire platforms (which are a kind of drone as well) and why cant I distribute my pictures via my PAN/Link/deck/signal transmitter and have to use the matrix connection?

MfG

[Baquette]

Well, yes, but my point is more this:  The current reaction indicates nothing.  Many of the people who, at the time, were deriding this or that element of SR4 saying that it was definitely terrible and so on went on to actually play the game and find that their opinions shifted.

Thee is a notable difference from my PoV. When the people read the rules or when the rules were explained the discussions during the launch of SR4 toned down fast. Even the basic book stated that you can turn of wifi and then your cyberlimb could not be hacked. It even took ideas like decoy links etc and put them into Unwired. Now, the new rules has been explained as well (by authors, by JH, by the buyers of SR5 Origin edition". And the more info are released, the more ... is not ok. Your PoV may differ of course.

It´s a little bit sad, because all other new things (like world description, pay level, Karma distribution etc, what has been asked in many other discussions) seems to take second seat against the prevailing discussion on the matrix / online bonuses.

MfG

[RHat]

One question about drone rigging

Both the entry for the smart fire platform and the scope suggest that data exchange can only be over the matrix. Even if both the controler (my commlink) and the item (the scrope or the platform) are in mutual signal range, it seems according to the description, that they are not able to be remote controlled or to exchange data

Is that true? Is a direct item to item Wifi even possible in SR4? Because, well it does not seem possible for the platform and the scope?

If yes, what about drones? Can i even directly control my drones if my drone deck/link/whatever and my drone are in mutual signal range? Or do both need to be connected to the matrix as well.

If no, why can drones be directly controlled, but not smart fire platforms (which are a kind of drone as well) and why cant I distribute my pictures via my PAN/Link/deck/signal transmitter and have to use the matrix connection?

MfG

In the structure SR4 sets up, if your wireless is on you're on the Matrix - there's no such thing as wireless non-Matrix connections.

[KarmaInferno]

Okay, I went back through the list and have broken down the bonuses into several entirely subjective categories. I expect people will disagree with me - that's okay. Please elaborate on why, though, if you do.

(RHat, I ended up with fewer than my original estimation of stuff that definately needs matrix connections, but more in the category of "possible" stuff.)

In general, even at my most liberal counting, only about a third of the bonuses are of the sort that might actually benefit from an actual Matrix connection, rather than mere remote linking of devices. Another third or so if you redefine "Wireless Bonus" to mean "A bonus for devices that communicate remotely and as such might be vulnerable to a hacker tapping into the signal", rather than "a bonus for connecting to the Matrix". And the last third or so that has no business being included in any of this.

A) Gear that definitely requires Matrix access to work, due to needing external information feed or connection:
• Survival Knife: AR-display GPS functions, can be used to make comm-calls.
• Autopicker: DP bonus to pick a lock, due to accessing online database of locks.
• Micro-tranceiver: Range becomes 'worldwide'.

B) Could possibly gain benefit from accessing Matrix, but iffy - Some might benefit from accessing external databases, others might gain benefits from environmental info from sensors in the area, and so on, but it could be argued they could function without it:
• Monofilament Whip: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action, retract instead of entangling on a glitch, +2 Accuracy
• Concealable Holster: Alter pattern and color in real time improving concealability.
• Smartgun System: DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus.
• Flash-Pak: Pak avoids directing flashes at subscribed characters, reducing  penalty
• Thermal Damping: Additional data from surroundings adds a DP bonus to Sneaking.
• Bug Scanner: Substitute device rating for Electronic Warfare skill.
• Vision Enhancement: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception visual skill tests.
• Spacial Recognizer: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception audible skill tests.
• Maglock Passkey: +1 bonus to rating.
• Sequencer: +1 bonus to rating.
• Medkit: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on First Aid skill tests, or by itself at ratingx2.
• Datajack: Adds Rating 1 Noise Reduction
• Skilljack: "The extra boost from the Matrix" increases the total max combined Skillsoft ratings from Ratingx2 to Ratingx3
• Skillwires: +1 Limit to skillsoft tests due to expanded memory cache.
• Gas Mask: Mask analyses air around you.
• Hazmat Suit: Suit analyses environment around you.
• White Noise Generator: Triple effective radius of effect.

C) Requires some kind of remote connection, such as radio or cable link between device and user, but not actual Matrix access - although the remote connection COULD be routed through the Matrix:
• Thermite Burning Bar: Ignite bar remotely.
• Defiance EX Shocker: Successful hit transmits target's health status.
• Yamaha Pulsar: Successful hit transmits target's health status.
• Parashield Dart Pistol & Rifle: Dart reports back to shooter about successful injection, and some basic medical info of target.
• Ares Antioch-2, ArmTech MGL-12, Aztechnology Striker, Onotari Interceptor, all Grenades, Rockets & Missiles: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.
• Airburst Link: Must have Wireless mode on to function at all.
• Imaging Scope: Share camera feed with teammates.
• Smart Firing Platform: Control platform remotely.
• Detonator Cap: Set detonator's timer with a Simple Action, or detonate immediately as a Free Action.
• Data Tap: Self destruct remotely as Free Action.
• Sensor Tags: Monitor sensor feed in real time
• Jammer: Set jammer to not affect specific targets

D) Assuming inductive charging at range even works, requires being in an area with wireless signals, but the devices are not actually using them to communicate, just siphoning power, and as such they shouldn't be vulnerable to hacking:
• Shock Gloves: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Stun Baton: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Fichetti Pain Inducer: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Riot Shield: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Tag Eraser: Slowly recharge via induction.

E) Requires DNI to work, but not remote connection - most of these are "operates faster because commanding with your mind is faster than doing it with your meat hands".:
• Forearm Snap-Blades: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Extendable Baton: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Telescoping Staff: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Bipod/Tripod: Free Action to activate/stow instead of Simple/Complex Action.
• Gyro-Mount: Free Action to Quick Release instead of a Complex Action.
• Hidden Arm Slide: Free Action to ready weapon.
• Electrochromic Clothing:  Free Action to alter color instead of Simple Action.
• Chemical Seal: Free Action to activate instead of Complex Action.
• Fingertip Compartment: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex.
• Internal Air Tank: Activating/Deactivating tank is Free instead of Simple, tank reports current air level.
• Smuggling Compartment, small & large: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex.
• Cyberarm Gyromount: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Cyber Holster: Free Action to ready weapon instead of Simple Action.
• Reaction Enhancers: Allows stacking with Wired Reflexes.
• Wired Reflexes: Allows stacking with Reaction Enhancers.

F) Shouldn't require ANY connection to ANYTHING outside the devices to work. These should work by means as simple as pressing buttons. Seriously.:
• Fichetti Tiffani Needler: Change color of gun as a Simple Action. (Apparently you can't change the color without it)
• Gecko Gloves: Shut off stickiness wirelessly.

G) The "Wait, what?" category. I'll elaborate on each one:

• Silencer/Suppressor: Built in microphone can detect if someone reacts to the sound of the silenced weapon.

So you have a microphone, and presumably some system that can figure out from the varying sounds around you if someone noticed you firing the silenced shot. Despite silenced shots not actually being silent, most are actually pretty freaking loud, just not quite as loud as they would be without the silencer. Okay. Why does this thing need to connect to the Matrix before it can alert you to the incoming opponents?

• Laser Sight: +1 DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus

It's a laser. It makes a dot on the target. The bullet goes where the red dot grows. If it did any kind of target prediction or tracking, it'd be a Smartlink, not a Laser Sight.

• Periscope: Reduce the DP penalty for shooting around corners to -2

This is more a clear mistake than anything else - the listed Wireless Bonus is exactly the same as the regular non-wireless bonus. You use the periscope without the Matrix, it sets the penalty to -2. You use it with the Matrix, and... it sets the penalty to -2.

• Hydraulic Jacks: +1 DP bonus in addition to Limit bonus.

So the Matrix makes my legs jump even harder? Wait, did my name change to Neo or Morpheus now?

• Trauma Patch: Patient stabilizes automatically instead of having to make a test.

How? What? I don't even...

I'm going to get a drink.



-k

[Kudzu]

• Trauma Patch: Patient stabilizes automatically instead of having to make a test.

While I see you point about a lot of the rest of your list, this one is seems pretty easy to handwave away to me-- the wireless access lets the patch access databases to adjust the recommended dose/ combination of chemicals to fit the particular patients gender, metatype, body type, etc. A body 10 troll would need a different amount of meds than a body 2 elf after all.

[LovesTha]

A lot of the ones you are questionable about could be explained by the matrix being extreaemely hostile to non matrix RF traffic. Much like some WiFi routers actively interfere with WiFi traffic in the region that is not on there network.

That wouldn't explain not being able to do it via cable though. Maybe wires with an encumbrance penalty

[RHat]

A) Gear that definitely requires Matrix access to work, due to needing external information feed or connection:
• Survival Knife: AR-display GPS functions, can be used to make comm-calls.
• Autopicker: DP bonus to pick a lock, due to accessing online database of locks.
• Micro-tranceiver: Range becomes 'worldwide'.

I can think of a few other reasons for the Autopicker, but I don't really disagree with anything here.

B) Could possibly gain benefit from accessing Matrix, but iffy - Some might benefit from accessing external databases, others might gain benefits from environmental info from sensors in the area, and so on, but it could be argued they could function without it:
• Monofilament Whip: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action, retract instead of entangling on a glitch, +2 Accuracy
• Concealable Holster: Alter pattern and color in real time improving concealability.
• Smartgun System: DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus.
• Flash-Pak: Pak avoids directing flashes at subscribed characters, reducing  penalty
• Thermal Damping: Additional data from surroundings adds a DP bonus to Sneaking.
• Bug Scanner: Substitute device rating for Electronic Warfare skill.
• Vision Enhancement: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception visual skill tests.
• Spacial Recognizer: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on Perception audible skill tests.
• Maglock Passkey: +1 bonus to rating.
• Sequencer: +1 bonus to rating.
• Medkit: DP bonus in addition to the Limit bonus on First Aid skill tests, or by itself at ratingx2.
• Datajack: Adds Rating 1 Noise Reduction
• Skilljack: "The extra boost from the Matrix" increases the total max combined Skillsoft ratings from Ratingx2 to Ratingx3
• Skillwires: +1 Limit to skillsoft tests due to expanded memory cache.
• Gas Mask: Mask analyses air around you.
• Hazmat Suit: Suit analyses environment around you.
• White Noise Generator: Triple effective radius of effect.

Pretty much this entire list is stuff where the distributed computing angle works quite nicely.

• Monofilament Whip: New generation monowhips include nano scale control units that enable the device to make use of distributed processing to make calculations to avoid harming the user, becoming entangled, and to more effectively strike the target.
• Concealable Holster: Distributed processing allows for accurate, real-time corrections.
• Smartgun System: Distributed processing allows the system to correct for flaws in the weapon itself and to provide the user with an appropriate "lead" on the target; it also allows for the system to determine and display how far (as a vector) the last shot was off target, helping the user to correct their aim for last-minute deviations in their shooting.
• Flash-Pak: Processing resources are needed to determine how to spread the flash about.  Addtionally, running these through a wire is simply impractical.
• Thermal Damping: Additional data is already mentioned, but it may also process the precise alterations needed to truly blend your thermal signature using distributed resources.
• Bug Scanner: Uses distributed resources to run bottom up analysis to allow it to more accurately identify bugs, resulting in fewer false negatives when used by an unskilled individual.
• Vision Enhancement: Local processing uses a top down algorithm (the same general method as human perception uses) due to the speed advantages, while the distributed version uses bottom up processing and connects to remote databases of visual profiles that are constantly being updated and made more correct.
• Spacial Recognizer: Local processing uses a top down algorithm (the same general method as human perception uses) due to the speed advantages, while the distributed version uses bottom up processing and connects to remote databases of aural signatures that are constantly being updated and made more correct.
• Maglock Passkey: More effective, but less time-efficient algorithm used in distributed processing.
• Sequencer: More effective, but less time-efficient algorithm used in distributed processing.
• Medkit: More effective, but less time-efficient algorithm used in distributed processing.  Distributed processing allows advanced heuristic algorithms to be used for autonomous operation.
• Datajack: Matrix connection is used to analyze Noise patterns in the area in comparison to a baseline and correct for them.
• Skilljack: Some memory used from various devices in the surrounding area.
• Skillwires: Some memory used from various devices in the surrounding area.
• Gas Mask: Processing resources come from distributed computing, connects to databases to identify substances
• Hazmat Suit: Processing resources come from distributed computing, connects to databases to identify substances and hazards
• White Noise Generator: Other audio-generating devices in the area assist in the broadcasting of white noise.

C) Requires some kind of remote connection, such as radio or cable link between device and user, but not actual Matrix access - although the remote connection COULD be routed through the Matrix:
• Thermite Burning Bar: Ignite bar remotely.
• Defiance EX Shocker: Successful hit transmits target's health status.
• Yamaha Pulsar: Successful hit transmits target's health status.
• Parashield Dart Pistol & Rifle: Dart reports back to shooter about successful injection, and some basic medical info of target.
• Ares Antioch-2, ArmTech MGL-12, Aztechnology Striker, Onotari Interceptor, all Grenades, Rockets & Missiles: Use Wireless Link trigger even without DNI.
• Airburst Link: Must have Wireless mode on to function at all.
• Imaging Scope: Share camera feed with teammates.
• Smart Firing Platform: Control platform remotely.
• Detonator Cap: Set detonator's timer with a Simple Action, or detonate immediately as a Free Action.
• Data Tap: Self destruct remotely as Free Action.
• Sensor Tags: Monitor sensor feed in real time
• Jammer: Set jammer to not affect specific targets

You have a point with these ones - their bonuses should work if you somehow manage to be in a dead zone without a satlink - but in almost all cases, the actual connection you'd be using would be wireless still, and all wireless connections are Matrix connections unless you're in a dead zone without a satlink.

D) Assuming inductive charging at range even works, requires being in an area with wireless signals, but the devices are not actually using them to communicate, just siphoning power, and as such they shouldn't be vulnerable to hacking:
• Shock Gloves: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Stun Baton: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Fichetti Pain Inducer: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Riot Shield: Slowly recharge via induction.
• Tag Eraser: Slowly recharge via induction.

Given that they're getting their charge from other wireless devices, it may well be that it's actually using the same hardware to charge as it does for its wireless transceiver (which, from a certain perspective, would actually be kind of awesome and help explain why battery life isn't a concern for most stuff).  A little strange, but not strictly nonsensical.

E) Requires DNI to work, but not remote connection - most of these are "operates faster because commanding with your mind is faster than doing it with your meat hands".:
• Forearm Snap-Blades: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Extendable Baton: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Telescoping Staff: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Bipod/Tripod: Free Action to activate/stow instead of Simple/Complex Action.
• Gyro-Mount: Free Action to Quick Release instead of a Complex Action.
• Hidden Arm Slide: Free Action to ready weapon.
• Electrochromic Clothing:  Free Action to alter color instead of Simple Action.
• Chemical Seal: Free Action to activate instead of Complex Action.
• Fingertip Compartment: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex.
• Internal Air Tank: Activating/Deactivating tank is Free instead of Simple, tank reports current air level.
• Smuggling Compartment, small & large: Accessing compartment is a Simple Action rather than Complex.
• Cyberarm Gyromount: Free Action to activate instead of Simple Action.
• Cyber Holster: Free Action to ready weapon instead of Simple Action.
• Reaction Enhancers: Allows stacking with Wired Reflexes.
• Wired Reflexes: Allows stacking with Reaction Enhancers.

Yeah, these are some of the truly odd ones - but again, in many cases, a wired connection would be impractical and a wireless connection is automatically a Matrix connection.

F) Shouldn't require ANY connection to ANYTHING outside the devices to work. These should work by means as simple as pressing buttons. Seriously.:
• Fichetti Tiffani Needler: Change color of gun as a Simple Action. (Apparently you can't change the color without it)
• Gecko Gloves: Shut off stickiness wirelessly.

The Needler seems like it would need a decently complex interface, and so far as the gloves go you really wouldn't want the risk of them accidentally turning off because something brushed the switch mid-climb.

G) The "Wait, what?" category. I'll elaborate on each one:

• Silencer/Suppressor: Built in microphone can detect if someone reacts to the sound of the silenced weapon.

So you have a microphone, and presumably some system that can figure out from the varying sounds around you if someone noticed you firing the silenced shot. Despite silenced shots not actually being silent, most are actually pretty freaking loud, just not quite as loud as they would be without the silencer. Okay. Why does this thing need to connect to the Matrix before it can alert you to the incoming opponents?

• Laser Sight: +1 DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus

It's a laser. It makes a dot on the target. The bullet goes where the red dot grows. If it did any kind of target prediction or tracking, it'd be a Smartlink, not a Laser Sight.

• Periscope: Reduce the DP penalty for shooting around corners to -2

This is more a clear mistake than anything else - the listed Wireless Bonus is exactly the same as the regular non-wireless bonus. You use the periscope without the Matrix, it sets the penalty to -2. You use it with the Matrix, and... it sets the penalty to -2.

• Hydraulic Jacks: +1 DP bonus in addition to Limit bonus.

So the Matrix makes my legs jump even harder? Wait, did my name change to Neo or Morpheus now?

• Trauma Patch: Patient stabilizes automatically instead of having to make a test.

How? What? I don't even...

• Silencer/Suppressor: Built in microphone can detect if someone reacts to the sound of the silenced weapon.

Presumably a pretty serious amount of processing would be required to go from audio information to an actual determination of whether or not someone is reacting to it.

• Laser Sight: +1 DP bonus in addition to the normal Accuracy bonus

Adjustments made for range and imperfections of the weapon, perhaps?

• Periscope: Reduce the DP penalty for shooting around corners to -2

On the errata list, from what I understand.

• Hydraulic Jacks: +1 DP bonus in addition to Limit bonus.

Assuming there's more precise control than straight up-and-down, it could in theory alter the specific operation to optimize it for your stance, weight distribution, and so on.  Possibly.  Maybe.

• Trauma Patch: Patient stabilizes automatically instead of having to make a test.

Nanotech needed to explain this on, but if there is nanotech in the patch it would possibly be using the distributed processing resources to diagnose the injury and better treat it.

So there ARE explanations for a lot of them.

[Sichr]

What seems strange to me is concealement/stealth gear that needs to be wifi transmiting to help you stay hidden. A bit contraproductive IMO.

[RHat]

What seems strange to me is concealement/stealth gear that needs to be wifi transmiting to help you stay hidden. A bit contraproductive IMO.

It doesn't need to - it just does a better job of it, and thus gives you good cause to get the decker to help you run silent.  Mechanics that encourage cooperation can be a pretty good thing.

[Sichr]

Nope. Carrotstick. Infiltrator inside target facility, maintaining radio silence, needs wifi to lower his thermo signature. How long it takes to discover active node inside perimeter? This depends on how matrix operates, well under SRA Scan and TI works pretty quick.

[RHat]

Yes, but those require active action, not automatic.  And the basic function still exists offline.

Also, at what point does "not getting the carrot" cease to be something that can be thought of as a stick?